Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: adrjork on July 04, 2012, 12:08:24 pm
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Hi guys,
I need to make a 4K movie as indie, thus optimizing the cost. But I need clear images (many close-ups) with low light and shallow deep of field. So I need for your advices.
I'd like to shoot 4K-RAW for color-grading in post, and no DSLR can do this, so I think that the cheapest solutions are Sony NEX-FS700 or Red-Scarlet.
-1st question: which is better for image quality?
-2nd question: Red's accessories are very expensive, so do you think the following NEX set could be cheapest?
FS700: -/+ 9000 €
3 Sony Alpha lenses & adaptor: -/+ 4000 €
Gemini RAW: -/+ 9000 €
Cheap rig & manual dolly & steady: -/+ 2000 €
TOT: -/+ 24000 €
Obviously I need a workstation to do editing and color-grading. Now, I know that 4K-RAW@24p flow is 1883MB/sec!
-3rd question: could the following Apple option sufficient? Apple Mac-Pro; i7; 32GB-ram; Nvidia Quadro 4800? (Or an iMac27 16GB-ram 2GB-graphics would be enough?)
Anyway it remains the storage problem:
-4th question: working with internal sata drives or with external storage?
-5th question: if external storage, thunderbolt or fibre channel? (and if fibre, which do you advice me? and which PCI-card?)
-6th question: do you think that a windows-pc could be a cheapest solution? (even if no Red-based?)
Finally I don't know which is the cheapest solution: NEX-FS700 + 4K-RAW-workstation -OR- Red-Scarlet equipment + Red-based-workstation?
Thanks a lot for your help.
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the sony fs700 is only 1080p (less than 2k) at the moment- the 4k ability will be unlocked with a future upgrade.
why are you keen on 4k? everything you see in all the movies is 2k. 4k is a future format but is probably 5 years away before anyone can project this in most cinemas.
i personally think file depth and colour information in the footage is the most important aspects of a camera. thats why most of the TV advertisements and feature films get shot with a 2k alexa.
paul
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Because I'll try to realize a film planning the shooting for the next 10 or 12 years. So, I can image that in 10 years also 4K will be "old", but probably not too much old comparising with full-hd or 2K. That's why I try to setup a 4K-RAW equipment.
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Hi guys,
I need to make a 4K movie as indie, thus optimizing the cost.
My personal opinion, having gone down this road before, is NOT to invest in camera gear. You are much better off renting camera and sound gear than buying it. This is especially true of higher end gear. Most first-time filmmakers (including me) spent most of their money on the camera, and forgot sound.
But if you've made up your mind:
I'd like to shoot 4K-RAW for color-grading in post, and no DSLR can do this, so I think that the cheapest solutions are Sony NEX-FS700 or Red-Scarlet.
-1st question: which is better for image quality?
The cheapest solution right now is the Point Grey 4K camera, but it has the disadvantage of having a small sensor, so shallow depth of field and low light is tough to get. But the camera is only $1,000 or so!
The FS700 does not shoot 4K, and by the time Sony updates firmware (considering how they goofed up with the F3 and S-Log/4:4:4), a lot of things might have changed - so it would be an unwise investment.
That leaves you with the Scarlet -
R3D is NOT true RAW in the still camera sense. But for an indie film I think it is good enough. Ryan Koo of nofilmschool.com is going down a similar path, so you could look into his progress.
-2nd question: Red's accessories are very expensive, so do you think the following NEX set could be cheapest?
FS700: -/+ 9000 €
3 Sony Alpha lenses & adaptor: -/+ 4000 €
Gemini RAW: -/+ 9000 €
Cheap rig & manual dolly & steady: -/+ 2000 €
TOT: -/+ 24000 €
You have left out sound recording completely. The alpha lenses are not the best. I suggest you read Alistair Chapman's blog on the FS700 for some great advice.
Obviously I need a workstation to do editing and color-grading. Now, I know that 4K-RAW@24p flow is 1883MB/sec!
-3rd question: could the following Apple option sufficient? Apple Mac-Pro; i7; 32GB-ram; Nvidia Quadro 4800? (Or an iMac27 16GB-ram 2GB-graphics would be enough?)
If you're shooting R3D and want to edit and grade native, you need the Red Rocket. You'll need to invest in a good 4K monitor for critical color grading - guess how much that costs?
Anyway it remains the storage problem:
-4th question: working with internal sata drives or with external storage?
External storage. Believe it or not, storage is probably your cheapest problem!
-5th question: if external storage, thunderbolt or fibre channel? (and if fibre, which do you advice me? and which PCI-card?)
Fiber channel is if you're using a NAS or SAN system, or even a bunch of network RAIDs - are you planning on heavy VFX? Either way, you need to figure out if real-time thorough-put is key to your workflow. You could always use proxies for fast work on a smaller spec'd system.
-6th question: do you think that a windows-pc could be a cheapest solution? (even if no Red-based?)
Yes, I will recommend a Windows PC over a mac for anything!
For what it's worth, here's my advice:
Spend a lot of time on your script and actors. Forget the gear. Shoot HD or 2K - it's good enough. Spend half your money on sound. Use the rest for lighting, set, costumes, makeup and props. Rent your gear along with your cameraman (same with sound). Keep it simple. Focus on your story. Save money for festivals and marketing. Do great.
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First off, the "cheapest" solution is not always the "best" solution ... especially if you find out the cheaper system/equipment doesn't meet your expectations and you end-up selling it at a BIG LOSS, only to replace it with what you initially thought was an "expensive" solution. With that said, whether you are considering a Sony FS700 or a RED Scarlet or a Canon EOS C300 or C500, or even a DSLR like the new Canon EOS-1D C or the Nikon D800, they all are capable of creating very nice pictures and compelling content ... in the right hands. Do you need 4K for an indie film-out? The short answer is, No, not really. However, 4K is nice for "future-proofing" your content and for re-positioning a shot. However a 4K workflow requires a demanding post production system. For instance 4K monitors are just starting to hit the market. I saw them at NAB. They are fantastic! But, they are also VERY EXPENSIVE. (One of the less expensive ones that I saw was from Eizo, and it was over $30,000.00!) But, once you have seen real 4K on a real 4K monitor, (and trust me, few people have), you will soon come to realize why 4K will eventually replace HD. As a side-note, RED also showed a 4K laser projector at NAB that will be shipping this year at a price of around $10,000! I saw 4K content projected on it, and it was AMAZING.
I am somewhat prejudiced since I primarily shoot with a RED Scarlet (and also with a 5DII from time-to-time). I can tell you that 4K footage from the Scarlet using the REDCODE RAW at between 5:1 to 8:1 compression is a killer. With RED you get their free first-light software, RCX PRO, and native RED footage is fairly easy to edit in Premiere Pro with an appropriate Nvidia Cuda card (you don't need a RED Rocket card, but it would help if you do a lot of transcoding). But, a decent raid ... something like a pair G-Tech ES Pro's-w-an ATTO contoller card is also going to be a necessity. Without getting into a MAC vs. PC discussion, while both boxes can get the job done for you (I have both) you can certainly build a KICK-ASS PC for a lot less than what a new MAC will cost. And, you will have a lot more choices as far as processors and graphics cards with a PC. As to lenses, RED has lens mounts for PL, (RED has their own lenses and they are quite good ... but again not cheap), Canon EOS, Leica M and soon for Nikon lenses. (I actually use a wide assortment of vintage Contax Zeiss, Zeiss ZF, and Nikon lenses with adapters.) As to camera media or storage, RED uses their own proprietary SSD's for storage and they are VERY EXPENSIVE!
RED cameras are far from perfect. Let's face it, they are basically mini-computers with lenses. There are issues with black-shading that must be done from time-to-time to avoid sensor glitches; their latest camera firmware has bugs (I haven't upgraded yet ... but RED is quite good about updating their software/firmware and issuing patches and fixes); and the on-board audio capabilities of the Epic and Scarlet cameras are really not ready for prime time (if you are serious about audio, you will have to record dual audio and sync the audio up in post ... not a big deal really .... but certainly not good for run-n-gun applications).
I would seriously evaluate your needs and your budget. I would carefully read the posts on RED USER, (and other sites that are dedicated to whatever other camera(s) you might be interested in), and get a feel for what is both good and bad, and what works and what doesn't work. Then when you have narrowed it down, I would rent the cameras you are interested in before you buy, in order to determine the best choice for you.
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My 1st reaction was why 4k? But you say you'll be shooting for 10 years, so why not?
At the present time, RED is probably your best option. It's RAW files are compact and you won't be doing finishing post for at least a few years. By then, you'll be able to zip through those RAW files pretty easily without a red rocket.
You might try a used RED 1mx to save money. I'm not a big fan of it's color reproduction, but it's serviceable.
The lenses will be your biggest expense I would think.
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THX a lot for your answers!
So... Scarlet! I don't know Red system very well, so here my questions...
1. I agree: Scarlet accessories are very expensive, and I suppose that some of those are needful, while others could be replaced with non-Red accessories, is it so? If so, what accessories are absolutely needed? (DSMC Power Pack? DMSC Side Handle?)
2. Could it be a cheaper solution Scarlet + Gemini RAW + Canon Lenses + cheap rig? I've this doubt because (more or less) Gemini RAW will cost 10.000$, that is exactly the same of Red Media Management collection + Red Touch 5"!
3. Instead the rail components are undoubtedly expensive! So, in your opinion, which is the cheaper/useful configuration based on Scarlet? Perhaps the following?
-Scarlet AL Canon mount (-/+) 10.000 €
-Red Media Management Collection (-/+) 8.000 €
-DMSC Power Pack (-/+) 500 €
-Red Touch 5" (-/+) 1.500 €
-DSMC Side Handle??? (-/+) 1.000 €
-Canon EF Lenses (-/+) 4.000 € (3 lenses)
-Cheap rig/shoulder/dolly (-/+) 1.000 €
TOT. (-/+) 26.000 €
Something to change in your opinion?
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The workstation... a on-line shop advice me the following configuration:
-Apple Mac Pro i7; 32GD-ram
-Nvidia Quadro 4000
-4a G-SPEED eS Pro + 2x ATTO 680 cards (OR Dulce Systems 32TB ProRXd RAID)
TOT. (-/+) 18.000 €
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The monitors... I really don't know: could be possible in your opinion to use a 2K monitor for the 4K film preview? Obviously reducing the dimension! Is it so horrendous to think simply a pair of Apple 27" displays (1st for editing and 2nd for preview)?
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1. I would start with RED's Scarlet-X Canon Mont Collection: It consists of a Scarlet-X brain-w-Canon aluminum mount and side SSD, a DSMC side handle, a RED touch 5" LCD monitor/screen, 2 REDVOLT batteries, 1 REDMAG 64 GB SSD, 1 REDSTATION REDMAG reader, and a DSMC travel charger for $16,156.00. With that basic package you are ready to shoot. All you need are some Canon EOS lenses or some used Contax Zeiss or Zeiss ZF or even Nikon lenses with the appropriate adapter(s). If you check on REDUSER you can find "used" Scarlet packages for considerably less. They won't have the same warranty, but RED has an ownership transfer scheme where the cameras are inspected by RED (for a fee) and then you get a 90 warranty from RED. There are also plenty of third party accessories available from such companies as Wooden Camera, View Factor and Innocinema. If you wish to use non-RED batteries, there are adapter plates available that allow you to use V mount batteries or AB mount batteries. Many people use V mount batteries from Global Media Pro, which are quite reasonable.
2. I would not buy a third party recorder at the moment. There are several credible indications that RED is partnering with a major third party recorder manufacturer and it will soon offer its own add-on recorder. In all likelihood such a recorder will allow the camera to simultaneously record a 2K ProRes or a DNxHD file. This would allow RED to better compete with the Arri Alexa in the TV market, where 2K is king and quick editing solutions are necessary. It was only recently that RED's firmware was updated to allow a full raster 2K HD signal out of the camera, so that a clean HD feed could be recorded. However, if you really had to to have a third party recorder NOW, then I would look at the Pix 240 or the AJA Ki Pro mini.
3. I am sorry, but I would not consider a Mac at this time. Maybe when (and if) Apple finally updates its Mac Pros. You can build your own PC with a lot more power and functionality for a lot less. If you are not inclined to build your own, you can check out third party custom manufacturers, such as Puget Systems (http://www.pugetsystems.com/genesis.php) and they can design a system that will eat your Mac Pro for lunch. Alternatively, RED has just partnered with HP to offer a custom HP Z820 workstation-w-a Red Rocket card, SSD readers, loaded -w-Adobe Premiere Pro for about $10,000.00. Actually, quite a bargain.
4. For a raid, there a lot of choices. If you go with G Tech, you should know that they will soon be offering their ES Pro-w-4 TB drives. I just found that out last week when I spoke to a G Tech rep. That would give you 32TB in 2 enclosures. All you would need is one Atto R680 controller card..
5. 4K monitors are not readily available. The ones that are available cost as much as car or a small house in some parts of the world. Flanders Scientific makes quite good 2K editing monitors. There are solutions that then allow you to use a 50" consumer plasma as a client or preview monitor, provided it is properly calibrated.
6. Finally, if you will be shooting in the field, you have to be able to off-load your SSD's. You will need a laptop and external storage to transfer the RED files. I use a Dell laptop with esata and USB 3 connections to a bus powered raid from OWC.
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Very detailed help! THX A LOT Mr. ftbt! And thx all the others!
Just the last pair of midnight doubts:
1. When I asked about Gemini RAW or KiPro Quad, the aim was to capture a real RAW signal to make a good color-grading in post. So do you tell me that REDCODE (that is a lossy video codec) gives anyway the possibility to manage the colors in post flawlessly?
If so...
2. Scarlet 4K redcode is 440 Mb/s -VS- Canon 1DC 4K MotionJPEG is 500 Mb/s. So why Scarlet? I can suppose that you will answer that redcode is much better than MotionJPEG, but my question is: Is it "SO" better? Or the two things are (more or less) equivalent? Do you think I could make a good color-grading job with the 1DC MotionJPEG?
(Because with 1DC you have all you need in the body: battery, monitor, card slot... so quite cheaper than the Scarlet Collection!)
So... To be Scarlet or not to be Scarlet?
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1. There is no way to "capture a real RAW signal" from a Scarlet. REDCODE RAW is processed in the camera as 16 bit 4:4:4. RED uses wavelet compression that they claim (and I can attest to that) is visually loss-less. (If the codec is good enough for the last installment of Pirates of the Caribbean, The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and Prometheus, it is certainly good enough for whatever indie project you may have in mind.) There is plenty of bit-depth for more color grading than you can even imagine.
2. As far as I know, the Canon's 4K is 8 bit 4:2:2
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There are a lot of broad based questions and a lot of well meaning people will share their experience, but without more specifics, i.e. your experience, the scope of the project, where you plan to go from this project, sound, visual effects and most of all your total budget, because camera, lenses and a workstation is just a start.
I've owned all the plastic cameras, from the original xl1 all the way to panasonics, canons, nikons, and now two red ones and one scarlet.
For my work I use the RED One's 90% of the time, the FS100 5% of the time, the 5d2 3% of the time (as a quick car mount of crash cam) and the Scarlet less than 2 % of the time.
The scarlet is a good deal on price but comes with some issues.
First it is still a work in progress as yesterday was the first time you could review sound through the camera after shooting.
The second issue with the scarlet is the sound jacks, those mini plugs like you see on an ipod. They pop and crackle and there are some workarounds (usually gaffer tape), but they still are extremely unreliable.
The next huge issue with the scarlet is the very glossy screen. Hood or not, if your face receives light all you will see is your reflection and remember unlike a still camera, your going to be moving whether on sticks, hand held, dolly etc. so sooner or later you'll be in the middle of a take and not be able to see anything.
The next issue of the scarlet is the menu setup, mostly touch screen, (which means you constantly have to removed the monitor hood, are partially through the camera's remote handle.
Also the scarlet's fan runs all the time. You can pull it down to 20% or so but if your close up and running sound you'll hear it.
The one real upside of the scarlet is the file (though it uses the same mx sensor as the RED One), because it's smoother and has less noise. Personally I'm not enamored with the Scarlet file, because I think it's kind of flat and video like no matter what we do in post, but it does make an excellent beauty camera for faces.
As far as weight the Scarlet is 5 something lbs, the RED One with small Nikon Lenses is 8 lbs, so the weight is not that much different just the form factor.
I'll admit I'm prejudice because I know the Red One's inside and out and find them stable and reliable, where the Scarlet is still going through it's firmware beta tests and I don't and won't ever use it as an A cam.
NOW, I am sure RED will get it up to speed because they don't seem to ever give up and as crazy as their buy/sell/system is they do stand behind their product.
Personally, not knowing exactly what your shooting, I'd go with a 5d2 some zeiss glass and learn from there. It shoot a pretty nice file, is very easy to use of any of the combo cams and honestly in a few years you'll probably be changing out cameras anyway.
Now if anyone asked me to recommend any camera I'd just say go with the original Red One with the mx sensor because I think those cameras will last a very long time. So far (knock on wood) we've run ours for over a year arouind the world twice, in every condition you can think of, and never had a breakdown.
I wish you the best of luck as you are going down a new road and I applaud you for your willingness.
IMO
BC
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Well guys... congratulations for your work and your experiences! That's amazing!
More specifics about my project... that's right. The project is a feature film, 2h30'. The film's release is scheduled for 2025, because filming will last more or less 10 years. This is the reason for 4K: in 2025 I suppose that Full-HD will be seen as SD today! Yes, probably also 4K will be "old" in that time, but surely youger then HD or 2K. Scarlet probably will mount Dragon in a year and we'll have 4K at 48 fps (and this is the format of The Hobbit!)
Now... I perfectly know that I'm not a great film maker, but I simply try to do my best to obtain a good visual result for a visually decent future film.
The reasons that lead me to do this 10-years-film are very personal, in fact I can describe to you the subject as A WOMAN GETS OLDER IN HER HOUSE. The (non)actress is now 69 y.o. and in 2025 she will be 83 y.o. Visually my models are Sokurov (Mother and Son; Elegy of a Voyage), Tarr (Satantango), Bartas (The House), so my idea for the film is to join 61 "pictures", 2/3min. long (and a bit static) "poetical" takes without dialogues, but only ambient noises. Nevertheless, every "picture" has its own music soundtrack: 61 piano pieces (the duration of each take corresponds to the duration of its own track).
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Now... I'm absolutely alone in this project, and all the budget comes directly from my bank account :(. That means I haven't money to buy many cams or to buy a 5D2 to make experiences and then a different camera to shoot in 4K. I have no choice: beginning directly with the "definitive" cam and trying to learn quickly ;). I know it's folly, I know that I have no experiences about filming (I mainly come from audio world and this was born as a musical project!) but I have to do it... And that's it ;).
After all I think that I will wait for Scarlet-Dragon for 4K-48 fps, but with the collection/configuration advised by Mr. ftbt.
I honestly remain in doubt about giving up the Mac because I use Logic and I love OSX. I know that now PC are faster, but perhaps THIS (http://www.cubix.com/content/gpu-xpander-0) could be a good solution.
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About software... I need mainly to edit (no particular effect) and to do color grading. So, which workflow for 4K redcode? I used FinalCut Pro, but it can't edit in 4K. So remain:
1. Adobe CS6 with SpeedGrade
2. Autodesk Smoke 2013 (all-in-one)
3. Blackmagic DaVinci Resolve (color grading only)
I'd like so much to work with DaVinci (sorry but... was the software used by Sokurov for Russian Ark ;)) but when I used FCP I was accustomed to export clips to the other sw of the Studio suite without re-encoding. I suppose that CS6 will do the same from Premiere to SpeedGrade, but which is the trick to use DaVinci without re-encoding? Can I do this from Premiere to DaVinci? (because If I'm right Smoke 2013 and DaVinci can't run together! Dammit!)
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Guys, thanks a lot for your help!
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P.S. Could you tell me if Scarlet has a timecode plug (or something similar) to control the timecode of an external audio device? (Sound Devices 702T.)
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The project is a feature film, 2h30'. The film's release is scheduled for 2025, because filming will last more or less 10 years. This is the reason for 4K:
...beginning directly with the "definitive" cam and trying to learn quickly ...
I honestly remain in doubt about giving up the Mac because I use Logic and I love OSX.
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I'm going to take you seriously (though I don't know why) - shoot on film. Else, invest in a Blackmagic Cinema camera for its DNG file.
Think about this: by 2025, the red camera might be out of business and software might no longer support R3d. Ditto for a mac. But film might be dead by then, too. So, essentially, you're between a rock and hard place. What happens if your camera malfunctions and can't be fixed in 2020? What if you can't find new batteries? What if the SSD format undergoes a radical change and you can no longer find connector ports or adapters? What if the current crop of software goes out of business?
There is no such thing as a 'definitive' camera, even for your project.
However, for the sake of your sanity, I wish you all the best.
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Thank you Mr. Sareesh Sudhakaran! You are right! And for the sake of my sanity (ahahah...) I assume the survival instinct of my machines ;) (I still work with Logic and AfterEffects on a 8 y.o. PowerMac ;)).
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Just last questions about Scarlet:
1. Using a DSLR as a videocam some people say it's much better to use stabilized lenses because normally a DSLR lacks this feature. Also with Scarlet is it better to use stabilized lenses to do videos?
2. Is it possible to mount Scarlet on a cheap rig (for example thecinecity.com) or Scarlet wants only its original rigs?
Thx
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I would seriously consider starting your project with the red 1 MX. You can shoot 4k at 48fps if you like right now, and it's the least expensive 4k professional option now.
I wouldn't use stabilized lenses for your movie, use a tripod instead.
The post workflow for adobe should be solved within a couple years, so don't worry about it. In the meantime, work out your post workflow so that you can be sure to sync with your original files in the future. (I'm thinking about file names, time code etc.). No need to edit in 4k. And keep re-backing up your back ups every couple years!
Good luck, and please invite me to the premiere!
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Oops, red one only does 30fps at 4k...3k at 48fps, and cropped. My bad.
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I also feel a R1 MX is your best option at this time.
The Hobbit being shot at 48 fps is primarily because it's 3D. For your film I'd prefer traditional 24 fps. And when needed you could shoot 30 fps for a bit of slomo, or windowed at even higher frame rates, & reduced resolution.
And while I wouldn't make a buisness decision based on a possibility, Jim Jannard has hinted that something is planned for the R1, & owners who let go of them may eventually regret doing so.
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I also think that the R1 would be the option in the OP's needs.
But I'd like to ad a few thughts if you don't mind.
Apparently, the OP is telling that he has some budget limitation and that he doesn't consider himself as an accomplished cineast to date. Then there is this long term project on 10 years.
What catch my attention, is that the motivation, or main concern, is a lot focussed on resolution, beting that hd or 2k would become the poor man's format within the time the movie would be acheived. Yes, it probably will,
and...so what?
So all the movies that are currently filmed in let's say Alexas, won't be projected anymore or displayed on teevees in 10 years because the norm would then be 4, 5, 6 or more Ks? Think content, probably not so much reso.
Maybe it would be interested for the OP to consider some investements within his budgets that are going to help a lot more the narrative and the content itself. Because in the end, I see a few dudes here who invested in Scarlets but didn't have any much more budget to hire good sound tech, lightnings, they put Canikon still glasses on it because they had them etc...and in the end they do cheap and average productions on 4ks that nobody wants. They better had invest in good lightning, good glasses, hire good sound guy, dollies, cranes etc...with a GH2 or a AF100.
I think, and it's very personal, that focusing on gear that will help the content will be always a better bet than the camera itself if budgets are limited. Then what's left after within the budget's limits will tell what camera is best naturaly. But the other way is IMO a worse calculation.
Good luck and my best for your project.
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Just last questions about Scarlet:
1. Using a DSLR as a videocam some people say it's much better to use stabilized lenses because normally a DSLR lacks this feature. Also with Scarlet is it better to use stabilized lenses to do videos?
2. Is it possible to mount Scarlet on a cheap rig (for example thecinecity.com) or Scarlet wants only its original rigs?
Thx
Stabilized lenses are a mixed blessing. They can be great for relatively static handheld work, but if your doing a lot of movement the stabilization can get confused, & cause the image to jump. The REDs suffers much less skew than lesser cameras, & you may find IS less of a concern, but it's still a great option to have in the bag.
I wouldn't cheap out on support gear though. By today's standards REDs are not lightweight cameras, especially all dressed up, & you don't want to overload cheap gear primarily designed for dSLRs. Stripped down an R1 can be shouldered with few add-ons, such a single 19mm rod with a pistol grip, a viewfinder, & a towel over your shoulder for padding, but this can get tiresome during long takes. You first need to determine how much your camera is going to weigh in it's different configurations, then buy appropriate support. In general you don't want your gear running at the outer limits of it's specs, so beefier is usually better.
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2. Autodesk Smoke 2013 (all-in-one)
There will be a new version of Smoke coming with enhanced timeline and lower price.
Smoke IMO is very powerfull because it's an all-in-one solution and the specs are very high-end.
I was about to take a Smoke training in a prestigious school in Madrid but here the motion marketplace collapsed and the possibilities to see the investment returned are very low at the moment and it will take years to recover.
The thing with Smoke is that this is a serious software to learn. If you go that route, you'll need to invest a lot of time on a tough learning curve and probably not possible to self-training (because of its complexity).
On the other hand, just look in the Cow and you'll see very fast that people who switched to smoke are really enthousistics.
The deal is this: it will cost you a lot more to master it, but when you do, it will cost you a lot less to produce high-end results.
No more need to go from this app to this other etc...
Honestly, if it was a little cheaper and I had time to learn it, I think I'd through away all the Avid, Da Vinci etc...and just work on it.
But keep in mind that this is a very high-end software and very demanding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqYD1OqJpdM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TWoZ-gQvTI&feature=relmfu
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Great advices! Thx guys for all your replies! (more more... ;))
Smoke! Yep, Autodesk wrote me an e-mail saying that the new Smoke's requirements will be less demanding than the previous version (they say that iMac27" gives good performances!)
Someone in the web says that Smoke in not so good for color-grading; the reason is that Autodesk just has a color-grading software that is Lust, but it's Windows-only or perhaps Windows&Linux-only, so de facto it seems that only Mac users call Smoke "finishing software". But it's only what I've read in web.
Anyway, I'll surely try to find a pdf manual of this monster! (HERE (http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/smoke-help-2013.zip) Smoke 2013 docs!)
Also, I don't know if Smoke 2013 will have a good multitrack audio platform...
Mr. fredjeang, you said you're using Avid and DaVinci (I suppose MediaComposer for editing and DaVinci for color-grading?), so you say that there is a good integration between these two softwares? (If I say... Avid+DaVinci vs Premiere+SpeedGrade?)
Just another little question about the scheduled "new" Scarlet with Dragon 6K sensor... I've read that some lens could have problems (vignetting) with this big sensor. In your opinion, the problem could be for APS-C lenses (EF-S) or also for full-frame lenses (EF)? And this issue could be related only to 6K takes or also to 4K takes? Any ideas?
(...ultra thanks, guys ;))
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Great advices! Thx guys for all your replies! (more more... ;))
Smoke! Yep, Autodesk wrote me an e-mail saying that the new Smoke's requirements will be less demanding than the previous version (they say that iMac27" gives good performances!)
Someone in the web says that Smoke in not so good for color-grading; the reason is that Autodesk just has a color-grading software that is Lust, but it's Windows-only or perhaps Windows&Linux-only, so de facto it seems that only Mac users call Smoke "finishing software". But it's only what I've read in web.
Anyway, I'll surely try to find a pdf manual of this monster! (HERE (http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/smoke-help-2013.zip) Smoke 2013 docs!)
Also, I don't know if Smoke 2013 will have a good multitrack audio platform...
Mr. fredjeang, you said you're using Avid and DaVinci (I suppose MediaComposer for editing and DaVinci for color-grading?), so you say that there is a good integration between these two softwares? (If I say... Avid+DaVinci vs Premiere+SpeedGrade?)
Just another little question about the scheduled "new" Scarlet with Dragon 6K sensor... I've read that some lens could have problems (vignetting) with this big sensor. In your opinion, the problem could be for APS-C lenses (EF-S) or also for full-frame lenses (EF)? And this issue could be related only to 6K takes or also to 4K takes? Any ideas?
(...ultra thanks, guys ;))
Hi,
Well, the procedure workflow with Avid to Resolve (I don't have yet the MC 6 but work on the 5 so I ignored if it changed), is basically through AAF.
But I hardly use them both now.
Avid is an HD editor and is unable to edit a 4K material at this resolution.
I'm using more and more Edius 6. It edits up to 4K in real time (with powerfull computer), but more importantly, the grading capabilities are almost unlimited. There is nothing you can do in Resolve you couldn't do in Edius, just that it's not as comfortable because obviously Da-Vinci being a dedicated specialized software, the interface is better implemented for the grading task. Edius 6 is the Grass Valley's Thomson editor and isn't very popular in Hollywood where Avid and FCP are the kings, but in Europe and Japan it is vastly used in broadcast teevees. The big chanel Eurosport for ex uses it.
The fact is that Edius, being basically an editor, is in fact closer to a Smoke philosophy (to some extend!) and not a lot of people know this. So if you master well enough the grading tools in Edius, you really don't need to use another dedicated software for color and you stay within the timeline up to finishing if there aren't compositing tasks needed. It has an equivalent of DNxHD called HQX and I find that the codec quality is extremely good and stable. You know, it's like this little brunette that nobody notice at first but when you really look at her she's really attractive!
Here there is a link that quickly shows the grading in Edius with Red files. And it just scratch the surface: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNrmb_EIeyo
But...it's windows only and no plans to go Mac, and the Red workflow is a DPX, no native R3D.
Premiere Pro seems to work well with Da-Vinci. There is a member here called C.Barrett that uses this workflow and seems satisfy. You could ask him.
Now I think the safest route is Da-Vinci. The fact is that if you are in colaborative workflow, there are zillion of colorists who work on Resolve while there are much less Smoke operators and there are expensive people to hire.
On the other hand, if you really plan to do your own prod in reduce team, going Smoke could indeed be very powerfull but not cheap. Then you'd have those more broadcast orientated softwares like Edius and if you don't plan to make star-wars or high-end commercial under deliveries pressures but a feature film with all the time for you, a software like Edius is more than enough to cover your needs, and you'll probably even won't reach its full capabilities.
About Smoke for grading, in fact it's prety damn good, but yes IMO there is a downside. It's a bit messy and unnecessary complex for color correction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWbiRHx1cTc&feature=related
IMO, the very good reason to stay Mac in motion is the Prores 444. Pcs can read it but not write it for Apple's strategical decision. It's a powerfull enough reason not to switch, even if high-end peecees are now the best option. But for a feature film I don't really see the Prores' bondage needs as you may end in image sequence for digi mastering. So you're quite free on that aspect.
Best luck.
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Oh man, the Smoke demo is just AMAZING! And the Edius demo is really impressive too!
I'm going to watch many video tutorials to decide which color-sw will be my... little brunette that nobody notice at first but when you really look at her she's really attractive!
(yeah man, you are a genius! I completely agree with you! ;))
It remains to me the doubt about the scheduled new Scarlet equipped with Dragon 6K sensor: I've read that some lens could have problems (vignetting) with this big sensor. In your opinion, the problem could be for APS-C lenses (EF-S) only, or also for full-frame lenses (EF)? And this issue could be related only to 6K takes or also to 4K takes?
AAF vs OMF vs XML vs EDL?
You are Masters, guys! Thx.