Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: yaya on April 23, 2012, 03:00:27 am
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Hi everyone, I’ve got some breaking news for you!
The below is extracted from the Press Release that has just gone out:
We are very excited to reveal the Leaf Credo, the latest and most advanced digital back on the market. Key platform features include:
• A large, high resolution (1.15 megapixel), touch screen with excellent rendition of 16 million colors for quick and easy verification of focus and tonal accuracy
• A new, intuitive graphical user interface (GUI) offers easy navigation and extends the touch screen beyond the LCD - letting you navigate and click outside the image area
• Fast, new multi-core microprocessor enables powerful performance for the fastest available image viewing, focusing and editing
• New FireWire 800 and USB3 implementation delivers the fastest image transfer speeds
Designed and developed for ultimate image quality and ease of use, Credo backs are offered with 80, 60 or 40 megapixel CCD sensors. They capture stunning images with natural rich skin tones, subtle details, low noise and accurate color reproduction that is second to none.
Leaf Credo digital backs work seamlessly with the Mamiya 645DF camera - which offers shutter speeds up to 1/4000 of a second and sync speeds of up to 1/1600 of a second with Schneider-Kreuznach designed Leaf shutter lenses.
Leaf Credo digital camera backs are compatible with over 80 large and medium format cameras
Pricing for the Leaf Credo 40 starts at € 14,995/$19,495. The Leaf Credo 60 is listed at €24,995/$32,495 and the Leaf Credo 80 for € 29,995/$38,995. Shipping is planned for June, 2012
More info is available on Leaf Credo digital camera backs (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/products_credo.asp) and yes we already have a few working demo units! This is one of them being used on the Great Wall of China last Thursday during an event in Beijing and over the weekend at the P&E trade-show:
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What's the live view functionality like? Do you still need to use ND filters in order to use live view with the aperture wide open?
Also, any idea what the sensor sizes are? Will there be one with a full 56mm width?
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Hi Yair,
Great job! congratulates
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Arghh. Yet another morning.
I'm happy to see Mamiya Leaf is doing something.
More seriously, what Phase/Leaf users need these days is a decent camera body, not another back. I expect they might finally have one around Photokina, or maybe they will just bite the bullet and go all liveview and mirrorless ....
And yes, pricing. Nikon have this neat plastic thingy called a D800, it costs as much as a lenscap for a Leaf system, and can probably still make decent images at ISO 800, thereby saving you a pile of money for studio lights.
Please excuse my optimism. I'll go and pop another Prozac.
Edmund
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Arghh. Yet another morning.
I'm happy to see Mamiya Leaf is doing something.
More seriously, what Phase/Leaf users need these days is a decent camera body, not another back. I expect they might finally have one around Photokina, or maybe they will just bite the bullet and go all liveview and mirrorless ....
And yes, pricing. Nikon have this neat plastic thingy called a D800, it costs as much as a lenscap for a Leaf system, and can probably still make decent images at ISO 800, thereby saving you a pile of money for studio lights.
Please excuse my optimism. I'll go and pop another Prozac.
Edmund
Edmund :)
Unfortunately, I agree with you about the future MFDB. We are witnesses of another revolution. prices fall, rental goes bankrupt (everyone can afford to D800). quality of the D800 is sufficient for most magazines. in effect, the market for Hasselblad and P1 shrink dramatically. I go apply vicodin ;)
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Edmund :)
Unfortunately, I agree with you about the future MFDB. We are witnesses of another revolution. prices fall, rental goes bankrupt (everyone can afford to D800). quality of the D800 is sufficient for most magazines. in effect, the market for Hasselblad and P1 shrink dramatically. I go apply vicodin ;)
I think the market will allways be there. As long as the image-quality is better than Canon/Nikon there will
allways be a number of people that wants the best.
Phase had great succesful last year, and I am sure they will continue growing.
I think the difference between MF and canon/nikon is just as big now as it has been.
Henrik
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Hi Yair
Where does the battery go on the new backs, is it still possible to use larger Batteries or is this now as with the Phase Backs limited to 2200 ?
regards
Stefan
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They say the battery is 2.900
Henrik
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Ok, so now big question is (despite the question about the prices but I'd rather not ask that one) what are the differences between Credo and IQ digiback lines?
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And is Leaf Capture out?
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FWIW, the "quality" of the Canon 5D or 1DS MkII were enough for magazine work and on par with anything and everything once the job was printed...so save the thousands extra you'll have to pay for a D800 and get some more good lights.
If anything, medium format has a different "look" than 35mm (and still does and always will), and if you don't see it you'd have to be virtually insane to buy into it.
The quality difference is splitting hairs, and has been for years, imo.
Having said that, there were a few issues with Leaf backs that I would have liked to have been fixed:
• Better ISO
• Better LCD
• A more solid and refined file (no more blooming/green stripes issues).
• Faster frame rates
• Dual Card storage
• Faster tetheing
• Better Live View
Is this the case? Or are we seeing an Aptus II with a better screen?
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For Photographers who are in a thriving market this camera looks bloody wonderful.
T
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Rebranded IQ backs?
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Edmund i am doing the red wine at least it has some health benefits :-)
Arghh. Yet another morning.
I'm happy to see Mamiya Leaf is doing something.
More seriously, what Phase/Leaf users need these days is a decent camera body, not another back. I expect they might finally have one around Photokina, or maybe they will just bite the bullet and go all liveview and mirrorless ....
And yes, pricing. Nikon have this neat plastic thingy called a D800, it costs as much as a lenscap for a Leaf system, and can probably still make decent images at ISO 800, thereby saving you a pile of money for studio lights.
Please excuse my optimism. I'll go and pop another Prozac.
Edmund
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And we can add two new LS lenses :)
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I guess the CCD sensors are essentially the same as in prior products? Since many of the experienced limitations (sluggish live view requiring ND filter, poor high ISO) is due to the sensor technology I would not expect any vast improvements for that. These backs are probably very similar to the Phase One IQ-series in terms of live view, and some do find that good enough for actual use despite the limitations. A modern up to date GUI and display is also a great thing.
I don't see any air vents on the pictures, does this mean that these backs are without fan?
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What's the live view functionality like? Do you still need to use ND filters in order to use live view with the aperture wide open?
Also, any idea what the sensor sizes are? Will there be one with a full 56mm width?
80 and 60mp versions are 53.7 x 40.4mm
40mp version is 43.9 x 32.9mm
No 56mm wide version.
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And is Leaf Capture out?
The Credo does not support Leaf Capture. DT, and many others have been working to transition Mamiya Leaf users to Capture One for a long time now. So if you haven't done so yet, I'd suggest jumping on one of our Capture One Online Classes (https://digitaltransitions.com/event/training).
Leaf Capture will still continue to receive minor updates for things like new OS releases and minor bug fixes; however, if you were waiting for a signal that Leaf Capture is not the future for Mamiya Leaf - this is it.
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Having said that, there were a few issues with Leaf backs that I would have liked to have been fixed:
• Better ISO
• Better LCD
• A more solid and refined file (no more blooming/green stripes issues).
• Faster frame rates
• Dual Card storage
• Faster tetheing
• Better Live View
Is this the case? Or are we seeing an Aptus II with a better screen?
Better ISO: modest improvements compared to Aptus II.
Better LCD: one of the best of any camera of any kind
A more Solid and Refined File: yes better anti-blooming, better overall extreme-situation handling, more robust file handling
Faster Frame Rates: Better sustained shooting rates. No more buffer. However, similar shot-to-shot speeds.*
Dual Card storage: no
Faster Tethering: YES
Better Live View: yes. Still not a dSLR CMOS-style live view. But especially the Credo 80 will impress Aptus-II owners regarding quality of Live View.
*See here for Mamiya Leaf Credo frame rates (https://digitaltransitions.com/news/the-new-leaf-credo-digital-back) for each back.
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80 and 60mp versions are 53.7 x 40.4mm
40mp version is 43.9 x 32.9mm
No 56mm wide version.
Damn - that's one of the nice things about the Aptus-II 10 - pair it with a Digiron 23 and you end up with a horizontal angle of view equivalent to around 14.8mm on a 35mm sensor, which is the widest you can get on a MFDB at the moment. No live view, though, which hurts - ground glass is fine for large-format work, but not nearly precise enough for pixel sharpness on a MFDB.
Wish they'd come out with a lens and MFDB combination that gave the width of the Schneider 38mm Super Angulon on 612 format... an 18mm lens on a 54mm-wide sensor would be nice!
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I don't see any air vents on the pictures, does this mean that these backs are without fan?
Correct. The Credo uses passive cooling rather than an active fan. No fan = no air vents.
What does that mean? Basically the internal components are designed to suck heat away from the sensor.
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Thanks for the lecture, Robert. Most of us here own MF, in my case Phase.
What *you* don't talk about apart from the look is that the *body* difference from 35 to MF is far from splitting hairs, it's like traveling back in time. In fact I think it was easier to use my 1920 plane-film view camera than the current MF bodies; at the very least the plane film camera didn't need 6AA batteries and one camcorder battery like my AFDII and P45+, and the ground glass showed a much better image than that selfsame P45+.
I guess I'll go and have a glass of claret and dream of my youth. Bygones.
Edmund
FWIW, the "quality" of the Canon 5D or 1DS MkII were enough for magazine work and on par with anything and everything once the job was printed...so save the thousands extra you'll have to pay for a D800 and get some more good lights.
If anything, medium format has a different "look" than 35mm (and still does and always will), and if you don't see it you'd have to be virtually insane to buy into it.
The quality difference is splitting hairs, and has been for years, imo.
Having said that, there were a few issues with Leaf backs that I would have liked to have been fixed:
• Better ISO
• Better LCD
• A more solid and refined file (no more blooming/green stripes issues).
• Faster frame rates
• Dual Card storage
• Faster tetheing
• Better Live View
Is this the case? Or are we seeing an Aptus II with a better screen?
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is the Hy6 no longer supported by Leaf? I don't see it in the list in the datasheet. Same question for the H4X.
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is the Hy6 no longer supported by Leaf? I don't see it in the list in the datasheet. Same question for the H4X.
No Hy6 version of the Leaf Credo.
H4X is fully supported (as is H1/H2).
Also the V mount and Contax mount.
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Doug,
Thanks for the reply.
Are you sure about the H4X? Because it is not listed in the datasheet and the Leaf Aptus-II does not support the H4X.
Regards, Joris.
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Are you sure about the H4X? Because it is not listed in the datasheet and the Leaf Aptus-II does not support the H4X.
The Aptus-II does not support the H4X. The Credo will.
Of course I'm an eternal skeptic so I suppose the only 100% verification is when I have a Credo and an H4X in my hands and shoot the crap out of it. My answer is based on my personal Q&A with Leaf itself. The H4X will be supported.
We (Digital Transitions) expect our Demo unit to arrive very soon and would be happy to set up a remote webcam demonstration/test for you (or if you're in NYC come over to the office and we can grab a beer after). Just shoot me an email or fill out our request form at the bottom of our Leaf Credo (https://digitaltransitions.com/news/the-new-leaf-credo-digital-back) page.
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Hi Doug!
When you talk about better LV. Is that tethered?
How is the LV on the back compared to the IQ backs?
Henrik
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When you talk about better LV. Is that tethered?
Tethered or untethered. In some ways the experience is even better untethered since your eyes don't have to go back and forth to the computer screen and the interface to zoom in or move around is touch based (very intuitive).
Don't get me wrong; this isn't CMOS live view you'd find in e.g. 5DIII. The range of acceptable light is somewhat narrow (no bright sunlight wide-open without ND filters), the refresh times are several fps, and bright specular highlights aren't handled perfectly, but it is a big step up for anyone coming from an Aptus II, and will prove useful to many style of photography.
How is the LV on the back compared to the IQ backs?
Very similar.
Credo 80 will be modestly better at LV than the Credo 60 and 40.
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But is the LV on the screen good enough for perfect focusing?
And do you know any upgrade-prices from Aptus 12??
Henrik
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Tethered or untethered. In some ways the experience is even better untethered since your eyes don't have to go back and forth to the computer screen.
Very similar.
Maybe what we really want is a pinhole attachment for this new liveview back, thereby obviating the need for a body.
Edmund
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But is the LV on the screen good enough for perfect focusing?
If you know me from this forum then you know my answer is already "best to determine that yourself with your own hands, we'd be happy to help you with a in person demo, rental-towards-purchase, or webcam+screen-share remote evaluation". But since I'm also not shy to provide my own personal opinions...
Tripod based camera, non-moving subject: yes, it's good enough for perfect focusing.
Hand held camera: not useful for focusing.
Tripod based camera, moving subjects (e.g. view of city street with people walking back and forth): only good for composition.
And do you know any upgrade-prices from Aptus 12??
The terminology Mamiya Leaf uses means that an (Aptus-II 12 ---> Credo 80) is not an "upgrade" it is a "cross grade" (same number of megapixels). I'm not endorsing that terminology (clearly - to me - you are upgrading your equipment); I'm just explaining the semantics.
Set pricing is available for "upgrades" (e.g. Aptus-II 8 to Credo 80) No set price is available for "crossgrades" but we (Digital Transitions) would be happy to provide you one that takes into account your backs condition, warranty, etc etc.
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Ok, so now big question is ... what are the differences between Credo and IQ digiback lines?
+1
With the same sensor and LCD specs and the same parent company, is it mainly a matter of the Leaf versions supporting multiple brands of body, and maybe the Phase One body and IQ back options offering some more sophisticated body-lens communication as allowed by the back being designed for a single brand of body?
Oh, and is fan-less passive cooling new for the Credo models?
EDIT: never mind; I was completely misinformed about the ability to use IQ backs on a wide variety of bodies. So the main differences seem to be more subtle aspects of user interface, with the Leaf and Phase One teams apparently working rather independently of each other (in Israel and Denmark respectively?).
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Big questionion is where is Credo 80 R? It will be something that I want to buy Credo not IQ ...
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Ok. but what is the upgrade-price from Aptus ll 8, just to get an idea about pricing?
Henrik
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Ok, so now big question is (despite the question about the prices but I'd rather not ask that one) what are the differences between Credo and IQ digiback lines?
For now, my understanding is to keep in mind that the IQ and the Aptus-II have very different interfaces and quite a few different features (Leaf Aptus-II has the ability to input manual lens focal length metadata, for example) and the new chassis provides some expanded capabilities (Live View, USB3, Enhanced UDMA, etc, along with the enormously improved LCD and processing power).
But many of the pre-existing features and interface function/design will remain unique to Leaf. Not too dissimilar to how a Canon or Nikon differ - similar resolution LCD, perhaps similar sensors, similar functions, but some unique functions also, and different ergonomics and methods for accessing those similar functions.
Steve Hendrix
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Ok. but what is the upgrade-price from Aptus ll 8, just to get an idea about pricing?
Upgrade pricing is a very easy to understand formula for most Aptus II backs. You get XX% off for a XXmp Leaf Aptus-II.
Leaf-Aptus II 5 = 22% off an upgrade to a Credo (40/60/80)
Leaf-Aptus II 6 = 28% off an upgrade to a Credo (40/60/80)
Leaf-Aptus II 7 = 33% off an upgrade to a Credo (40/60/80)
Leaf-Aptus II 8 = 40% off an upgrade to a Credo (60/80)
Leaf-Aptus II 10 = 56% off an upgrade to a Credo (60/80)
List price upgrade for Aptus II 8 to Credo 80 would be 40% off. So instead of $38,995 it would be $23,397.
List price upgrade for Aptus II 10 to Credo 80 would be 56% off. So instead of $38,995 it would be $17,158.
We (Digital Transitions) can also provide pricing for a crossgrade from an Aptus II 12, or from older Mamiya Leaf backs, or from competitive backs. But that pricing will depend on the case-by-case: which back, what condition, what warranty left, etc etc. It's not a dense black-hole though: just give us a call and we should be able to get you a price within 48 hours (sometimes right away during the call).
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Doug has not mentioned it, so I will: the blog at his new workplace, Digital Transitions, now has a FAQ on the Credo backs which might as well be entitled "Doug answers questions asked in the LuLa forums": https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/credo-faq
So thanks Doug. I also note that you have waded into the mire of the news comments at DPReview, full of opinionated people who know even less about DMF that I do, so you are brave!
P. S. Since this is an internet forum, I have to ask one question about Digital Transitions:
Y U no sell Pentax 645D?
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Y U no sell Pentax 645D?
- Not a lot of demand from customers/potential-customers.
- Not a lot of demand by the manufacturer for us to carry it*
- Uncertainty of the long-term (5+ year) commitment of the manufacturer to the product**
- Poor distribution/support/service channel in the US
- Doesn't fit our general mantra of not selling everything, but instead focusing very hard on just a few really great products
*this isn't an ego thing; when the manufacturer cares whether you sell their line it means you get access to the tech and service people who actually build the products and good responsiveness when you need to resolve an unusual issue - VERY important when you're a Value Added Reseller. We have these things from Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Profoto, Cambo, Arca; we don't want to sell products where
**I am NOT trying to do any FUD here. This is a judgement call / opinion. And the considerations are likely a little different for a dealer than an end user. All long-term dealers of medium format / speciality equipment has seen companies enter and leave the market place. When you sell a big production studio 8 digital back systems and walk back in a few years later and that system is obsolete because the manufacturer abandoned it YOU (as the dealer) look really bad. We have great confidence Phase One and Mamiya Leaf will continue producing and supporting medium format systems in the long term; I do not (yet) have that same confidence in Pentax/Ricoh.
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Doug has not mentioned it, so I will: the blog at his new workplace, Digital Transitions, now has a FAQ on the Credo backs which might as well be entitled "Doug answers questions asked in the LuLa forums": https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/credo-faq
Or more completely "Doug answers questions asked in the LuLa forums, GetDPI forums, private forums, phone calls, and the dozen private emails, and three texts, he received before he even woke up"
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I have no wish to criticize Doug who does an excellent job and is appreciated by all here, but I wonder whether he might not communicate our user requests to the manufacturers. And I think many of us like or would have liked:
- A major body revision rather than multiple back revisions Phase/Leaf.
- A sensor with Liveview that really really works. This would also make using an Alpa or similar easy.
- Contrast detect AF maybe, off the big sensor, in Liveview. The Sinar guys hinted this was a possibility, back when the Leaf/Sinar body came out.
- Hi ISO abilities, because every stop in ISO means less lights, less money for lights, less hassle for transportation.
- Slightly more reasonable pricing. I think you can buy a used 5D2 over here for 2 days rental of a Phase back.
Edmund
- Not a lot of demand from customers/potential-customers.
- Not a lot of demand by the manufacturer for us to carry it*
- Uncertainty of the long-term (5+ year) commitment of the manufacturer to the product**
- Poor distribution/support/service channel in the US
- Doesn't fit our general product mantra of not selling everything, but instead focusing very hard on just the very best products.
*this isn't an ego thing; when the manufacturer cares whether you sell their line it means you get access to the tech and service people who actually build the products and good responsiveness when you need to resolve an unusual issue - VERY important when you're a Value Added Reseller. We have these things from Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Profoto, Cambo, Arca; we don't want to sell products where
**I am NOT trying to do any FUD here. This is a judgement call /opinion. Here's what's it's based on. All long-term dealers of medium format / speciality equipment has seen companies enter and leave the market place. When you sell a big production studio 8 digital back systems and walk back in a few years later and that system is obsolete because the manufacturer abandoned it YOU (as the dealer) look really bad. We have great confidence Phase One and Mamiya Leaf will continue producing and supporting medium format systems in the long term; I do not (yet) have that same confidence in Pentax/Ricoh.
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... I think many of us like or would have liked ...
Let me complete that sentence for you:
... a medium format back with a modern CMOS sensor.
And of course, the likelihood and barriers to that are discussed repeatedly, most recently in this thread:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=65967.0
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So no more R version with revolving sensor and articulating screen? And no support for the Hy6 planned?
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I have no wish to criticize Doug who does an excellent job and is appreciated by all here, but I wonder whether he might not communicate our user requests to the manufacturers. And I think many of us like or would have liked:
- A major body revision rather than multiple back revisions Phase/Leaf.
- A sensor with Liveview that really really works. This would also make using an Alpa or similar easy.
- Contrast detect AF maybe, off the big sensor, in Liveview. The Sinar guys hinted this was a possibility, back when the Leaf/Sinar body came out.
- Hi ISO abilities, because every stop in ISO means less lights, less money for lights, less hassle for transportation.
All those requests have been heard. Don't mistake an announcement of one product with a statement that no other products are in development.
- Slightly more reasonable pricing. I think you can buy a used 5D2 over here for 2 days rental of a Phase back.
I don't anticipate the price of a Used 5D2 or new 5D3 will dictate medium format pricing any more than the price of a used 5D or new 5D2 or the dozen "latest and greatest" dSLRs that have come and gone since medium format began. Especially given that sales are up every year since the financial crises.
You can also buy a used Alienbee for the price of two days rental of a good strobe kit. But I don't think that will affect pricing of the Profoto Pro-8 much.
A lot of our customers actually lease (they own at the end, but pay per month for their lease period). Typically in the range of $200-$800/month depending on the kit and length of lease you can see where many photographers end up leasing rather than consistently renting a digital back. Some even set up a dedicated "separate" company so they can rent it to themselves when particular clients say they'll reimburse rentals but not pay for equipment a photographer owns. This is especially true outside of major markets where the pricing/availability of rental is much less competitive.
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So no more R version with revolving sensor and articulating screen? And no support for the Hy6 planned?
No revolving sensor, no articulating screen, no support for Hy6 in the Credo.
It's one of those pesky things about the future that you can't say anything is impossible "in the future" but I would NOT hold your breath.
That said the AFI-10, AFI-12, Aptus II 10R, and Aptus II 12R with those features are still available. And for those looking for a good value, I'd put your name in with a dealer ASAP because I'd expect a lot of Leaf trade-ins as users upgrade to the Credo. Granted these particular backs were not sold in the same volume as the more common Aptus II 12 (non R) or other Aptus II backs, but if ever there was a time to pick one up - now is it. The last hurrah (in my opinion) for the AFi platform.
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Leaf-Aptus II 5 = 22% off an upgrade to a Credo (40/60/80)
Leaf-Aptus II 6 = 28% off an upgrade to a Credo (40/60/80)
Leaf-Aptus II 7 = 33% off an upgrade to a Credo (40/60/80)
Leaf-Aptus II 8 = 40% off an upgrade to a Credo (60/80)
Leaf-Aptus II 10 = 56% off an upgrade to a Credo (60/80)
List price upgrade for Aptus II 8 to Credo 80 would be 40% off. So instead of $38,995 it would be $23,397.
List price upgrade for Aptus II 10 to Credo 80 would be 56% off. So instead of $38,995 it would be $17,158.
Hm... So if you trade a very new back (Aptus ll 12) with the same sensor, that most likely makes the same IQ
we might have to pay 10.000$ or even more. Not really that tempting anymore...in the end the pictures will look the same.
Henrik
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... you can't say anything is impossible "in the future" but I would NOT hold your breath. ... The last hurrah (in my opinion) for the AFi platform.
Doug,
On this and your answer about the Pentax 645D, I am sure that you are just giving us the uncomfortable truths that some people do not want to acknowledge yet. Briefly: to the extent that there will be ongoing development of DMF products for professional photography, it will be based around the Hasselblad and Phase One/Mamiya/Leaf 645 format systems, with any other new DMF products being gradually declining support for "legacy" products that do not require much additional R&D, and for certain amateur niches. Not that some professionals and high level amateurs cannot continue to work with other systems (just as some professionals can successfully use DSLR systems other than Canon or Nikon!)
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To some extent.
Though for the Contax and V bodies, I suspect we'll see near-parity levels of support for many mamy years to come. The reason being the interface (mechanically and electronically) is so incredibly simple and there are no politics. It's like supporting the TIFF format; any 8th grade computer science student can implement support for TIFF (it's that simple) and you don't have to license anything from anyone or worry that the specifications of TIFF will suddenly change.
I suspect we'll also continue to see support for the H platform for a good long while. Phase/Leaf continued their commitment to the H platform even after Hasselblad closed the platform. Hasselblad sort-of returning to the open-platform table with the H4X only improves the odds it will be broadly supported for a good while.
But yes, if I were to bet on a platform, I would bet on the combined platform power of Phase One, Mamiya, Leaf, Schneider, Capture One, and Media Pro along with their industry partners like Profoto (see also: V-Grip Air and USB stick). Especially when you talk about "development" meaning new capabilities, features, and advancements. For instance the ability to sync flash wirelessly at 1/1600th with standard studio strobes; that's not something I would have expected e.g. Pentax, to implement.
Of course - I'm pretty biased :-).
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It makes sense now that the Aptus II 12 was priced 12K lower than the IQ180. They have 3 levels now with the 80MP sensor.
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This is interesting information.
A Paris rental house once explained to me that a rental price of 10% of the equipment per diem was fair because it gave me access to equipment I couldn't afford.
Edmund
A lot of our customers actually lease (they own at the end, but pay per month for their lease period). Typically in the range of $200-$800/month depending on the kit and length of lease you can see where many photographers end up leasing rather than consistently renting a digital back. Some even set up a dedicated "separate" company so they can rent it to themselves when particular clients say they'll reimburse rentals but not pay for equipment a photographer owns. This is especially true outside of major markets where the pricing/availability of rental is much less competitive.
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This is interesting information.
A Paris rental house once explained to me that a rental price of 10% of the equipment per diem was fair because it gave me access to equipment I couldn't afford.
Sounds pretty Parisian.
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Hi Yair
Where does the battery go on the new backs, is it still possible to use larger Batteries or is this now as with the Phase Backs limited to 2200 ?
regards
Stefan
My favorite feature, and your least favorite buddy, lol
but knowing their product shot MO it could be conveniently absent from the shots
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Battery is internal. See also Credo FAQ (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/credo-faq).
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Is the USB 3.0 port on THIS version from Phase/Leaf acctually working for teathering, or are we still at the "future implementation" stage?
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Is the USB 3.0 port on THIS version from Phase/Leaf acctually working for teathering, or are we still at the "future implementation" stage?
Nope! Still the "future implementation" stage. However, we do have a definitive, straight forward statement that - though it's taken much longer than expected - it's NOT vaporware.
Trust me we feel your pain! It cannot come soon enough.
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Sounds pretty Parisian.
I have a feeling that if you are a "real" Parisian you are supposed to bill through to your client and get a backhander.
Edmund
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Sigh, thanks Doug. ( I think :) )
That feature is a real deal breaker for me.
I use Thinkpad workstations in the field for thier durability and exceptional screen.
Having to also cart a Firewire card, a power supply for the Firewire card, a battery supply for the power supply for the Firewire card...............
Maybe soonish.
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Hi Yair
Where does the battery go on the new backs, is it still possible to use larger Batteries or is this now as with the Phase Backs limited to 2200 ?
regards
Stefan
Note also that the mAh is now 2900. That helps some. But looks like these will no longer be options...Of course, if you add (2) 2900's together, it's about the same thickness anyway.
Steve Hendrix
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Since it appears that leaf and phase are using the same chassis, will the 2900 millamp cells for fit I the IQ backs? 300 more millamps will equate to a bit more run time.
Paul
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Just a few thoughts:
1. What happened to to argument that a fan is the best way to keep the CCD at a stable temperature?
2. Why is the Leaf Capture not supported. I have seen that many times that LC produces better details than P1.
3. Will the Credo be more easily broken since there is no protective cover on the screen? And what is the cost of replacing it?
4. How come the lowest ISO is moved down from 50 to 35.
5. Is there any picture quality difference at all against the Aptus 12? And why is there no upgrade path from the Aptus 12?
... and when is a camera to match these backs presented?.... the DF is hated by many and the H-system doesn't have lenses with image-circle to match these backs...
Henrik
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Hi,
There is only one word
Money 8)
It's like VW, you can find same tech in Skoda, Seat, VW. It's cost efective :)
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1. What happened to to argument that a fan is the best way to keep the CCD at a stable temperature?
This argument is still valid and active cooling (fan) does help in removing heat from the electronics. However there are other technological advances in the Credo (it is after all a much newer design!) that provide this facility and that allow us to do away with the fan and the vents
2. Why is the Leaf Capture not supported. I have seen that many times that LC produces better details than P1.
Leaf Capture was designed around the .mos format and as such it does not support any other format. Since we already have Capture One with full support for both of these format, there is little sense in putting R&D resources into adding new file support in LC
3. Will the Credo be more easily broken since there is no protective cover on the screen? And what is the cost of replacing it?
I haven't dropped a Credo yet (I've done this several times with an Aptus) so I don't have 1st hand experience. I expect the replacement cost to be in-line with the Aptus/ P+/ IQ backs
4. How come the lowest ISO is moved down from 50 to 35.
The new electronics design allows us to maximise the dynamic range of the sensor with improved calibration at a very low iso setting. This also allows us to extend the maximum exposure time (2 minutes on the Credo 80)
5. Is there any picture quality difference at all against the Aptus 12? And why is there no upgrade path from the Aptus 12?
We've done quite a bit of work in Capture One to make sure that the character and the Aptus's "look" are maintained. The Credo at 35iso will give you another 1/2 a stop of DR (of course this also depends on the scene/ conditions) and obviously it can do longer exposures.
There is no list price for going from Aptus-II 12 to Credo 80 (or from II 8 to 40, II 10 to 60) since the change is not cost effective to you/ us/ dealer. The dealer can provide a price though, on a case-by-case base.
... and when is a camera to match these backs presented?....
Not yet...
Hope this answers all your questions?
BR
Yair
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Thank you Yair!
This is very clearifying.
Henrik
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It's like VW, you can find same tech in Skoda, Seat, VW. It's cost efective :)
And you forgot Audi!
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And you forgot Audi!
And Bentley and Lamborgini ;)
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And Bentley and Lamborgini ;)
But I don't think any Bentley or Lamborgini actually uses the same chassis as a Seat!
P. S. I once saw a very old Seat in Spain that was a "Seat 500" --- meaning a badge-engineered FIAT 500 ("seat" in Spanish = "fiat" in latin). Strange how it now clones a different brand of cars.
(Do I win a prize for being furthest of-topic?)
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But I don't think any Bentley or Lamborgini actually uses the same chassis as a Seat!
P. S. I once saw a very old Seat in Spain that was a "Seat 500" --- meaning a badge-engineered FIAT 500 ("seat" in Spanish = "fiat" in latin). Strange how it now clones a different brand of cars.
(Do I win a prize for being furthest of-topic?)
Well neither a (current) Bentley nor a (current) Seat have a chassis....and the Lambo's doesn't even look like a chassis...
BTW Seat was making Fiat or Fiat-based cars for more than 30 years before it became part of the VW group
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEkOT3IngMQ&feature=related
;)
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This argument is still valid and active cooling (fan) does help in removing heat from the electronics. However there are other technological advances in the Credo (it is after all a much newer design!) that provide this facility and that allow us to do away with the fan and the ventsLeaf Capture was designed around the .mos format and as such it does not support any other format. Since we already have Capture One with full support for both of these format, there is little sense in putting R&D resources into adding new file support in LC I haven't dropped a Credo yet (I've done this several times with an Aptus) so I don't have 1st hand experience. I expect the replacement cost to be in-line with the Aptus/ P+/ IQ backsThe new electronics design allows us to maximise the dynamic range of the sensor with improved calibration at a very low iso setting. This also allows us to extend the maximum exposure time (2 minutes on the Credo 80)We've done quite a bit of work in Capture One to make sure that the character and the Aptus's "look" are maintained. The Credo at 35iso will give you another 1/2 a stop of DR (of course this also depends on the scene/ conditions) and obviously it can do longer exposures.
There is no list price for going from Aptus-II 12 to Credo 80 (or from II 8 to 40, II 10 to 60) since the change is not cost effective to you/ us/ dealer. The dealer can provide a price though, on a case-by-case base. Not yet...
Hope this answers all your questions?
BR
Yair
Yair,
A few other questions about the differences or similarities between the Aptus II and the Credo:
1) Does the histogram in the Credo read from the raw files or the preview file? Does it work the same way as the Aptus II
in that is it possible to take spot readings from the photograph and have it show up in the histogram. Is this info tool capability available in the histogram when shooting untethered in the Credo?
2) Does the Credo support the grid tool as it exists in the Aptus II when shooting untethered?
Are you able to move grid lines on the LCD to match the content in the photograph?
If so, how do you accomplish this without the use of a stylus?
3) In reference to the LCD panel.......are both the image area and the extended area on the perimeter of the image touch sensitive? Or is it just the perimeter area outside of the image area that is the touch sensitive screen?
4) Is custom white balance possible when shooting untethered?
5) Can you still load LCC correction files via CF card to the back for untethered use?
6) The Aptus II lasted 1-2 hours shooting untethered on the factory supplied batteries, do you have an estimate
of how long the battery lasts when shooting untethered continuously on the Credo?
I am just trying to get my head around the evolution of the Credo...are all the new features listed in the tech sheets in addition to the Aptus II features (untethered) or have some features that made the Aptus II unique been deleted?
thanks
prakash
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1) Does the histogram in the Credo read from the raw files or the preview file? Does it work the same way as the Aptus II
in that is it possible to take spot readings from the photograph and have it show up in the histogram. Is this info tool capability available in the histogram when shooting untethered in the Credo?
I don't think or know if anyone has had enough hand on time to be able to tell you this information, I may be wrong.
2) Does the Credo support the grid tool as it exists in the Aptus II when shooting untethered?
Are you able to move grid lines on the LCD to match the content in the photograph?
If so, how do you accomplish this without the use of a stylus?
I think this is the same as above since I have not seen much information about the software. That said I think he lack of the stylus isn't a major jump since instead of one stylus which you can loose you now have 10 which are much much harder to loose track of.
3) In reference to the LCD panel.......are both the image area and the extended area on the perimeter of the image touch sensitive? Or is it just the perimeter area outside of the image area that is the touch sensitive screen?
Based on the information that I found out from DT and so on and talk about my article here, http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2012/04/23/initial-impressions-leaf-credo-announcement/ , which explains that unlike the PhaseOne IQ series which is entirely touch sensitive the Leaf innovates on this by only having touch sensitive strips along the outside of the image so that you can get a clear view of the image without smudging etc from touching the entire screen.
4) Is custom white balance possible when shooting untethered?
I believe with any back, speaking only from experience with the ones I have used, you have the option to set a white balance based on color temperature, which I believe is what you are referring too.
5) Can you still load LCC correction files via CF card to the back for untethered use?
Software like this again, I wouldn't expect it to change.
6) The Aptus II lasted 1-2 hours shooting untethered on the factory supplied batteries, do you have an estimate
of how long the battery lasts when shooting untethered continuously on the Credo?
Again may be too early for this.
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Is this a good way to treat their costumers >:(?
Leafs costumer care says if I want to change my Aptus 12 (80mp) to a Credo with the same (80mp)
they ask me to pay 15.500$ >:(. My Aptus has done less than 2.000 exposures.
Good deal????
>:( >:( >:(
Maybe Hasselblad wants new costumers..?
LOL
If you want to change your H3DII50 to H4D40 You need to pay 12k Euro. New cost 14k. If you want to upgrade to H4D50 you need to pay 12k Euro. ;D
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Thats really bad..
I guess the best way to loose your money is to buy a new digital back.
Should allways buy a slightly used one. Now the IQ180 can be bougt for 30.000$ with allmost no
usage. Why pay 9.000 more for a new Credo with less functions?
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Hi Prakash, please see my answers below;
Yair,
A few other questions about the differences or similarities between the Aptus II and the Credo:
1) Does the histogram in the Credo read from the raw files or the preview file? Does it work the same way as the Aptus II
in that is it possible to take spot readings from the photograph and have it show up in the histogram. Is this info tool capability available in the histogram when shooting untethered in the Credo?
The histogram is read from the RAW data however there is no spot meter facility
2) Does the Credo support the grid tool as it exists in the Aptus II when shooting untethered?
Are you able to move grid lines on the LCD to match the content in the photograph?
If so, how do you accomplish this without the use of a stylus?
There is a grid tool and you can set the colour and the number of the lines. You cannot move them like you do on your back
3) In reference to the LCD panel.......are both the image area and the extended area on the perimeter of the image touch sensitive? Or is it just the perimeter area outside of the image area that is the touch sensitive screen?
The touch panel covers the image area and adds "strips" on the edges and where the soft buttons are. So you can work within the image or use the soft scrollbars outside of it
4) Is custom white balance possible when shooting untethered?
Yes, there are 3 "spaces" available: Custom 1,2 & 3
5) Can you still load LCC correction files via CF card to the back for untethered use?
This remains one of the Aptus-II's unique features
6) The Aptus II lasted 1-2 hours shooting untethered on the factory supplied batteries, do you have an estimate
of how long the battery lasts when shooting untethered continuously on the Credo?
With the new 2,900mAh batteries we're getting around 3 hrs shooting time, with quite a bit of chimping...
I am just trying to get my head around the evolution of the Credo...are all the new features listed in the tech sheets in addition to the Aptus II features (untethered) or have some features that made the Aptus II unique been deleted?
A few Aptus-II features had to be discarded due to the different architecture and technology i.e. the onboard "operating system" and the touch panel.
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There is no list price for going from Aptus-II 12 to Credo 80 (or from II 8 to 40, II 10 to 60) since the change is not cost effective to you/ us/ dealer. The dealer can provide a price though, on a case-by-case base. Not yet...
Hope this answers all your questions?
BR
Yair
Yair, I was looking forward to the pricing to upgrade my Aptus II 12, as I feel the Credo addresses most of the shortcomings I see in the Aptus II line. However, the pricing for the upgrade to the Credo 80 from the 12 is almost the same as for upgrading to the Credo 80 from the Aptus II 10. I bought your flagship product, and now I feel like I'm being penalized for it.
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Yair, I was looking forward to the pricing to upgrade my Aptus II 12, as I feel the Credo addresses most of the shortcomings I see in the Aptus II line. However, the pricing for the upgrade to the Credo 80 from the 12 is almost the same as for upgrading to the Credo 80 from the Aptus II 10. I bought your flagship product, and now I feel like I'm being penalized for it.
I feel exactly the same!! Really a bad way to trat their best costumers.
Henrik
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Yair, I was looking forward to the pricing to upgrade my Aptus II 12, as I feel the Credo addresses most of the shortcomings I see in the Aptus II line. However, the pricing for the upgrade to the Credo 80 from the 12 is almost the same as for upgrading to the Credo 80 from the Aptus II 10. I bought your flagship product, and now I feel like I'm being penalized for it.
I feel exactly the same!! Really a bad way to trat their best costumers.
Henrik
Henrik, I won't quote the email I have received from Leaf regarding this issue, it would not be considered polite behaviour. But, I can tell you that I need a stiff Scotch shortly upon reading it.
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For this upgrade price to the same res back, we could buy a Nikon 800E with a full set of great lenses.
I would have hoped for a fair treatment from Leaf on this .. I hope this is a bad joke.
When Credo2 comes next year or so we know what to expect.
When you buy a new car you loose 20% value after one year.
When you buy a Leaf back you might loose more than 50% value after one year.
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For this upgrade price to the same res back, we could buy a Nikon 800E with a full set of great lenses.
I would have hoped for a fair treatment from Leaf on this .. I hope this is a bad joke.
When Credo2 comes next year or so we know what to expect.
When you buy a new car you loose 20% value after one year.
When you buy a Leaf back you might loose more than 50% value after one year.
I wish the upgrade from Aptus 12 to Credo 80 was a D800 + a few lenses. It's a little more :) Get a quote...
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As shipping time is near I thought I should share these two videos (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/news_Steffen_Jahn.asp) with the forum, worth watching IMO!!!
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And Bentley and Lamborgini ;)
will the leaf Bentley edition be british racing green with leather side panels?
i guess the Lambo edition will be yellow as the ferrari H/blad is red?
it's going to be really hard to choose between the 2.
::)
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Yair, can you tell us why the trade-in for Aptus 12 with the same sensor is so terribly high (15.000 US$).
We have allways been told that the sensor is so very expensive. Thats a little hard to beleave now.
Someone told me the sensor now costs less than 2.000 US$. Is that correct?
Henrik
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Someone told me the sensor now costs less than 2.000 US$. Is that correct?
That someone must have a very special discount on buying sensors then....
The price of a new Credo 80 is about 8000 USD higher than that of an Aptus-II 12, so a 15K trade-in price is fairly reasonable I believe.
BR
Yair
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That someone must have a very special discount on buying sensors then....
The price of a new Credo 80 is about 8000 USD higher than that of an Aptus-II 12, so a 15K trade-in price is fairly reasonable I believe.
BR
Yair
The reasoning may be a little circular here. Faced with significantly more than 15K to upgrade my Leaf 12 to a Credo 80, which is still crippled compared to the IQ180, it made more sense for me to upgrade to the phase product. For a little more than half of what the Credo upgrade would have cost, I was able to upgrade my Aptus 12 to a used IQ 180 with 2300 clicks and a full warranty. The final straw for me was that the cost for upgrading from the Aptus 10 was the same as the Aptus 12. So buy a flagship product and get screwed. Could not be happier with the IQ 180.
Henrik, I would consider this before shelling out for the Credo, as the IQ still offers more.
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The reasoning may be a little circular here. Faced with significantly more than 15K to upgrade my Leaf 12 to a Credo 80, which is still crippled compared to the IQ180, it made more sense for me to upgrade to the phase product. For a little more than half of what the Credo upgrade would have cost, I was able to upgrade my Aptus 12 to a used IQ 180 with 2300 clicks and a full warranty. The final straw for me was that the cost for upgrading from the Aptus 10 was the same as the Aptus 12. So buy a flagship product and get screwed. Could not be happier with the IQ 180.
Henrik, I would consider this before shelling out for the Credo, as the IQ still offers more.
That was an interesting solution. I think Leaf are pushing their best costumers away with this.
With the Credo you can't even use the Leaf capture.
Did you make this deal privately or through a dealer?
Henrik
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Please note that Credo and IQ trade-in policies are similar when you buy new
The Credo is not even shipping yet so obviously there's no option to buy a used one like Jag did with the IQ...
Normally you should consider buying through/ from the local dealer as they will take care of any shipment costs in case of a warranty/ non-warranty repair
BR
Yair
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That was an interesting solution. I think Leaf are pushing their best costumers away with this.
With the Credo you can't even use the Leaf capture.
Did you make this deal privately or through a dealer?
Henrik
Henrik,
it was through a dealer, and I got the warranty as well. The back looks brand new. With the recent "sale" activity of MFDB's (you may have read all the hoopla as it relates to the D800), I think you should be able to find an IQ 180 quite easily at a dealer. In the end, for me, the IQ offered the best feature set, and paying significantly less than for the Credo upgrade was a huge bonus and a no-brainer.
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Thank you!
I can not see any reason to buy a new Credo with those trade-in prices.
I can buy a IQ180 used for just 5-8.000 more.
Or maybe a D800e will do the job...
..and we can leave the sinking ship in time..
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Hi,
If anyone is in London UK on the 21st June 2012 and wants to have a hands on with the New MamiyaLeaf Credo, then pop along to Peartreephoto, they are having an open day from 10am - 8pm.
It's worth going along as they will be having a free BBQ, drinks and every attendee will be entered into a prize draw to win a Apple iPad 16Gb. :)
the details are on their news page www.peartreephoto.com/news.php
Darius.
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There's a bunch of events coming where we're going to show the new Credo backs and where you can have a hands-on demo, starting tomorrow at the new Calumet store in Stuttgart, Germany (http://"http://www.calumetphoto.de/eng/storeLocator/redirect.cfm?sectionID=b2c/storeLocator/storeDetails.cfm&storeId=30&locationId=9155&var=d&ckey=DE")
All the various events are listed on our website (http://"http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/news_events.asp")
I'll be in Paris on 18-19/6, Manchester on 21/6 and Amsterdam on 25/6 for anyone who wishes to come along and say hello
BR
Yair
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If you are in the Netherlands or in South Germany and wish to have a hands-on with the Credo 80, we'll be at Eyes On Media (http://www.eyesonmedia.nl/25-juni-meet-the-credo-s.html) on Monday and at Photo Universal (http://www.leaf-deutschland.de/ClubNews/2012/04_2012.html) on Tuesday
Have a good weekend!
Yair
PS this is from Yesterday in Manchester, UK ;)