Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: mac_paolo on July 16, 2012, 10:03:41 am
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Before leaving for a trip I decided to test my new backup camera in order to fine the best default settings.
Because of the suboptimal Raw support under Lightroom and as some camera automatisms will restrict the use of the Raw format, I decided to test the real gain from sRGB to AdobeRGB.
The results left me with mixed feelings. I immediately ran over highly saturated colors (especially reds) to compare the two, but soon after realized a huge difference... in dynamic range.
Both the photos have been taken with DR 200% setting (= ISO 200). Everything the same and default, except for color space. Shot in Manual mode. Film simulation: Velvia (to boost saturated colors).
Serial number 21L****, firmware 1.02. Should be fixed sensor (no orbs).
Original shot:
(http://f.cl.ly/items/0Y2h0W1m1a2c0J374107/120716%20-%20X10%20-%200250.jpg)
Light tones:
(http://f.cl.ly/items/171p2c3L1d1m1A3D0Z2Z/Screenshot%20%202012-07-16%20at%2015.29.52.png)
Dark tones:
(http://f.cl.ly/items/0U0L2d0t1d1q03083j21/Screenshot%20%202012-07-16%20at%2015.30.33.png)
To me it's obvious how the sRGB version has much more dynamic range within. Where AdobeRGB is almost blown out, detail in sRGB is still present. Same for the shadows: AdobeRGB almost completely black while in sRGB version we still have visible detail.
I shot as Raw+JPG. The Raw files are almost identical, so no exposure shift between the two.
What do you think about it? :)
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I'd be interested in seeing the histograms from the 2 examples.
I've been impressed with the Xpro-1 with how much dynamic range I can pull from the OOC jpegs using Adobe RGB.
The raw files have even more.
-rasterdogs
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I'd like to see it with that test re-run with the "Velvia boost" turned off. Is there a "Neutral" setting? As these are in camera processed JPEGs your example doesn't prove that sRGB has greater dynamic range but that Fuji's sRGB and Adobe RGB(1998) JPEG processing algorithms are different.
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Ok, this may be the last test before leaving, so here they are. Still Manual but this time Provia Film (= Std. color rendition in Fuji language).
To tell the truth I also tried Astia (= smooth rendition for portraits, but the result is almost the same).
Provia
Original:
(http://cl.ly/0h1B3Y3f1z0R41022q2i/120716%20-%20X10%20-%200269.jpg)
Highlights:
(http://f.cl.ly/items/0W2R1H3u242r0X3g0m2K/Provia%20-%20highlights.png)
Shadows:
(http://f.cl.ly/items/1U3J1R221G0D1M1x0q2k/Provia%20-%20shadows.png)
As you can see the AdobeRGB version is a bit OOF on the lit building. What I was looking for is the dynamic range and still it's better on sRGB color space here.
I'll definitely set the camera as sRGB for the JPG. I need to set it right as in EXR mode (my best half's favorite), Raw is forbidden :-\
Did anyone else find the same results?
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One impression I have taken away from your samples: Stay away from the X10 , and that is a shame.
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One impression I have taken away from your samples: Stay away from the X10 , and that is a shame.
Ellis, I paid almost 450€. I'm sorry but I really have to use it! Except for this specif issue (which could be fixed by a firmware upgrade), it's a very nice compact camera.
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i bought an x10 early this year based on some preliminary reviews - and returned it. it's a lovely camera except for one thing - the image quality is crap. the DP review evaluation - which took them months to finalize was that it's a great 6 megapixel camera with good dynamic range
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i bought an x10 early this year based on some preliminary reviews - and returned it. it's a lovely camera except for one thing - the image quality is crap. the DP review evaluation - which took them months to finalize was that it's a great 6 megapixel camera with good dynamic range
I didn't find anything else in tha same price range with similar characteristics/aesthetics.
Anyhow, I have 30 days to eventually return it to Amazon, just in case. :)
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One impression I have taken away from your samples: Stay away from the X10 , and that is a shame.
Better to stay away from filters if you intend to continue using the camera. Using the filters spoils any attempt at testing it Sorry your conclusions are meaningless.
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i bought an x10 early this year based on some preliminary reviews - and returned it. it's a lovely camera except for one thing - the image quality is crap.
I did the same after being highly disappointed with the image quality and the many "hoops" you had to learn in the settings in oder to achieve an acceptable file. Too bad, the concept is good but the delivery isn't.
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Better to stay away from filters if you intend to continue using the camera. Using the filters spoils any attempt at testing it Sorry your conclusions are meaningless.
Which filters are you referring to? Do you mean different film simulations? It's exactly like setting any Picture Control on Nikon cameras: you have to take one.
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Picture control on Nikon cameras can be set to neutral. It isn't completely neutral but a good starting place. The bottom line is you can't use a film simulation, or anything similar, and then complain about sRGB and Adobe RGB being different. The simulations skewer the colours and dynamic range.
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Picture control on Nikon cameras can be set to neutral. It isn't completely neutral but a good starting place. The bottom line is you can't use a film simulation, or anything similar, and then complain about sRGB and Adobe RGB being different. The simulations skewer the colours and dynamic range.
What does neutral mean to you? Even Nikon's neutral setting (I'm a Nikon shooter BTW) is far from being neutral, not in color nor in tone response. It's just less punchy than standard, that's it. Adobe standard with CC24 calibration could be better considered somewhat standard, IMHO.
In Fuji's terms, standard (= Provia) is the default case. Astia film simulation has less contrast, but still not "neutral".
Having said that, it's not a sRGB vs AdobeRGB thread. Never said that nor I'm interested in starting one.
I'm trying to discuss with those who are interested in the strange difference of DR with Fujifilm X10 renditions for the two color spaces. I didn't complain either, I just find it to be quite "interesting" as I would have expected the opposite. It's a nice backup/portable camera. Nothing more.
FWIW, my best half is taking nice pictures with it, and I have seen a lot of compact cameras.
Are you really interested in the discussion over the X10? :)
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I can fully appreciate the bafflement with the screwed up image quality you are getting with the X10. I sold mine after four weeks of trying to get to the bottom of why I couldn't get anything decent from what should in theory be the 'best' settings (like RAW and Adobe RGB), but if I set the camera to 'auto' and 'jpeg' I'd get a stunning, but not very workable, image. I missed a big fat file that I could adjust they way I wanted it, but the X10 has other ideas as to what is good for you. :(
Steve
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Quote mac paolo
I decided to test the real gain from sRGB to AdobeRGB.
The results left me with mixed feelings. I immediately ran over highly saturated colors (especially reds) to compare the two, but soon after realized a huge difference... in dynamic range.
Unquote
Quote
Having said that, it's not a sRGB vs AdobeRGB thread. Never said that nor I'm interested in starting one.
Unquote
I don't know anything about the X10 My contention was - and other posters - your testing was pointless. :)
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I don't know anything about the X10 My contention was - and other posters - your testing was pointless. :)
Dear Stamper, if you would have read the whole post instead of specific lines, you would have understood I was referring to the sRGB/AdobeRGB rendition for the X10, not the color space philosophy on its own. I even wrote several times how strange is the better dynamic range for the sRGB over the AdobeRGB one.
Never mind, you're the first and hopefully the only one who didn't catch that. My test isn't pointless. Maybe your posts are?
So, you don't have the X10 nor you are interested in this very camera.
What's your point? ::)
Good day.
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Having read your problems with the camera, and others, I am unlikely to get one? I was, and others, were trying to point out your tests were meaningless and hopefully you wouldn't spend any more time going down that road. Trying to help. Unfortunately from the tone of you replies you seem not to like being given advice that is contrary to your thinking? A pity. Hopefully you can now purchase a camera that you can understand how it works. :)
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Having read your problems with the camera, and others, I am unlikely to get one? I was, and others, were trying to point out your tests were meaningless and hopefully you wouldn't spend any more time going down that road. Trying to help. Unfortunately from the tone of you replies you seem not to like being given advice that is contrary to your thinking? A pity. Hopefully you can now purchase a camera that you can understand how it works. :)
"and others, were trying to point out your tests were meaningless"? Who exactly? Names?
All I read is I was asked to retake similar pictures without Velvia/Vivid settings as it may alter DR greatly. And I did that. Then your post about Nikon Neutral PC being neutral, which is so wrong (again, I'm a Nikon shooter).
Maybe you're not everyone. Maybe my test wasn't meaningless (at least for people other than you). Maybe you should step down a bit, you know, you sound a bit too arrogant. I'm not a child anymore and I'm open to advices, as always.
I know how do cameras work and how to buy them. Beside that, this aspect was still undocumented.
Thanks anyway.
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< Picture control on Nikon cameras can be set to neutral. It isn't completely neutral but a good starting place. >
That is what I stated earlier on
< I'd like to see it with that test re-run with the "Velvia boost" turned off. Is there a "Neutral" setting? >
That is what Ellis also stated.
You need to think through what was suggested to you? :-[
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< Picture control on Nikon cameras can be set to neutral. It isn't completely neutral but a good starting place. >
That is what I stated earlier on
< I'd like to see it with that test re-run with the "Velvia boost" turned off. Is there a "Neutral" setting? >
That is what Ellis also stated.
You need to think through what was suggested to you? :-[
So, the "others" you mentioned is Ellis alone? Where did Ellis tell this whole test is meaningless? I can't find it.
I promptly tested with both Provia (standard) and Astia (neutral). I posted Provia results because Astia's where basically in the same directions as the other ones. Did you read that before posting?
I really can't manage to find useful your sarcastic tone. I'm running out of patience and can't understand why you keep posting here.
My test is helpful for those who are trying to decide whether to set the camera on sRGB or AdobeRGB.
My answer is definitely sRGB if you wish to preserve dynamic range.
I wouldn't even bother with JPG settings, but being a compact camera and as the Raw support under Lightroom is suboptimal, JPG on camera has the best quality overall.
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My answer is definitely sRGB if you wish to preserve dynamic range.
But only with this camera. I don't see sRGB ever having greater dynamic range with other cameras. And you'll be clipping colors (and there are lots of them in the real world ) that are outside the gamut of sRGB.
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... But only with this camera...
And that is the OP point and we got it.
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And that is the OP point and we got it.
Exactly. Said too many times so far. :)
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You stated earlier in a post that this wasn't.
>Having said that, it's not a sRGB vs AdobeRGB thread. Never said that nor I'm interested in starting one.<
Yet you state
>My answer is definitely sRGB if you wish to preserve dynamic range.<
Contradiction?
Calling me arrogant and sarcastic doesn't help? It only reflects your own attitudes. I think you are smarting from buying a camera that doesn't live up to your expectations and that at least three posters have told you that. I will leave the last word to yourself. ;D
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Stamper, are you serious?!? Can't you really catch it or are you just trying to troll around?
This is going to be my last reply to you: I'll make it super easy… again, you're the only one who didn't catch it so far. This is a sum of wrote we already wrote before.
- It's not a thread about color spaces theory.
- it's a thread about Fujifilm rendition of jpegs for certain color spaces.
- For this specific camera, sRGB settings will bring better result. It's not a general statement.
- I bought this camera before doing this test.
- This characteristic was undocumented before that.
- I'm satisfied with this behavior. In any case I'm shooting Raw+JPG.
- Some members told they were unsatisfied with the X10 while much more told they are. Not strictly here. My last word is: I'll decide based on my conclusions while respecting anyone's thoughts.
Another sRGB vs AdobeRGB quote and I'll be forced to ignore you. Good day.
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Hi mac_paolo,
As a owner of a Fuji X10 I wanted to say thanks for posting your test samples they have be very informative. Personally I was ignore stamper as a argumentative old bugger whose got nothing better do to than piss you and me off
Cheers
Simon
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If you find the test examples very informative then you have a lot to learn? :) They only reinforced the OP's thinking and weren't in anyway exhaustive. It wasn't only me arguing against them. ;) BTW how did I manage to piss you off? This is your first post in the thread. ???
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I repeated the test by changing the strategy.
Shot another high contrast scene and produced both the version from the Raw conversion feature in the camera itself, so exactly the same shot.
Loading both the versions in Lightroom you can clearly see the histogram expanding on the sides for the AdobeRGB version, which means more contrast, which translates in less detail for shadows and highlights.
To mitigate what I wrote on the first post, you can actually set a softer settings for the highlight recovery when working with AdobeRGB and a step (or two) above setting for the sRGB version.
Anyway the first assumption is valid. AdobeRGB = less dynamic range.