Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: david.westphal on June 14, 2012, 12:42:58 am

Title: DEAD IQ160
Post by: david.westphal on June 14, 2012, 12:42:58 am
Just had my IQ160 die on me this past Sunday in the middle of a shot.  Pretty embarrassing.  Kinda thought we were past those days where we needed a second back on location as back-up.  I received a temporary replacement back on Tuesday.  Apparently, phase is only responsible for 24 hour replacement Monday through Friday.  Wondering how many working photographers on this forum only work M-F?  Cost me $1000 to cover a rental back for two days.  The second rental day was Tuesday but because I had a 5am call time, they could not accommodate me.  That's a poor excuse from phase.  I understand that there is typically nothing that can be done the day of, but that is a real cost.  I now have to add that cost to the overall cost of my back.  I cannot recover that expense.  To make matters worse, my temporary replacement is a P65+.  I've got to know the logic behind that?  Why it is that I am paying a value added warranty only to receive an outdated model.  The same chip size is BS.  The best part, the firewire port on the P65+ is fw400 so I had to go out and buy a new cable for that back.  I just don't understand why it is that phase can charge us the premium cost for their product and services and yet, we are constantly denied a premium product and service from them.  I find it baffling.  But I shouldn't be surprised, it is afterall, phase one and in my book have always been notorious for not living up to their own hype. 

I don't even know the phase one rep for California?  Who is that and why didn't I have that information on Sunday when my back died?  I guess that's on my dealer.  I will not give out my dealer's info.

The purpose of this post, besides my rant.  Just wanted to let everyone know that this is your reality if your phase one IQ back dies on you.  So I hope it doesn't happen to you.

And by the way, when I say die, I mean burnt electrical smell coming from the back die. 

Feel free any phase one rep to chime in here.  I'd like to hear you defend your response to the poor customer service I've received.

David
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: HarperPhotos on June 14, 2012, 01:57:41 am
Hi David,

Get a Nikon D800e like I have. These DBs have had there day in the sun mate.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: amsp on June 14, 2012, 06:21:12 am
Hi David,

Get a Nikon D800e like I have. These DBs have had there day in the sun mate.

Cheers

Simon

Trolling the MF forum now are we?

(http://vejamvoces.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/trollface.jpg)
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: HarperPhotos on June 14, 2012, 07:05:11 am
Hi asmp

Nah not trolling just been a realist when it comes to the advertising work I do. I can guarantee David's client wouldn’t give a rats ass what camera he used. The client is only interested in in getting what they want and not having camera malfunctions is not one of them. For the cost of one of these fancy DBs you could have a number Nikon D800e’s. And yes I do own a Leaf Aptus 75

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: amsp on June 14, 2012, 07:35:40 am
Hi asmp

Nah not trolling just been a realist when it comes to the advertising work I do. I can guarantee David's client wouldn’t give a rats ass what camera he used. The client is only interested in in getting what they want and not having camera malfunctions is not one of them. For the cost of one of these fancy DBs you could have a number Nikon D800e’s. And yes I do own a Leaf Aptus 75

Cheers

Simon

Sorry, but going on a medium format forum and telling someone who has a problem with his back/service to buy a Nikon instead is pretty much the definition of trolling, and quite frankly this kind of fanboyism isn't befitting a professional like yourself, nor is it helpful in any way shape or form to the OP. I think any pro realizes there are different needs for different people and situations, period.

Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: MrSmith on June 14, 2012, 07:40:51 am
i don't know any photographer who shoots without a back-up which is usually a dslr, those that don't are 25min away from a rental body/back.

can't comment on the level of service, here in london it's the people on the end of the phone who are good (like Teamwork) they don't answer on the phone on weekends though.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Paul2660 on June 14, 2012, 09:03:43 am
David,

Sorry to hear about the problems.  I don't think there are any true "phase rep"s in the U.S.  At least I have never found one since owning a Phase back since early 2008.  It's always been a "dealer", that provided info, price and warranty support. 

Your receipt of the P65+ however is a concern that I addressed when I purchased my 160 with the value add warranty.  Based on your experience, I am rather disappointed and agree with your concerns.  That Phase considers a P65+ to be a workable replacement for a IQ160 to me goes totally against the terms of the value add warranty.  You are to receive a back that has the same capabilities as the back you sent to Phase.  No way does the P65+ begin to have all the same capabilities as the IQ160.  I choose the 160 over the P65+ mainly due to those differences for working with a tech camera.  Plus Phase has continued to provide firmware updates to the 160, and I have not seen any recent firmware updates to the P65+.  To me all they really share is the same physical chip, totally different cameras. 

Sounds like your back overheated which is also a surprise.  Hope that Phase can turn your back around in a hurry.

Paul
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: david.westphal on June 14, 2012, 10:34:59 am
i don't know any photographer who shoots without a back-up which is usually a dslr, those that don't are 25min away from a rental body/back.

can't comment on the level of service, here in london it's the people on the end of the phone who are good (like Teamwork) they don't answer on the phone on weekends though.

I was talking about a medium format back up.  I switched over to my canon until I found a rental mf back in this particular case.  But I needed to shoot nodal with the canon to get the proper coverage that I was getting with the mfdb.  We used to carry two mfdb backs on location but that was almost 10 years ago.

David
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: torger on June 14, 2012, 10:40:32 am
It's a new situation now. Previously MFDBs were so far ahead in image quality it was easy to forgive them for being less-than-perfect in many other aspects. Now DSLRs have quite decent image quality so the gap is smaller, so I guess it puts some more pressure on the MFDBs to deliver on more aspects than just image quality.
Title: bbq
Post by: bcooter on June 14, 2012, 01:52:19 pm
Hi David,

Get a Nikon D800e like I have. These DBs have had there day in the sun mate.

Cheers

Simon

Jeez Simon, your not counting in the value added.  

I woke this morning to emails from about every Phase related dealer in the world offering free BBQ and we all know that a saving $7 on a BBQ sammich is a heck of a deal when your dropping 20k on a camera back . . . well except in England where the BBQ really should be free . . . oops sorry I take that back, in England they should pay you to eat the BBQ, but I guess that would require a whole new topic of discussion.

All the best.


BC.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: MrSmith on June 14, 2012, 01:58:29 pm
are you making slanderous accusations towards the British sausage?
and it's 'sandwich' BTW as invented by the first lord of the admiralty John Montague 4th Earl of Sandwich 1718 – 1792
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: HarperPhotos on June 14, 2012, 05:14:49 pm
Hi asmp,

Yes you got me I am a self confessed Nikon fanboy and in the immortal words of Maxell Smart, Agent 86 “And loving it”

All the best

Simon
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Schewe on June 14, 2012, 05:55:34 pm
Apparently, phase is only responsible for 24 hour replacement Monday through Friday.  Wondering how many working photographers on this forum only work M-F?  Cost me $1000 to cover a rental back for two days.  The second rental day was Tuesday but because I had a 5am call time, they could not accommodate me.

Uh...I think your expectations are totally unrealistic. Phase is like any other business...it keeps normal business hours (like normal people do). The fact you were shooting on a Sun isn't Phase One's fault...it was you for allowing yourself to take a booking on a weekend. Sure, I understand ya gotta shoot when ya gotta shoot, but just because YOU do doesn't mean the rest of the world has to revolve around your schedule...and say Phase One had a 24/7 capability...how do you suppose Phase was gonna ship that puppy to you? Put it on a plane for special hand delivery on Mon? Pretty sure FedEx isn't open on Sun for drop offs either...

The fact you had a 5AM call time on Tues is again, not Phase One's fault...I presume Phase shipped the replacement back FedEx priority overnight? Again, what exactly do you think Phase should have done? FedEx SameDay service is a bit expensive...is that what you were expecting?

The only thing I agree would be frustrating would be to get a P65+ as a replacement for and IQ 160...did you actually talk to somebody at Phase about this? I suspect they were trying to get something in your hands ASAP and simply didn't have an IQ 160 to send you and did the best they could with what they had on hand...

I realize you are embarrassed in front of your client for not having a backup back to shoot with considering you were shooting over a weekend with little chance to do a quick local rental (most rental houses would also be closed on Sun ya know). I understand you're pissed the back got fried...I also understand your frustration at getting a suboptimal P65+ (which still ain't to shabby) but your rant about Phase not being open on Sun and that they couldn't get you a back shipped for your 5AM call time is really just a bit (well, maybe more than a bit) unrealistic...
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: david.westphal on June 14, 2012, 07:59:20 pm
Uh...I think your expectations are totally unrealistic. Phase is like any other business...it keeps normal business hours (like normal people do). The fact you were shooting on a Sun isn't Phase One's fault...it was you for allowing yourself to take a booking on a weekend. Sure, I understand ya gotta shoot when ya gotta shoot, but just because YOU do doesn't mean the rest of the world has to revolve around your schedule...and say Phase One had a 24/7 capability...how do you suppose Phase was gonna ship that puppy to you? Put it on a plane for special hand delivery on Mon? Pretty sure FedEx isn't open on Sun for drop offs either...

The fact you had a 5AM call time on Tues is again, not Phase One's fault...I presume Phase shipped the replacement back FedEx priority overnight? Again, what exactly do you think Phase should have done? FedEx SameDay service is a bit expensive...is that what you were expecting?

The only thing I agree would be frustrating would be to get a P65+ as a replacement for and IQ 160...did you actually talk to somebody at Phase about this? I suspect they were trying to get something in your hands ASAP and simply didn't have an IQ 160 to send you and did the best they could with what they had on hand...

I realize you are embarrassed in front of your client for not having a backup back to shoot with considering you were shooting over a weekend with little chance to do a quick local rental (most rental houses would also be closed on Sun ya know). I understand you're pissed the back got fried...I also understand your frustration at getting a suboptimal P65+ (which still ain't to shabby) but your rant about Phase not being open on Sun and that they couldn't get you a back shipped for your 5AM call time is really just a bit (well, maybe more than a bit) unrealistic...

Pretty much disagree with you.  Everyone who works in this industry knows how it works.  And that means working weekends.  As an assistant and tech, I never told anyone I worked for, provided services and equipment to that I would only be available M-F.  If I had known of a regional/ local phase rep, I could have called him and gotten a demo back, at the very least, on Monday.  That's how it used to work.  That's what Brian H would have done.  I would hate to have a vendor in this business that told me I could only reach then at certain hours.

In terms of phase working to get me a back asap and that's why I have a p65+, that's BS.  My dealer told me that a client with a 180 got a p65+ when their back went down just a couple of weeks ago.  Phase has no excuse for not providing me the proper replacement.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: locpham on June 14, 2012, 10:01:26 pm
Pretty much disagree with you.  Everyone who works in this industry knows how it works.  And that means working weekends.  As an assistant and tech, I never told anyone I worked for, provided services and equipment to that I would only be available M-F.  If I had known of a regional/ local phase rep, I could have called him and gotten a demo back, at the very least, on Monday.  That's how it used to work.  That's what Brian H would have done.  I would hate to have a vendor in this business that told me I could only reach then at certain hours.

In terms of phase working to get me a back asap and that's why I have a p65+, that's BS.  My dealer told me that a client with a 180 got a p65+ when their back went down just a couple of weeks ago.  Phase has no excuse for not providing me the proper replacement.

I have to agree.  Working weekends is the norm for photographers and when someone purchases a digital back with value added, I would expect better service.  What they are paying for is support in case of an emergency.  To not be there when it is needed defeats the purpose.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Schewe on June 14, 2012, 10:21:19 pm
Working weekends is the norm for photographers and when someone purchases a digital back with value added, I would expect better service.

Read the fine print...does Phase One offer 24/7? No...if your expectations are that they do, you didn't read the fine print or you have totally unreasonable expectations.

And having been in the biz for about 30 years, I gotta tell you that if you are working weekends and off hours, you either do the professional thing and work with backups and any/everything you need to do the production or not. The OP apparently didn't read the fine print in the value added warrantee and was shocked that a company closes on weekends. I find that unprofessional on the part of the photographer and he's trying to off load the blame to somebody else...sorry, but if you are gonna do a shoot for a client you have to anticipate production problems and have a system in place to deal with it.

Bitching about Phase One not being open on Sundays is silly.  Complaining that Phase couldn't get a replacement back by 5AM Tues is silly. Complaining that he got a P65+ instead of the IQ 160 is legit.

Photographers working weekends and off hours is their choice. Just because THEY do it doesn't mean the rest of the world will (and in fact as the OP has now found out, it doesn't).
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: EricWHiss on June 14, 2012, 11:18:13 pm
Schewe,
You probably forgot about all the pro wedding photographers and the like who mostly work weekends? 


Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Schewe on June 14, 2012, 11:25:22 pm
You probably forgot about all the pro wedding photographers and the like who mostly work weekends? 

If you KNOW you're gonna be working weekends it would behoove you to have backups, no? And Sat is different than Sun, no?
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: TMARK on June 14, 2012, 11:39:47 pm
Commercial shooters work weekends and late hours, often in strange places.   I used to have backs and cameras shit out on me all the time back in the P25/Aptus 22 days. I would switch to the Canon at that point and wait for some dude from Fotocare to show up with a replacement. I think the point is that Value Added may not Add as much Value to a pro's back if s/he works on location in the wilds. Works great in NYC and I'm sure even on a weekend Fotocare or DT would get you a back that day. But I was always suspicious of the value the Value Added warranty provided, just from my experience with the time frames required by FedEx and UPS.

What eventually happened is that when I sent in th deliverables the editorial clients didn't see a difference between the MF and FF frames, which made me question why I was using a slow $20k back that ate batteries and had issues talking to the camera when the Canons worked flawlessly.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Schewe on June 14, 2012, 11:55:03 pm
Works great in NYC and I'm sure even on a weekend Fotocare or DT would get you a back that day.

On a Sunday? Really?

I think the fact that Phase got "something" in his hands Tues (ok, not early enough for his call time) to be pretty good...and I don't disagree that the further away you are from "civilization" you are, the less likely you will have a replacement back the next day. Which the OP should have known...
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Kumar on June 15, 2012, 12:32:33 am
Reading this and other forums, I have been under the impression that the dealer is the first point of contact for Phase One users. Some dealers here have stated that they are available 24/7 for customers, who have their cellphone numbers. AFAIK, there has never been a Phase One rep active on the forum. David Grover who did a great job for Hasselblad earlier bats for Phase One now, but he's in charge of software. David helped to solve a problem with an Imacon back - without getting a dealer into the picture.

Perhaps the dealer should have taken more responsibility? I don't know the terms of the VA warranty, so if someone could clarify?

David, you're in LA, aren't you? Is that very far from "civilization"? :) Or were you shooting in the wilderness?

Kumar
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: david.westphal on June 15, 2012, 01:08:39 am
Read the fine print...does Phase One offer 24/7? No...if your expectations are that they do, you didn't read the fine print or you have totally unreasonable expectations.

And having been in the biz for about 30 years, I gotta tell you that if you are working weekends and off hours, you either do the professional thing and work with backups and any/everything you need to do the production or not. The OP apparently didn't read the fine print in the value added warrantee and was shocked that a company closes on weekends. I find that unprofessional on the part of the photographer and he's trying to off load the blame to somebody else...sorry, but if you are gonna do a shoot for a client you have to anticipate production problems and have a system in place to deal with it.

Bitching about Phase One not being open on Sundays is silly.  Complaining that Phase couldn't get a replacement back by 5AM Tues is silly. Complaining that he got a P65+ instead of the IQ 160 is legit.

Photographers working weekends and off hours is their choice. Just because THEY do it doesn't mean the rest of the world will (and in fact as the OP has now found out, it doesn't).

Still don't get it.  But that's cool.  We are entitled to our own opinions. 

I'm not off loading the blame on phase.  If you read my posts, I'm not complaining that I didn't get the replacement back on Sunday.  I did have a backup.  Whatever. 

David
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: david.westphal on June 15, 2012, 01:11:22 am
On a Sunday? Really?

I think the fact that Phase got "something" in his hands Tues (ok, not early enough for his call time) to be pretty good...and I don't disagree that the further away you are from "civilization" you are, the less likely you will have a replacement back the next day. Which the OP should have known...

I was working downtown Los Angeles.  Not sure how far away from civilization that was. 

BTW, I have a name.  I won't be offended if you refer to me by my name as opposed to OP.  It's David...  To get something in my hands by Tuesday is really only doing the bare minimum to satisfy the terms of the value added.  So nothing special there.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Gel on June 15, 2012, 02:43:36 am
David,
Any serious shoot I've ever done I've carried a backup.

Todays DSLR's are really closing in on MF. The IQ from a 5D3 for example sits right on top of a P25. (I have both) and the 1DX is simply astonishing (field tested one last week).

I haven't tried the D800 but that's no doubt great too if you need resolution. (But Canon glass is better).

It's no IQ back, but it's a get me there solution which works. If we're going to put ourselve in tight spots and demanding situations we need to also be in a place to rule out dealer support.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: HarperPhotos on June 15, 2012, 04:35:02 am
Hi Gel,
 
“(But Canon glass is better).”

Interesting comment. I suggest you try a Nikon D800e with Nikon’s new G lenses. Love to know your thoughts after that little test.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: ziocan on June 15, 2012, 07:55:24 am
Commercial shooters work weekends and late hours, often in strange places.   I used to have backs and cameras shit out on me all the time back in the P25/Aptus 22 days. I would switch to the Canon at that point and wait for some dude from Fotocare to show up with a replacement. I think the point is that Value Added may not Add as much Value to a pro's back if s/he works on location in the wilds. Works great in NYC and I'm sure even on a weekend Fotocare or DT would get you a back that day. But I was always suspicious of the value the Value Added warranty provided, just from my experience with the time frames required by FedEx and UPS.

What eventually happened is that when I sent in th deliverables the editorial clients didn't see a difference between the MF and FF frames, which made me question why I was using a slow $20k back that ate batteries and had issues talking to the camera when the Canons worked flawlessly.
Same here!
For me, Phase and all the network of dealers, which is only "Added Cost", can switch to banana business any time they want.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: ziocan on June 15, 2012, 07:57:51 am
(But Canon glass is better).
There is not better glass. period.
Especially Canon.....
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: julienlanoo on June 15, 2012, 09:22:54 am
Try shooting some clothing, mesh, fences, brick walls from far away in wide angle wit a D800e, it's still a small format..

Remarkable, identically the same discussion was held 25 years ago, when discussing, : Why the hell would you need a hasselblad if a Leica is superb ? .. or why the hell use 4x5 inch if it's so expensive and Leica has great quality..
It was bullshit then it's bullshit now...
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: julienlanoo on June 15, 2012, 09:28:02 am
There is not better glass. period.
Especially Canon.....

No better glass than canon ?  Do you know about a brand called: Rodenstock ?  or Shneider ?  i might even direct you to Leitz.. ?
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on June 15, 2012, 09:34:12 am
No better glass than canon ?  Do you know about a brand called: Rodenstock ?  or Shneider ?  i might even direct you to Leitz.. ?


Got the Schneider 80mm LS lens. To be 100% honest, I'd take a Canon 50L any day. The Schneider has clinical sharpness but zero character whatsoever and the bokeh isn't that good either.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: julienlanoo on June 15, 2012, 09:40:58 am
Got the Schneider 80mm LS lens. To be 100% honest, I'd take a Canon 50L any day. Clinical sharpness but zero character whatsoever.

Saying the " canons " are the best glass is a bit a dangerous point, as the 16-35's are shit, the 28 300 is shit, ( nikon has better) , Compared to the Leica Elmarit S 50 is way better than the canon, ... The shneider 80 mm on phase one is way better than the 80 mm than the mamiya 80mm and comparable tot the hassy 80mm..

But none of the above can reach the quality you get with Rodenstock Digarons W 's..

So the "best" that's " relative " ...
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: julienlanoo on June 15, 2012, 09:43:27 am
If you base a Definition on 1 comparisation, and 1 test it's never a good definition..

Saying the " canons " are the best glass is a bit a dangerous point, as the 16-35's are shit, the 28 300 is shit, ( nikon has better) , Compared to the Leica Elmarit S 50 is way better than the canon, ... The shneider 80 mm on phase one is way better than the 80 mm than the mamiya 80mm and comparable tot the hassy 80mm..

But none of the above can reach the quality you get with Rodenstock Digarons W 's..

So the "best" that's " relative " ...
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on June 15, 2012, 10:25:54 am
It was a rather silly comment from that poster however I'd say that any global comeback not specifying usage and needs it just as mistaken. If your criteria is just clinical sharpness and contrast then perhaps it would be possible to specify a certain brand. If usability, rendition and pleasing character are however important (i.e. to everyone but landscape photographers using tech cameras) then the names thrown out here are going to lose and badly.

No brand overall (there are about 70 different lenses in each of the canon or nikon brands) is going to be better. Neither is any brand the right to claim overall superiority based on a single criteria, sharpness.

I'd disagree with you on the Canon 16-35L for example but then I use it for wedding photography at f2.8 and couldn't care less about the corners. See what I mean? The Leica is better than the canon unless of course you want to put it on an SLR or shoot at wider than f2.

There is no brand that is best, only specific lenses which are best for a persons highly personal needs and usage.

(http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/8/9/8/ruth.jpg)

Pentax Super 50mm f1.4 circa 1969 (or so) shot wide open. The Leica would not have been able to fulfill my needs for this shot (the summilux pre-asph could but then the camera couldn't do the necessary high iso), neither the Schneider 80mm LS, nor any of the tech camera super over sharp lenses. 'Best' is too subjective to be used in an argument period IMO.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: phaseoneus on June 15, 2012, 11:10:10 am
Dear David and Photographers friends,

I rarely go on these forums to post, but I read them very carefully to stay alert, and updated on the industry feedback from users of our equipment.
This feedback is used by myself to optimize my own US setup, but also reported directly into R/D and Global support in Denmark where we have our HQ.

When I see negative feedback in shape of form that potentially hurts the reputation of Phase One, normally I contact the shooter directly and talk to him.
In this case since so  many shooters are now involved and putting in comments, I thought I´d better have the reply here in the open.

I have Area Sales Managers + a number of tech supporters strategically placed throughout the US, who all have lots of equipment to share, and I know they use it not only for sales purposes but for emergencies like the one you just had. - We try out best to meet any demand and on-site help.

Phase One US is based on a highly skilled distribution setup with multiple dealers/resellers that take care of shooters daily, most of them even on weekends.
The specific case we (Phase One US) only heard about Monday morning at 10.43, immediately (within 40 minutes) we replied that a loaner could go out in shape and form of a P65+ since it was urgent, and this was okay by the contact at the reseller we communicated with.
This loaner was shipped that same morning and arrived the very next day, which under the circumstances I believe is within reason, I read from your comments that you feel so too.

To your comments on P65+ replacing an IQ, I do agree that ideally IQ should be replaced with an IQ and we are getting to that.
Currently I am replacing all P+ service units with IQ units, and we actually have multiple in our service stock here at our US office in Melville.

I have started with replacing P+ units on our own Phase One platform, but the platform you are currently shooting on, will also be supported by IQ service units moving forward.

In short, I am sorry that you had a Phase One product go down at such a crucial time, but I think that Phase One under the circumstances that we worked within did everything we could. - I hope after reading my reply you will agree.

My Area Sales Manager in LA is Brent Siebenaler - you can reach him through your local dealer, and you can always call the me at the US office in Melville.

I wish you and everybody reading this a great day, and happy shooting.

Best regards,

Claus Pedersen
President - Phase One US

Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: bcooter on June 15, 2012, 03:03:44 pm
Jeff,

It's been a while since you've been in the twenty bid world of commercial imaging, but it's a lot different today than before.

I can give you dozens of scenarios where it's normal to work on a weekend and it usually comes down to money.  You have the crew and talent , the pre production is in place, most of us travel and a large crew on the road is burning cash every day.

Also everyone works from a bottom line.  I haven't heard the term day rate or creative fee in years and if you do it really doesn't mean much because  client's don't care if you sleep in a weekend or keep working, because they are only gonna pay what they are gonna pay.  It's not unusual in production for some crew member (usually me)  to ask what day ii is and they don't mean the date, they mean is it Friday, Saturday or Sunday.

Now in regards to David, I understand his side, but I don't know how Phase can do anything about getting a backup in a timely manner that works for a compressed schedule project,  unless your shooting across the street for a well stocked dealer.

As you said, that's why everyone has backups, though as you know having $30,000, $20,000, or $60,000 backups seems like a waste or money . . . until you really need them.

That's one of the reason just about everyone I know has not only thrown a dslr in their bag but a lot have just moved to 35mm, superior image quality or not, because every added case of cameras can translate to thousands in baggage overage if your moving country to country and of course every extra system brings it's own unique workflow, battery chargers, lens sets, etc.

So I guess I'm saying I don't see this as a Phase One fault, I just see it as the way the industry's business model has changed.

IMO

BC

P.S.  I will admit I'm somewhat envious of people that can work 8 to 5.  This Thursday night I was in the process of constructing a creative treatment for a project and  thought it was about 2 am until I noticed the room was getting brighter and brighter as the sun was coming up.

I think I need a vacation.


Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: LenR on June 15, 2012, 05:15:07 pm
Sh_t happens.

Phase came thru fine.

Get a D800 JIC

Have a nice weekend:)
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Schewe on June 15, 2012, 05:55:36 pm
It's been a while since you've been in the twenty bid world of commercial imaging, but it's a lot different today than before.

Which is why I don't put up with that crap any more :~) But I remember it...it wasn't really fun then and is prolly less fun now (with less money).

But...the point I was trying to make is that if you're gonna do it, you should be prepared to do it. At least now David knows...
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: david.westphal on June 15, 2012, 06:07:12 pm
Dear David and Photographers friends,

I rarely go on these forums to post, but I read them very carefully to stay alert, and updated on the industry feedback from users of our equipment.
This feedback is used by myself to optimize my own US setup, but also reported directly into R/D and Global support in Denmark where we have our HQ.

When I see negative feedback in shape of form that potentially hurts the reputation of Phase One, normally I contact the shooter directly and talk to him.
In this case since so  many shooters are now involved and putting in comments, I thought I´d better have the reply here in the open.

I have Area Sales Managers + a number of tech supporters strategically placed throughout the US, who all have lots of equipment to share, and I know they use it not only for sales purposes but for emergencies like the one you just had. - We try out best to meet any demand and on-site help.

Phase One US is based on a highly skilled distribution setup with multiple dealers/resellers that take care of shooters daily, most of them even on weekends.
The specific case we (Phase One US) only heard about Monday morning at 10.43, immediately (within 40 minutes) we replied that a loaner could go out in shape and form of a P65+ since it was urgent, and this was okay by the contact at the reseller we communicated with.
This loaner was shipped that same morning and arrived the very next day, which under the circumstances I believe is within reason, I read from your comments that you feel so too.

To your comments on P65+ replacing an IQ, I do agree that ideally IQ should be replaced with an IQ and we are getting to that.
Currently I am replacing all P+ service units with IQ units, and we actually have multiple in our service stock here at our US office in Melville.

I have started with replacing P+ units on our own Phase One platform, but the platform you are currently shooting on, will also be supported by IQ service units moving forward.

In short, I am sorry that you had a Phase One product go down at such a crucial time, but I think that Phase One under the circumstances that we worked within did everything we could. - I hope after reading my reply you will agree.

My Area Sales Manager in LA is Brent Siebenaler - you can reach him through your local dealer, and you can always call the me at the US office in Melville.

I wish you and everybody reading this a great day, and happy shooting.

Best regards,

Claus Pedersen
President - Phase One US



Here's the thing, nothing remarkable was done to help me from phase one.  That's part of the point.  With the amount of money I have spent over the past 10 years of ownership, I can honestly say that Phase did not rise to the occasion.  You got me a back which you are obligated to do under the value added warranty.  I believe the warranty states that the replacement back is due to arrive within 24 hours.  My issue is that I actually got the back 48 hours after it went down.  I think good customer service would have been that you contacted the local sales rep to get in touch with me to come up with a solution.  Or provided me the contact info so that I could have contacted the local sales rep.  That would have been the type of service I would have appreciated.  That's the type of customer service I provide my clients. 

I was very clear with my dealer my work schedule.  If that information was transmitted to Phase One in Melville, why couldn't they have seen the need for urgency and attempted to contact me to come up with a solution on Monday morning?  That's $1000 that I cannot recover. 

I had no idea who the local sales rep is and even now, you have provided his name but I have no contact information for him.  I do not go through a local dealer for my digital back.  I don't think any local dealer are going to be interested helping me with obtaining that information as a result.  I contacted one dealer here in LA looking for a rental who only lectured me for not buying my back from him.  This, just 30 minutes after my back went down and I was trying to find a rental for the day to finish the shot.  I can give you his name in private. 

With regards to Jeff Shewe, I think the post from bcooter is pretty spot on.  I think Jeff exists in a much different world than I do.  So it's hard for him to imagine my situation.

With regards to 35mm cameras.  My tool is to shoot with MFDB.  It's the tool of my trade, it's an integral part of my process.  If 35mm worked for my approach, that would be my tool.  I do have a 35mm back up camera that I did use.  I don't understand a thread about a dead phase back can devolve into a discussion about quality of nikon vs canon, or whatever it is that's going on with the conversation.  I think this back and forth about 35mm vs medium format is ridiculous.  Just choose the tool that works for you and your methodology. 

David
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Prakash Patel on June 15, 2012, 09:16:11 pm
David

You are lucky that you could confirm your back was dead and its only gonna cost you 1K and your time....since it is visible your client might even understand.
We all learn lessons........I had a similar but an invisible situation a couple of years ago shooting a terminal at JFK.
After shooting a 16 hour day on a multi-day shoot, while downloading the CF cards @11pm I realized some of the files were corrupt.
Preview JPG files show up just fine on the back...but some of the raw file data is corrupt. While I was never a boy scout myself, being prepared with another identical Sinar e75 saved me. I had a 5 year warranty 24 hour replacement warranty that was useless as the terminal that I was shooting would be in full operation in 3 days.........the replacement back would show up a 1.5 days later.
Doing the math, if you are lucky and your  back goes out in the morning, you can get a back the next morning after 8 am or 10:30 am
So at minimum you loose an afternoon, dusk, dawn and morning and after testing the replacement unit you might be able to
shoot the following afternoon if everything is peachy ........like the focal plane is where it is supposed to be. If your back goes out in the afternoon or later...well you are $%&* deeper.
You are right about your comments about your selected tool, I drag around a an slr with a full compliment of PC lenses as well.
But not being able to use my tech camera with premium glass is not an option for me just like it sounds it is not for you.

The only productive suggestion is to use a service offered by ProGear/Doug Sperling in Chicago...rent a back at 1/2 price as a back up unit
or pony up and get 2nd back. I am actually surprised that more dealers don't offer this as a revenue generating device.
Perhaps if you purchased from that dealer they could offer it to their client for less than 50% of rental costs (if unopened)......certainly beats collecting dust on a shelf or being loaned out for demo for extended time frames  to tire kickers.
Any way sorry to hear about your experience and as a result I have decided not to sell off my second back.....you have made me realize
that all electrical devises will fail, its just a matter of time and when the failure will occur.

Thank you for sharing your story.

regards,


Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: mediumcool on June 15, 2012, 10:19:57 pm
Trolling the MF forum now are we?

(http://vejamvoces.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/trollface.jpg)

+1
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Kumar on June 15, 2012, 10:30:39 pm
Dear David and Photographers friends,

I have Area Sales Managers + a number of tech supporters strategically placed throughout the US, who all have lots of equipment to share, and I know they use it not only for sales purposes but for emergencies like the one you just had. - We try out best to meet any demand and on-site help.

Phase One US is based on a highly skilled distribution setup with multiple dealers/resellers that take care of shooters daily, most of them even on weekends.
The specific case we (Phase One US) only heard about Monday morning at 10.43, immediately (within 40 minutes) we replied that a loaner could go out in shape and form of a P65+ since it was urgent, and this was okay by the contact at the reseller we communicated with.
This loaner was shipped that same morning and arrived the very next day, which under the circumstances I believe is within reason, I read from your comments that you feel so too.

My Area Sales Manager in LA is Brent Siebenaler - you can reach him through your local dealer, and you can always call the me at the US office in Melville.

David is based in LA, and he's shooting downtown. The Phase One Sales Manager Brent Siebenaler is based in LA.
David's back goes down on Sunday, and presumably, he calls his dealer immediately, asking for a replacement.

1. His dealer doesn't give him Brent's contact details right away, or call him on David's behalf? In fact, as soon as he has bought his shiny new back, why isn't he given the contact details of ALL the possible people who can help him, wherever he is shooting at the moment?

2. Brent is in LA, and gets the message at 10:43 on Monday. So why doesn't he call David at 10:44 - or even 40 minutes later? Why doesn't he drive down to David's shoot with a replacement back and FW400 cable?

Yes, Phase One honored the letter of the VA warranty. They didn't provide great customer service.

Kumar
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Schewe on June 15, 2012, 10:50:46 pm
1. His dealer doesn't give him Brent's contact details right away, or call him on David's behalf? In fact, as soon as he has bought his shiny new back, why isn't he given the contact details of ALL the possible people who can help him, wherever he is shooting at the moment?

I guess you missed the part where David said:

"I had no idea who the local sales rep is and even now, you have provided his name but I have no contact information for him.  I do not go through a local dealer for my digital back.  I don't think any local dealer are going to be interested helping me with obtaining that information as a result.  I contacted one dealer here in LA looking for a rental who only lectured me for not buying my back from him.  This, just 30 minutes after my back went down and I was trying to find a rental for the day to finish the shot."

So, he doesn't really have a dealer relationship to fall back on...and I don't think Claus would post Brent's contact info on a public forum. Kinda comes down to having the benefit of a good and close working relationship with a local dealer. Fortunately, here in Chicago I have a good relationship with Progear Rental and even have Doug Sperling's cell and home number and the Phase One midwestern sales manager Murray Elliott (although I only have Murray's cell not home number). If you are spending a ton of money on a system it behooves you to know the people who can help you out in a pinch. If you don't deal with a local Phase One dealer, it makes that a bit tough.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Kumar on June 15, 2012, 11:19:15 pm
Jeff, I did not miss that. I think you're missing my point. This isn't about the dealer. The warranty isn't issued by the dealer, but by Phase One.

I did not suggest that Brent's (or anyone else's) contact details be posted on a public forum. But actually, why wouldn't/shouldn't Phase One give this information to customers who are buying new equipment?

So you're in Chicago, and you go to LA for a shoot. Your back (with a VA warranty) goes down. Would you like/expect that a replacement back come from LA in a couple of hours, or wait the stipulated 24 hours to come from your dealer (or the Phase One rep) in Chicago?

Phase One allows dealers to sell their equipment according to country, correct? And anyone in the US is free to buy from any dealer in the US (and get a VA warranty)? So why penalize the customer for not buying locally?

Phase One is issuing the warranty. Not Phase One LA, or Phase One Chicago or Phase One NYC. I think some companies play this game of acting like a big multinational or a mom-and-pop store whenever it suits them.

Kumar
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Schewe on June 15, 2012, 11:58:57 pm
So you're in Chicago, and you go to LA for a shoot. Your back (with a VA warranty) goes down. Would you like/expect that a replacement back come from LA in a couple of hours, or wait the stipulated 24 hours to come from your dealer (or the Phase One rep) in Chicago?

I would expect (because that is my expectation) that I would call my dealer or Phase One in NY and have a replacement back in 24 hrs. Yes, I might try Murray or Brent to see if I could get a back but I would neither expect or demand it...and if I were shooting on a Sun I would not expect the replacement before early Tues AM (and not by 5AM).

The fact that David didn't have a relationship with an LA based Phase One dealer led to the fact he couldn't get a quick emergency back to keep shooting...if Brent had a back and wasn't otherwise committed for a Sun or early Mon I suspect David could have gotten a loaner quicker. He didn't have an LA relationship so he didn't have a clue who to call. Whose fault is that? Phase One's? I don't think so...

Look, any way you analyze this the only shortcoming from Phase One was sending a P65+ instead of an IQ 160. Everything else was done within the reasonable expectations of a value added warrantee. Do you dispute that? If David expected Phase One to answer a call on Sun and get him a back on Mon, his expectations were not realistic. Right? So, David bit the bullet and it cost him $1K to rent a back for 2 days.  Hopefully he was charging enough that it only impacts his profit from the job and that his IQ 160 can get fixed and back in his hands quickly. One wonders what actually happened to his back–as an IQ owner, I'm curious...

On the other hand, if I'm gonna spend upwards of $50K (which I did) I would make an effort to get to know the people I need to know such as my local dealer, the regional Phase One guy, the president of Phase One US (yes, I know Claus) as well as some of the guys from Denmark. But hey, that's me...
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Graham Welland on June 16, 2012, 01:15:45 am
On the other hand, if I'm gonna spend upwards of $50K (which I did) I would make an effort to get to know the people I need to know such as my local dealer, the regional Phase One guy, the president of Phase One US (yes, I know Claus) as well as some of the guys from Denmark. But hey, that's me...

Jeff,

I think that this is the crux of the issue. I always try to get to know personally (even if briefly and cursory) the folks in the organization so that even if they only remember my name that there is a connection of some sort. This applies to all aspects of business and definitely greases the wheels ...

Btw, kudos to Claus for coming here to the forum. I'm pleased to hear that the placement backs for IQ VA will be IQ's because to be honest as an amateur who forked out for the VA on my IQ160 I'd be pretty pissed if I got a P+ back as a replacement for any period of time. That's NOT what I paid for!
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Kumar on June 16, 2012, 02:35:51 am
I would expect (because that is my expectation) that I would call my dealer or Phase One in NY and have a replacement back in 24 hrs. Yes, I might try Murray or Brent to see if I could get a back but I would neither expect or demand it...and if I were shooting on a Sun I would not expect the replacement before early Tues AM (and not by 5AM).

The fact that David didn't have a relationship with an LA based Phase One dealer led to the fact he couldn't get a quick emergency back to keep shooting...if Brent had a back and wasn't otherwise committed for a Sun or early Mon I suspect David could have gotten a loaner quicker. He didn't have an LA relationship so he didn't have a clue who to call. Whose fault is that? Phase One's? I don't think so...

Look, any way you analyze this the only shortcoming from Phase One was sending a P65+ instead of an IQ 160. Everything else was done within the reasonable expectations of a value added warrantee. Do you dispute that? If David expected Phase One to answer a call on Sun and get him a back on Mon, his expectations were not realistic. Right? So, David bit the bullet and it cost him $1K to rent a back for 2 days.  Hopefully he was charging enough that it only impacts his profit from the job and that his IQ 160 can get fixed and back in his hands quickly. One wonders what actually happened to his back–as an IQ owner, I'm curious...

On the other hand, if I'm gonna spend upwards of $50K (which I did) I would make an effort to get to know the people I need to know such as my local dealer, the regional Phase One guy, the president of Phase One US (yes, I know Claus) as well as some of the guys from Denmark. But hey, that's me...

While I agree that personal relationships are important, I think we have a very different understanding of how things ought to work...
I had a problem with my privately bought H20. Doug Peterson offered to help - even though I was in Japan and he in the US. I went with the Japanese dealer because of Phase One's policies. My Amex card covered 90% of the cost, so it really didn't matter either way. But Doug's offer, and his quick and responsible attitude was great.

When my Imacon 132C developed fungus, I got in touch with Shriro, the importer, and at that time, Hasselblad's owner. I was asked to get in touch with the local dealer - who quoted "between 100,000 and 150,000 yen" for a repair that Hasselblad listed at 295 Euro! I wrote to David Grover, and then, Carsten Kronborg, Director After Sales. I got my repair done directly, bypassing the dealer who wanted an extra 50,000 to 100,000 yen for acting as postman.

There are good and bad dealers...

The organization has to decide how it wants to treat its customers - and how it wants its dealers and representatives to treat its customers.

A question for Claus: Does Brent represent Phase One dealers in LA or Phase One users in LA? This would clarify a few things...

This is of only academic interest to me at the moment, since I'm not in the US. But it may help those in the US - or when I visit the US - with a Phase One back in my bag...

Kumar
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: torger on June 16, 2012, 02:42:35 am
Does it need to be this complicated? I just want to buy the thing, not make friends :-).

I'd rather have lower prices and less friendship, and then just afford a second back (although a DSLR probably would do as a backup these days) and get the repair when there's time.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Kumar on June 16, 2012, 02:45:22 am
I think that this is the crux of the issue. I always try to get to know personally (even if briefly and cursory) the folks in the organization so that even if they only remember my name that there is a connection of some sort. This applies to all aspects of business and definitely greases the wheels ...

Shouldn't it work the other way around too? Shouldn't the organization keep in touch with its customers? When my bank gets a new "relationship manager", he/she calls to introduce him/herself and invites me to the branch for a chat over a cup of coffee...

Kumar
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Graham Welland on June 16, 2012, 03:06:19 am
Shouldn't it work the other way around too? Shouldn't the organization keep in touch with its customers? When my bank gets a new "relationship manager", he/she calls to introduce him/herself and invites me to the branch for a chat over a cup of coffee...

Kumar

Kumar,

Yes it should!! but being a realist I've found that some effort on my behalf makes up for the disappointment of waiting for the vendor/dealer to reach out on their own.

I'm in the sales business myself for products that cost millions of $$$ and even then if I waited for a vendor or partner to go out of their way to contact me, I'd be disappointed so I prefer to nullify the negative issues and be proactive whether I need to be or not.

For the MFDB vendors that I've dealt with, this should be a wake up call to make the effort to contact your customers because this stuff matters a LOT and to be honest a social connection is probably the the difference between me spending $k's with you or with a better communicating dealer!
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Graham Welland on June 16, 2012, 03:11:31 am
Does it need to be this complicated? I just want to buy the thing, not make friends :-).

I'd rather have lower prices and less friendship, and then just afford a second back (although a DSLR probably would do as a backup these days) and get the repair when there's time.

In an ideal world maybe. Ultimately though I think that relationships matter a LOT.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: ondebanks on June 16, 2012, 10:39:04 am
All this stuff about the need for "relationships" strikes me as odd...and actually unprofessional.

The fact that David didn't have a relationship with an LA based Phase One dealer led to the fact he couldn't get a quick emergency back to keep shooting...

I have no idea of the professional pressures that David faced, but it does seem apt to describe his situation as an "emergency", as you have done.

Now when you call the emergency services, what happens? The dispatcher sends the nearest available ambulance to get you that defibrillator asap. You don't have to be a barbecue-buddy with the ambulance driver, or even know his name. And even if you once insulted the local fire chief, he still is going to come sirens-blaring and put your house-fire out because that's his job. He won't say "sorry pal, our relationship is poor: you'll have to get the fire service from some other city".

The fact that the Phase One VA Warranty does not operate in this "emergency services", nearest-and-fastest-and-no-relationship-needed way might need to be looked at again. It certainly is how David expected to be served, having paid handsomely for that VA warranty.

Ray

Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: ziocan on June 16, 2012, 05:45:15 pm
No better glass than canon ?  Do you know about a brand called: Rodenstock ?  or Shneider ?  i might even direct you to Leitz.. ?

I did not explain myself properly.
"Better glass" as one brand only being better than anything else, does not exist.
there are great lenses from few different brands. For example: Zeiss, Schneider or Leica to name a few.
IMO the L series from Canon does not belong to the category of "glass better than anything else" as many fanboys love to believe.
.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: ziocan on June 16, 2012, 06:02:46 pm
BTW, When we spend 40 or 50 grands for a car, it comes with a booklet full of phone numbers where you can find "someone" who will come to rescue you within a couple of hours, no matter how good is your relationship with the dealer who sold you the car.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: bcooter on June 17, 2012, 02:36:53 pm
Since the beginning of digital capture and forums there have been 3 basic subjects, replayed a thousand times.

1.  Medium Format is better (or not better) than 35mm.

It depends on what you shoot, but the cold hard reality is for 99.9% of all professional work, no client asks for more than 22mp.   You may believe they do, tell them they need to, etc. etc. etc., but in reality if you process out and uprezz and sharpen a file properly, do expert post production and shoot a pretty picture, nobody will talk about the megapixels.   Nobody.

2.  Medium Format costs too much.

Who cares?  Really if it costs Phase or Blad $2 or 2 million to make a camera back,  they sell them for what they can get, just like everyone else in the commercial world sells everything for as much as they can to insure a profit.

Actually, my medium format backs are probably the cheapest things I own in the long run, because I probably won't replace them for a lot of years, they're not that many moving parts for anything to break and honestly I never bought them because someone made me, I bought them because I wanted to.

Also as time goes by due to low iso and the speed in which we shoot, I use them less, so they get less wear and tear, so at this point they've more than repaid the investment so I just keep them and whether anyone likes it or not I'd spend 3 grand on a 36 mpx nikon before I'd spend 5 grand fixing and old camera back.

Now if you want to talk over priced . . .  go look at ipads, i phones (actually anything that is called I stuff).  hard drives, software, software, software, software and software.    Software.... that's where the real serious money is.

3.  The Value Added Warranty is a must have or it's a waste of money.

I guess it depends on who you are, where you live, what you shoot.  If I lived across the street from a dealer, only worked in a studio and they had my exact back, body and lenses in multiples in stock, I'd see the VAW as worthwhile, but anything past that it's just a fear buy.

It's like blowing the transmission in your audi.   Do you want to spend 15 grand to fix a 25 grand used car, pay 4 grand a year for 4 years of coverage, or just toss the car and sign up for a new one?  It's all a wash in the long run.

Personally I think the VAW us a fear buy, that is all gravy for the dealer.  Since I work everywhere, use Contax and no dealer is going to have a back in my flavor or get one to me in any cost effective time frame, I'lll pass and if the thing breaks, I'll either pay to fix it, or toss it.

The best insurance is backups.  Lots of backups.

Now in reality I don't get the pricing of medium format still backs  when I can buy a military grade RED One for 20 grand, a semi military grade Scarlet for 14 grand and not knowing how any of this stuff is made, it sure seems to me like the cinema cameras are a lot more complicated than that little box that goes on the back of a still camera, but once again I don't know how this stuff is made and hope I never find out.

I'm sure other people will have differing opinions.

IMO

BC


Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: fredjeang on June 17, 2012, 04:43:32 pm
... it sure seems to me like the cinema cameras are a lot more complicated than that little box that goes on the back of a still camera, but once again I don't know how this stuff is made and hope I never find out.


It sure seems to me too...

And Red isn't a giant like Panasonic to play at cutting down prices, they earn quite good money with their cameras they almost could buy Greece, and as pointed, military grade...

I better not find out the tech involved in those little MF boxes called back either, so I still can keep the (naive) idea that we've not been swindled for decades.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: LKaven on June 17, 2012, 06:21:22 pm
... when you call the emergency services, what happens? The dispatcher sends the nearest available ambulance to get you that defibrillator asap. You don't have to be a barbecue-buddy with the ambulance driver, or even know his name. And even if you once insulted the local fire chief, he still is going to come sirens-blaring and put your house-fire out because that's his job. He won't say "sorry pal, our relationship is poor: you'll have to get the fire service from some other city".

A welcome note of sanity. 
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: ndevlin on June 17, 2012, 10:55:27 pm

This thread does seem to highlight a problem in the MFDB business model.  At the price, users expect really exceptional service. A pro shouldn't have to be buds with the guy who runs the company to get that.  But the alternative is a 24/7 call-centre/roadside service type of model. That's gonna cost a ton of money, especially for such a low-volume product, and probably isn't realistic.   

If the economics of it can't sustain that, and the realities of geography in most instances dictate that even the fastest arriving replacement is 24 hours away at a minimum, what's the point of the spend on the VA?  Most users will simply chose to spend the VA $$ on a D800 kit, accelerating - for the reasons Bcooter so lucidly laid-out -- the shift to 35mm.

- N. 
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: JayGarrick on June 18, 2012, 04:05:42 am
I apologize to all those in the thread as well as the OP if I am missing something in regard to this issue but this is what I can ascertain.

I do not go through a local dealer for my digital back.  I don't think any local dealer are going to be interested helping me with obtaining that information as a result.

This seems to be the heart of the problem, no?

To me, a non-professional user of a P25+, David's main issue is with the Company that manufactures the product and not the source that the reseller (Phase One) designates to sell the unit, as it should be.

The way I read the problem is as follows;
Customer buys $40,000 Mercedes in California through a tertiary sales channel (Not a local Mercedes Dealership)
Car dies on California Highway (over the weekend) shortly after purchase leaving customer stranded.
Customer is upset with Mercedes as a whole for not sending a new car within 24 hours. (Mercedes being based in Germany, with local sales offices throughout the world)


Again I don't mean to offend and I apologize if I am missing the nuances of the issue and oversimplifying but should the grievance regarding service (in the above scenario) really be lodged against the Manufacture?  If the "Mercedes" in this scenario was purchased from the Local Dealer, wouldn't the entire conflict be a non-issue?  Isn't that the business model, to sell through local channels so that they can offer support and put a face to the Product?

If you purchase a Phase One back on your own, and not through a local dealer, is it fair to then demand personal support from a global company thousands of miles away, expecting them to somehow manifest a personal relationship with you?  Isn't that a bit unreasonable?  If the back had been purchased from a Local dealer I imagine you would be on a first name basis with the salesperson, have their cell number for an emergency and it's likely that you would have the cell number of the local Phase One rep if you couldn't contact the salesperson.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: HarperPhotos on June 18, 2012, 05:40:40 am
Hi Jay,

Total agree with your comment.

Some years ago my Leaf Aptus 75 died in the middle of a shoot so I rang the New Zealand rep Mike who sent over a replacement Leaf Aptus 65 back with in the hour even though I bought the back from  the Leaf distributor in Australia some years earlier. But unfortunately David was shooting on a Sunday.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: mediumcool on June 18, 2012, 06:06:52 am
If you purchase a Phase One back on your own, and not through a local dealer, is it fair to then demand personal support from a global company thousands of miles away, expecting them to somehow manifest a personal relationship with you?

I believe that the back was purchased from a dealer (where else could it have been bought except through private sale?), because the OP said “I will not give out my dealer's info.”? It sounds as if he was working away from his usual haunts. Another thought is whether he should have/could have checked ahead of time to find a local dealer or dealers, just in case.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: eronald on June 18, 2012, 06:11:35 am


What eventually happened is that when I sent in th deliverables the editorial clients didn't see a difference between the MF and FF frames, which made me question why I was using a slow $20k back that ate batteries and had issues talking to the camera when the Canons worked flawlessly.

If the buyer can't tell the difference in the file quality, and the photographer can't tell the difference in service, well that's the end of Phase's business model with the high product prices and good dealer margins.

As a sidenote, I suspect that not only does any working photographer transport enough 35mm equipment to finish a job, but also there is probably enough Canon or Nikon hanging off the assistant's neck to do same.

Edmund
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: LKaven on June 18, 2012, 07:45:05 am
The way I read the problem is as follows;
Customer buys $40,000 Mercedes in California through a tertiary sales channel (Not a local Mercedes Dealership)
Car dies on California Highway (over the weekend) shortly after purchase leaving customer stranded.
Customer is upset with Mercedes as a whole for not sending a new car within 24 hours. (Mercedes being based in Germany, with local sales offices throughout the world)


Again I don't mean to offend and I apologize if I am missing the nuances of the issue and oversimplifying...

I should note that if you pay Mercedes a premium, they will agree to give you as much on-the-spot service as you require.  But really, if your Mercedes breaks down, then any car could successfully transport you to your destination.  By contrast, the professional depends upon the use of his/her specific investment for day-to-day revenue.

In the case of the IQ-180, there is an implied mutual understanding that Phase One is undertaking advanced R&D to produce a competitive product suitable for professional use.  It is understood that the price will reflect significant R&D costs, and small quantity prices for rare components (eg, an 80MP sensor).  The professional photographer, as a practical necessity, can only afford to pay the premium price if the camera delivers a competitive edge, and, most importantly, is fully supported for /mission critical/ use. 

If the market pressures were different, the terms might be different.  But Phase One doesn't sell enough equipment to amateurs to keep their business afloat.  The only people who can afford to pay that premium for specialized technology are those for whom the use of that technology is paid for by third party interests.  Phase One wants a share of what those third party interests are willing to pay.  In order to get it, they have to ensure the equipment is up and running on a day when $70,000 is being spent on a major campaign shoot.

BTW, I am not complaining about Phase One here myself.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: david.westphal on June 18, 2012, 12:18:34 pm


2. Brent is in LA, and gets the message at 10:43 on Monday. So why doesn't he call David at 10:44 - or even 40 minutes later? Why doesn't he drive down to David's shoot with a replacement back and FW400 cable?

Yes, Phase One honored the letter of the VA warranty. They didn't provide great customer service.

Kumar

This has been my point, for the most part, all alone. 

Thank you.

Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: david.westphal on June 22, 2012, 10:23:06 am
Just found out yesterday that as a result of this thread, Phase One has indicated that they are going to start to import some backs to be used as temporary replacements when IQ series backs go down.

Hey Jeff Schewe.  Found out that you are a PODAS teacher.  What little credibility you had with me is completely gone.  No wonder you attempted to blame me for Phase One's customer service failure.  But I'm still left with one question, why would Phase One hire you to be a PODAS teacher?  Not sure what you have to offer to any PODAS students.  I guess that's the value of those types of programs.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: mediumcool on June 22, 2012, 10:57:43 am
I can guarantee David's client wouldn’t give a rats ass what camera he used.

Simon

Rats have donkeys?
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: phaseoneus on June 26, 2012, 10:04:06 am
Hi Kumar,

You wanted me to reply at the forum so I will, and after reading further into our internal support case I have found procedures that definitively needs to change.

We did fulfill the part of the warranty, but we did not provide excellent service in this matter.

Phase One could and should have done better, if anything then I learned an important lesson from this unfortunate mishap, and things are already changing within my organization.

I already talked to David and explained him that Phase One is to blame for not having IQ units available to replace the unit that "died" on Sunday. - Nobody is to blame but Phase One, it was our product and it was our service level that failed from providing David with a new IQ unit.

As previously mentioned I will do my very best to provide our tech support with several IQ units moving forward, and also I will assure that local Phase One employees are easier reached in case of emergencies like the one we all read about here at this forum. This to help and assist both our customers and our valued partners.

I will continue to read this forum, and I will do my best to provide the service and level of support that we all know is required dealing with professional shooters, weekends or not.

Hope this answers the questions that was asked earlier, and clarifies that we at Phase One take comments in regards to our service and support very seriously.

Best
Claus Pedersen
President - Phase One

Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Kumar on June 26, 2012, 10:55:12 am
Hi Claus,

I'm glad our conversation has resulted in this quick and positive action and that you, as head of Phase One USA, have taken this responsibility personally. All of us have learnt from this episode, and hopefully, such situations will become easier to deal with in future.

Best,
Kumar
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: amsp on June 26, 2012, 11:44:36 am
Kudos to Claus for not spouting corporate BS but actually owning up to the problem and addressing it. This is the kind of behavior I'd like to see from the companies I choose to give my hard earned cash to. Well done.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Schewe on June 26, 2012, 12:25:40 pm
No wonder you attempted to blame me for Phase One's customer service failure.

No, I didn't "blame" you...I said your expectations were unreasonable. I also indicated that the replacement of an IQ back with a P back was a Phase One problem (one and Phase One is addressing).

Quote
But I'm still left with one question, why would Phase One hire you to be a PODAS teacher?

Maybe because I know a lot of stuff...
Title: Re: added value
Post by: mr purdy on June 26, 2012, 03:20:15 pm
"bypassing the dealer who wanted an extra 50,000 to 100,000 yen for acting as postman."

I was in NYC at one of the dealers a couple years ago looking at PhaseOne and Hasselblad backs for our midtown commercial studios, and when I asked what the added value was, the above quote is exactly what he said. He said if it went down, I could bring the back to the dealer, and they would mail it for me!?!
I was expected to pay thousands per year to have them mail something for me if it went down. Wow.

And they may have also offered a free loaner in the mean time, but since the salesman could not even keep the backs connected while I was there testing the cameras (!), I doubt that they would have delivered a working replacement solution. He literally did not know how to keep the cameras connected for 1/2 hour at a time. (they had either software issues, firewire issues, or whatnot). Then he had dead batteries in the test bodies...

Needless to say...I did not purchase from them.

p.s. this was one of the top three MFDB dealers in NY.

So, I have a question.

On average, what are people paying these days for the 5 year "added value"?

P.S. I know shooters at the top of their field - such as http://gregkadelstudios.com/ (http://gregkadelstudios.com/) who regularly shoot mixing backs and Canons ON THE SAME SHOOT, for the same client and never get any complaints about IQ. And looking at the prints, you would never know which camera shot what.
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Paul2660 on June 26, 2012, 03:42:23 pm
Actually having them mail for you is a big deal, at least for me.  I have no "Local Dealer" in Arkansas.  Thus if the
back fails, which my P45+ for various reasons did 2 times, each time you have to ship it to Phase at your cost.  My
insurance policy on the back did and still won't cover shipment to a repair facility.  To ship it with insurance to NYC
is around $500.00.  Fed Exp will only ship an item of this value overnight.  Yes Phase ships your replacement to you
at no extra cost but getting your down back to them is not cheap.  Sure you can ship it without insurance, but that
is a roll of the dice I am not willing to take. 

Insurance policies vary on shipment/coverage, however I was not able to get one that covered "loss or damage during
shipment".  And if you look closely you may find yours doesn't cover it either as many Ins companies see this as outside
of normal coverage issues/and your shipper has insurance.

Paul
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: lance_schad on June 26, 2012, 04:08:45 pm
I have been watching this thread with great interest as reality is that yes things do break, and murphy's law is that they will break at the worst time! Over a weekend and especially on a Sunday is probably a worst case scenario.

Phase One has the best service policies out of any of the Medium Format manufacturers. They offer the loaner provision as part of the VA warranty. It is clearly stated that is next business day replacement, which is M-F.

We at here at DT since we are in largest photo market go one step further for our clients. We have a large number of demo and rental digital backs that we can put into action as loaners if Phase One cannot accommodate it, and the situation calls for it and of course you are customer of ours. If you do not have a VA warranty we will work with you on a rental to keep your production going.

There have been many times when someone has had an issue on set ,wether it is a cable or a hardware failure where we have had the client back up and running in as little as 30 minutes.

I can honestly say that all of the clients of who I work with have all of my contact information which is at the bottom of my all my posts and emails to use whenever they are having an issue. I understand that photographers do not take pictures only during normal business hours. There have been many of them (some probably reading this post now ) that can attest to this.

My motto is if I can reach the phone I'll answer it, if not I will call you or email back as soon as I can. This is my personal promise to the people that I work with and is in addition to the service policies that we at Digital Transitions offer our customers. I cannot guarantee that I can fix the problem right then and there, but I'll make my best effort to.

Also in response to Mr Purdy, we as dealers do more than just mail the digital back to Phase One. We do first line troubleshooting which in many cases alliveiate the need for the back to mailed in, and also provide technical assistance on the hardware and software. That is just some of the value that a Value Added Reseller is supposed to bring to the table.

I am not saying that all VAR's are created equal, some have their Medium Format offerings along with hundreds, if not thousands of other products in catalog or on a website, or there are ones like us who focus on just Medium Format solutions (i.e. Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca, etc)

I am also happy to hear that Claus took notice of the issue and is adding more IQ units to the loaner pool here in the US.

Lance
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: mr purdy on June 26, 2012, 04:18:20 pm
Also in response to Mr Purdy, we as dealers do more than just mail the digital back to Phase One. We do first line troubleshooting which in many cases alliveiate the need for the back to mailed in, and also provide technical assistance on the hardware and software. That is just some of the value that a Value Added Reseller is supposed to bring to the table.

Lance

As I said earlier, these guys I was dealing with (who just dealt with Backs - no Canons, printers, or whatnot) could not even keep the cameras in their own studio running, so I doubt that they could have done us any good as digital techs in a breakdown situation.

So how much does the 5 year "value added" cost??
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: lance_schad on June 26, 2012, 04:33:15 pm
VA Warranty on IQ systems is an additional $4,000 for 5 years and includes extra accessories,Capture One Pro and Rolling case
on a P+ series it is $3,000 for 3 years and includes extra accessories,Capture One Pro and Rolling case.

Here is a knowledge base article on what are the differences between VA and Classic warranties for those interested.

http://www.phaseone.com/Search/Article.aspx?articleid=1898&languageid=1

Lance
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Kumar on June 26, 2012, 11:38:36 pm
Actually having them mail for you is a big deal, at least for me.  I have no "Local Dealer" in Arkansas.  Thus if the
back fails, which my P45+ for various reasons did 2 times, each time you have to ship it to Phase at your cost.  My
insurance policy on the back did and still won't cover shipment to a repair facility.  To ship it with insurance to NYC
is around $500.00.  Fed Exp will only ship an item of this value overnight.  Yes Phase ships your replacement to you
at no extra cost but getting your down back to them is not cheap.  Sure you can ship it without insurance, but that
is a roll of the dice I am not willing to take. 

Insurance policies vary on shipment/coverage, however I was not able to get one that covered "loss or damage during
shipment".  And if you look closely you may find yours doesn't cover it either as many Ins companies see this as outside
of normal coverage issues/and your shipper has insurance.

Paul

In my case, shipping the 132C from Japan to Denmark cost only ~10,000 JPY, with insurance for 750,000 JPY through JapanPost. I spent half an hour at the Customs Office in Kobe for the paperwork to ensure that I would not be charged duty when it was returned to me. For the H20, I sent it to the dealer in Tokyo, insured for 500,000 JPY, again through JapanPost for ~1,000 JPY. Amex picked up the tab on that one - I had to pay only 10%. In both cases, I didn't have to pay for return shipping.

I think Americans are getting ripped off on shipping!

Kumar
Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Pingang on June 27, 2012, 02:14:55 am
A high officer responsible at such personal level makes me feel even happier as a long time Phase backs owner!
Nothing is perfect, but my almost 10 years experience using Phase backs is as perfect as perfect can be.  Hardware, never an issue.  Software, could be better than already very good!

Pingang

Hi Kumar,

You wanted me to reply at the forum so I will, and after reading further into our internal support case I have found procedures that definitively needs to change.

We did fulfill the part of the warranty, but we did not provide excellent service in this matter.

Phase One could and should have done better, if anything then I learned an important lesson from this unfortunate mishap, and things are already changing within my organization.

I already talked to David and explained him that Phase One is to blame for not having IQ units available to replace the unit that "died" on Sunday. - Nobody is to blame but Phase One, it was our product and it was our service level that failed from providing David with a new IQ unit.

As previously mentioned I will do my very best to provide our tech support with several IQ units moving forward, and also I will assure that local Phase One employees are easier reached in case of emergencies like the one we all read about here at this forum. This to help and assist both our customers and our valued partners.

I will continue to read this forum, and I will do my best to provide the service and level of support that we all know is required dealing with professional shooters, weekends or not.

Hope this answers the questions that was asked earlier, and clarifies that we at Phase One take comments in regards to our service and support very seriously.

Best
Claus Pedersen
President - Phase One


Title: Re: DEAD IQ160
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on June 28, 2012, 02:00:38 pm
A high officer responsible at such personal level makes me feel even happier as a long time Phase backs owner!
Nothing is perfect, but my almost 10 years experience using Phase backs is as perfect as perfect can be.  Hardware, never an issue.  Software, could be better than already very good!

Pingang


Also puts into perspective a certain apologist on this threads responses.