Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: bill t. on June 26, 2012, 11:26:41 pm

Title: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: bill t. on June 26, 2012, 11:26:41 pm
Don't want to hijack the aluminum panel thread.

Was wondering if anybody has found a particularly good way to cut Dibond and similar aluminum composite panels.

I have table-sawed and then sanded Dibond in the past, but I would prefer to avoid the nasty plastic sawdust and time intensive sanding.

On thegrumble.com there are a few threads about the Fletcher FSM media cutter which has a specialized, dual wheel cutting assembly for aluminum composites.  It's sort of like a wall mounted panel saw.  There is some suggestion that while it creates a very clean cut it also crushes the corners somewhat, where two cuts intersect.  Which possibly results in corners that are cosmetically unacceptable for a bare print-on-panel presentation.  Anybody have feedback on this?

Any other methods for dustless, low hassle Dibond cutting?

Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on June 27, 2012, 04:07:39 am
To cut DiBond, Alucobond etc without dust and without deformation of the sandwich at the edges will be difficult. The softer polyethylene in between the hard aluminium being the main cause. I have seen samples that were die cut and cut in other ways and the edge always deforms. The saw is the best option. I do not think laser or plasma cutting etc if possible will change that, the polyethylene melts faster and pulls the aluminium inwards. Waterjet cutting might be possible. I have done routing on Alucobond that cuts one aluminium surface side and then fold the edge + hot air welding the polyethylene core at the inside of the fold and it is a tricky job. When the thicker sheets are sawed the edges can be sanded and the rough polyethylene side can be polished with a hot air gun. Do not overheat, the color becomes darker.

For mounting and a cut precisely at the edge of the image it is much easier to mount on solid aluminum, say 2 mm thick and cut print + aluminium in one step and make the total more rigid with an aluminium frame glued on the back.

Check PDFs for machining DiBond etc, a wealth of information.

 
--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad,piëzografie,giclée
www.pigment-print.com
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: lfeagan on June 27, 2012, 04:19:55 am
I have never used my Festool TS 55 EQ (http://www.festoolusa.com/products/plunge-cut-circular-saws/ts-55-eq-plunge-cut-circular-saw-561432.html) on a sandwich of aluminum and polyethylene, but I have used it on plexiglass and aluminum sheets and it does a pretty amazing job along with a Festool CT dust extractor. Festool's dust extraction is excellent and a rail saw gives quite a bit of flexibility without requiring the space, cost, and weight of a sliding panel saw. Festool makes a blade specifically designed for aluminum and plastics (http://www.festoolusa.com/products/plunge-cut-circular-saws/blades/aluminum-plastic-56tooth-saw-blade-496307.html). By using the saw's variable speed control you can slow things down to avoid melting the plastics and causing the blade to bind or lead to a bad surface finish. The rail + splinter guard yield splinter free finishes on the top and bottom faces and on the waste and kept sides.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Luca Ragogna on June 27, 2012, 10:43:39 am
If you have access to a CNC router or a contour cutter with router head, they work beautifully for Dibond, Sintra, acrylic and whatever else you might print or mount on.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Bob Smith on June 27, 2012, 02:36:02 pm
I have the Fletcher FSC (Fletcher Substrate Cutter).  Works like a charm.  Very smooth edges.  Kind of like a Rotatrim on steroids.  It uses a rotary blade system for composites like dibond.  Put other blades in it and you can cut foam board, gator, mat board, glass, plexi etc.  I bought it specifically for Dibond without the mess of using a saw.  There are similar cutters from other manufacturers that do the same thing.

If properly adjusted, it shouldn't give you the corner problems you describe.  I don't have an issue with it.  I've sold many prints flush mounted to panels straight off of that cutter with no extra edge finishing at all.  Also, I'm not using DiBond brand material.  I use Nudo PolyMetal.  Exact same specs last time I checked but more readily available in my area and more attractively priced.  It may be the brand difference that is giving me better cuts.  Is so, all the more reason to use PolyMetal.

http://www.fletcherviscom.com/FFSC/main.html (http://www.fletcherviscom.com/FFSC/main.html)

Bob Smith
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on June 27, 2012, 06:24:41 pm
I have a Keencut Excalibur that I use to cut large boards. (Got a great deal via Craigslist from a graphics shop that was closing. Had to drive several hours to pick it up though).

It has the twin wheel cutting device for cutting aluminium composite. I bought it thinking I will do do a lot of acrylic face mounting with dibond backing.

I've only made a few test cuts only so far, but it cuts very smooth and no sanding required. It does roll off the edge round on ONE side, but keeps the other side relatively straight. So, I think it will work as long as you mount on the none rounded edge side. 

I will take some test cuts tonight and post the macro picture of it.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on June 28, 2012, 01:46:17 am
OK, I took a test cut and took some pictures. This is not Dibond, but 2mm e-Panel. It might have been 3mm, but not certain.

As I remembered, I get a flat cut on one side but gets a rounded edge on the other side.

The first image shows the side that was facing out while I was cutting. That side comes out mostly flat with no rolled edge. there is generally very slight bend at the entry and exit point when the wheels bites or leaves the panel. Pretty minor though. The cut side, btw, is the up and down direction on this photo. the horizontal part is the "factory cut". It came that way. It fact my twin wheels seems to cut cleaner.

The second images show the other side. You can tell the edges are rolled a bit. Also there is a slight scratch mark on the surface that comes from the twin wheels. Again, the top section is the factory cut which is rougher looking.

If you are mounting photo or canvas I think you can use either side for sure, but if you are going to sandwich it between acrylic or something, than I would make sure I used the flat cut side and not the rolled edge side for mounting the photo/paper.

I am assuming the Fletcher Twin Wheel version will do the same thing, but I don't know. Third image shows the twin wheel setup on mine.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on June 28, 2012, 02:07:40 am
Actually now I remembered some more details!  >:(  (Sorry, I've tried a few times several months ago and since then I've been only cutting Gatorfoam on this)

So the above piece was the piece on the LEFT side of the cutting wheel. The remaining piece on the RIGHT side of the cutting wheel will have rolled edges on BOTH sides.  I had to compensate for this the last time by flipping pieces around back and forth. It was a bit of pain!
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: bill t. on June 28, 2012, 02:21:43 am
Thanks to all for those replies!

Hey Johnny_Boy, great detailed information there, exactly what I wanted to know.  Thanks for the research!
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Bob Smith on June 28, 2012, 03:08:47 am
I don't see that much of a rolled edge on what I get.  I'll try to post some images soon.  I've also never noticed a difference between the two sides of the cut on my system.

Even taking that slight rolled edge into account, this is WAY better than any of many sawed versions that I have tried.  I used a table saw trying a variety of blades for about a year before getting my Fletcher cutter.  Even the best cuts still left a fairly rough edge that needed sanding.  But the worst part was the "dust".  The fine particles that result from the cut, unlike wood, are static charged and will stick to all sorts of things in places you don't want them.  One tiny misplaced piece that makes it way into a mounted print can ruin it.  It was MUCH more work to get a good finished print out that way.  One of these panel cutters makes the process a relative breeze.  If you want to use any type of saw system you really need a separate room completely sealed away from any print production area.  That plastic dust will drive you nuts.

Bob Smith
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: a.lorge on June 28, 2012, 11:53:32 am
Just to add a few points about the FSC cutter:

When cutting dibond, I've had better luck getting a nice edge by mounting prints to the dibond first and THEN cutting.  The cutter comes with a laser guide than makes this relatively easy.  It's also nice to be able to mount a few prints to one big board and trim them afterwards (saves a bit of time).  I've never tried to do things in this order with a saw, but I imagine it would make a mess.

A few negatives (relatively minor):  When cutting dibond, It's not possible to cut off just a sliver.  I find if I try to remove less than about 1/2", the cutting wheels migrate off the side of the material.  Also, I've had bad luck getting square cuts on smaller pieces of dibond (less than a square foot or so).  It's possible that this is because I don't have the vice clamp adjusted perfectly.  but, just thought I'd throw it out there.  :)
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Mulis Pictus on January 04, 2013, 12:23:17 pm
I don't see that much of a rolled edge on what I get.  I'll try to post some images soon.  I've also never noticed a difference between the two sides of the cut on my system.

Bob, do you have by a chance a close-up image of an ACM/dibond with mounted photo cut with Fletcher FSC cutter?
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Bob Smith on January 04, 2013, 05:40:12 pm
Sorry... forgot all about this thread until your post.  I'm attaching a quicky snap of a sample print that's been tossed around and handled quite a bit... so probably a bit rougher than most but I think it still shows the straight non-rolled edge.  I cut the dibond first, then mount, then trim the print from the back with an xacto knife.  Let me know if that helps...

Bob

Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Mulis Pictus on January 05, 2013, 04:56:25 pm
Thanks a lot!

My local framing tools supplier sells only Fletcher cutters (and not Keencut), so I wanted to see how it looks, when cut on the FSC. I am still undecided, whether to maybe try going a CNC router direction, but I fear it would cost me much more time and/or money. It will also require more space for the router table.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: rmyers on January 05, 2013, 06:00:56 pm
I've not done this, but I've seen routers mounted under table saw extensions so that you can use the rip fence on the table saw. Would this allow you to cut the sizes you need?

If you use a high quality spiral router bit, I think it would make a clean cut without blowing out the back layer.  Onsrud is probably the best brand of bit for this type of process.  They have been used to cut metals and composites for industrial processes for many years.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on January 06, 2013, 02:29:10 am
Bob, your rolled edge image is definitely looking better than mine. Is yours actually dibond and not the chinese made e-panel? I wonder if that makes a difference? If I remember correctly, real dibonds have thicker metal portion than e-panel, on one side or possibly both sides. That might be the reason why it is not rolling the edge as much?

In regards to router bits, I guess that could be useful for final trimming to the size, but you will still need the table saw or a substrate cutter to cut the large sheets into rough dimension. Table saw makes a huge mess even after I used a huge wax stick on the blade before cutting the sheet to collect the small metal shavings...
 
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: dgberg on January 06, 2013, 05:59:50 am
Bob, your rolled edge image is definitely looking better than mine. Is yours actually dibond and not the chinese made e-panel? I wonder if that makes a difference? If I remember correctly, real dibonds have thicker metal portion than e-panel, on one side or possibly both sides. That might be the reason why it is not rolling the edge as much?

In regards to router bits, I guess that could be useful for final trimming to the size, but you will still need the table saw or a substrate cutter to cut the large sheets into rough dimension. Table saw makes a huge mess even after I used a huge wax stick on the blade before cutting the sheet to collect the small metal shavings...
 


We cut almost all Dibond on our sliding tablesaw with aluminum cutting blade.
With good dust extraction it still needs a little cleanup.
I blow it off with compressed air and then wipe it down with a tack cloth and its ready to go.
Takes about 15 seconds in all to cleanup.
My cabinetry shop and studio are separated by my spray booth and assembly room so I rarely get any dirt or dust in the studio.
If your doing this in one room I can see a problem.
I have the festool 55 saw and track system,it works but takes too much time for setup compared to sliding a sheet through the saw.
The Fletcher would be ideal if your looking to add another piece of equipment.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Bob Smith on January 06, 2013, 12:33:50 pm
Is yours actually dibond and not the chinese made e-panel?

I'm using Nudo PolyMetal.  That's what my supplier stocks.  When I last checked it had specs virtually identical to 3mm Dibond... in terms of metal thickness etc.  There seems to be about a bazillion Dibond clones out there.  Many have the very thin metal coating.  This one seems to be about the same as Dibond but I really can't say for sure.  It's all I've ever used. 
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on December 02, 2014, 04:13:24 am
Returning to this old thread.

Considering the purchase of a Keencut with an alucomposite dual roll knife cutter for cutting 2 and 3mm DiBond or similar composites.

If I have a 4x8 feet DiBond 2mm sheet and cut that in half, is one half then warped?

What happens if a sheet is 3' wide and I cut 1' off, is that 1' piece warped?

If warped in both cases I rather use a circular saw + guide rail for making the pieces. Takes less space and keeps the pieces flat. My Krause heavy board cutter already cuts 1/4" edges off DiBond 2mm + the mounted print so trimming at that stage is easy.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
November 2014 update, 680+ inkjet media white spectral plots
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Richard.Wills on December 02, 2014, 07:20:03 am
For off cuts less than about 12", then, yes, you do see a slight curve. But for cutting down an 8x4' sheet, both sides are very much usable.

For large shows, we get the DiBond precut by our supplier (factoring a certain amount of time to reject bad cuts...), on their panel saw - when the blade is new, the results can be great.
For smaller works, then we cut from stocks of 8x4 on the SteelTrak, and the results are good. Strangely, we can only get 3mm Dibond on a next day delivery - seems like 2mm has ben dropped in the UK...

We also have the Aluminium cutting head, but have never had any real joy with it.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: bill t. on February 16, 2015, 11:28:59 pm
Old threads never die.

Does anybody here have any experience with the Keencut SteelTrak media cutters?  Was wondering if the rotary ACM cutters on the SteelTrak models are the same as on the Excalibur models used for Johnny_Boy's pictures earlier in this thread, and how the SteelTrak ACM cutter performs in general.

Also, I notice that in the brochure for the ST250 model that can make 8 foot long cuts, there is an obscure footnote that suggests there are unspecified materials limitations on that particular model only.  Anybody know what that's about?
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Justan on February 17, 2015, 12:52:14 am
^Don't have a direct answer but have you tried:

KEENCUT LIMITED HEADQUARTERS:
Baird Road, Willowbrook Industrial Estate, Corby, Northants, England, NN17 5ZA, United Kingdom

All Enquires Tel: +44 (0)1536 263158 (Keencut HQ)

FAX: +44 (0)1536 204227

Email: info@keencut.co.uk

from: http://www.keencut.com/contact-us/

Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: bill t. on February 17, 2015, 01:20:15 am
I have talked to one of the US distributors and they're being a little dodgy about some things, probably because they honestly don't know the right answers.  So I thought I'd get the info straight from those who have studied that device in the school of hard knocks.  Most salemen have not been knocked around nearly hard enough.

I need to cut 3mm Dibond and 6 to 13mm expanded PVC.  The Dibond is not a problem but the PVC may be an issue with the 8 foot ST250 model, for reasons unknown.  Maybe PVC is too slippery for the clamps, or it's not clamped full length, who knows?

Would be nice to cut those panels in the same room as the printer and framing operation, and lose the nastiest sawdust on the planet.  ACM has been getting heavier over the years, and I now have this vision of panels leaned up against the wall mere centimeters from a clean cutting panel slitter, where I could then just turn around and dump the pristine, dustless, fully deburred, and precisely sized panels on my worktable.  Won't tell you what I have to go through now, would bring tears your eyes.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Justan on February 17, 2015, 09:13:27 am
The video i saw on yt makes it look very capable.

I can believe sales folk don’t have the answers. Perhaps they can direct you to some of their customers in the US?

Also you might try asking at the Grumble. Having put in text, most there appear to use largely more traditional materials and i haven't seen menton of DiBond or similar....

Edit: Take a look at the following link. Looks like a good resource: http://www.signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?108004-Foster-Keencut-SteelTrak-Anyone-have-Anyone-recommend
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: bill t. on February 17, 2015, 01:53:31 pm
Oh yeah, have checked all those sources many times and have even had a demo of the smallest version of the machine.

What I'm really looking for is input from somebody who has used the largest version in the context of fine art production.

Minor issues not be worth the mention for a slam-dunk sign maker might be deal-breakers for the likes of us.  LuLa in most likely to have the droids I seek, if they would only speak up.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Richard.Wills on February 17, 2015, 03:49:18 pm
I only have the 210 (ceilings are too low...) but do not believe that the clamping mechanism would change that much on the larger model - I'm sure that it would handle 8' PVC without problem, and given the construction of the cutting track, I'd have difficulty imagining it flexing.

Every time I've had dealings with Keencut, they've been extremely responsive - either phone (helps that I'm over right-ponded) or email. They've always been very straight and open to deal with
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: jferrari on February 17, 2015, 10:01:38 pm
Bill, take a look at this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_ZAG3074w8). Might help, might not.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: bill t. on February 18, 2015, 02:05:42 am
Thanks to all for your input.  Forgive my nervousness, that's a pricey machine that would only be worth it if it would eliminate all the current rough spots in my production, which it seems capable of doing.  No panel saw, no table saw, no making 27 ragged knife swipes at 6mm PVC, no Gatorfoam chips in my ice cream, and lovely cuts on ACM.  But there was this ominous little quote in the product .pdf:

** some restrictions may apply to Acrylic, Glass and PVC materials. on the 98”
model. Please contact your local Foster Keencut Dealer for more information.


Well, I was not the only person confused by that, but now it looks like the restrictions have to do with glass, and who uses that anymore?  PVC seems to be not a challenge, nor is Dibond, Gator, etc.  Have already had a demo of one of the smaller machines from a more-than-happy fine-art customer with some great stories to tell over lunch.  It's a very well built device that I am sure I will pass it on to my grand children.

As Richard says, Keencut is a very attentive company that always picks up the phone and tries hard to address one's issues, both in the UK and over here in the US.  I believe I may be the first ST250 user in the US, or at least an early adopter, so that's where the confusion evolved.  Here's to high ceilings.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Justan on February 18, 2015, 11:19:07 am
Thanks for explaining the reasoning for your reluctance. Being the first on the block with anything requires a significant leap of faith.

FWIW, when in doubt always purchase using an AMEX CC as they back the buyer where other CC vendors typically back the seller.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Richard.Wills on February 19, 2015, 02:06:52 pm
Looks like the glass cutting accessory tops out at 65". This is not the cutting wheel, but rather the raised section for snapping the glass. In my wildest nightmares, I (don't) picture myself cutting 2-3mm glass that is three feet higher than me. I don't have the glass kit (nasty sharp stuff), but when do need to trim glass, then just cut a section of 5mm pvc which makes a reasonable snapping line.

Afraid to say that on 6mm PVC (at least, the good stuff), you're looking at two passes of the blade, and if your workshop gets cold, some of the cuts can go very slow (to avoid the hideous cracking sound of the material fracturing). But they are lovely smooth clean, easy cuts to make.

I dread the day we get higher ceilings and they bring out a 3m cutter - the idea of 10x5 sheets could only lead to cravings for a 60" printer...
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: bill t. on February 19, 2015, 03:18:54 pm
Yes I learned about the two pass PVC thing from my local contact.  No problem, it's pleasantly warm here and having a clean-cutting, perfectly aligned blade is an improvement over the dozens of shred-inducing, wiggle-waggle cuts I now have to make by hand.  I can hand cut up to about 30" quite nicely, but as soon as walking becomes involved it's all over.

Yes, I too worry about size creep.  I established a 90" limit in the days of my 9880 with its famous length limitation, but even now there is some pressure for more.  48 x 98 (framed) sounds big, but that can seem tiny in large rooms, where the client can not be talked into multiple pieces.  Big sells, no doubt about it.  Have been trying to shoot much taller panos, to pump up the on-wall presence without passing the 96" mark.
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: Richard.Wills on February 19, 2015, 05:37:55 pm
I reckon you could change the proportions a tad, say 48x96. If only sheet materials came in an 8x4' size...

Until we shift locations (first floor, no lift), we are absolutely limited to 8x4's - larger won't make it up the stairs. Actually, as someone is building a hotel opposite us, and the road will be closed for 14 months, we're having real troubles getting anyone to deliver 8x4's at the moment.
</rant>
Title: Re: Dustless way to cut Dibond and other aluminum composite panels?
Post by: bill t. on February 19, 2015, 07:41:34 pm
Yes, there is more to this business than keeping our nozzles clean.  My location is a dead-end, curb-crushing trap for large trucks.  I have to fetch stuff at the freight terminal in my small Tacoma pickup truck, with 41 inches between wheel wells, where objects over 6 foot long hang out the back.  Somehow I manage, the lack of stairs is merciful.  The SteelTrak will be an adventure in moving.  It's a complicated chain of events that converts charges on our credit cards into art on our customers' walls.