Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: Chris_Brown on May 31, 2012, 10:36:41 am

Title: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Chris_Brown on May 31, 2012, 10:36:41 am
I saw this (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/05/31/reliable_source_says_no_chance_apple_will_ax_mac_pro.html) today, and felt a bit better about the future of the Mac Pro line.

I was really dreading a move to Windows. Only because of learning a new interface after 20+ years on a Mac.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: francois on May 31, 2012, 12:30:27 pm
I saw this (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/05/31/reliable_source_says_no_chance_apple_will_ax_mac_pro.html) today, and felt a bit better about the future of the Mac Pro line.

I was really dreading a move to Windows. Only because of learning a new interface after 20+ years on a Mac.

We shall see what happens at the WWDC…
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: aragdog on May 31, 2012, 02:27:45 pm
Per my comment previously, there is not much existing stock at the major distributors, TechData and etc.  That seems to show that they are planning a new release.  This is what happens when a new computer is due to come. Just an advance that has worked in the past.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Chris_Brown on May 31, 2012, 10:07:07 pm
I'd like to find the source to the chart used on this page (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/10/31/apple-questioning-the-future-of-its-mac-pro-line/).
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 31, 2012, 11:49:57 pm
http://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/12/05/25/mac_pro_petition_gains_traction_as_pro_users_seek_information.html

I like this page!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Rhossydd on June 01, 2012, 01:24:00 am
Only because of learning a new interface after 20+ years on a Mac.
Given the substantial changes to the Mac desktop over that time, moving from OSX to W7 would be pretty pain free.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: fredjeang on June 01, 2012, 07:26:40 am
I really don't understand this potential "fear" of switching, in a way or another. I read that many times everywhere.

I think there is a lot of hysteria to be honest. It sounds like a shy virgen girl that sees for the first time a man's ....
Come on!

In this forum, most of the users are quite highly trained and technically skilled on complex softwares etc...and you would tell me that a switching could be difficult?

In a day maximum you're done with the adaptations.

Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 01, 2012, 08:41:47 am
I really don't understand this potential "fear" of switching, in a way or another. I read that many times everywhere.

I think there is a lot of hysteria to be honest. It sounds like a shy virgen girl that sees for the first time a man's ....
Come on!

In this forum, most of the users are quite highly trained and technically skilled on complex softwares etc...and you would tell me that a switching could be difficult?

In a day maximum you're done with the adaptations.

Mostly true, the few things I know I would be missing (I use Win7 10 hours a day 5 days a week) are:

OS level:
- Expose,
- very easy screen sharing with my other macs (I would probably end up changing the whole set),

Applications:
- Raw Developer,
- Pure Music,
- Transmit,
- Scrivener,
- Fotomagico,
- Potentially Final Cut Pro X because I would need to buy an expensive Adobe license.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Chris_Brown on June 01, 2012, 09:58:02 am
http://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/12/05/25/mac_pro_petition_gains_traction_as_pro_users_seek_information.html

I like this page!

Indeed!


Quote
In this forum, most of the users are quite highly trained and technically skilled on complex softwares etc...and you would tell me that a switching could be difficult?

Although my primary job is photographer, I manage a small network of eight computers, each with a primary function (server, workstation, tether station, etc.). It is far easier for me, a photographer, to manage this OSX-based network than it would if it were a network of Windows boxes. Everything is easier: installation of updates, installation of new software, drive maintenance, monitor calibration, printer calibration (although Lion has botched this). Plus, it is far easier for me to trouble shoot because of my familiarity with the product line.

I've visited/watched friends at other companies work on their Windows-based network and want no part of it.

The one thing I would enjoy, over a few pints, would be to build a workstation from the mother board up. That'd be fun, and it's not something I can do with a store-bought Mac. I've toyed with a friend's hackintosh (http://www.hackintosh.com/), and if Apple bails on Big Iron, it may be a good alternative to a Windows workstation.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: 149113 on June 02, 2012, 01:19:34 am
Indeed!


Although my primary job is photographer, I manage a small network of eight computers, each with a primary function (server, workstation, tether station, etc.). It is far easier for me, a photographer, to manage this OSX-based network than it would if it were a network of Windows boxes. Everything is easier: installation of updates, installation of new software, drive maintenance, monitor calibration, printer calibration (although Lion has botched this). Plus, it is far easier for me to trouble shoot because of my familiarity with the product line.

I've visited/watched friends at other companies work on their Windows-based network and want no part of it.

The one thing I would enjoy, over a few pints, would be to build a workstation from the mother board up. That'd be fun, and it's not something I can do with a store-bought Mac. I've toyed with a friend's hackintosh (http://www.hackintosh.com/), and if Apple bails on Big Iron, it may be a good alternative to a Windows workstation.

I've got a Hackintosh running at home and it not only scores better on every benchmark vs a Mac Pro, it also cost 60% less to build and I was able to customize everything including overclocking.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: budjames on June 02, 2012, 05:07:53 am
I'm running the early 2007 MacPro 8-core with 32GB RAM, OWC SSD boot drive, 2x1.5TB Raid0 and 2x2TB Raid0. The OS has been upgraded to every new release that has come along since I bought it and is currently 10.7.4. It's my main Lightroom/Photoshop workstation. I have 2 external eSata 5 bay SansDigital Raid towers connected via a Highpoint eSata card.

I've upgraded the graphics card to the ATI Radeon HD 5770. It very fast and, more importantly, it's almost silent. The MacPro's cooling fans and drives are louder. The original ATI 1900 (I think that's the model number) was very loud when the cooling fan was running.

It runs great even though it is now officially 5 years old as of this past April. It is the first MP 8-core that my local independent Apple store delivered.

I would be interested in a new MacPro for the promise of Thunderbolt speed, but the peripherals are not readily available yet anyway, so no hurry.

A smaller form factor, if possible, for the new MacPro would be nice.

Cheers.
Bud
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: RobSaecker on June 02, 2012, 12:31:06 pm
I'd like to find the source to the chart used on this page (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/10/31/apple-questioning-the-future-of-its-mac-pro-line/).

Apple's quarterly financial reports: http://investor.apple.com/
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: digitaldog on June 02, 2012, 01:07:00 pm
Given the substantial changes to the Mac desktop over that time, moving from OSX to W7 would be pretty pain free.

Pretty painful for me. I’ve done it but it isn’t something I ever look forward to.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: mediumcool on June 05, 2012, 03:10:57 am
Given the substantial changes to the Mac desktop over that time, moving from OSX to W7 would be pretty pain free.

Apple admitted some years ago that, once working in an app, there was not a lot of difference between the then platforms.

The touted differences were (and are) in working with multiple apps at once, navigating and file management (also in things like packages, which are a terrific way to consolidate installers and some file formats). I haven’t used Windows since XP (teaching multimedia at a tertiary level) so can’t comment on recent updates, but things like Exposé, Default Folder, Jumpcut, Mailtab and Menutab, and others that I use every day would need very good equivalents if I was ever to switch from OSX. System-wide services and the reliability of drag-and-drop are icing on the cake.

Interesting to know what similar/equivalent system enhancements are available for Windows.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: budjames on June 05, 2012, 06:52:55 am
It looks like there is hope for a new MacPro debut at the WWDC in a few weeks.

Check out this story on 9to5mac: http://9to5mac.com/2012/06/04/apple-to-update-most-of-its-mac-lineup-and-multiple-accessories-at-wwdc/ (http://9to5mac.com/2012/06/04/apple-to-update-most-of-its-mac-lineup-and-multiple-accessories-at-wwdc/)

Cheers.
Bud
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: francois on June 05, 2012, 06:55:07 am
It looks like there is hope for a new MacPro debut at the WWDC in a few weeks.

Check out this story on 9to5mac: http://9to5mac.com/2012/06/04/apple-to-update-most-of-its-mac-lineup-and-multiple-accessories-at-wwdc/ (http://9to5mac.com/2012/06/04/apple-to-update-most-of-its-mac-lineup-and-multiple-accessories-at-wwdc/)

Cheers.
Bud

Actually, WWDC is in less than a week away.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: mediumcool on June 05, 2012, 07:39:31 am
WWDC starts Monday, the 11th of June.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Farmer on June 05, 2012, 06:03:45 pm
The touted differences were (and are) in working with multiple apps at once, navigating and file management (also in things like

Any file management application/process less than Directory Opus (which is basically everything else) is a disadvantage :-)
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Josh-H on June 05, 2012, 09:26:24 pm
And HERE (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/05/mac-pro-to-finally-see-updates-next-week/)
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: kencameron on June 06, 2012, 03:22:15 am
Mostly true, the few things I know I would be missing (I use Win7 10 hours a day 5 days a week) are:

...
- Scrivener,


Scrivener for Windows is a fine product.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 06, 2012, 03:45:18 am
Scrivener for Windows is a fine product.

Thanks, I wasn't aware they had a Win version.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: aragdog on June 06, 2012, 02:02:32 pm
Check the site MacRumors.com and all is there.  All desktops and laptops will be upgraded.  And the Mac Pro as predicted a couple of weeks ago.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 11, 2012, 05:15:30 pm
I guess that things are clear now...

No upgrade at all would have left some hope that the next gen Mac Pro had a chance to come a bit later... but a minor upgrade now must mean that this is just a final stretch of a dead product line.

I do hope I am wrong, but frankly, the only thing coming to my mind now about Apple is "stupid company, I am done with you".

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Eric Kellerman on June 11, 2012, 05:47:53 pm
I do hope I am wrong, but frankly, the only thing coming to my mind now about Apple is "stupid company, I am done with you".

Cheers,
Bernard

Do you mean to say a nice new shiny 15-inch laptop with a Retina display won't meet your requirements?

Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 11, 2012, 05:55:25 pm
Do you mean to say a nice new shiny 15-inch laptop with a Retina display won't meet your requirements?

It won't help much with my SCSI320 raid5 unit and I hate glossy screens (having been using a macbook pro with one). Besides my 5 years old mac pro has 32gb RAM, a fast raid scratch disk,... The intend was to fit the new Pro with no less than 64gb.

So no... the new macbook pro seems like a very nice laptop that I would probably have bought at some point of time to replace my macbook pro, but is not at all an attractive proposition as far as being a Pro successor.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 11, 2012, 06:19:36 pm
It won't help much with my SCSI320 raid5 unit and I hate glossy screens (having been using a macbook pro with one). Besides my 5 years old mac pro has 32gb RAM, a fast raid scratch disk,... The intend was to fit the new Pro with no less than 64gb.

So no... the new macbook pro seems like a very nice laptop that I would probably have bought at some point of time to replace my macbook pro, but is not at all an attractive proposition as far as being a Pro successor.

Cheers,
Bernard


I don't think this is the next generation.  Its not Ivy Bridge ( i don't think).  Its just a stop gap IMO. 

My advice...one word.  Hackintosh :)
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: kers on June 11, 2012, 06:25:08 pm
Ai, this 'new' macPro is hardly an upgrade. Now the laptop has USB3 and the MacPro has not.. ridiculous!
They only put some new processors in as you could do yourself.
It is very blunt how they neglected the professional user the last years.
Like with Final Cut Pro.. first they build something up with a lot of energy and then they break it down without any reason.
With little effort they could make everybody happy.. I don't understand their logic...
Too bad
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: kers on June 11, 2012, 06:38:10 pm
My advice...one word.  Hackintosh :)

I just had a look on some hackintosh pages and it reminded me of one of the reasons i always liked the Mac... It just works !

I do not want to build my car- I do not want to become an expert in building computers and to know all the quirks-  I am a user ...that needs a fast computer
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 11, 2012, 06:40:18 pm
My advice...one word.  Hackintosh :)

No way I going there... I am looking for a trouble free and reliable platform to work...  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Mr. Rib on June 11, 2012, 07:01:42 pm
I'm on the same boat as Bernard. And after today's keynote, I am starting the search for a different platform. As much as I like OS and as much as I dislike Windows (mainly aesthetic reasons though), I'm switching. I won't be waiting like an idiot another year or several months to read a *gossip* that there might be an update of Mac pro line somewhere in 2017... I simply don't care anymore. I feel abandoned by them and they totally let me down.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: AlastairMoore on June 11, 2012, 07:54:04 pm
I'm on the same boat as Bernard. And after today's keynote, I am starting the search for a different platform. As much as I like OS and as much as I dislike Windows (mainly aesthetic reasons though), I'm switching. I won't be waiting like an idiot another year or several months to read a *gossip* that there might be an update of Mac pro line somewhere in 2017... I simply don't care anymore. I feel abandoned by them and they totally let me down.

Just out of interest, what does a Mac Pro do for you that a top of the line iMac doesn't? I run a Mac Pro at work - it's a couple of years old, as are most, I guess - and have a fully specced 27" iMac at home. My iMac far outperforms my work Mac Pro and is just as flexible as far as my needs go (as a part time photographer at home - I'm a web developer by day). This is a genuine question - what do you need from a Mac Pro that an iMac can't provide?
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Mr. Rib on June 11, 2012, 08:08:21 pm
Modularity. Expandability. Access to HDs / RAM if need be without need of servicing. More ports, a monitor of my choice (yes, you can connect a second monitor to the iMac but I'd still want to choose both displays by myself). Better performance (yes, I expect a Mac Pro to be significantly faster than iMac line- and since it's not the case nowadays, I'm disappointed).
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: jjj on June 11, 2012, 08:15:28 pm
Just out of interest, what does a Mac Pro do for you that a top of the line iMac doesn't? I run a Mac Pro at work - it's a couple of years old, as are most, I guess - and have a fully specced 27" iMac at home. My iMac far outperforms my work Mac Pro and is just as flexible as far as my needs go (as a part time photographer at home - I'm a web developer by day). This is a genuine question - what do you need from a Mac Pro that an iMac can't provide?
Not having to use a crappy screen that is better suited to doing one's make up than professional graphics work is the most obvious reason, not to mention that I use dual [and identical] monitors. I also have 6 hard drives in the machine and another 4 'internal' drives via an eSata card and will probably add another 4. Which probably works out cheaper than getting an iMac and adding expensive thunderbolt HDs, if you can even find ones you want. Not LaCie for example.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: jjj on June 11, 2012, 08:20:29 pm
I'm on the same boat as Bernard. And after today's keynote, I am starting the search for a different platform. As much as I like OS and as much as I dislike Windows (mainly aesthetic reasons though)
Windows unlike OSX is very customisable, so you can make it look like OSX if you want. I used to skin XP to look like Panther.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: jjj on June 11, 2012, 08:28:03 pm
Any file management application/process less than Directory Opus (which is basically everything else) is a disadvantage :-)
I so wish DOpus was available for OSX, a fantastically powerful programme and amazing time saver. I use it on my PC via the network to do file management on my Macs as it's so much easier.
And if it wasn't for PathFinder [which is rather pathetic compared to DOpus] which allows me to bypass the truly awful Finder, I would ditch OSX without hesitation. It's probably the worst software on the planet and has been left to rot and die since the 90s.

Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 11, 2012, 08:51:50 pm
No way I going there... I am looking for a trouble free and reliable platform to work...  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard


Mine is flawless and runs perfectly every day.  I skipped Sandy bridge but I'll be doing a Ivy soon. 
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 11, 2012, 08:55:26 pm
I just had a look on some hackintosh pages and it reminded me of one of the reasons i always liked the Mac... It just works !

I do not want to build my car- I do not want to become an expert in building computers and to know all the quirks-  I am a user ...that needs a fast computer


You really don't need to be an expert and the installs are quite vanilla if you use the right parts and software.

Tonymac is he very best IMO hack site and he has custom build list that work great.  If you can use a screwdriver you can build a desktop hackintosh.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 11, 2012, 11:10:45 pm
You really don't need to be an expert and the installs are quite vanilla if you use the right parts and software.

Tonymac is he very best IMO hack site and he has custom build list that work great.  If you can use a screwdriver you can build a desktop hackintosh.

That's not the point. The point is the lack of support if/when something goes wrong.

I have built and had built custom PCs before, it is not a matter of basic tinkering skills.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 11, 2012, 11:46:35 pm
That's not the point. The point is the lack of support if/when something goes wrong.

I have built and had built custom PCs before, it is not a matter of basic tinkering skills.

Cheers,
Bernard


Short of a Dell, do you think you will get support?  I would rather deal with it myself, but YMMV.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 12, 2012, 12:30:43 am
Short of a Dell, do you think you will get support?  I would rather deal with it myself, but YMMV.


HP should be able to provide support as well. Besides Sony, NEC, Fujitsu,... and many other companies do provide support to their customers still.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: ziocan on June 12, 2012, 03:01:36 am
Why does anybody need support for a desktop computer is hard to believe.
most of you guys are plenty tech savvy.
when something breaks, which is rare, you just replace the part.

i do not have an hackintosh, only genuine macs, but i can see how some people are comfortable using one.
I actually know a few who do use it successfully fr high end editing and PS work.
I have visited the Tony mac site a few times and it seems that building one is fairly straightforward.
plus when you buy the parts for building one, they all come with a minimum of 3 years warranty. that sound almost as apple care.

Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: hjulenissen on June 12, 2012, 03:08:15 am
Not having to use a crappy screen that is better suited to doing one's make up than professional graphics work is the most obvious reason, not to mention that I use dual [and identical] monitors. I also have 6 hard drives in the machine and another 4 'internal' drives via an eSata card and will probably add another 4. Which probably works out cheaper than getting an iMac and adding expensive thunderbolt HDs, if you can even find ones you want. Not LaCie for example.
Did you consider using network attached storage? For a photographer, I would think that the security of RAID and additional backup would be even more important than the "access anywhere" property of such systems.

I have a mixture of stationary and laptop, mac and PCs. When working in any one application I don't think that the choice of OS matters that much. Some quirks with mouse buttons and keyboard shortcuts, and you are good to go.

-h
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: jjj on June 12, 2012, 03:12:31 am
Why does anybody need support for a desktop computer is hard to believe.
most of you guys are plenty tech savvy.
when something breaks, which is rare, you just replace the part.
Because when something goes wrong with computers finding the fault can be a complete and utter bitch. I had a flakey PC I put together some years back and eventually discovered a dodgy IDE cable caused all the problems. All my Apple kit bar my Nano has had to go back to Apple store for numerous reasons and although they certainly do not 'just work' as advertised, the aftersales is very, very good.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: jjj on June 12, 2012, 03:15:48 am
Did you consider using network attached storage? For a photographer, I would think that the security of RAID and additional backup would be even more important than the "access anywhere" property of such systems.

Did you not consider that I already use RAID and have back up too? ;)
Beisdes LR does not run off the Network and the catalogue/previews are not on my Mac HD.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: hjulenissen on June 12, 2012, 04:02:22 am
Did you not consider that I already use RAID and have back up too? ;)
It seems to me that you argue against laptops with:
1. You need a large amount of storage/drives
2. Thunderbolt HDs are expensive.

My suggestion was to get a NAS. Does a NAS + a MBP not fit with your requirements?
Quote from: jjj
I also have 6 hard drives in the machine and another 4 'internal' drives via an eSata card and will probably add another 4. Which probably works out cheaper than getting an iMac and adding expensive thunderbolt HDs, if you can even find ones you want. Not LaCie for example.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: graeme on June 12, 2012, 04:47:08 am
Just out of interest, what does a Mac Pro do for you that a top of the line iMac doesn't? I run a Mac Pro at work - it's a couple of years old, as are most, I guess - and have a fully specced 27" iMac at home. My iMac far outperforms my work Mac Pro and is just as flexible as far as my needs go (as a part time photographer at home - I'm a web developer by day). This is a genuine question - what do you need from a Mac Pro that an iMac can't provide?

When my 2007 Mac Pros' main hard drive started malfunctioning recently I replaced it in 15 minutes. When a friends' 2007 iMacs' hard drive started malfunctioning recently it had to be sent away to have the drive replaced ( at much greater expense ). The Pro is much more convenient than an iMac in the sense that you can have 4 hard drives ( boot, files, PS scratch and a nice big Time Machine disc ) all packaged up in a neat beautifully cooled box which you can forget about: No ejecting external drives before you shut down - what's that all about?

Not interested in NAS or Hackintoshes - no disrespect to anyone using them, the Pro suits my needs I just don't want to spend any more time messing around with computer hardware. ( The software gives me enough headaches ).

I want to squeeze another year or two out of my Mac. If an all in one is the only Mac option available after that I'll replace it with a PC.

Regards

Graeme
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 12, 2012, 04:52:27 am
Why does anybody need support for a desktop computer is hard to believe.
most of you guys are plenty tech savvy.
when something breaks, which is rare, you just replace the part.

i do not have an hackintosh, only genuine macs, but i can see how some people are comfortable using one.

plus when you buy the parts for building one, they all come with a minimum of 3 years warranty. that sound almost as apple care.

How about
- The time needed to debug?
- The possibility that at any point of time Apple might find a way to prevent OSX from installing on non Apple H/W?
- Possible compatibility issues between some H/W and OSX (lack of drivers,...)?
- The time needed to put together in the first place a machine that is silent, reliable and flaw free accross a wide range of scenarios and while using various peripherals?
- ...

Frankly, I see zero value of going through that on OSX. If you want to tinker, go Windows. Win7 is designed from the ground to deal with non certified H/W while OSX is absolutely not.

Cheers,
Bernard


Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Farmer on June 12, 2012, 07:19:25 am
Regarding Hackintosh, there's also the small issue of it being a violation of the licence terms.  Not everyone (particularly those running a business) is prepared to risk legal issues.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: kers on June 12, 2012, 08:11:28 am
According to some sources like the french hardmac.com :
"
According to David Pogue, who is often well informed, the Mac Pro is not dead, new models are under way and will be released in 2013. Same thing for the iMac.
It's not much but it's probably enough to give back a little bit of hope to all pro customers that fear the disappearance of the Mac Pro, especially if you add to that the answer that Tim Cook provided to a worried customer who inquired about the Mac Pro:
Our pro customers are really important to us...don't worry as we're working on something really great for later next year."
"

So perhaps there is some light at the end of the tunnel- still, if it is true, it is not very professional to do upgrades that slow

Other sources claim Apple simply had to put in new processors because the old ones are not produced anymore....  so this also says something about the slow upgrade policy of Apple...

Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: mediumcool on June 12, 2012, 08:27:11 am
Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that Apple uses logic boards from Intel for the Mac Pro. Are boards incl. TB and USB3 that are suitable for a Mac Pro available yet?
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 12, 2012, 10:06:35 am
Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that Apple uses logic boards from Intel for the Mac Pro. Are boards incl. TB and USB3 that are suitable for a Mac Pro available yet?

We are just starting to see the major board manufacturers offering IvyBridge boards with Thunderbolt...very recent.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 12, 2012, 02:37:31 pm
HP should be able to provide support as well. Besides Sony, NEC, Fujitsu,... and many other companies do provide support to their customers still.

Cheers,
Bernard


For what its worth...

http://www.pcworld.com/article/244481/desktop_pc_reliability_and_satisfaction_dell_and_hp_home_pcs_get_poor_grades.html
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: jjj on June 12, 2012, 05:00:46 pm
It seems to me that you argue against laptops with:
1. You need a large amount of storage/drives
2. Thunderbolt HDs are expensive.

My suggestion was to get a NAS. Does a NAS + a MBP not fit with your requirements?
I have a MBP and I also have a NAS as well as lots of internal HDs.
MBP is OK when out and about, but not as nice or as fast to use as my MP.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 12, 2012, 06:18:22 pm
For those who decide to believe and can afford to wait one year, this may be good news:

http://www.macworld.com/article/1167247/cook_apple_planning_professional_mac_for_2013.html

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Chris_Brown on June 13, 2012, 08:22:54 am
http://www.macworld.com/article/1167247/cook_apple_planning_professional_mac_for_2013.html

This is great news! Let's hope it sticks.

I suspect they'll have USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt connectivity. And hopefully retain FW800 for those of us with legacy hardware.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Ellis Vener on June 13, 2012, 01:12:03 pm
I also saw in the keynote that Cook said an FW800 to Thunderbolt adapter is on the way.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: John.Murray on June 13, 2012, 07:16:50 pm
Although a hackintosh sounds like a great idea - it is in violation of Apple's license agreement.  I don't think anyone offering professional services would be prudent putting themselves in that position, I certainly won't.....
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: John.Murray on June 13, 2012, 07:26:35 pm
Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that Apple uses logic boards from Intel for the Mac Pro. Are boards incl. TB and USB3 that are suitable for a Mac Pro available yet?

Form factor is different, not ATX or eATX - even the power supply connectors are non-standard
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 14, 2012, 01:08:36 pm
Why does anybody need support for a desktop computer is hard to believe.
most of you guys are plenty tech savvy.
when something breaks, which is rare, you just replace the part.

i do not have an hackintosh, only genuine macs, but i can see how some people are comfortable using one.
I actually know a few who do use it successfully fr high end editing and PS work.
I have visited the Tony mac site a few times and it seems that building one is fairly straightforward.
plus when you buy the parts for building one, they all come with a minimum of 3 years warranty. that sound almost as apple care.



1.  I used to think this.  With computers being so easy to work with I found it hard to imagine others didn't find it as easy.  And then I realized I'd been on the first wave of PC's from way back so what was easy for me isn't easy for others.  I paid a big chunk of my way through college by offering custom PC builds along with set up and a few hours of instruction.  When I first started it was aimed at students and I was surprised when my main client based turned out to be professors and other academics.  This was my first exposure to people who just wanted a computer to work and to not think about anything else.  They wanted to put it in simple terms like "I want the latest best computer but not extreme" and then to trust the person building it for them to give them just that.

This is basically what people have been doing with Dell, HP, etc.. for years.  They catch a few buzzwords like "Pentium" and "VGA" and figure if their computer has these things then the rest of it must be good too.  But many have found out the "service" is lacking and that they really can't trust these companies to act in their (the customers) best interest.

So.. a career and a half later.. here I am offering custom build PC's.  Again.  Except now my clients are photographers and most recently day-traders who want 10+ screen configs.  Same mindset though "give me the latest and greatest but don't go overboard"  or  "go overboard, money is no object.."   I started off doing this for one workshop client as a favor, he told someone else who told someone else, and it didn't take long to turn it into a rather profitable use of my time.

I think what brings most of these clients to me.. is trust.  They've learned through years of experience the Dell, HP, etc, isn't their friend.  They think I am.  What I really am is 100% honest with them, even if I know I'll loose a client.  So it works.  They want someone else to think about the design, build it, and in some cases to set it up.  And they really like having someone a phone call away which has turned into extra income.

When I move back to Thailand in a few years I'm seriously thinking about offering a concierge service and corning the day-trader market.  These guys have a host of issues they're dealing with operating from their locations in a third world country, and most that I've met are really good at figuring out that even if they're tech savvy, their time is more profitable trading than it is fixing PC's.  Plus I've found I like these guys, mostly independent self-sufficient folks with a quick mind and who grasp the obvious faster than the average bear.  I've had more than a few offer to put me on "retainer" already.. they know it can break, but when it does they want the best insurance.  Me.

So ya, there is a lot of room for support services in the PC/Mac world.  And there are people more than willing to pay for real support they can count on.    Other companies have tried it with "gold support" type services, often charging $500 or more for a three year period. but they haven't got it yet.  The people willing to pay $500 and a lot more.. want to know the first name of the guy who fixes their computer (and his phone number).. When they need a custom workstation on their new 50 foot boat, or their vacation home set up, or what equipment is needed to get the most out of the area they operate in.. they do not want to call a company and talk to a guy earning $10 a hour for reading prompts from his screen to customers, and always get a new guy every time they call.  They really want their concierge computer guy.  I'm constantly surprised by just how much they're willing to pay for this service.  To them it's money well spent.


2.  They are.  And I don't think Steve Job's will be knocking on anyone's door mentioning the EULA's.. Assuming everyone actually owns the software they're operating with I just don't see enforcement happening.  First, I don't think it's high on their list of priorities or even on the top 1000.. and second, it would be extremely costly to learn just who decided to build and use their own Hackentosh.. what will they do, bug your phone?  Just don't see it.. 

I know the Mac guys want to think their hardware is special, and that Apple somehow buys their components from the same guy selling magic beans, or the electronics have some design edge that makes them special.. but they don't.  Apple learned (finally) that PC hardware was pretty damn good, and because there was such a huge market cheap too.  And by using Intel they could put all their resources into design (pretty boxes).  And marketing.  Their marketing is superb, the fanboy base is huge and they're dedicated.  The masters of Kool-aid..   
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: lfeagan on June 14, 2012, 11:43:38 pm
Indeed, Apple is not going to come after any individuals building a hackintosh for their personal use using a paid-for copy of OS X. (Companies build them en-masse is another matter). Ignoring the legal issues, it would generate a fair bit of negative PR. Secondly, the court filing fees alone which are typically around $300, would add up rather quickly. Their damages would likely be the cost of the software (so, pay $300 to get $30 back = not a smart move). In terms of what actions they can actually take, as opposed to what the EULA claims they can do (which often times leads one to believe they can hold your first born child hostage), it likely would boil down to removal of the software from your system and forfeiting the media to Apple. On the whole, not such a big deal. Besides, they aren't going to do this. Hackintoshes simply do not impact them financially in any significant way as nearly all of the people who build them would not have ever purchased Apple hardware. They are generally built as a low-cost alternative, often times in a dual boot scenario to tinker with OS X while keeping Windows for gaming.

I have a hackintosh built from SuperMicro server components and am quite happy with it. It is far from low-end. Any notion that Apple has some special ability to make more reliable parts than other manufacturers targeting the workstation/server markets is untrue. Like most things with computers, it is all about how much you want to pay. If you buy a $50 motherboard it will not have the same features or thoughtfulness to its design and components used as a $400 motherboard.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: lfeagan on June 14, 2012, 11:58:16 pm
Craig, what is in your current hackintosh build, if you don't mind.

For me it goes like this
Case: SuperMicro SC743TQ-865B-SQ
Mobo: SuperMicro X8DA3
CPU: 2x X5550 (Quad-core 2.66GHz)
Mem: 6x4GB
Disk: 1xSamsung SSD 830 512GB, 2xIntel 160GB RAID0, 4x WD Caviar Black 1TB
Video: PNY GTX 580

What motherboard were you thinking of for your E5 build? I am thinking of using the SuperMicro X9DA7 for my next hackintosh. Someone has the X9DAI running Lion, so getting it working shouldn't be much of an issue. I haven't quite decided on the right balance of cores to clock for the CPU selection. I am thinking 6 cores/socket seems like the right place to be. The 8core/socket options have the clock drop like a rock.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: tived on June 15, 2012, 06:01:38 am
where can i find a good guide for a Hackingtos - It would be interesting to see a OSX run at 4+ Ghz on 12 cores+12HT and 96Gb of ram.

As for Building your own PC, no its not easy to build a good solid PC. You need to have knowledge and know what works with what, just like photography.

I can understand Bernard's wants for support, afterall, we are photographers and computer techs, even though sometimes it feels the other way around. It definately doesn't hurt to know your way around in your computer box.

I am fortunate to have good friends with computer shops, and access to their resources, but its sometimes time consuming. As I also provide support for other photogs in their digital endeavours, I often see photogs struggle with their systems in particular Mac users, as soon as it does not behave as expected its arms up in the air and scream!!!! It happens a lot - despite popular perception that Mac's don't fail, they do as lovely as they are, they do fail, as does PC's they are just not as greacious looking ;-)

Having support is the single most important thing for your computer - down time is expensive, because it always happens when you most need to get something done.

Just going back to some of the previous threads, where the mention of RAID and NAS.

RAID is great for improved speed when using RAID-0, but no redundancy - you need to know that if your RAID-0 goes down its hard to repair, but it can be repaired!!!! and the data can be recovered.

RAID with redundancy, every other RAID but RAID-0, is a good way for a single drive failure to protect your data, there are RAID configs for multiple Disk redundancy as well. However it should not be seen as a Backup.

I do setup Macpro's with two WD RE4's in RAID-1 to give the client two copies of their working data should one fail, but I still insist and impliment secondary Backup devices and strategies, where the client have at least 4 copies, two on side and two off site.

This brings me to NAS, Network Attached Storage, to me the advantage of this is that multiple computers can access this data at anytime and should your main machine fail you can still access this via a second computer. However, not all NAS are created equal, and most are really slow, in particular when you are trying to retrive whole multi-gigabyte jobs.
I don't own myself one of these units but I would highly recommend Synology NAS drives, and get a 8-drive unit, this can also be daisy-chained to multiple units later should your need require this. I know that a lot of photo have gotten the Drobo bug, and though its not a bad solution, it is by no means a great one. Its slow, and rebuild times takes forever. but again alot of Photog/Mac shop are flogging them to photogs who know no better.

So have raid in your box, know what the raid level is providing you and have NAS storage as your back up, plus have another backup external to your premises.

Mac users - welcome to the world of computing! :-) let us know if you need help and we will try to give you the best advise possible at the time.

All the best

Henrik

PS: Macpro R.I.P. you may not have been a fast contender, but certainly the prettiest :-)
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Josh-H on June 15, 2012, 07:25:39 am
Quote
RAID is great for improved speed when using RAID-0, but no redundancy - you need to know that if your RAID-0 goes down its hard to repair, but it can be repaired!!!! and the data can be recovered.

RAID with redundancy, every other RAID but RAID-0, is a good way for a single drive failure to protect your data, there are RAID configs for multiple Disk redundancy as well. However it should not be seen as a Backup.

Personally, I like and run RAID 0+1 - across 4 drives giving speed and redundancy. Easily accomplished in a mac pro with a raid card and the 4 drive slots. Using 4 x 3TB drives gives 6TB of usable space. Not quite as quick as RAID0 striping all 4 drives. But its a good compromise between speed and redundancy and certainly faster than just raid 1.

Of course, back up to other external drives and off site a must.

The big problem with external NAS is they are in the majority dog slow (unless you spend plenty on a fibre channel NAS or SAN) making them generally unsuitable for photography applications where fast read and write speeds are desired with large files.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 15, 2012, 10:07:47 am
I really don't understand this potential "fear" of switching, in a way or another. I read that many times everywhere.

I think there is a lot of hysteria to be honest. It sounds like a shy virgen girl that sees for the first time a man's ....
Come on!

In this forum, most of the users are quite highly trained and technically skilled on complex softwares etc...and you would tell me that a switching could be difficult?

In a day maximum you're done with the adaptations.


I have no problem with "switching", but with combining multiple platforms. For instance, I use apple mail with MailStewartPro on my laptop, to manage some 14 years of email archives. I can trivially migrate the database itself to windows, but I would lose the auto-import of the new stuff. If my desktop is a mac, I can do things like installing the mysql-server on a linux box somewhere on the LAN and feed new mail into it from both the desktop and the laptop, using mail seamlessly on one or the other. With windows on desktop I can't really do that. That's just one example that I can think of right now, but I honestly have very little experience with windows since XP, because I migrated to linux instead of vista.
The other drawback of windows, for me, is that it has a non-unix command line, so that's another reason why I would dislike having it on my box.
So no, *I* wouldn't be done with adaptations in a day, because for me it's not just a matter of having the close icon on the right side of a window.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 15, 2012, 05:47:53 pm
Personally, I like and run RAID 0+1 - across 4 drives giving speed and redundancy. Easily accomplished in a mac pro with a raid card and the 4 drive slots. Using 4 x 3TB drives gives 6TB of usable space. Not quite as quick as RAID0 striping all 4 drives. But its a good compromise between speed and redundancy and certainly faster than just raid 1.

Of course, back up to other external drives and off site a must.

The big problem with external NAS is they are in the majority dog slow (unless you spend plenty on a fibre channel NAS or SAN) making them generally unsuitable for photography applications where fast read and write speeds are desired with large files.
The landscape for available consumer 'affordable' NAS units has changed for the better in recent months.  There are some very good 4-6 drive systems available in the $800 range (less drives) which will transfer at approx 100mbps over a gigalan with common 3.5" platter drives.  This is faster than most laptop drives and pretty average for a run of the mill internal hard drive.. so for under $2000 you can end up with a 15gb 5 drive system which would be decent for photography applications.  Or in other words, it wouldn't drive you nuts if this was your main storage.  And the extra features of the better units add additional value.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: tived on June 15, 2012, 08:56:24 pm
just to add to the NAS, what makes some the differences in  them IMHO, is their processing power, which gives them the ability to push the data through the cat-5/6 cable, and ofcourse the disk rpm.

but I have also noted that when hooking a NAS up to different speced computers, that the NAS transfer differs, as in the faster the host is the better the transfer speed.
I would again here like to promote the Synology (and I don't own one and i am not affiliated) all I have done is set them up for clients, they are your 800-1000 units for 8disk driveless units and they can boost between 100-200mb/sec over cat5/6 definately worth a thought, and one that I will be getting myself as soon as the funds are available.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: BJL on June 15, 2012, 09:17:27 pm
For those who decide to believe and can afford to wait one year, this may be good news:
http://www.macworld.com/article/1167247/cook_apple_planning_professional_mac_for_2013.html
I am guessing that it is a matter of Apple waiting on Intel to combine Thunderbolt support with its new generation of Xeon processors. And maybe some crazy high resolution graphics support for a 27" or bigger "Retina" display.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: lfeagan on June 15, 2012, 11:53:43 pm
I own a Synology, have used it for two years, and adore it. I practically gush about it and recommend it regularly to friends. I store photos and all sorts of other media on it and share with TVs, Roku, computers, etc for easy access. I have gigabit Ethernet and can saturate a single port.

On the ThunderBolt front, just in case anyone was thinking that would be the road to nirvana to expand their notebook's IO subsystem, sadly it appears that random access pays a heavy penalty due to lack of NCQ. I read an article at Tom's Hardware (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/thunderbolt-performance-z77a-gd80,3205.html) that gave a good overview. Thankfully, sequential access fairs pretty well. There are also some pointers on how things scale when you have more than one device on the port. Worthwhile reading if you think you will be using ThunderBolt in the next few years for your storage needs.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: tived on June 16, 2012, 10:13:03 pm
Thanks for sharing that Ifeagan,
that is really interesting regarding the scaling with multiple devices attached.

thanks

Henrik
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: mediumcool on June 17, 2012, 04:04:11 am
It’s worth remembering that Apple is a hardware company which provides its own OS (Macintosh computers do permit Windows to be installed, and Apple supplies one means of facilitating that).

Given what Apple has charged for its OS in recent years, the hardware is definitely where any profit is made (I have heard that Microsoft will be charging around $85US for each bundled copy of Windows RT). And as has been pointed out, installing and using MacOSX on any hardware not made or authorised by Apple is illegal. As a professional, I make sure there is no illegal software on my computers (all Macintoshes BTW).

So I find the touting of “Hackintoshes” both immoral and rather unprofessional.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 17, 2012, 06:05:16 am
It’s worth remembering that Apple is a hardware company which provides its own OS (Macintosh computers do permit Windows to be installed, and Apple supplies one means of facilitating that).

Given what Apple has charged for its OS in recent years, the hardware is definitely where any profit is made (I have heard that Microsoft will be charging around $85US for each bundled copy of Windows RT). And as has been pointed out, installing and using MacOSX on any hardware not made or authorised by Apple is illegal. As a professional, I make sure there is no illegal software on my computers (all Macintoshes BTW).

So I find the touting of “Hackintoshes” both immoral and rather unprofessional.

1.  So?  This matters why?

2.  Huh?  ANY profit?  No.  $85 as you mention Microsoft charging could be a very significant portion of their profit.  I wouldn't be surprised if they make less than $85 on certain Apple hardware configurations.  IDC reports Apple sold 1.4 million PC's in the US during 2011 and 15.4 million Ipads.  At $85 per unit that's over a billion dollars more than ANY.. Now compute global sales.

If you think the majority of this was Ipads.. and that if they didn't have their own software, and say marketed an Android tablet instead (I know, to some of you that's unthinkable and akin to blasphemy).. do you think they'd have sold 15.4 million (40 million globally) units?  I don't.  They'd be somewhere in the Android tablet makers herd with maybe a 1-2 million sales globally.   It's hard to argue their operating systems don't result in most of their profit.  Again, a far way from "any.."

3.  Umm.. I suppose in the loosest sense of the word.  Very loose.  Kinda like tearing the tag off your mattress don't you think?

3.  I find this statement hostile and almost combative.  It's certainly an insult to the professionals here who rely on custom built machines not offered by Apple to meet their business needs.  More like a slap in the face.  I'm shocked you would judge other forum members in such a negative manner.  Sir, I urge you to reconsider your words.  I would hate to see this thread denigrate from such an incendiary statement.

As to the quality of your post:  I find it inaccurate and judgemental, but often inflammatory posts are such.  It also doesn't consider our first amendment rights.  More, if you give any thought at all to the subject you'll find "hackentosh" builds are almost always built to provide a product not available from Apple and the users do indeed support Apple through their purchase of the OS for the build.  The only impact to Apple would be increased OS sales.   And I don't know a single Hackentosh user who also isn't using a MBP, Ipad, Mini, or at least several other Apple products where they are more appropriate for their tasks.  If you want to "judge" someone, then judge Apple who for years hasn't offered the most popular desktop CPU's (only mobile or server editions) in recent times.  What a disservice to their loyal customer base!

I urge you to give more thought to a subject before making such baseless attacks.  It helps keep a more friendly forum and it would represent you in a more positive light.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 17, 2012, 10:23:01 am
Legality of a hackintosh doesn't concern me much, as it is a very minor breach of EULA, at best. However, the very point of a Mac is that the OS is designed for a very small number of well tested components, and because of that it works better than other stuff, Windows included. The fundamental weakness of Windows is not being able to optimize software and hardware the way Apple can, making both.

Since Lion and Windows 7 seem to be very similar in most respects, and Windows is better suited to working with a wide pool of components from various vendors, this makes a hackintosh an inferior solution, by virtue of the fact that it's not doing what it's designed for. So basically I don't see why one would go that way - of you want to assemble your own machine, put Windows or Linux on it and problem solved. If you want something that works out of the box and has no compatibility issues, buy a Mac.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: kers on June 17, 2012, 10:28:48 am
It’s worth remembering that Apple is a hardware company which provides its own OS (Macintosh computers do permit Windows to be installed, and Apple supplies one means of facilitating that).

Given what Apple has charged for its OS in recent years, the hardware is definitely where any profit is made (I have heard that Microsoft will be charging around $85US for each bundled copy of Windows RT). And as has been pointed out, installing and using MacOSX on any hardware not made or authorised by Apple is illegal. As a professional, I make sure there is no illegal software on my computers (all Macintoshes BTW).

So I find the touting of “Hackintoshes” both immoral and rather unprofessional.
I guess you are right it would turn out to be not so legal if you would bring it to court.... but it is not unprofessional...
It is Apple that is unprofessional to wait for four year to do an upgrade for the MacPro.
I am sure many of the Hackintosh owners would like to buy a MacPro at todays standards, but there is non ( that is how this item started)
Immoral; idem dito - It is Apple turning its back to the PRO-user- as they did before with Final Cut Pro X
Anyway I do not think Apples profit will be in any way affected by those few Hackintosh- machines...


Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on June 17, 2012, 11:39:27 am
And as has been pointed out, installing and using MacOSX on any hardware not made or authorised by Apple is illegal. As a professional, I make sure there is no illegal software on my computers (all Macintoshes BTW).

3.  Umm.. I suppose in the loosest sense of the word.  Very loose.  Kinda like tearing the tag off your mattress don't you think?
...
I urge you to give more thought to a subject before making such baseless attacks.  It helps keep a more friendly forum and it would represent you in a more positive light.

There's no doubt that installing and using Mac OS on a machine not built by or authorised by Apple is contrary to the EULA, to which you implicitly or explicitly agree when you do the installation. As such, it's a breach of contract, which could, however unlikely it is actually to eventuate, result in your being sued and having to pay damages. It's contrary to your obligations under your local law and hence illegal.

If it's illegal, it's illegal. To quibble about the "loosest sense of the word" is as meaningful as suggesting that a girl can be "a little bit pregnant (in the loosest sense of the word)".

If breaking the law, or encouraging others to break it, isn't unprofessional, what is? Whether a particular illegal act is immoral is, I concede, a rather more relativistic point.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 17, 2012, 04:34:15 pm
There's no doubt that installing and using Mac OS on a machine not built by or authorised by Apple is contrary to the EULA, to which you implicitly or explicitly agree when you do the installation. As such, it's a breach of contract, which could, however unlikely it is actually to eventuate, result in your being sued and having to pay damages. It's contrary to your obligations under your local law and hence illegal.

If it's illegal, it's illegal. To quibble about the "loosest sense of the word" is as meaningful as suggesting that a girl can be "a little bit pregnant (in the loosest sense of the word)".

If breaking the law, or encouraging others to break it, isn't unprofessional
, what is? Whether a particular illegal act is immoral is, I concede, a rather more relativistic point.

Jeremy

1.  You were doing okay up to this point.  Can someone please point out under which penal code such a criminal charge would be made?  Or even what law of your locality/country would be broken?  Hint:  "illegal" does not enjoy the same breadth of application "legal" enjoys.  It's more specific.  


2.  Oh Jeremy.. how do you respond to someone incapable of seeing only black and white?  Certainly you can't suggest to such a person a concept such as color.  BTW - Your analogy needs a bit of work.  I do appreciate the attempt though, it shows a certain amount of conviction however misguided.

3.  My local speed limit on the highway is 65mph.  Our states drivers handbook also states it's more safe to speed up when changing lanes than to slow down (something I wish drivers over the age of retirement would figure out).  You can see the problem?  Laws aren't perfect.  They often need refinement through application and review.   OR..  If we consider the fact that we all drift up/down over our speed limits putting us in violation of an actual real law at least several times in the course of any trip on the highway.. would we be "unprofessional" to suggest an employee/client/self use the highway when driving to work?  And since it's so easy to momentarily exceed posted speed limits on the city streets, there as well?  There are endless comparisons.. we all break laws to different degrees every time we draw a breath.

4.  I recommend the use of smaller words lest we create unintentional smiles..

(For generations there existed a segment of society (often associated with those who wear tinfoil hats) who believed there were actual "mattress police" and lived in fear of falling asleep thereby making them complicit in the crime of mattress tag removal.  Hence, insomnia was born.)   Sherlock Holmes.. (not really, I made that up myself)
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 17, 2012, 04:46:53 pm
Legality of a hackintosh doesn't concern me much, as it is a very minor breach of EULA, at best. However, the very point of a Mac is that the OS is designed for a very small number of well tested components, and because of that it works better than other stuff, Windows included. The fundamental weakness of Windows is not being able to optimize software and hardware the way Apple can, making both.

Since Lion and Windows 7 seem to be very similar in most respects, and Windows is better suited to working with a wide pool of components from various vendors, this makes a hackintosh an inferior solution, by virtue of the fact that it's not doing what it's designed for. So basically I don't see why one would go that way - of you want to assemble your own machine, put Windows or Linux on it and problem solved. If you want something that works out of the box and has no compatibility issues, buy a Mac.

Good points but I think Hackentosh's exist simply because someone likes OSx, or wants all their machines to have the continuity of OSx, and wants it on a machine not available through Apple. 

I don't have one, but I have thought about building one for professional reasons.  I never gave much thought to compatibility though, most everything I've read shows them to be as reliable as Mac hardware.

The strong "Dudley Do-Right" admonishments can be irksome, but it's both fun and educational to engage such individuals.  Perspective is key.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: kers on June 17, 2012, 05:09:26 pm
I can Imagine Apple would be in favour to a switch to Hackintosh compared to Windows...
It is also about software- If you decide to switch you don't go back or for very good reasons- like now...
( like the Nikon vs Canon problem having lenses that fit one or the other)
In the end the professional needs to stay competitive... needs a computer that is as fast as one can think...instead of drinking more coffee.

since 2009 pixels have increased by at least 50%
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: tived on June 17, 2012, 05:33:50 pm
You are certainly entitle to your opinion.

thanks for sharing

Henrik

It’s worth remembering that Apple is a hardware company which provides its own OS (Macintosh computers do permit Windows to be installed, and Apple supplies one means of facilitating that).

Given what Apple has charged for its OS in recent years, the hardware is definitely where any profit is made (I have heard that Microsoft will be charging around $85US for each bundled copy of Windows RT). And as has been pointed out, installing and using MacOSX on any hardware not made or authorised by Apple is illegal. As a professional, I make sure there is no illegal software on my computers (all Macintoshes BTW).

So I find the touting of “Hackintoshes” both immoral and rather unprofessional.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: tived on June 17, 2012, 06:01:27 pm
Wow,
talking about tunnel vision. You must have suffered much, if and when you ever used a windows computer. I am truly sorry for you.

However I see it slightly differently, in that I think that both Microsoft and Apple provides some good and useful products, In some inviroments one has to use one or the other, and occationally both. However, currently the Mac user is disatvantaged by not having hardware that is current and up to date, with what the Microsoft user is able to use.

About Hackingtos, they are not done to take something away from Apple, they done as an improvement to the excisting available products offering. Ilegal yes!
And if and when we do it, its in the name of science :-) there everything is allowed!

"If you want something that works out of the box and has no compatibility issues, buy a Mac"
to a degree it does work but if and when you do go to a Mac-forum, then you will notice that being a Mac-User is not all plain sailing, despite how you like to depict that Mac is computing Niravana.

As a PC/Windows user, I like to see Apple do well, its good for competition and innovation - and each and every time I have to do a major workstation upgrade, I look at Apple to see if they are offering something better then I can build for Windows.

All the best
Henrik

Legality of a hackintosh doesn't concern me much, as it is a very minor breach of EULA, at best. However, the very point of a Mac is that the OS is designed for a very small number of well tested components, and because of that it works better than other stuff, Windows included. The fundamental weakness of Windows is not being able to optimize software and hardware the way Apple can, making both.

Since Lion and Windows 7 seem to be very similar in most respects, and Windows is better suited to working with a wide pool of components from various vendors, this makes a hackintosh an inferior solution, by virtue of the fact that it's not doing what it's designed for. So basically I don't see why one would go that way - of you want to assemble your own machine, put Windows or Linux on it and problem solved. If you want something that works out of the box and has no compatibility issues, buy a Mac.

Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on June 17, 2012, 06:04:47 pm
1.  You were doing okay up to this point.  Can someone please point out under which penal code such a criminal charge would be made?  Or even what law of your locality/country would be broken?  Hint:  "illegal" does not enjoy the same breadth of application "legal" enjoys.  It's more specific.  

You are confusing criminal and civil law. I didn't suggest any criminal offence was in issue. Who did?

2.  Oh Jeremy.. how do you respond to someone incapable of seeing only black and white?  Certainly you can't suggest to such a person a concept such as color.  BTW - Your analogy needs a bit of work.  I do appreciate the attempt though, it shows a certain amount of conviction however misguided.

Oh, I do colour work as well; and what we photographers describe as black and white usually has shades of grey.

Describing something as misguided doesn't make it so. Do you have reasoning to disclose?

3.  My local speed limit on the highway is 65mph.  Our states drivers handbook also states it's more safe to speed up when changing lanes than to slow down (something I wish drivers over the age of retirement would figure out).  You can see the problem?  Laws aren't perfect.  They often need refinement through application and review.   OR..  If we consider the fact that we all drift up/down over our speed limits putting us in violation of an actual real law at least several times in the course of any trip on the highway.. would we be "unprofessional" to suggest an employee/client/self use the highway when driving to work?  And since it's so easy to momentarily exceed posted speed limits on the city streets, there as well?  There are endless comparisons.. we all break laws to different degrees every time we draw a breath.

Again, you confuse criminal and civil concepts and hence introduce irrelevance.

4.  I recommend the use of smaller words lest we create unintentional smiles..

I apologise if my sesquipedalian terminology induced confusion. Which words did you have to look up?

(For generations there existed a segment of society (often associated with those who wear tinfoil hats) who believed there were actual "mattress police" and lived in fear of falling asleep thereby making them complicit in the crime of mattress tag removal.  Hence, insomnia was born.)  Sherlock Holmes.. (not really, I made that up myself)

I could tell. I've read Conan Doyle, so it wasn't difficult.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Farmer on June 17, 2012, 07:31:44 pm
Is it just a "little bit" wrong to steal just one image from a photographer?  Or to just reproduce it for your own personal use if you're not selling it on?

Yes, it's wrong.

As photogs, we don't like the idea of someone else taking out IP and doing things with it that we have not authorised.  Similarly, Apple is entitled to place whatever restrictions it likes on its software and if we violate those restrictions we are break the law and we are hypocrits if we then complain about things like infringement of copyright.

Steve - I normally agree with you on pretty much any topic, but on this I can't.  Jeremy is right - a professional should not promoting their violation of laws.  There's not grey here, it's illegal (it could even be criminal, if someone sold a hackintosh with the OS pre-installed, but that's another story).  And, there are a number of hackintosh users out there quite proudly telling people that they didn't pay for the OS (i.e. didn't buy a Mac) with all sorts of reasons ranging from "Apple shouldn't be allowed to do this" to "I'm just using it for home testing" (sure you are..).

The concept of a hackintosh is great - it's a technical challenge that was long ago solved.  But to base your business on a model that explicitly requires a breach of contract?  Not a good idea and if anyone takes offence at that idea then too bad - they're the ones breaching or supporting breaching, not me.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 17, 2012, 10:30:34 pm
You are confusing criminal and civil law. I didn't suggest any criminal offence was in issue. Who did?

Oh, I do colour work as well; and what we photographers describe as black and white usually has shades of grey.

Describing something as misguided doesn't make it so. Do you have reasoning to disclose?

Again, you confuse criminal and civil concepts and hence introduce irrelevance.

I apologise if my sesquipedalian terminology induced confusion. Which words did you have to look up?

I could tell. I've read Conan Doyle, so it wasn't difficult.

Jeremy

1.  When you call something "illegal" and insist someone is breaking the law.. you must be talking about criminal law.  Civil law is different, the verdict always comes in "we find in favor of.."  not  "you have been found guilty of.."  The first shows there to be a disagreement, the second shows there to be a broken law.  Blanket statements are fraught with such misunderstandings as yours.

2.  I never would have guessed.  :)

3.  Describing something as "illegal" doesn't make it so, but you were okay with that so..

4.  Oh stop it, stop it, my sides are splitting already..  ;D  If you feel the need to attempt an advantage in this discussion by the improper use of big words then I should never have mentioned it.  My apologies sir.

5.  I am pleased.   I was worried you were losing sleep.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 17, 2012, 11:18:56 pm
Is it just a "little bit" wrong to steal just one image from a photographer?  Or to just reproduce it for your own personal use if you're not selling it on?

Yes, it's wrong.

As photogs, we don't like the idea of someone else taking out IP and doing things with it that we have not authorised.  Similarly, Apple is entitled to place whatever restrictions it likes on its software and if we violate those restrictions we are break the law and we are hypocrits if we then complain about things like infringement of copyright.

Steve - I normally agree with you on pretty much any topic, but on this I can't.  Jeremy is right - a professional should not promoting their violation of laws.  There's not grey here, it's illegal (it could even be criminal, if someone sold a hackintosh with the OS pre-installed, but that's another story).  And, there are a number of hackintosh users out there quite proudly telling people that they didn't pay for the OS (i.e. didn't buy a Mac) with all sorts of reasons ranging from "Apple shouldn't be allowed to do this" to "I'm just using it for home testing" (sure you are..).

The concept of a hackintosh is great - it's a technical challenge that was long ago solved.  But to base your business on a model that explicitly requires a breach of contract?  Not a good idea and if anyone takes offence at that idea then too bad - they're the ones breaching or supporting breaching, not me.

I respect your opinion but I don't agree.  And even if it is "illegal" then fine, we all break laws every day we live, it's part of the society we choose to live in.  Some laws are very serious and treated as such, and some are in the mattress tag category. I just don't feel this reaches the threshold where I care.  Why?  Because there is no damage.  No one is getting hurt, no one is losing a dime.

Here's the thing.. just because someone puts something in an EULA doesn't make it the law, nor does it make it illegal to do differently.  Sometimes manufacturers put EULA's, or EULA type entries in/on their products merely to avoid being sued.  For instance, we've all turned on our GPS and found the "you agree to not operate this GPS while driving, press here to continue.."   How about a hotplate or coffee pot that says "don't let small children operate?"  They really don't care if we do, as long as we can't sue them if we hurt ourselves or others when we do it.    Sometimes they put EULA's to avoid providing support or warranty.  EULA's are one of the most misused documents around.

Let's go further.  A manufacturer writes an EULA.  For this EULA to be enforceable, or rather for it to prevail in court, it must fall within the regulatory laws of our current locality.  So far not one person claiming an EULA is black and white has been able to show me where this is so.  Copyright which were your analogy, are easy to show where it's illegal in almost any locality in the western world. 

For fun, an EULA is included on a product purchased to use on your very own private island which is sovereign.  It might be illegal in Iowa, or might be illegal in Japan, but it can't be illegal when there is no locality with a law that allows/enforces whatever is in that EULA.   I'm asking anyone here to show me where their local laws support the EULA being discussed.

Or.. show me where it's prevailed in court.  They say a law really isn't a law until it's been challenged in court and prevailed.  We might have regulatory laws which appear to one person to support an EULA, but not to another.  No law has been broken so it's not illegal.. but a contract might have been broken so off to court we go.  A judge rules on it, and it's appealed or not.  When this happens enough we end up with settled law.  Or maybe not.  Maybe the court doesn't rule in favor of the manufacturer consistently and this creates issues.. then our lawmakers are lobbied by the industry to change or amend our current regulatory laws which would strengthen the EULA and it's success in court.  If it's a serious enough problem then it becomes state law and then maybe national law.. and if really serious like copyright infringement, then our State Department attempts to get other countries to go along with our views.

I'm asking anyone here who claims the EULA to be illegal.. to show me the law you'd be breaking if in violation for their locality.  Or show me where it's been challenged in court and upheld.  Anyone can write anything they want in an EULA, but without regulatory laws which support the EULA it can't be illegal.   And even if you think you've found a regulatory law which appears to fit.. it might not.  Not unless it's been challenged and upheld.

About the closest thing I can think of along these lines.. is the software which allows someone to copy a DVD movie.  Anyone follow that?  It's been going on for years and AFAIK you can currently legally buy and use the software.  What it did, was remove the DRM of a movie allowing the user to create a backup copy of a movie they legally own.  This was challenged under EULA's and copyright laws.  It prevailed, then it didn't.  Prevailed again, then it didn't.  They had a very hard time showing where the movie companies were being damaged, or if they were that the damage was caused by a legal user of the software using it as intended.  They even argued the software was illegal just by the very nature of what it did.  That prevailed too.. and then it didn't.  A couple good American companies were put out of business along with a substantial number of jobs.. and of course all the taxes and revenue it generated.   The last I heard the software was being sold from overseas, which in the on-line world makes not a wit of difference to someone who wants to buy it.. but it made a difference in the law.  They became the private island.  We can now buy this software legally.. on-line.  From China.  Now they have the jobs and the tax revenue.  I'm sure this will be used in similar cases when challenged in court.

Now you guys can see where I'm coming from.  I really don't think it's illegal to use OSx on a Hackentosh just because Apple said don't do it.  Apple doesn't make or enforce laws, but many manufacturers take liberties with EULA's by including content they know isn't enforceable.   It takes a lot more than that and not one person has even mentioned this or shown what laws it's breaking.  We're just so used to drinking the Kool-aid where such matters are concerned that we believe without cause.  We shouldn't.

Thanks for the great discussion.  We've done it without calling anyone crooks, or immoral, or unprofessional. 
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 17, 2012, 11:40:50 pm

Steve - I normally agree with you on pretty much any topic, but on this I can't.  Jeremy is right - a professional should not promoting their violation of laws.  There's not grey here, it's illegal (it could even be criminal, if someone sold a hackintosh with the OS pre-installed, but that's another story).  And, there are a number of hackintosh users out there quite proudly telling people that they didn't pay for the OS (i.e. didn't buy a Mac) with all sorts of reasons ranging from "Apple shouldn't be allowed to do this" to "I'm just using it for home testing" (sure you are..).

The concept of a hackintosh is great - it's a technical challenge that was long ago solved.  But to base your business on a model that explicitly requires a breach of contract?  Not a good idea and if anyone takes offence at that idea then too bad - they're the ones breaching or supporting breaching, not me.

Some good points in your post, I want to make sure to cover them all.. :)

1.  No one has yet shown there is indeed a violation.  Thinking there is one, or agreeing there should be one.. doesn't one make.  We can plainly get our point across without insulting fellow forum members and we should do so.  How would you feel if you received a summons alledging professional slander based on such a comment?  It's been done, such statements are unnecessary and frankly not what I would expect from anyone here.  I think at least the regular members here have earned the benefit of professional doubt where we can discuss a topic without such unnecessary inflammatory statements.  Such statements serve no purpose other than to make someone feel superior to someone else.

2.  If it's illegal, grey, criminal, etc:  I think I've articulated a strong case for doubt.  Especially when not one law, statute, or evidence showing otherwise has been presented.

3.  To be fair I've taken care to limit this discussion to those who have paid for their copy of OSx.  If you want to include pirated software and copyright infringement then I go on record that our current copyright laws are indeed laws, but I'll stop short of saying I fully support them.  There are areas of current copyright law I feel very strongly against, and since copyright law is an evolving rather than a settled law I think this distinction important.

4.  I'm sorry, but I just don't agree it's "too bad" to imply fellow forum members are criminals, unprofessional, or immoral based on what I've seen.  They're not child molesters or murderers for heavens sake.. they're expressing an opinion on what many agree is an extremely grey area.  Even if you feel strongly you're right.. is it really good for this forum and what we have here to start the accusations and name calling?  I don't think it is.

Sorry for double banging your post.. but it was full of good stuff.. you have a knack for saying a lot with fewer words.  I should be so lucky..  ;)
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Farmer on June 18, 2012, 12:25:29 am
It's difficult to discuss the issue without discussing what is and what isn't professional or illegal behaviour.  I don't think we've really delved into the morality of it, beyond the usual link between law and morality.

The EULA clearly states it is only to be installed on Apple hardware.  It hasn't been tested in court that anyone knows, so to that extent it's fair to say that it's not proven, but I don't think anyone doubts the intent of the wording at this point.

I don't think it's insulting to others to say that breaking the EULA is a bad business idea.  We discuss business matters often enough.  In particularly it would be perceived as very hypocritical for a photographer to insist on protection of their own IP whilst ignoring the rights of another IP owner.  When someone makes a recommendation to try a hackintosh (as was done) I think it's entirely relevant to express concerns that may be had with regard to that path, in order to make any readers fully informed.

It's clearly not slanderous with regard to the discussion here.  No one has been identified, no one has been accussed specifically.  It's a discussion about what if and so on.  If someone chooses to identify themselves subsequently as falling into that category, that does not make previous (or even subsequent) statements slanderous - particularly not in the US!  Indeed, the more "robust" the discussion the less likely it is to be taken as actionable and the more likely it is to fall under protected speech.  But that's another story, again :-)

I don't think anyone's name calling here, Steve.  We (or at least I am) saying that on the evidence available it's illegal and an IP related breach which I would consider particularly hypocritical for a photographer to engage in given the reliance on IP for that profession.

Finally, I don't think you can take in isolation only users who have other Mac hardware (and you have to at least consider whether they are using that hardware at the same time as the hackinstosh).  There are people here looking for alternatives to Macs so they are unlikely to wnat to buy a Mac in order to get the software, so they would be using it without following the terms of the EULA.

I have a meeting to go to - but it's a worthwhile discussion and up to and including now I ahven't seen anyone be abusive or name calling, really.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 18, 2012, 03:19:04 am
Wow,
talking about tunnel vision. You must have suffered much, if and when you ever used a windows computer. I am truly sorry for you.

It has been such a long time ago I don't really remember if I really disliked something on Windows. I disliked Vista and just migrated on Ubuntu Hardy from XP. I had very little real trouble with Windows, probably because I know my way around computers (I actually wrote win16 code back in windows 3.11 days). I had debian on my web server and disliked not having it on my desktop, linux ran faster on the same hardware and Vista was bug-infested so I just installed Linux on my box, that was it. You are so far off the mark with your assessment it's not even funny.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 18, 2012, 03:34:48 am
Good points but I think Hackentosh's exist simply because someone likes OSx, or wants all their machines to have the continuity of OSx, and wants it on a machine not available through Apple.  

I don't have one, but I have thought about building one for professional reasons.  I never gave much thought to compatibility though, most everything I've read shows them to be as reliable as Mac hardware.

The strong "Dudley Do-Right" admonishments can be irksome, but it's both fun and educational to engage such individuals.  Perspective is key.

One good reason for building a hackintosh has always been, well, Apple, really. They have very significant holes in their product line and some people need products that they don't seem to be making. For instance, they don't seem to be making a mid-range upgradable desktop machine. You have mac mini, which is sometimes underpowered and you can't easily replace a hard drive, and you have an iMac, which is great if you don't already own a great monitor, but less so if you do. Also, if you want to upgrade to a stronger machine, you need to replace the monitor as well, which can be either annoying or painful, depending on your budget. And then there's the mac pro, which doesn't even have thunderbolt and is painfully outdated for something that costs as much.

So basically hackintosh is almost universally Apple's fault, because people want to buy a computer they aren't making.

Laptops are a different matter. Apple's laptop lineup is excellent, I love it. But desktop workstations... I don't know, they seem to be making up their minds about that, post-pc era and similar bullcrap. OK, I understand that some people use computers solely as access points to the internet, but some of us use them for content creation, and no, iPad is not a content creation device, thank you very much. :) I have many gadgets but I also have a need for a strong desktop machine with a big, high quality, anti-glare screen, and that need isn't going away just because they made an iPad.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 18, 2012, 03:48:33 am
Is it just a "little bit" wrong to steal just one image from a photographer?  Or to just reproduce it for your own personal use if you're not selling it on?

Yes, it's wrong.

You will excuse my lack of compassion for your point of view, but I had a recent experience with a person on dpreview who attempted to persuade me that I needed permission to post *a link to an image* I found on the net. When I see such idiocy, I lose all patience for intellectual property advocates and actually wish everybody would start violating all intellectual property everywhere, just to spite them.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Farmer on June 18, 2012, 03:49:36 am
It might be Apple's "fault" that people are finding a lack of a product that they want, but that doesn't give anyone permission to violate the EULA.

I'll go back to the photog analogy - if someone has an image and I want it on 30"x40" canvass but they only print on RC papers, do I have a right to just take the image and print it myself?
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Farmer on June 18, 2012, 03:55:18 am
You will excuse my lack of compassion for your point of view, but I had a recent experience with a person on dpreview who attempted to persuade me that I needed permission to post *a link to an image* I found on the net. When I see such idiocy, I lose all patience for intellectual property advocates and actually wish everybody would start violating all intellectual property everywhere, just to spite them.

The two are not the same.  Anyone complaining about linking to a site is a fool, not an IP advocate.

However, since you're inviting us to violate IP, I think I'll download all of your images and start selling them to mico-stock sites.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 18, 2012, 04:26:16 am
The two are not the same.  Anyone complaining about linking to a site is a fool, not an IP advocate.

For most part, "IP advocate" is a thieving company that is used to charging people extreme amounts for the decaying carrier media in order to force them to buy the same record again and again, who grew so fat from the profits they made that way, they started blackmailing the authors, who are forced to work for them for pittance. And of course, when their income source became jeopardized by separation of data and carrier, the hypocrites use sympathy for the authors to justify the fascist laws they are lobbying to pass.

Americans have already allowed themselves to be treated like potential terrorists in airports, because their fascist government introduced fascist laws under some vague justification. Now, also under some vague and false justification, the media companies are trying to pass laws that would allow the entire population to be treated like criminals everywhere. I think the concepts such as intellectual property or safety need to be seriously revised.

Quote
However, since you're inviting us to violate IP, I think I'll download all of your images and start selling them to mico-stock sites.  Cheers!

Go ahead, as far as I'm concerned. They'll ask for more megapixels and reject the submission.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 18, 2012, 04:50:15 am
It might be Apple's "fault" that people are finding a lack of a product that they want, but that doesn't give anyone permission to violate the EULA.

I've been thinking about that now.
A company doesn't make the product you want, but tries to prevent you from creating what you want by mixing something they make with something someone else makes. Something like Ford not making strong enough brakes for their sporty model, but suing you if you install stronger aftermarket brakes.

If a car company tried to sue someone for violating their IP on those grounds, they would be laughed at, but for some reason when computers are concerned, we seem to be well trained and allow software companies to treat the things we bought from them as *their* property.

If I buy a hammer in a store, I will use it for either banging nails into walls or breaking tiles or throwing it into a lake for the fun of it. They can't limit the way I use it, because I bought it. They have a right to object if I copy it and sell copies under their brand, but they can't tell me not to hammer walnuts with their nail-banging hammer and justify it with the EU-F-LA.

I hope you understand the reason for my concern. Software companies have managed to bring us to a position of being grateful for the privilege of using their product, instead of it being the other way around, as is common elsewhere. Their legal "rights" should be limited, or soon they'll attempt to sell us license to live in the world where someone uses their product, or demand royalty payment for music because you were in earshot of the music being played. It's just a logical extension of the uncurbed concept of IP.

Someone will say that IP is the basis of big industry and that limitations on it would prevent lots of money from being made. I agree it's a big business, but so is drug dealing, which is prohibited because it is harmful to the society in general. IP has come to the point where it is harmful to the society in general but useful to the organizations that profit from it, which makes it very similar to drug dealing, at least from where I stand.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: kencameron on June 18, 2012, 05:51:39 am
I'll go back to the photog analogy...

It is an interesting analogy but, like most analogies, perhaps doesn't stand up all that well to close consideration. The photographer would be willingly selling a photograph while purporting to restrict the private use the purchaser could make of it. "You can only hang it on your living room wall but absolutely mustn't laminate it and use it as a tablecloth". I don't think that photographers who object to the unauthorised duplication and resale of their images are necessarily being hypocritical or even inconsistent if they don't accept Apple's understanding of its right to restrict the private use of a single item of software that has been paid for. There is certainly an issue that bears thinking about there, but throwing around terms like "illegal", "unprofessional" and "hypocritical" makes it harder to see the issue clearly.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Farmer on June 18, 2012, 06:17:03 am
Well, let's vary the analogy to fit your point.

A photographer grants a museum the right to hang their photo, but insists it can only be done under certain lighting and at a certain location.  The museum decides to hang it in another building under different lighting.  Does the photographer have that right?  Of course.  They own the photo and if the agreement says "XYZ" then "XYZ" are the terms of the agreement, not "ABC".

If you don't like Apple's terms and conditions, don't buy their products.  Your lack of liking their terms and conditions does not give you the right to ignore them and do as you please.

It's very simple.  It really is.  If you believe that as a photographer you own your work, then you MUST respect other people's IP and the conditions under which they allow you to use it.  If you don't agree, don't buy it or use it.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 18, 2012, 06:55:26 am
Well, let's vary the analogy to fit your point.

A photographer grants a museum the right to hang their photo, but insists it can only be done under certain lighting and at a certain location.  The museum decides to hang it in another building under different lighting.  Does the photographer have that right?  Of course.  They own the photo and if the agreement says "XYZ" then "XYZ" are the terms of the agreement, not "ABC".

If you don't like Apple's terms and conditions, don't buy their products.  Your lack of liking their terms and conditions does not give you the right to ignore them and do as you please.

It's very simple.  It really is.  If you believe that as a photographer you own your work, then you MUST respect other people's IP and the conditions under which they allow you to use it.  If you don't agree, don't buy it or use it.

No, it is not very simple. In fact, I think the entire issue is very complex, meaning there are several issues involved. I actually think Apple itself could be very seriously penalized for such, de facto monopolistic move. Microsoft lost billions of dollars for less. They were actually punished for giving a free web browser to go with their OS. So it's very far from "their way or the highway" situation you seem to be portraying.

Not wanting others to copy and use your software without permission, that's understandable. Not wanting others to reverse engineer your software, that's understandable too. Not wanting others to use your software to produce nuclear weapons is also ok. Voiding warranty and not providing support for using your products in uncommon and unsupported ways is also ok.

But threatening lawsuit because you want to block hardware competition, that is called monopoly and can get you in trouble. So it's not really a matter of a hackintosh being a breach of Apple's IP, it's a matter of Apple EULA being a breach of anti-monopoly laws.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: kencameron on June 18, 2012, 07:10:42 am
Well, let's vary the analogy to fit your point.

If you don't like Apple's terms and conditions, don't buy their products.  Your lack of liking their terms and conditions does not give you the right to ignore them and do as you please.

It's very simple.  It really is

The problem is, varying the analogy in that way makes it less relevant to the point you are trying to prove. Apple isn't conducting an individual negotiation of specific terms with each buyer, it is putting out some identical small print with each of a million copies of software in a situation where its legal right to assert some of its claims is open to dispute.

I don't buy Apple's products, for other reasons, although I wish the business all success, and I certainly have no plans to build a Hackintosh. Believe it or not, I am interested in the ideas in play here and have no personal agenda. Intelligent debate gets very difficult when things are instantly personalised.

It's not so simple. It really isn't. In my experience it rarely if ever is, in a discussion where someone feels the need to assert that it is, and really is.  I think that building a Hackintosh would be problematic, given Apple's views on the matter, but I wouldn't want to call it illegal, immoral, hypocritical or unprofessional and I think a reasonable and thoughtful person could decide to do it without having their character called in question.

I guess some people are into nuances while others are more comfortable with black and white.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: John.Murray on June 18, 2012, 12:44:25 pm
I think the confusion arises from people misunderstanding what a license conveys, it's *not* ownership.  If you choose to install OS X on non Apple hardware you are violating the license agreement that you accept when installing - there is simply no way around it.

Danijel's point about monopoly's is simply wrong; case in point - Apple shutting down Psystar.  Speculating what Apple will or will not do is equally pointless.

Bernard brings up a very cogent point; what happens when an update disable's current functionality?  If you are relying on such a machine to do business, what then?
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 18, 2012, 01:51:54 pm
I think the confusion arises from people misunderstanding what a license conveys, it's *not* ownership. 

Oh yes, it is, in the same way in which, by buying a print of someone's photo, you are buying ownership of that print, as well as a license to use that photo in form of that print.

By paying for a software license you in fact get certain rights, and weighing one right against the others, or against certain restrictions thereof, is a very gray area that is determined by the courts. My opinion is that Apple has no right to forbid installing its software on non-Apple computers, in the same way in which Microsoft would have no right to forbid installation of their software on a virtual machine, or, for that matter, a Chinese computer.

Apple has a right to void warranty and support in case of installation that is not supported by Apple, and that is common practice everywhere. That's where Apple's rights end. They are allowed and expected to say they do not support it and if something goes wrong it's not their fault. But to sue someone for installing OS X on a non-Mac amounts to Microsoft suing someone for installing Windows on a non-Intel.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Chris Kern on June 18, 2012, 02:20:55 pm
I've been following the direction this thread has taken with some interest, but previously had no intention of jumping in.  However, even though I'll probably regret doing so now, I think I might have the appropriate background to offer a few useful technical points.

First, my credentials, which I think are germane to this post:


Now, first of all, I think it would be best to avoid the terms legal or illegal with respect to the adherence to or violation of a software end-user license agreement.  I think in English (at least as spoken in the United States), there is an imputation that “illegal” refers to a violation of criminal law.

Second, it really doesn't make sense to me to refer to the validity of end-user license agreements except in the context of a particular jurisdiction.  In federated governmental systems, such as the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Germany, India, China, etc., you may need to consult the law of more than one jurisdictional level to determine an outcome.  In multinational federations such as the European Union, there may be an additional adjudicative layer.  And international treaties also come into play in some areas (e.g., copyright) because many national systems give international treaties the force of domestic law.

Third, in the United States, at least, the enforceability of end-user license agreements is not generally settled.  Depending on the way the agreement came into force, it may be considered an “adhesion” contract (no real meeting of the minds) or a binding bilateral agreement that the courts will enforce.  The amount of “consideration” (the fee paid by the licensee) may be an issue, as well as the expectations of the parties about how the license would be used.  The specific terms of the license may be a factor in whether a court in a particular jurisdiction will enforce it, as well as their clarity and the court's notion of their reasonableness.  The statutory law to be applied, the particular court that hears a dispute (state or federal), and whether there is (in the judge's opinion) relevant controlling authority from a higher court will all make a difference.  In general—again, at least in the United States—any blanket statement about the validity or invalidity of these agreements is incorrect.*

Fourth, if Apple wanted to enforce its end-user license agreement for OS X, its remedy in the United States would probably be limited to its actual monetized damages.  In other words, Apple probably couldn't recover more in damages that the revenue it had actually lost.  Of course, the cost to the licensee of defending a lawsuit brought by Apple might be considerable.

Fifth, if Apple wanted to stop people from installing OS X on non-Apple hardware, the company clearly has the engineering talent to develop an effective technical impediment to doing so.  This would be relatively easy to do prospectively, beginning with new hardware releases, but probably very feasible to retrofit to legacy hardware via new OS X releases or patches to existing ones.  (Yes, maybe certain agencies of a few governments could defeat such a scheme, and probably 11 of the most talented teenaged hackers in China, but the government agencies wouldn't be interested and the hackers are too busy selling pirated credit card information to the Russian mob to be bothered with such a niche undertaking.)

Finally, I spend most of my time in an OS X environment because the commercial application software I use the most is available for OS X and I find anything UNIX more congenial than anything Windows.  I have no intention of building a “hackintosh” nor any particular beef with anyone who does.  However, it seems obvious to me that most people who aren't happy with or interested in Apple's hardware products will simply run Windows.  A few computer aficionados may go to the effort to run OS X on generic Intel hardware—probably many of them would assemble their own desktop machines for running Windows—but most end-users want something that runs out-of-the-box.  Apple knows that, which is probably why they haven't taken effective action to stop people from running OS X on third-party hardware.  (That's not to say the won't in the future, of course.)

Chris

_____
* Having said that, I've decided to go out of my way not to refer to them as EULAs, just in case Michael Reichmann should decide that sounds too much like Lu-La and decide to sue me for trademark infringement.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: John.Murray on June 18, 2012, 02:23:21 pm
The license itself describe your "rights" and terms of use - as long as they are not at odds with local jurisdiction - they remain in effect.

Your "opinion" is in direct contradiction of apple's license:

Quote
I. Other Use Restrictions. The grants set forth in this License do not permit you to, and you agree not
to, install, use or run the Apple Software on any non-Apple-branded computer, or to enable others to
do so. Unless otherwise permitted by the terms of this License: (i) only one user may use the Apple
Software at a time, and (ii) you may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it
could be run or used by multiple computers at the same time. You may not rent, lease, lend, sell,
redistribute or sublicense the Apple Software.

A legal decision by anyone rescinding this would be pretty big news - i'm not aware of any.....
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 18, 2012, 02:55:35 pm
The license itself describe your "rights" and terms of use - as long as they are not at odds with local jurisdiction - they remain in effect.

Your "opinion" is in direct contradiction of apple's license:

A legal decision by anyone rescinding this would be pretty big news - i'm not aware of any.....

I heard that someone put a phrase to the effect of "you hereby sell your soul to us" in the EULA, as a joke.

Meaning, the fact that something is in the EULA doesn't mean it is either binding or enforceable. It can actually be damaging to the company who put it there.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 18, 2012, 03:05:20 pm
I've been following the direction this thread has taken with some interest, but previously had no intention of jumping in.  However, even though I'll probably regret doing so now, I think I might have the appropriate background to offer a few useful technical points.

First, my credentials, which I think are germane to this post:

  • I'm agnostic about operating systems.  I run OS X (and iOS), Windows, mainstream UNIX and Linux.  I've managed an IT organization for a U.S. federal agency that supported a multiplatform environment that included all of these, and others.
  • I'm purely an amateur photographer, and don't have any opinion about what might be considered “professional” or “unprofessional” behavior for those of you who make a living at photography.
  • I'm a lawyer—not currently in practice, but with a degree and a license in the United States (District of Columbia).
  • I've been programming computers for more than 45 years.
:snip:

I think your analysis is probably the closest match to how the courts might view this in some real life situation. So basically, the greatest possible harm consists of being sued by Apple and spending a considerable amount of time and money on legal representation.

Quote
However, it seems obvious to me that most people who aren't happy with or interested in Apple's hardware products will simply run Windows.

Yes, my thoughts exactly. Any legal consideration that I might have re: hackintosh pales in comparison with sheer impracticality of actually installing an OS on hardware on which it isn't made to run. Free BSD sounds user friendly in comparison.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 18, 2012, 04:12:18 pm
I think the confusion arises from people misunderstanding what a license conveys, it's *not* ownership.  If you choose to install OS X on non Apple hardware you are violating the license agreement that you accept when installing - there is simply no way around it.

Danijel's point about monopoly's is simply wrong; case in point - Apple shutting down Psystar.  Speculating what Apple will or will not do is equally pointless.

Bernard brings up a very cogent point; what happens when an update disable's current functionality?  If you are relying on such a machine to do business, what then?

Boot from a Windows 7 boot disk instead of the OSX boot disk....or boot up another Mac or Windows machine.  Backups...just like camera equipment.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Farmer on June 18, 2012, 06:33:21 pm
Interestingly, some people are claiming this shouldn't be made personal but they're doing pretty well at that :-)

You can make this as complex as you like in trying to justify breaking an agreement you make with Apple when you purchase a licence to use their software, but you're still just trying to justify breaking an agreement.

I believe it is bad advice to suggest to a professional running a business that they should consider breaking an agreement and go about publicising that fact, particularly when such an agreement reflects the basis of their own business in so much as both revolve around IP and rights to use.

I thin John's point is very important - the misunderstand regarding licensing and ownership (and even after he clarified this, some people still refuse to see).
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 18, 2012, 06:51:52 pm
Interestingly, some people are claiming this shouldn't be made personal but they're doing pretty well at that :-)


I believe it is bad advice to suggest to a professional running a business that they should consider breaking an agreement and go about publicising that fact, particularly when such an agreement reflects the basis of their own business in so much as both revolve around IP and rights to use.




I guess that really depends on how one "licenses" their products...
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 18, 2012, 07:12:15 pm


I thin John's point is very important - the misunderstand regarding licensing and ownership (and even after he clarified this, some people still refuse to see).


Let be very clear here.

In the last two years or so I have purchased for my use, 2-15" 2011 MBP's, 1-Ipad1, 2-Ipad3, two Ipod nanos.  I addition I have purchased for family gifts, 1-Ipad1, 1-Ipad3 and a mac mini. And if the Iphone 5 has a larger screen I'll be replacing my androids.

I also have three w7 laptops and two home built w7 workstation boxes.

My MBP shares my NEC with my W7 workstation and is my daily general business computer.  The workstation is only for photo processing.  

I will however NOT own a Mac Pro or IMac.  Neither suits me.  I'll work in W7 instead.  I installed OXS on my workstation just for fun, from a legally purchased disk, to see if it could really work.  And yes it does. Do I need to run it?  Nope. Is this a crime?  



Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Farmer on June 18, 2012, 07:24:05 pm

I guess that really depends on how one "licenses" their products...

I think this is absolutely correct.  The T&Cs of the licence are very important.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Farmer on June 18, 2012, 07:31:30 pm
Is it a crime?  No, I think we're all agreed this is not a criminal matter (unless you start to resell it or something), but that doesn't mean that it's not against the law.  Breach of contract is still illegal (regardless of what some people might assert with regard to "common usage" of the term).

I think I also mentioned that I understand the desire of people from a technical point of view to attempt this to see how it goes.  That's still a breach, but in so much as it's not your professional basis of operating (i.e. you're not producing work from it) it would seem to be of less significance and really isn't the complaint I have (which is breaching the contract and making that the basis of your professional business process and then further publicising that fact - all of which I think is poor business practice).  You're not doing that.

Do I think that Apple is going to pursue a hackintosher?  No (it's not even unlikely, I just can't see it happening at all).  But that's not the point and never has been.  Would I knowingly deal with a business that was deliberately breaching someone's contract?  No.  I wouldn't and I wouldn't recommend them to anyone, either.  Others are free to make their own decisions, of course.  This is just a discussion.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: John.Murray on June 18, 2012, 09:43:09 pm
Agreed!  A discussion - but Craig, lets explore this a bit:

You produce, from what I have seen, excellent product shots of various yacht's, power boats etc.  Presumably you have made arrangements with some party in regards to reproduction, possibly even giving full ownership rights....  In any case the decision you make regarding the distribution of your efforts is entirely up to you.

Software licensing works the same way.....
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 19, 2012, 02:02:44 am
It's difficult to discuss the issue without discussing what is and what isn't professional or illegal behaviour.  I don't think we've really delved into the morality of it, beyond the usual link between law and morality.

The EULA clearly states it is only to be installed on Apple hardware.  It hasn't been tested in court that anyone knows, so to that extent it's fair to say that it's not proven, but I don't think anyone doubts the intent of the wording at this point.

I don't think it's insulting to others to say that breaking the EULA is a bad business idea.  We discuss business matters often enough.  In particularly it would be perceived as very hypocritical for a photographer to insist on protection of their own IP whilst ignoring the rights of another IP owner.  When someone makes a recommendation to try a hackintosh (as was done) I think it's entirely relevant to express concerns that may be had with regard to that path, in order to make any readers fully informed.

It's clearly not slanderous with regard to the discussion here.  No one has been identified, no one has been accussed specifically.  It's a discussion about what if and so on.  If someone chooses to identify themselves subsequently as falling into that category, that does not make previous (or even subsequent) statements slanderous - particularly not in the US!  Indeed, the more "robust" the discussion the less likely it is to be taken as actionable and the more likely it is to fall under protected speech.  But that's another story, again :-)

I don't think anyone's name calling here, Steve.  We (or at least I am) saying that on the evidence available it's illegal and an IP related breach which I would consider particularly hypocritical for a photographer to engage in given the reliance on IP for that profession.

Finally, I don't think you can take in isolation only users who have other Mac hardware (and you have to at least consider whether they are using that hardware at the same time as the hackinstosh).  There are people here looking for alternatives to Macs so they are unlikely to wnat to buy a Mac in order to get the software, so they would be using it without following the terms of the EULA.

I have a meeting to go to - but it's a worthwhile discussion and up to and including now I ahven't seen anyone be abusive or name calling, really.

Hi -  I wanted to respond and not leave you hanging before I leave for Thailand tomorrow for 30 days of workshops, wedding, and what not.. I won't have time to pursue this so I'll make a few final comments.

1.  I don't think it's difficult at all to discuss this topic without calling others unprofessional or immoral.. In fact, I would challenge anyone here to tell me how judging others to be immoral or unprofessional is helpful to the discussion at all.  It's all in the tone and how you direct the words.  I have no issues with the way you used them, though I don't see how it was helpful to the discussion.  But in the original post I responded to I feel this person directly targeted specific individuals in a (I don't want to say unprofessional though it did come to mind first) hostile and almost combative manner.  Go back and read it again and I'm sure we can agree to disagree if that's where we end up.

2.   It's not about intent.  It's about if Apple has a right to control a product others pay money for to such an extent.  Microsoft has recently paid out billions globally in judgements to anti-trust suits for far less.  And without consumers challenging Microsoft they would have got away with their antics.  And without the right it can be neither illegal or unprofessional, though I could see the ethics being argued from the moralists.  I would agree it is black and white as to Apple's intent.  I simply don't think they have a legal leg to stand on nor one iota of motivation to find out through pursing those who make hackentosh's for personal use. 

But what is very clear, just because you write your wishes on a piece of paper and put it in the box with a product.. does not make it a law or "illegal" to not follow those wishes.  There must be regulatory laws those wishes are in line with, and even then they can be challenged by someone who doesn't think they have the right.

3.  I'd agree, I think it's actually helpful to politely remind someone they might be able to improve their business practices.  But this is far different from publicly judging someone as a law breaker and immoral to boot.

4.  I'd agree that expressing concerns is appropriate and helpful as well.  Others did this previously in the thread and no one took offence.  Yet, a heavy handed judgement decrying illegal and immoral behavior directly targeted.. well..

5.  It doesn't take much of a twist to reach the slander threshold and such a statement as contained in that post could certainly do it.  All it would take is for one client to google one of the professional photographers targeted by that post and cancel a job out of concern for "illegal and immortal" behavior while referencing that thread and there you are.  We should support the professional lives of other forum members, not take unnecessary risks that might have a negative impact on them just because we feel strongly about something.  We need to exercise more restraint and common sense than that.  Words mean things and they often have consequences.

6.  It's not name calling per se, it's judging.  Fellow professionals were judged harshly and unfairly based on one man's opinions.  You obviously feel a certain way about breaking an EULA in this manner and I feel another.  I'm not going to judge you moronic or uneducated or unprofessional or anything negative at all because we don't agree.  I appreciate we can have an open discussion and present our thoughts and take on the matter at hand without being negative.  I want you to know why I think the way I do, and I want to know why you think the way you do.. especially when it's so different from myself.  These are what's been coined "a teachable moment."  Perhaps this way we'll both learn something, even if it's only the way a fellow professional feels about EULA's. 

I want you to know something.  My response to the post in question was done tongue in cheek.  I delivered a strong judgemental response to a strong judgemental post.  Somehow I thought the person making the post would see/feel the humor, do a mea culpa, and we'd have been back on track.  Clearly I misjudged.  The responses that followed were understandable considering the lack of a response when needed, but the thread took a sharp turn downwards.. and certain individuals are going to look at other individuals differently, and not in a good way, than they did before.  It just wasn't necessary.

7.  Isolation no.. but very near.  I really don't know anyone who isn't an Apple user/supporter who has created an hackentosh or who even thinks OSx is worth building a machine for.  I don't think we're going to find someone, or many of them, out there with a hackentosh who decided he/she wanted to use OSx based on other than experience with Apple products and at the same time had such rigid hardware requirements that they needed to build their own.  I could be wrong on this one, but so far I haven't ran across such a person.  These days it's hard to find anyone at all who doesn't own an Apple product..

I hope you enjoyed your meeting.  I spent the last 24 hours packing and repacking and testing gear.. I'll have to hit the ground running in Bangkok in a couple days and I'm so heavily booked I'll won't have much time to enjoy my favorite forums. 
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 19, 2012, 02:04:30 am

So basically hackintosh is almost universally Apple's fault, because people want to buy a computer they aren't making.


I wouldn't argue this at all.  I feel Apple really let their customers down and I've had a fair number of my own workstation clients coming from Mac's because of this.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 19, 2012, 02:08:26 am
It might be Apple's "fault" that people are finding a lack of a product that they want, but that doesn't give anyone permission to violate the EULA.

I'll go back to the photog analogy
- if someone has an image and I want it on 30"x40" canvass but they only print on RC papers, do I have a right to just take the image and print it myself?

I don't feel this is a strong analogy.  First, copyright violations are well represented in regulatory law.  Second, you would be losing money if not given the opportunity to provide this print yourself and so far no one has shown me how Apple is losing anything through individual hackentosh builds.. in fact I demonstrated how they profited heavily from it. 

Though.. be careful.  If the marketplace is clamouring for 30x40" canvas prints and all you're offering is 8x10 glossies.. well.. ya know..  ::)
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 19, 2012, 02:09:50 am
For most part, "IP advocate" is a thieving company that is used to charging people extreme amounts for the decaying carrier media in order to force them to buy the same record again and again, who grew so fat from the profits they made that way, they started blackmailing the authors, who are forced to work for them for pittance. And of course, when their income source became jeopardized by separation of data and carrier, the hypocrites use sympathy for the authors to justify the fascist laws they are lobbying to pass.

Americans have already allowed themselves to be treated like potential terrorists in airports, because their fascist government introduced fascist laws under some vague justification. Now, also under some vague and false justification, the media companies are trying to pass laws that would allow the entire population to be treated like criminals everywhere. I think the concepts such as intellectual property or safety need to be seriously revised.

Go ahead, as far as I'm concerned. They'll ask for more megapixels and reject the submission.


I think I'm going to like you.. :)
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 19, 2012, 02:17:17 am
Well, let's vary the analogy to fit your point.

A photographer grants a museum the right to hang their photo, but insists it can only be done under certain lighting and at a certain location.  The museum decides to hang it in another building under different lighting.  Does the photographer have that right?  Of course.  They own the photo and if the agreement says "XYZ" then "XYZ" are the terms of the agreement, not "ABC".

If you don't like Apple's terms and conditions, don't buy their products.  Your lack of liking their terms and conditions does not give you the right to ignore them and do as you please.

It's very simple.  It really is.  If you believe that as a photographer you own your work, then you MUST respect other people's IP and the conditions under which they allow you to use it.  If you don't agree, don't buy it or use it.

1.  Still doesn't float.  Clearly in your analogy a contract (agreement) between two parties exists.  This is a specific product, single user, two way agreement (contract).  Much different.   I've tried to find a suitable analogy and I can't come up with one without over simplifying the issue.

2.  This is where anti-trust comes in.  It's why Microsoft paid billions in fines.  When your product is basically corning the market you have responsibilities to your customer base that extend further than what you want or feel like doing.

3.  It's not simple unless you're intentionally trying to make it simple for the sake of forcing others to see it your way.  It's a very complex issue to be sure.  Read a bit about the Microsoft anti-trust case.. remarkable stuff..
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 19, 2012, 02:20:07 am
I've been following the direction this thread has taken with some interest, but previously had no intention of jumping in.  However, even though I'll probably regret doing so now, I think I might have the appropriate background to offer a few useful technical points.

First, my credentials, which I think are germane to this post:

  • I'm agnostic about operating systems.  I run OS X (and iOS), Windows, mainstream UNIX and Linux.  I've managed an IT organization for a U.S. federal agency that supported a multiplatform environment that included all of these, and others.
  • I'm purely an amateur photographer, and don't have any opinion about what might be considered “professional” or “unprofessional” behavior for those of you who make a living at photography.
  • I'm a lawyer—not currently in practice, but with a degree and a license in the United States (District of Columbia).
  • I've been programming computers for more than 45 years.

Now, first of all, I think it would be best to avoid the terms legal or illegal with respect to the adherence to or violation of a software end-user license agreement.  I think in English (at least as spoken in the United States), there is an imputation that “illegal” refers to a violation of criminal law.

Second, it really doesn't make sense to me to refer to the validity of end-user license agreements except in the context of a particular jurisdiction.  In federated governmental systems, such as the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Germany, India, China, etc., you may need to consult the law of more than one jurisdictional level to determine an outcome.  In multinational federations such as the European Union, there may be an additional adjudicative layer.  And international treaties also come into play in some areas (e.g., copyright) because many national systems give international treaties the force of domestic law.

Third, in the United States, at least, the enforceability of end-user license agreements is not generally settled.  Depending on the way the agreement came into force, it may be considered an “adhesion” contract (no real meeting of the minds) or a binding bilateral agreement that the courts will enforce.  The amount of “consideration” (the fee paid by the licensee) may be an issue, as well as the expectations of the parties about how the license would be used.  The specific terms of the license may be a factor in whether a court in a particular jurisdiction will enforce it, as well as their clarity and the court's notion of their reasonableness.  The statutory law to be applied, the particular court that hears a dispute (state or federal), and whether there is (in the judge's opinion) relevant controlling authority from a higher court will all make a difference.  In general—again, at least in the United States—any blanket statement about the validity or invalidity of these agreements is incorrect.*

Fourth, if Apple wanted to enforce its end-user license agreement for OS X, its remedy in the United States would probably be limited to its actual monetized damages.  In other words, Apple probably couldn't recover more in damages that the revenue it had actually lost.  Of course, the cost to the licensee of defending a lawsuit brought by Apple might be considerable.

Fifth, if Apple wanted to stop people from installing OS X on non-Apple hardware, the company clearly has the engineering talent to develop an effective technical impediment to doing so.  This would be relatively easy to do prospectively, beginning with new hardware releases, but probably very feasible to retrofit to legacy hardware via new OS X releases or patches to existing ones.  (Yes, maybe certain agencies of a few governments could defeat such a scheme, and probably 11 of the most talented teenaged hackers in China, but the government agencies wouldn't be interested and the hackers are too busy selling pirated credit card information to the Russian mob to be bothered with such a niche undertaking.)

Finally, I spend most of my time in an OS X environment because the commercial application software I use the most is available for OS X and I find anything UNIX more congenial than anything Windows.  I have no intention of building a “hackintosh” nor any particular beef with anyone who does.  However, it seems obvious to me that most people who aren't happy with or interested in Apple's hardware products will simply run Windows.  A few computer aficionados may go to the effort to run OS X on generic Intel hardware—probably many of them would assemble their own desktop machines for running Windows—but most end-users want something that runs out-of-the-box.  Apple knows that, which is probably why they haven't taken effective action to stop people from running OS X on third-party hardware.  (That's not to say the won't in the future, of course.)

Chris

_____
* Having said that, I've decided to go out of my way not to refer to them as EULAs, just in case Michael Reichmann should decide that sounds too much like Lu-La and decide to sue me for trademark infringement.

Great post. 
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 19, 2012, 02:26:42 am
Interestingly, some people are claiming this shouldn't be made personal but they're doing pretty well at that :-)

You can make this as complex as you like in trying to justify breaking an agreement you make with Apple when you purchase a licence to use their software, but you're still just trying to justify breaking an agreement.

I believe it is bad advice to suggest to a professional running a business that they should consider breaking an agreement and go about publicising that fact, particularly when such an agreement reflects the basis of their own business in so much as both revolve around IP and rights to use.

I thin John's point is very important - the misunderstand regarding licensing and ownership (and even after he clarified this, some people still refuse to see).


I've been thinking about this..  At first I felt strongly your way about this concept in general if not in this instance.  But the more I think about it, what's "professional" is to discuss all relevant choices AND the pros/cons of each.    I have no issue with one professional telling another "there is an EULA with this product stating it should be used this way, but it does work really well this other way and if you chose to use it that way these would be your challenges... "  Totally 100% professional and exactly what was being done up to the point of an over the top judgemental post.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 19, 2012, 02:32:17 am
Agreed!  A discussion - but Craig, lets explore this a bit:

You produce, from what I have seen, excellent product shots of various yacht's, power boats etc.  Presumably you have made arrangements with some party in regards to reproduction, possibly even giving full ownership rights....  In any case the decision you make regarding the distribution of your efforts is entirely up to you.

Software licensing works the same way.....

To a degree it is very similar.  But the devil is in the details and this isn't a solid analogy.

I'm heartened we've been able to overcome a rather nasty rock in our pathway and continue a great discussion. 

Sorry for all the posts.. but I wanted to relax and enjoy the discussion a bit before beginning what promises to be a very busy next 30 days. 
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 19, 2012, 03:22:19 am
I think I'm going to like you.. :)

LOL :)
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Farmer on June 19, 2012, 03:57:37 am
I hardly think Apple can be considered to have cornered the PC market, Steve :-)

That said, to me, it is simple.  If someone makes a product I believe they have a right to sell it on their terms.  If the terms suck, the market won't buy it (really, there's NO way you can contend that Apple has a monopoly on the PC side of things, so that doesn't come into it).

Leaving aside my opinion, the matter of whether a EULA can be enforced or not is not 100% clear in general terms (each needs to be reviewed and even then it's not going to be 100% clear).  On that basis, if you consider business management as an exercise in risk management (and you should) then risking the potential impact on your reputation, (because let's be honest, Apple isn't going to sue you), due to someone pointing out that you're happy to breach an agreement, isn't worth it.  There's nothing OS X can do on a hackintosh compared to Windows or OS X on a Mac that brings that risk weighting to an acceptable level.  It's just bad for merchants of IP to disrespect the wishes of other merchants of IP with regard to how you handle their IP.

Don't like it?  Don't buy it.  Want something more?  Tell them.  They won't produce it?  Get something else or make do.

Enjoy Thailand - my meeting was pretty mundane - hate it when work interferes :-)
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 19, 2012, 04:53:16 am
I hardly think Apple can be considered to have cornered the PC market, Steve :-)

They have a specific product that creates a local monopoly within its ecosystem, which means that if you have applications that work for OS X, you can be blackmailed by Apple and you really have no options other than to migrate everything to another platform.

The actual market share doesn't matter much; people always had the option to use a Mac, Linux, BSD, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX or whatever instead of Windows, if they didn't like it, but still Microsoft could be penalized under anti-monopoly laws, for blackmailing the users within its ecosystem.

So it's really a slippery slope for Apple, and if I were them, I would clarify the statement in their EULA, to the extent that it doesn't mean that Apple will prosecute people who make a hackintosh, but that they accept no responsibility for improper operation of such unsupported combinations of hardware and software.

This would have a positive side-effect of not insulting people who actually did think different. :)
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Farmer on June 19, 2012, 06:24:28 am
you really have no options other than to migrate everything to another platform.

That's not a monopoly.  That's like saying if you want a Ford with features X but Ford doesn't make a model with feature X so you have to move to a Toyota which does have feature X and calling that a monopoly by Ford.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: kencameron on June 19, 2012, 07:25:31 am
On that basis, if you consider business management as an exercise in risk management (and you should) then risking the potential impact on your reputation, (because let's be honest, Apple isn't going to sue you), due to someone pointing out that you're happy to breach an agreement, isn't worth it.  
Well - you might not think so, but that is based on assumptions about the impact on someone's reputation of it being public knowledge that they use a Hackintosh. In the risk management context to express the issue as  "... happy to breach an agreement" assumes that your particular take on the issues involved is universal, which it clearly isn't. My own assumption is that a minority of people, who share your views of the ethical and legal issues, would reach adverse conclusions, that another minority would consider anyone using a Hackintosh to be a technological wizard and/or a rebel against the machine and actively choose to use their services for those reasons, and that most clients wouldn't care one way or the other. Risk management surely depends on individual values and circumstances, and I suspect what you are doing is reformulating an ethical judgement (which you have strongly defended on its own terms) in "risk management" language to make it seem like good business, and therefore a good thing.

(On reconsideration, I would say "some people" rather than "a minority of people". I really have no idea about the numbers)
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 19, 2012, 07:41:19 am
That's not a monopoly. 

Yes it is, and your car analogy is wrong, because migrating a business from one OS to another is not like migrating from Ford to Toyota, it's like migrating from air transportation to railroad or road transportation. The systems basically do the same thing but in a different way, and are really not interchangable. If you have dozens of unix shell scripts you cannot really migrate to Windows easily, you need to have another unix, and if you want to run Adobe software on a unix desktop you have only OS X. The fact that people choose to make a hackintosh speaks volumes - they *need* OS X, and Apple is blackmailing them into a very narrow set of hardware options that allow them to run it. Honestly, if there's someone who would be in legal trouble over Apple's EULA, it's Apple, and my recommendation to them would be to change the wording.

Of course, long term solution would be a distribution of Linux that is made properly and that runs Adobe. That could be made to run on both Apple and non-Apple hardware and would make the OS X problem irrelevant.

Unfortunately, that could be expected to happen only if Google decides to rework linux desktop from scratch, and that's speaking from five years of experience continously using Ubuntu on my primary desktop machine. The problem of Linux is that development is motivated by ego and not money, and the last 5% of development provides the smallest amount of ego stimulation and greatest amount of tedious, hard work, and never seems to get done if you don't actually pay someone to iron out the wrinkles.

So the biggest problems with linux are 1) that it doesn't run Adobe software and 2) that it is not designed from bottom up by someone with a strong financial incentive to do it properly. But honestly, if it ran Adobe now, as it is, I could probably live with its warts just fine.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 19, 2012, 08:31:13 am


Leaving aside my opinion, the matter of whether a EULA can be enforced or not is not 100% clear in general terms (each needs to be reviewed and even then it's not going to be 100% clear).  On that basis, if you consider business management as an exercise in risk management (and you should) then risking the potential impact on your reputation, (because let's be honest, Apple isn't going to sue you), due to someone pointing out that you're happy to breach an agreement, isn't worth it.  There's nothing OS X can do on a hackintosh compared to Windows or OS X on a Mac that brings that risk weighting to an acceptable level.  It's just bad for merchants of IP to disrespect the wishes of other merchants of IP with regard to how you handle their IP.



I would be shocked if every business in the world has not breached some clause or another in some contract somewhere.  That is a fact of business life. If you have never, ever done so in your life, well , welcome to sainthood.

I've been a photographer for over 30 years.  A fact of life for commercial photographers is making things work. As such we tweek, modify, hack, adjust and generally  McGyver our way along.  Its how business gets done.  Heck on this forum alone there lengthy threads about 'hacking' GH2's for better video performance. 

Have I damaged Apple?  I paid retail for the software.  I did not deny them an equipment sale ( I could have easily installed the software on a Mac from the secondary market), I did not give the software to others or install it on multiple machines(even though Apple allows it) nor have i asked nor will I ask for technical support. 

Do I support Apple by actually purchasing their computers and other products?  Yes.  In fact I owned two Macs prior to seeing if it would run on a generic windows box.

When I license my products to my customers it is a true 'meeting of the minds'.  Each side gets to voice an opinion about the terms.  That does not happen with a shrink wrap EULA, and that's where any analogy with photo licensing falls apart.

Will people break my licensing terms for my images?  Of course, that's nature.  Its what you decide to do about it that matters.  I learned an importantly business lesson many years ago when a client gave one of my images to a supplier to use in a trade show booth.  Now I grant unlimited first party use for my images because that is what the market demands and the images have a very limited lifespan.  I'm quite agreeable.  But when I made a stink over a few hundred dollars I ended up losing the client and many many thousands in repeat business.

Would I be upset and take a different tack if someone were selling one of my images on the open market without my permission?  That's a different story.

Its all about degrees.  Clearly your standards are different than mine.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: mac_paolo on June 19, 2012, 09:30:40 am
(Please forgive my english)

I read a lot of amusing posts here.
People trying to discuss over the meaning of words such as "illegal" or "ethic" to justify the break of an agreement. EULA for the friends.
People arguing that Apple deserves to be cheated as it's not supporting me anymore. What are we talking about?

We know what we are buying now, and we chose what to pay for. End of the story.
I am relying on a macbook pro without knowing for how many years will spare parts be kept for assistance.
I am relying on Apple phone, tablet and OS without knowing anything about their future.
I am relying on an Adobe software to manage my whole photo catalog without knowing absolutely nothing about future releases.

Fast forward to year 2020. Adobe will cease to support Lightroom. Will I sue them? Not at all! I bet on their platform. I won for ten years and lost the war, so what? I'll try to switch over a competitor while keeping the expense as low as possible.
Why should someone claim anything from Apple if they would decide to drop the Mac Pro line? I mean... we decided to get a Mac, we decided to buy softwares which run on a Mac, we even built Applescript or coded objective-c apps that run on Macs.
Nobody ever forced us to do that. The same is for Microsoft counterpart.

Choosing the right party is a mix of luck and knowledge. No manufacturer / software house is fireproof, nor their products. We pay for what we buy today, unless the contracts explicitly give us assurance for the future.

OS X is part of the Mac ecosystem. We may agree or not, but it's part of the EULA. It's cheap because it's meant to run of Apple computers only. Microsoft decided for a different path. Why would ever someone try to mix and match the two? Apple is telling us: my OS is cheap and so will be the upgrades if you stick with my machines (which are the ones and only to be certified).
Microsoft is telling us: we sell our OS for a higher price but you'll be free to remove from one machine and install on another. We don't build, nor care on, the machine you're going to use.

The Hackintosh philosophy is to want to have one's cake and eat it. I'm really sad for any Mac Pro user and I'd be mad as well with Apple, but it's not a valid reason to break the EULA, nor it will ever be. Owning an "original copy" of OS X won't ever allow you to do that.

A smart Pro is the one who plan the switch in advance and make any choice to reduce the impact, just in case the bad lack happens.
Anything else is not Apple's/Adobe's/Microsoft's fault, IMHO.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: deejjjaaaa on June 19, 2012, 07:23:07 pm
People trying to discuss over the meaning of words such as "illegal" or "ethic" to justify the break of an agreement.

well... consider the issue of illegal aliens (USA)... they are illegal but for various political, etc reasons the law(s) is(are) not enforced and that comes from the very top also...
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Farmer on June 19, 2012, 10:51:43 pm
It boils down to this.  Some of us believe you shouldn't violate that agreement and others feel it's OK.  Clearly, the two are not going to meet or move and further input from me isn't going to add anything, so I'll bow out and just agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: dturina on June 20, 2012, 03:44:52 am
It boils down to this.  Some of us believe you shouldn't violate that agreement and others feel it's OK.  Clearly, the two are not going to meet or move and further input from me isn't going to add anything, so I'll bow out and just agree to disagree.

History of mankind consists of re-evaluations of agreements of all kinds. Manufacturers can put many things in their EULA, but they have been known to rescind once the customers made enough noise about it. So, arguing about it is very useful.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: jonathan.lipkin on June 21, 2012, 10:20:50 pm
Violating an EULA isn't illegal, as far as I know. It violates no laws, only a contract (License Agreement). To that end, the state won't come after you in criminal court but presumably Apple could bring a suit in civil court. I'm not a lawyer, just my guess.
Title: Re: Mac "Big Iron" rumors
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 24, 2012, 07:37:37 am
I hardly think Apple can be considered to have cornered the PC market, Steve :-)

That said, to me, it is simple.  If someone makes a product I believe they have a right to sell it on their terms.  If the terms suck, the market won't buy it (really, there's NO way you can contend that Apple has a monopoly on the PC side of things, so that doesn't come into it).

Leaving aside my opinion, the matter of whether a EULA can be enforced or not is not 100% clear in general terms (each needs to be reviewed and even then it's not going to be 100% clear).  On that basis, if you consider business management as an exercise in risk management (and you should) then risking the potential impact on your reputation, (because let's be honest, Apple isn't going to sue you), due to someone pointing out that you're happy to breach an agreement, isn't worth it.  There's nothing OS X can do on a hackintosh compared to Windows or OS X on a Mac that brings that risk weighting to an acceptable level.  It's just bad for merchants of IP to disrespect the wishes of other merchants of IP with regard to how you handle their IP.

Don't like it?  Don't buy it.
  Want something more?  Tell them.  They won't produce it?  Get something else or make do.

Enjoy Thailand - my meeting was pretty mundane - hate it when work interferes :-)

1.  Either was Microsoft corning a PC market, they were restricting the growth of private vendors on their specific platform.  The anti-trust rulings are standard case law exercises in MBA courses and are interesting enough even for private individuals to read.

2.  Well.. if you simplify something too much you risk creating an environment where discussion of any type is discouraged.  Discourage discussion and you discourage growth and innovation.  For all we know Apple is about to do something smart and bring "OSx For PC's Version 1" to market.. that would never happen without these types of discussions.

3.  I'm don't think most people really understand risk management as it relates to actually running a business and the growth of that business.   With that considered, most would be shocked to learn that Apple (and Microsoft) have broken more EULA's, copyrights, patents, and contracts than we could hope to break in 100 lifetimes as small business owners.  They don't choose to do or not do something based on ethics or right/wrong.. they do it based on their chances of getting away with it for an anticipated period of time during which they hope to achieve benefits such as actual profit, market share, name recognition, and more.   

Okay, I'll be honest.. seems no one else is going to say it.  Apple and Microsoft are the financial pirates of modern times who spend more time in courtrooms than the boardrooms.  They've perfected the fine art of 'skinning' the last layer of profit.  They're also perfected brand loyalty (brainwashing) to the point where the customers they rip off, actually defend their own antics as a side benefit.

Ethics are pie in the sky nice.. but most have an ideal notion of what ethics are really about gleaned from Sesame Street and/or Mr. Rogers neighborhood.  I suspect most business professors keep a defib hidden out of sight during their ethics lectures lest someone goes into cardiac arrest after learning the nice guy driving the ice cream truck was actually harvesting body parts from living recipients..   Maybe I'm over doing it a bit.. but probably not.  Ask anyone who's taken an actual ethics class.

4.  I think we all try to do that at a base level, but as consumers we have a responsibility to ourselves and our chosen brands to provide more feedback.

5.  Thanks.  Surprisingly it's much the same as when I left it last year.. :)   As soon as my internal clock catches up with my stomach I'll get to work..