Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: neways on May 08, 2012, 11:16:25 am
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Help please! I currently shoot with Hasselblad H2 with Leaf Aptus 22 back. I am quite happy with the result but the the back is getting old and the ISO above 100 is not usable. So I either sell all the Hassy equipment (I have most of the H lenses) and the back to switch to Nikon D800E (I only have the 14-24 zoom lens shooting with Canon 5D Mark II) or keep the Hassy and upgrade to Leaf Credo 60 MP back. Any suggestions? The Live View feature on the Credo back sounds very promising. Thanks in advance.
John
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Do some real life testing and do not believe the measurebeaters :-)
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The forum is a great place to get some good opinions. Real world testing is the only definitive answer.
But to get good opinions from the forum we would need more information about you and what you do. What sort of photography do you do? Why do you do it (commercial, personal, commissioned art)? Where do you do it (what sort of environments)? What are some of your favorite cameras and why (that tells us a bit about your aesthetics and preferences for workflow)? What speed do you normally work at (e.g. 10 minutes to compose and capture one image, or 3 frames per second)? Have you tried Capture One (which is the best place to develop Credo files)? Where are you located (speaks to where/how you'd get support/service when you need it)? What's your budget and in what way is it limited (i.e. do you have a hard budget provided by a boss or do you have all the money in the world and simply want to buy what works best for you regardless of price)? Have you ever used a tech camera like a Cambo Wide RS or Arca Swiss RM3Di? What are your priorities? When and why do you need higher ISO and how much higher do you need or want?
Asking the question as you have is similar to asking "which should I buy, a pickup truck or a four-door sedan"? - without some more context the answers you'll get are nearly meaningless.
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Everything Doug is saying is true.
I would like to add that a change of equipment may be a time to re-evaluate how you do things, and even what you sell your clients.
Eg. Many people are now offering some video, and also the high ISO offered by the 35mm solutions allow the use of continuous light rather than flash.
So maybe you should ask yourself what you do, and also what you would like to do, and then I am sure that Doug will be able to assist you. If he doesn't already offer Nikon gear, I think Nikon should offer him this possibility, because it is very clear that a pro needs a dealer like Doug more than a box-shifter like B&H. The D4 and D800 have some features (full HDMI out, wireless and ethernet tethering) which are clearly provided for the benefit of studio users.
Edmund
The forum is a great place to get some good opinions. Real world testing is the only definitive answer.
But to get good opinions from the forum we would need more information about you and what you do. What sort of photography do you do? Why do you do it (commercial, personal, commissioned art)? Where do you do it (what sort of environments)? What are some of your favorite cameras and why (that tells us a bit about your aesthetics and preferences for workflow)? What speed do you normally work at (e.g. 10 minutes to compose and capture one image, or 3 frames per second)? Have you tried Capture One (which is the best place to develop Credo files)? Where are you located (speaks to where/how you'd get support/service when you need it)? What's your budget and in what way is it limited (i.e. do you have a hard budget provided by a boss or do you have all the money in the world and simply want to buy what works best for you regardless of price)? Have you ever used a tech camera like a Cambo Wide RS or Arca Swiss RM3Di? What are your priorities? When and why do you need higher ISO and how much higher do you need or want?
Asking the question as you have is similar to asking "which should I buy, a pickup truck or a four-door sedan"? - without some more context the answers you'll get are nearly meaningless.
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Fair enough. I will try to answer all these questions. Mainly I sell my landscape and travel images to a stock agency, like the GettyImages. And occasionally I sell big prints to clients. The main subject of my photography is landscape and travel so for landscape images I usually work slowly but for travel images I may need a bit fast pace. That is why i also use Canon 5d Mark II currently for travel shooting. The main reason I want to upgrade is the Live View touch screen of the Credo back, higher MP, and higher ISO performance ( I mean 200 and 400 the most). I never used Capture One and I use Leaf software and CS to process my Aptus 22 images. I love the Hassy equipment I have, especially the lens quality which I don't think Nikon lens can compete. I like to know the upgrade cost from Aptus 22 to Credo 60 and of course a real shooting test will let me to make the final decision. I locate in Utah US and I tried to get an Aptus 12 with Hassy H2 platform to try and the rep. can't find me one for months so I hope the new Credo back with H2 mount will be available for me to test soon. Otherwise I may go to the Nikon D800E choice even though the Live View function on that camera really sucks! (I rent D800 to try it out for a few days) The Live View on Canon 5d MarkII is miles better than Nikon so I hope the Live View touch screen on the Credo back is at least equal or better than the Canon. Looking forward to hearing from you and thanks.
John
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I'm looking for a Leaf back if you decide to sell.
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John,
Respective merits of both cameras setups you are considering aside, I think if, you are deriving the majority of your income from stock then both
are far more than the industry requires and neither would offer you a competitive advantage.
The entire selection process is based on small thumbnails and only slight enlargements and delivery is jpeg
Having licensed thousands of images over 3 decades never has one been rejected for technical shortcomings and that includes quite a few pretty weak
scans from 35mm film delivered in the early days of my migration to digital.
The vast majority of your competition in the industry comes from photographers working with 35mm slr or dslr based systems with a rapidly growing number of them
being talented amateurs with good images but not,necessarily, a need to sustain a viable photographic business.
Considering an 5-10 fold increase in your equipment acquisition costs using a medium format back system vs. a 35mm based system the math suggests how many more
sales you have to close simply to break even.
If print sales are a major component, then the DB back choice becomes a more logical option especially if print sizes are regularly on the large side.
As a longtime Canon user, I'd say the D800 is about the best all-rounder available, now, when weighing cost to quality and features
Mark
www.marktomalty.com
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Good luck to you and your rep finding a D800E, I think it's harder to find than a Credo back. I've been waiting since Feb 7 to get mine, so have most other people here in the USA. But to me it sounds like you are a hassy guy and you should just stay with your lenses and camera and get the credo. Composing through the viewfinder of an H2 is so much better than a 35mm camera, not sure how important this is to you. Get to know C1 software, it is very powerful and also has live view, but not as great as canon's. Nikon software sucks. Period.
Nice problem to have.
-N
I locate in Utah US and I tried to get an Aptus 12 with Hassy H2 platform to try and the rep. can't find me one for months so I hope the new Credo back with H2 mount will be available for me to test soon. Otherwise I may go to the Nikon D800E choice even though the Live View function on that camera really sucks! (I rent D800 to try it out for a few days)
John
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Make sure you Demo the "live view" on the credo backs. If it's like live view in the IQ backs, you may find it bit hard to use in any outdoor situation. It's not like live view on your Canon.
Paul
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"5-10 times the cost" is one metric for the financial evaluation. But to some extent the absolute price and what you get from it matters a great deal more than the ratio of what the next option down is.
Say I'm choosing between two laptop bags to travel with for the next year of heavy business travel. This year one is $20 and the other is $100 (FIVE TIMES as much). Next year the options are $10 and $100. Is the $100 bag suddenly twice as hard to justify (it's now 20x the price rather than 10x the price)? To me, not much. I'd still be evaluating the bags for how well they fit my needs; if $100 was justified by how well that bag solved my problem when it was 5x the price of the next option down then it is still justified when it is 10x the price of the next option down.
Or put in Happy Hour terms If I go to a bar and I see $6 Brooklyn Lager I get it regardless of whether the Stone IPA is $12 or $1. Both are widely regarded as good quality beers but Brooklyn Lager is my preference and it's worth the $6 to me.
Of course there are MANY successful business models and philosophies of choosing between options so I claim no absolute correctness here - simply offering another perspective.
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The main reason I want to upgrade is the Live View touch screen of the Credo back, higher MP, and higher ISO performance ( I mean 200 and 400 the most). I never used Capture One and I use Leaf software and CS to process my Aptus 22 images. I love the Hassy equipment I have, especially the lens quality which I don't think Nikon lens can compete. I like to know the upgrade cost from Aptus 22 to Credo 60 and of course a real shooting test will let me to make the final decision.
The Live View of a Credo or IQ is not going to be in the same league as the Canon Live View or the Nikon Live View. The update speed is much slower, the color is only "ok" and the range of acceptable amount of light is fairly narrow (often requiring ND filters to be used in direct outdoor light).
Then again a ton a photographers shoot exceptional (and precisely focused/composed) landscape using a digital back on a tech camera where you don't even have a standard viewfinder. So it might be worth an extended conversation with a dealer that can help you zero in on what you do and don't need and where the tradeoffs of each option will be.
Generally an Aptus 22 should be worth a 22% discount from the price of the Credo 60. But it's best not to generalize and to speak with a dealer to get a specific quote. We (Digital Transitions) would be happy to help in that regard should you wish to contact us (contact info below).
Comparing the Credo to the Aptus 22 based on the criteria you specified:
ISO 200 would be much better, the touch screen (and overall speed and quality of the user interface) is much better, and the capture resolution is significantly higher. That leaves only the topic of focusing and live view. Live view is not in the same league as Canon/Nikon, so it's best you do a real world test to see if finding/checking focus is acceptably fast - preferably under the guidance of a dealer who can step you through the various tips and tricks to get the most out of the system.
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Comparing the Credo to the Aptus 22 based on the criteria you specified:
ISO 200 would be much better, the touch screen (and overall speed and quality of the user interface) is much better, and the capture resolution is significantly higher. That leaves only the topic of focusing and live view. Live view is not in the same league as Canon/Nikon, so it's best you do a real world test to see if finding/checking focus is acceptably fast - preferably under the guidance of a dealer who can step you through the various tips and tricks to get the most out of the system.
As regards the Nikon, if you are going to shoot landscape I think you would probably need to resort to Zeiss MF lenses which you would focus with liveview. I don't think any other lenses can really extract all the detail from that camera.
One thing you don't talk about is backup. If you go with a second back for H, you could keep the existing back. With Nikon you would need to get a second body.
Edmund
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"5-10 times the cost" is one metric for the financial evaluation. But to some extent the absolute price and what you get from it matters a great deal more than the ratio of what the next option down is.
You are absolutely right: what matters is the difference in cost not the ratio (consider "free because I already own it" as the alternative!) in relation to what one gets for the extra money or the "opportunity cost" of what you can then not afford.
That is why I much prefer comparisons in terms like "for the extra cost of system X over system Y, I could instead by a nice car, or take an extra three months of time off from other paid work to concentrate on improving my photography, or adding to my photographic portfolio."
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You are absolutely right: what matters is the difference in cost not the ratio (consider "free because I already own it" as the alternative!) in relation to what one gets for the extra money or the "opportunity cost" of what you can then not afford.
Fair enough but my point was more of an attempt to point out that investing $40 K in a camera system to support a business model that might only generate a fraction of that in returns, annually,
might not be prudent at this time in the stock photography's evolution given the cutthroat competition and declining return per image being generated for the massive majority working in the sector.
John doesn't link to any work so it's difficult to know how his photographic content is positioned in the industry so I have to assume,perhaps incorrectly, that he is,perhaps, a relative newcomer and his investment
might be better made is a different aspect of his business.
I suppose it's all a little moot to compare a D800 against a DB given that he already is invested in a medium format system and his actual cost might even be higher to go with a DSLR system as he would be
buying from the ground up where his DB might only involve an upgrade price for the back component alone
Mark
www.marktomalty.com
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Thanks for all the valuable comments. You can see my recent work from the following link: http://pix.kg/p/904703775215%3A741203896/sct
I just want to calculate how much I may get for selling the Hasselblad H2 today with all the H lenses ( 55-110 zoom, 35mm, 80mm, 150mm, 210mm, 300mm, 1.7 converter) plus the Aptus 22 back, and how much I have to spend to get the Nikon system with the similar lenses package, and how much I have to pay for trade in the Aptus 22 back for the new Credo 60 mp back.
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You are still comparing apples to oranges. The D800E is stunning. The images are like nothing 35mm DSLRs have produced before. They fairly easily match 40MP MF images, and I say that as someone who has shot the two side-by. At higher ISOs, there is no comparison.
That said, the Credo at 60MP if clearly in a different league. If your subjects are amenable to absolutely ideal shooting technique, then the Credo will produce the best possible results, if you need not merely huge files, but gi-normous ones.
If that's the case, and the flexibility of Nikon gear doesn't create a clear advantage for you, then the question is financial. You will have a huge capital investment in the Leaf and likely take a significant depreciation on the back, much more so than with the Nikons.
Good luck.
- N.
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Thanks for all the valuable comments. You can see my recent work from the following link: http://pix.kg/p/904703775215%3A741203896/sct
I just want to calculate how much I may get for selling the Hasselblad H2 today with all the H lenses ( 55-110 zoom, 35mm, 80mm, 150mm, 210mm, 300mm, 1.7 converter) plus the Aptus 22 back, and how much I have to spend to get the Nikon system with the similar lenses package, and how much I have to pay for trade in the Aptus 22 back for the new Credo 60 mp back.
You'd probably get the Nikon + lenses for what you can sell the MF kit. The only real difficulty is in choosing the lenses you need. I'm not recommending that course of action however; you really should do some real-world tests.
Edmund
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Good luck to you and your rep finding a D800E, I think it's harder to find than a Credo back.
Good news is they do seem to be gradually getting into the channel ... we've had a couple show up in the last week so our customers who got on the waiting list when announced are starting to get their cameras ...
Make sure you Demo the "live view" on the credo backs. If it's like live view in the IQ backs, you may find it bit hard to use in any outdoor situation. It's not like live view on your Canon.
Agreed - you better test it. Don't expect an experience similar to the 5DMark2 ... not even close. For some it works, for others completely unusable (i'm one of those. I love my IQ180 but the live view just isn't very useful. Easier for me to shoot, evaluate, and delete repeatedly to fine tune.)
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What will probably be the biggest benefit to you in terms of upgrading to a Credo, besides the obvious resolution increase...Is the screen on the back for outdoor use. The aptus screen was pretty much useless for me outdoors. The screens on the new backs are 100 times better. I checked out the link, beautiful work, btw. Couldn't you sell your Canon stuff (It sounds like you have some) and use that to fund a D800E AND keep the Hasselblad stuff and upgrade to the Credo 60 or even the Credo 40. I think you could get all the Nikon gear you need for the difference in price between the Credo 40 & 60. I mean if you have the Nikon 14-24 already, you may be able to get away with one of the new 50mm primes and a 70-200 (or two Primes in that range) and have it all. From seeing your work, my guess is that you're still going to prefer the Hasselblad with a Credo back if you were forced to choose only 1 option. At least all of your options are fun and exciting! The best thing to do is to demo them both in the environment you shoot in.
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I have rarely seen a body of work as obviously suited to stitching! ;)
In my view, a Nikon D7000/Pentax K5 and a stitching head would deliver results very clearly superior with a few minutes of work for most of these images.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I was recently offered $8.5K trade-in for my Aptus 22 on a Credo 80; unsure if the 60 would be the same dollar amount. This is in Australia.
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I was recently offered $8.5K trade-in for my Aptus 22 on a Credo 80; unsure if the 60 would be the same dollar amount. This is in Australia.
Did you really get that price? Is that US$?
I have been offered 15.000 US$ for an upgrade from Aptus 12 to Credo :( (same mp)
Henrik
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Did you really get that price? Is that US$?
I have been offered 15.000 US$ for an upgrade from Aptus 12 to Credo :( (same mp)
Henrik
We have our own currency, Henrik! ;D
If I had a spare $16K, I’d make you an offer …
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I know you have a different currency, but the value is very close to the US$.
I think I misunderstood you. I thought you have to pay 8.500 together with the Aptus 22
to get the Credo. But I guess you ment they offered you 8.500 off on the Credo?
Henrik
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I know you have a different currency, but the value is very close to the US$.
I think I misunderstood you. I thought you have to pay 8.500 together with the Aptus 22
to get the Credo. But I guess you ment they offered you 8.500 off on the Credo?
Henrik
Yup. The Au $ was worth a bit over the greenback until very recently, but that situation didn’t seem to moderate prices at all!
Quote *To upgrade from your existing Leaf Aptus 22 to the Credo 80, the cost including GST is $30,500.00 (outright purchase is $39,000.00)*
GST is a 10% sales tax.
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I have been offered 15.000 US$ for an upgrade from Aptus 12 to Credo :( (same mp)
Ouch...!!! I guess this is the reason why LL and GetDPI have Buy/Sell forums...
an upgrade from a P30+ to a P40+ is still $13+K...,
the prices of a new P30+ and P40+ are still $14K and $18K... with the P30+ being a 5-year old back, the P40+ a 3-year old one...
completely insane, the business model of Phase One and Hasselblad is not sustainable in the long run,
and cameras like the D800 are bound to accelerate that evolution
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Ouch...!!! I guess this is the reason why LL and GetDPI have Buy/Sell forums...
an upgrade from a P30+ to a P40+ is still $13+K...,
the prices of a new P30+ and P40+ are still $14K and $18K... with the P30+ being a 5-year old back, the P40+ a 3-year old one...
The upgrade paths have kept many ppl in the game, but not to the best of my knowledge allowing cross-grades from, say, PhaseOne to HB, or even from PhaseOne to Leaf, or in the other direction. I’d be happy to move from my Aptus 22 to a P45+, but I would have to sell to somebody wanting to upgrade to a Credo if I wished to maximise my savings; it’s worth no more than $5K as a back.
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The upgrade paths have kept many ppl in the game, but not to the best of my knowledge allowing cross-grades from, say, PhaseOne to HB, or even from PhaseOne to Leaf, or in the other direction. I’d be happy to move from my Aptus 22 to a P45+, but I would have to sell to somebody wanting to upgrade to a Credo if I wished to maximise my savings; it’s worth no more than $5K as a back.
it almost feels like a pyramid investment scheme...
you hold very little in your hands but as long as you keep investing we will make you believe that you hold a lot...
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it almost feels like a pyramid investment scheme...
you hold very little in your hands but as long as you keep investing we will make you believe that you hold a lot...
You could call it bribery … ;D
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What do you like working with? I prefer 4:3 cameras over 3:2 cameras. Big viewfinders are also preferable. Sure, the economics are important, but if you spend so much time with your equipment, how they handle is also a factor.
There is only a difference of 27% between the Nikon and Credo in (pixel/file) resolution--in a linear measurement, which is the right way to measure resolution. So if you are happy with the resolutions of your current system, both cameras are a step up. The sensor size difference will change that in different ways. Noise is very different, but if you always shoot at base ISO, then that is not a factor. Long exposures will go to the D800 as I believe the Credo has a limit to exposure time. Then there is file size--are you prepared in dealing with huge increase in file size, even for the D800. If you go with the D800, you could also dump the Canon and travel with one system rather than two.
I would get your hands on these cameras and shoot them for awhile. There is no right answer here.
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Hi,
If you are in London, UK on the 21st June 2012, then you pop in to Peartreephoto and get hands on with the new Leaf Credo. There's a free BBQ and drinks through-out the day and all attendees will be entered into a free prize draw to win an iPad 2 16gb.
Pop in anytime between 10am - 8pm - for more details see the news page www.peartreephoto.com/news.php
Hope to see you there.
Lawrie.
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Hi,
If you are in London, UK on the 21st June 2012, then you pop in to Peartreephoto and get hands on with the new Leaf Credo. There's a free BBQ and drinks through-out the day and all attendees will be entered into a free prize draw to win an iPad 2 16gb.
Pop in anytime between 10am - 8pm - for more details see the news page www.peartreephoto.com/news.php
Hope to see you there.
Just noticed that the link was incomplete, so have corrected it here, my apologies.
Lawrie.
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The upgrade paths have kept many ppl in the game, but not to the best of my knowledge allowing cross-grades from, say, PhaseOne to HB, or even from PhaseOne to Leaf, or in the other direction. I’d be happy to move from my Aptus 22 to a P45+, but I would have to sell to somebody wanting to upgrade to a Credo if I wished to maximise my savings; it’s worth no more than $5K as a back.
In the USA there are no practical restrictions for accepting a Leaf or Phase One or Hasselblad or even Sinar digital back towards a new Leaf product, nor are their any for Phase One. Not sure about the rest of the world.
Steve Hendrix
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In the USA there are no practical restrictions for accepting a Leaf or Phase One or Hasselblad or even Sinar digital back towards a new Leaf product, nor are their any for Phase One. Not sure about the rest of the world.
Steve Hendrix
Very insular here in the Land of Kangaroos, Steve, and a very small market. Phase products are handled by a company in Sydney called L & P (http://lapfoto.com.au/), and Leaf by consumer-oriented Ted’s Camera Store (http://www.teds.com.au/) in Melbourne. Both are uninspiring to deal with in my experience.
Just tried searching for credo on the Ted’s site (they do claim to sell them!):
(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/5577/credosearch.png)
???
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Just tried searching for credo on the Ted’s site (they do claim to sell them!):
(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/5577/credosearch.png)
Truly sad. I'd be spending some personal cash to fly to the US and get real service one-one.
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Truly sad. I'd be spending some personal cash to fly to the US and get real service one-one.
Australia has a 10% sales tax on any import valued over $1000: The Great Leveller.
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I'm sending a note to Ted's asking to add the Credo to their Pro page (http://www.teds.com.au/professional), thanks for raising this Ian!
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I'm sending a note to Ted's asking to add the Credo to their Pro page (http://www.teds.com.au/professional), thanks for raising this Ian!
Yair, there’s something odd/ambiguous about Ted’s separation between retail and pro. I have had trouble before trying to find pro stuff on their site; at one stage their secondhand pro gear was all handled from Brisbane (in Queensland, top right-hand side of the country!).
Background: I have dealt with Ted’s and their predecessor George’s for over thirty years, and tides and currents of professional service and support have shifted much over the years (always remembering that Australia is a small pond professionally).
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Truly sad. I'd be spending some personal cash to fly to the US and get real service one-one.
Another comment on your comment, Graham. Because of our isolation, large land area, and small population, Australia has always had difficulty matching or even getting near the cost efficiency taken for granted in the US and Europe. So our prices are higher, even when the AU is stronger than the greenback (The Tyranny of Distance (http://www.panmacmillan.com.au/display_title.asp?ISBN=9780732911171&Author=Blainey,%20Geoffrey)). :( Many folk in Oz buy stuff overseas, as I have from eBay and through fora like this one, and from B+H. But I don’t expect any service or support aside from the replacement of faulty goods.
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Here in Sweden the only Leaf importer/reseller actually recently stopped having Leaf products on their web. I asked them why and the response was that the new Credo backs are too similar to Phase One IQ backs so they only sell those now, but they could still sell a Leaf back if someone explicitly asked for it. A bit strange I think, but Hasselblad and Phase One are the MF brands in this country I guess.
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Here in Sweden the only Leaf importer/reseller actually recently stopped having Leaf products on their web. I asked them why and the response was that the new Credo backs are too similar to Phase One IQ backs so they only sell those now, but they could still sell a Leaf back if someone explicitly asked for it. A bit strange I think, but Hasselblad and Phase One are the MF brands in this country I guess.
I think Phase is doing a mistake with the Credo. We are forced to use Capture one and the Credo is realy just a
IQ180 light. It adds nothing to the game.
Henrik
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If you also want to try to shoot HD movie then the choice would be quite obvious. For stils, I would look for Credo 60MP in stead of D800E for absolute image quality, unless low light performance, superfast autofocus or fast frame rate is absolutely needed. In reality, all the high paid jobs does not require super high-tech cameras, super high ISO shooting, and superfast frame rate, quite interestingly, on the contrary, the lower pay job might require those, due to limited budget. This is not to say D800E is not a good camera, it is a great camera that I also own one. But Credo 60MP, like my P65+, still visbly above D800E on absolute image quality.
But of course, as most of the professional photographers I know who shoot medium format, all have their Canon or Nikon, and perhaps more SONY would appear.
Pingang