Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: bdosserman on June 14, 2012, 08:17:56 pm
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Hi,
Aside from having read some LuLa reviews, I am pretty much completely ignorant when it comes to tripods, ball heads, etc. I have a D800e on order, and would like to get a good tripod (and associated accessories) for it. I want something that is reasonable for extensive walking, but good quality, so I'm assuming I'll end up with carbon fiber, but beyond that don't really know where to start looking. What do people recommend?
Thanks,
Brian
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I've been eyeballing the Gitzo tripods
http://www.gitzo.us/photo-tripods (http://www.gitzo.us/photo-tripods)
If anyone has experience with some of these models, please pipe in. After reading the specs on their "traveler,' "mountaineer", "explorer" models, I'm still left without an intuitive feel of the practical differences. I wish Gitzo showed a video of each tripod line in actual use so we can fully understand what "lightweight," "compact," "versatile," "high performance" really all mean. I do know one thing though, it seems so many tripods are about 5" too short. If the camera eyepiece doesn't reach your eye while you stand straight, it may be too short in some situations. I've also heard the four extender tripods have more vibration, wich is bad.
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I can't tell what model off the top of my head, but I have the Gitzo Carbon Fiber tripod that has a usable load of 35 pounds. I don't use a center column. Instead I have a Kirk ball head mounted on a center plate. My whole setup is probably worth $1500 which would surely cause sticker shock with first-time tripod buyers. But, it is worth it big time. The carbon fiber tripods are lighter than aluminum, not as cold in the winter, and dampen vibration better. Still, there is nothing light about this setup. It requires some stamina to haul around.
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If you search around, you can find video reviews of the gitzo tripods. But in my experience, you really have to see and play with them in person. FWIW my main tripod is the systemic 3541LS -- okay to hike with but it's not really a light tripod. For travel by air, I use a velbon 640 (looking to replace it with maybe a 2-series gitzo or tqc-14 from RRS). I did have a traveler (GT1541) but found it too light
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Even if you are not interested in a RRS tripod, their specs are similar to a number of Gitzo models, so you can use this image collage (http://reallyrightstuff.com/mmrrs/Images/library/versausers/ImageGrid.html) with 4 people of different heights from 5'0" to 6'5" to get an idea for you what the various heights would be like. Seeing the TVC-24 (height of 49.2") with the guy who is 6'5" is pretty hilarious as is the 5'0" girl with the TVC-34L (68.5").
I have a D800E and use a TVC-34L (http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=TVC-34L&type=4&eq=&desc=TVC-34L-Versa-Series-3-Tripod) for most of my use. For backpacking I use a Velbon El Carmagne 540, which is similar to the Geo 540 (http://www.velbon.co.uk/products/photo/geo_E-540.html) model sold now (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/708919-REG/Velbon_GEO_E540_GEO_E540_4_Section_Carbon.html). It is both light and small and doesn't cost a fortune, which means that were it to suffer some catastrophic fate while in the wilderness I wouldn't be terribly upset. That being said, it has gone through national parks from East to West and in-between for quite a few years and is still doing great.
Any tripod with all 4-leg sections out is not going to be the most stable thing. The last section on light tripods suitable for serious hiking have a diameter similar to the large pencils used in kindergarten for writing. When weight and height are to be minimized some things will be sacrificed. For hiking I prefer a tripod less than 18" in length without the ball head.
I may pick up a small RRS tripod, such as the TQC-14 (http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=TQC-14&type=4&eq=&desc=TQC-14-Quick-Column-Series-1-Tripod&key=it) and lend the Velbon to others on my adventures.
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I use a RRS TVC-34L with the levelling and an Arca Swiss Cube. This IMO is the ultimate head and tripod combination which is still light enough (just) for carrying. The 34L has the advantage of height which means that for GP use only three leg sections need to be extended but on a slope the extra length is very useful. I use this tripod for both my D800E and Hasselblad both of which are fitted with L plates.
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I use an INDURO CT313 and a mid-weight ball head attached, which is probably a little oversized for use with my D3; although with the 300AF-S & TC14E II maybe not. These are well tripods made but don't come with the hefty price tag of a Gitzo. Carbon is the way to go.
I chose a 3 section rather than a 4 section after reading on different blogs that 3's were more stable than 4's. I can't tell you whether this is correct or not. This one is rather large, but I'm over 6' and don't enjoy crouching over to look through the view finder. I also found over the years that with landscapes, the ground where I wanted to stand is seldom flat and level, so with extended legs and spikes balanced from rock to hump, tripods always seemed too darn short. With the ballhead and then the camera on top, well the viewfinder is in a better spot for me with this one.
I have and use the RRS system of clamps & L brackets on all my cameras.
A second reason that I chose the larger tripod as I still use my TOYO 45A and yes FILM, in a 6X9 roll film back!
My first experience in flying with this will come later this fall, and time will tell whether I made a wise choice. It fits in my duffel case and all so I should be good.
Take your time in choosing, A good tripod is a vital link in quality photography.
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Those of you hiking with Gitzo 3541's or RRS TVC-34L's have my respect and sympathy. Neither of those tripods are light, nor are they small. I've used both, and would consider each to be short-walk tripods. I wouldn't take either for "extensive walking."
A better choice for hiking would be a something like the four-leg RRS 24L or Gitzo 2540 with medium-sized heads. Both are more than sturdy enough and collapse to manageable lengths. My primary tripod for the past 10 years has been a well-used Gitzo 1228G (predecessor to the 2540 series) with the mid-size Markins head, although I now use a RRS TVC-33 for much shorter jaunts.
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I only take my TVC-34L on walks less than 1 hour in (2 round-trip) of a slight to moderate grade. Anything steep or longer than 1 hour in and I prefer to stick with a tripod of less than 3 pounds as other necessities for human survival and being prepared for weather changes at higher altitudes start to add to the weight (more water, some food, rain gear, warmer jacket).
Realistically, if you are planning to engage in more extensive hikes, you will need an ultra-light tripod/head (similar to a Gitzo 1 series). For increased stability and height in less extensive situations having a Gitzo 3/5 series or RRS 3 series with a leveling base and a large ball head or cube should work out well. Thinking that you can get single Gitzo 2 series and avoid having a 1 and 3 series-like tripods will lead to compromises in both scenarios that I want to avoid (especially after trying out that concept).
I only used Gitzo series numbers in the above example as their characteristics are generally well known and most companies make equivalents to the 1/2/3 (small/medium/large) sizing. In no way am I recommending that you buy their products specifically. I owned one before they had ALR (anti-leg rotation) and ditched it for Velbon. I always carry a multi-hex key tool (http://www.service.kleintools.com/Tools/PRD/Category/GRIP-IT%20Hex-Key%20Sets%20HEXKEYWR-FOLDING-GRIPITHEX/Product/70574) in my camera kit and needing to adjust legs with flip locks occasionally is not an issue.
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A better choice for hiking would be a something like the four-leg RRS 24L or Gitzo 2540 with medium-sized heads.
Agreed ... I use a Gitzo 2541 with a nice head, a D700 and the 70-200 all the time. It does what I need it to do.
After 3 years of solid use one of the legs snapped off and Gitzo replaced it under warranty.
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Look for a used Gitzo Carbon Fiber - say the 1325 - should be available for $300 or so including shipping.
Save the money for trips/lenses etc.
Benro tripods (check Ebay) are good value Carbon Fiber - these don't come up for sale as used often...
Look for 3-section tripod. For how "strong" a tripod...I calculate this way: take the weight of your longest lens and multiply that by four...that is the strength rating of the tripod you will need. For example: a 600mm F4 weighs about 8.5 pounds; multiply by 4...so you want a tripod that supports a minimum of 35 pounds safely.
Ballhead? Look at Markins for great value. There has been much discussion here lately about ballheads (and tripods) so search archives...
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Thinking that you can get single Gitzo 2 series and avoid having a 1 and 3 series-like tripods will lead to compromises in both scenarios..
I find the 1-series as pretty useless for anything other than small, P/s cameras. It's simply too light and weak to be reliable in all circumstances, especially when mounting something as ubiquitous as a 70-200 2.8, which taxes it's limits. My mainstay Gitzo 1228 (2-series) with the Markins Q10 head weighs in at a tad over 4 lbs and collapses to about 2-feet. It is light and easily carried in hand or on bag and, despite being 4-section, is very stable. I've used it for more than 10 years, and have not compromised one bit. The 2-series is perfect for those who want, or can afford, only one tripod.
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I can appreciate the money you might save by buying a Benro carbon fiber tripod, but imho it is a false economy. I have compared comparable sized Benro side by side with their corresponding Gitzo and the Benro wobbles. The Gitzo is much stronger and more rigid.
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For the OP, the Gitzo 1228 (discontinued) translates to the current Gitzo GT1540F (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/752395-REG/Gitzo_GT1540F_GT1540F_Series_1_Safari.html) and its similar model-numbered variants. If you can get your hands on the Gitzo and other models, it should become more clear what will work. As you will be walking about extensively (according to your post), make sure it is easy to get the legs up and down with a minimum of frustration and hassle. I am going to refrain from making any comments on what leg styles I prefer as this subject has a diversity of strong opinions. Ultimately you being able to perform a hands on evaluation of what meets your needs will be critical.
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For the OP, the Gitzo 1228 (discontinued) translates to the current Gitzo GT1540F (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/752395-REG/Gitzo_GT1540F_GT1540F_Series_1_Safari.html)
Sorry. the replacement for the 1228 is the 2541, which is slightly lighter and supports more. Both have similar leg diameters.
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Gitzo 1228
Max Height: 60.6"
Max Height w/o Column Extended: 52.0"
Folded Length: 21.3"
Load Capacity: 17.6 lb
Leg Sections: 4
Weight: 3.40 lb
Gitzo 1540F
Max Height: 62.6"
Max Height w/o Column Extended: 54.3"
Folded Length: 21.3"
Load Capacity: 17.6 lb
Leg Sections: 4
Weight: 2.5 lb
The tripod you specified as "the same" has a higher weight capacity by 10lbs. The OP is looking for a tripod for "extensive walks" and you stated that the 1228 was suitable. If there exists a lighter, less-expensive tripod with the same capabilities as those of one you stated was acceptable (the 1228), then that is the equivalent from the standpoint of his needs.
I said "translates to" not "replacement" as determined by the manufacturer's marketing department and you. I identified that which most closely matched the key capabilities. You identified a tripod with over 50% greater load capacity. Equivalency in capabilities is the basis of an intelligent translation between old and new models from the same manufacturer and from one manufacturer's products to another's.
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You identified a tripod with over 50% greater load capacity.
<sigh>
The new models have improved carbon fiber composites over the previous generation, thus a higher load capacity. That is why you cannot simply quote B&W specs as if they were gospel. If you want to argue, do it Gitzo who actually said, when the current line was announced, the 2-series replaced the G1228/1227 tripods. I think they would know, don't you?
As far as "translates to", you need to look at leg diameters as well as load capacity, weight, and height.
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I've seen some demonstrations of people hanging from/standing on their tripods, so I've concluded that strength is not the most important criterion. Stiffness is what keeps the tripod from shaking/vibrating.
While the two are related, they are not the same. Stiffness is affected by the diameter and modulus of the tripod legs, as well as the stiffness of the head. Stiffness is very hard to measure, so manufacturers give us a guide by quoting weight capacities.
Having bought four tripods and disposing of three of them, I well know the difficulty in finding the "right" one (many users have several).
The advice given above to try one out is sound IMO. Mount the camera with lens on the tripod and give it a bump to make it vibrate, then compare another tripod using the same technique. All tripods will vibrate to some extent, but some will vibrate less.
I personally use a Gitzo Explorer (which someone on another site called a difficult and awkward tripod to use). The legs can't be pulled out, they must be unlocked first, then when in position, locked again. This is awkward, but the benefit is that the joint between the head and the leg is stiff in both directions (in and out). A tripod on which the legs will pull out is stiff in one direction of leg travel only (against the click stops) - pushing the legs back in offers little resistance, and no stiffness in that direction.
Hoping that this makes sense.
Click on the image, and the locking levers can be seen. The twist locks (g-lock) are very nice.
http://www.gitzo.us/series-2-carbon-6x-explorer-tripod-4-section-g-lock
Glenn
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you don't say what lenses you'll be shooting or subjects - landscapes, wildlife, macro, panoramas? weight, budget?
cost no object, the RRS tripods are the best. Gitzo are nearly as expensive with many more choices. Some of the Chinese CF tripods are good value - i like Feisol. for static subjects (except in high winds) you don't need a super heavy tripod if you use liveview or mirror lockup and a remote release
heads are equally or more important. although i'm not a big fan of ball heads, you can get by just fine with a medium weight head like the Markins Q3 if you use a L-bracket on your camera and a focusing rail to balance the camera-lens combination (which you really should do with any kind of head). even large ballheads don't work well with un-balanced cameras or flipped over for portrait.
a lot of photographers (myself included) have spent a bunch of money on tripods and head sitting in the closet - do plenty of research and some testing before spending a lot of money
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The worst case is if you want to make long exposures in windy conditions using a heavy tele lens.
If you don't do long exposures, and are not in windy conditions and use lighter lenses almost anything will do, as long as you shoot with the mirror up.
I use a gitzo 3541xls myself, not exactly small or light, but very versatile and stable enough for most tasks. For long exposures I would not extend it fully of course. Surprisingly often I get to use all four sections, for example when shooting on very uneven ground or over-head shots. If such a tripod is too heavy or not depends on how much weight you can (and want to) carry. I typically carry about 10 kgs of shooting gear, so if the tripod is 1.5 or 2.5 kgs does not make a huge difference.
I have no center column on that one, but if you like to do macro photograhpy you'll want one. It is a pain to do micro-adjustments in height (which you often need in macro) when not having a column. I rarely do macro, but have a separate cheap manfrotto tripod for that.
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for all your comments. Definitely helping me to get my bearings. A number of people have mentioning trying out the tripods before buying -- do I understand correctly that that wouldn't be an option for the RRS products?
you don't say what lenses you'll be shooting or subjects - landscapes, wildlife, macro, panoramas? weight, budget?
My primary interest is landscapes, although I enjoy doing some macro and wildlife as well. I'm planning to do most or all wildlife shooting with my GH2 w/100-300mm lens. I hadn't thought about using a tripod for that, too, but I suppose I ought to consider it. In any case, I won't be using heavy telephoto lenses. I plan to use a Sigma 150mm for macro, and this may well end up being my heaviest lens. But even then, a lot of my macro is insects, so I don't think the tripod would be very practical for that. For landscape I will start with the 24-120mm f/4 and possibly a prime or two, and I am expecting I may get some T/S lenses at some point. But it seems like I am unlikely to be using anything weighing more than about 1 kg, unless I end up upgrading to the 24-70 and 70-200 lens combo (no immediate plans to do so).
cost no object, the RRS tripods are the best. Gitzo are nearly as expensive with many more choices. Some of the Chinese CF tripods are good value - i like Feisol. for static subjects (except in high winds) you don't need a super heavy tripod if you use liveview or mirror lockup and a remote release
heads are equally or more important. although i'm not a big fan of ball heads, you can get by just fine with a medium weight head like the Markins Q3 if you use a L-bracket on your camera and a focusing rail to balance the camera-lens combination (which you really should do with any kind of head). even large ballheads don't work well with un-balanced cameras or flipped over for portrait.
Wow, this opens up a whole new set of complications for me. I hadn't realized that at least the RRS ballheads don't even come with plates, and their plates are camera-specific (even to the extent that you choose versions with or without battery grip!). Plus, their D800 L-plates are sold out. Do people use their plates, or non-specific ones? Do others agree that an L-bracket is necessary for portrait? Also, I could see the value of getting the weight balanced, but do I understand correctly that a rail could easily be incorporated into my setup later, after I'd had a chance to play around with how it feels without it?
Thanks again,
Brian
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Brian, you could try Kirk for an L-bracket. But I have found with RRS, when they say they are sold out it usually doesn't mean weeks of waiting, just put your order in and you'll have your bracket fairly soon.
I use an RRS tripod but a Markins ballhead with an RRS rail when necessary. I have never liked the knobs on the RRS ballheads.
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I'm not going to offer you brand specific purchasing advice, just some simple basic 'what to look for advice. After all, all this is is a tripod and head, not a religion or even a cult.
Ideally you want a tripod+head+camera combination that brings the camera up to your eye level when you are standing up - not not even slightly stooped - when the the legs are fully extended without using the center column of the legset. If legs extended fully + head and camera brings the eyepiece up above your standing eye level simply mark the smallest leg sections with a Sharpie so that you can quickly get to that height.
The center column needs to be reversible. I am not one of those snobs who say never use the center column, but do use it sparingly. If offered , get a tripod that hasa hook atthe bottom of the center column. Hangign your backpack or bag from the center column does two things: adds ballast to stabilize the rig and gets the bag off the ground which keeps it cleaner and out from underfoot.
Ideally you want legs that spread to flat or nearly flat.
Tripod heads:
I have both ball beads and double tilt pan heads. Both have their place. Whether you prefer one over the other is sort of dependent on what you take photos of. For me I find that for photographs of cityscapes, landscapes, panoramics, still life and buildings I prefer a double tilt panning head. For photographs of moving people and objects I prefer a ball head. With either type of head I much, much prefer a panning mechanism at the base of the head and at the top of the head directly under the camera/lens, even if you have to add it to a head that doesn't have this feature built in and even if you never plan to shoot stitched panoramas.
Weight limits: To be conservative get a tripod and head combination that supports substantially more than your current heaviest combination of camera and lens.
Quick release system: there is only one logical choice here: a system based on the Arca-Swiss open ended channel clamp and bar type foot. I am not a fan of anyone's lever operated locking clamps as they tend to also lock you into that brand's plates as well.
You may end up eventually with more than one tripod. I have three sizes: a small but sturdy for hiking, a medium large for general work, and a massive for very serious work. Only the small one is a carbon fiber. The other two are 25+ year old Gitzo aluminum ones.
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I'll echo the advise of others that you carefully think through the purchase. I made all the "mistakes" that one can make with tripods over the year; always getting something that I thought would be "good enough" only to wish I had bought something better at each decision point along the way. The old-school guys always had stories about guys like me, buying tripod after tripod after tripod when they should have gotten what they needed correctly the first time.
So finally I learned my lesson and stopped screwing around. I have a Gitzo 5 series (the 5530, current model is 5531 I believe) with the RRS BH-55 ballhead. I expect it will be the last tripod/head I'll ever need. Is it heavy? Yup. Expensive as hell? Yup. Is it a pain in the arse to hike with? Yup. But I've done 10 mile round trippers with it, and while it's a bit uncomfortable at that distance, I know that when I get to my destination I'll have something that's not going to let me down, no matter if it's windy, if I'm using a bigger lens like my 200/2, or whatever else I might find. I also figure if a friend of mine could deliver twins with natural childbirth, I can deal with a bit of pain hauling a 5 series Gitzo for a number of miles. The pain is forgotten once you're back home looking at the images.
It's been about 5 years now, and both legs and head have been through several trips on the Oregon coast and the sea-spray, salt, and wind, as well as several trips through the dunes and near wind-storms at Death Valley, and it's been banged around the slot canyons of the southwest. It's no longer pretty, but the stuff has held up tremendously well and is quite reliable. I do feel you get what you pay for when it comes to legs and heads.
If I were to do it all again, I probably still would get the Gitzo 5 series, but I do also seriously admire the heavier RRS tripod (TVC 33?) as well, although I don't think it's quite as massive as the Gitzo 5 series. But I could see that the RRC 3 series might be the perfect 'pod out there, and it would have to be seriously considered as well. No way would I ever scrimp on one again, learned my lesson for sure.
-m
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Hi Brian,
There are so many variables that go into choosing a tripod and head - I agree with the other recommendations that you should really try to find samples of the models you are considering, and test them out in person. Bring the gear that you plan to use, and check the rigidity, stability, and usage features with those items mounted. It's hard for other people to give definitive advice. You need to consider the things that you like to shoot, how you set up (eye level? close to ground? in a blind? in water?), what techniques you will be using (panoramas? macro? long tele? wide-angle landscapes?), how much weight you are comfortable carrying, and over what distances, how fussy you are about sharpness in your shots, how big you print, etc. And cost, of course.
Here's one other consideration that has not been mentioned so far in this thread: will you be shooting any video with your D800E? If so, you may want to consider a pan/tilt head, or ideally, a fluid head. The damping in a good fluid head helps you to make smooth camera moves, which is one of the distinguishing features of a professional-looking video. A pan/tilt head can be quite serviceable for landscape stills, but a ball head (even a very good one) will be less than ideal for video. One disadvantage of fluid heads is that they tend to be bulky, and the best of them are a bit heavy. You might eventually want to have more than one type of head. This argues for choosing a modular tripod, one that can be fitted with different types of heads. With Gitzo's series 3, 4, and 5 "Systematic" tripods, you can remove the flat base plate, and attach a "video bowl" adapter which mates with high quality fluid heads.
That's what I did. I have a Gitzo G1348, somewhat similar to their current model GT3541LS. This is a series 3, carbon fiber, 4 section tripod. I don't use a center post, and almost never use the smallest leg sections. Using only the largest three sections, this tripod puts my D800E at eye level. I am 67" (170cm) tall. The smallest leg sections are only needed if I am shooting on a slope, or over a crowd. If I am only shooting stills, I mount an Arca-Swiss B1 ball head, the predecessor to the current Z1 model. This combination is quite solid. If I want to shoot video, I loosen one bolt on the Gitzo, pull out the Arca and the Gitzo's flat base plate, and drop in a Sachtler FSB-4 fluid head on a 75mm Gitzo video bowl adapter. The switch-over takes less than a minute.
For hiking long distances, I use a different combination: a Gitzo GT1542T ("Traveler" series 1, 4 section, carbon fiber), with an Acratech GP-s ball head. This setup is light, small enough to fit inside my backpack, and certainly strong enough to hold a D800E with 24-70 or 14-24. I can't vouch for its suitability with big glass - since I'm not strong enough to haul that stuff up steep mountain trails. The Acratech has a couple of clever features. You can detach the panning swivel from its normal position, under the ball, and reattach it over the ball and under the quick-release clamp. In this configuration, you can level the panning swivel, and it functions as a horizontal panorama head. You can also drop the ball sideways into a yoke, so that its motion is constrained to movement around a horizontal axis. With the panning swivel as your vertical axis of rotation, this lets the Acratech work as a gimbal head. Both of these tricks are not ideal substitutes for dedicated panorama or gimbal heads, but still useful when traveling light. If my explanation is unclear, see the tutorial videos (http://acratech.net/) on their web site.
I'm not a fanboy for Gitzo. I have had no problems with their products, although I gripe about their high prices, especially on accessory parts. Some people claim that the tripods from Really Right Stuff have better build quality. I have RRS plates and clamps, but have not used their tripods or heads.
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I use one of these mounting my ball head on the tripod; http://www.naturescapes.net/store/nsn-safety_plate-for-gitzo-tripods-gsp35.html
I bought it because I use a Wimberley Side Kick with a Nikon 200-400 f4 and wanted the extra security. It makes it more time-consuming to change to a bowl and video fluid head. I was going to mention it in my original post but forgot. If you're not using a big heavy lens, you probably don't need one.