Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: shaner21 on April 15, 2012, 07:43:15 pm

Title: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: shaner21 on April 15, 2012, 07:43:15 pm
A relative newcomer to landscape photography and going on my first photo trip for landscapes.  I would like to ask those more experienced, when taking photos of landscape scenes, how do you ensure the image is sharp throughout?  Thank you for any advice.
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: marcmccalmont on April 15, 2012, 07:48:54 pm
Use a tripod, cable release and mirror lockup (or liveview)
focus on the most dominant feature in the scene
Use liveview zoomed in to focus
for most newer dslrs use aperture from about f5.6 to f11, I tend to use f8 a lot but if I need more depth of field I'll use up to f16
Marc

PS shoot RAW and use deconvolution sharpening
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: shadowblade on April 15, 2012, 08:27:47 pm
With the newer, high-resolution bodies, tilt-shift lenses, or view cameras with movements, are you friend, when you're trying to make a landscape sharp from foreground to horizon while avoiding diffraction effects from stopping down too much.
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Tony Jay on April 15, 2012, 11:38:35 pm
All good information so far.

I would add these:
Anchor you tripod by hanging a heavy object (perhaps a large full camera bag or a strong bag filled with rocks) with just enough touching the ground to prevent it swinging in a breeze.
Place a beanbag on top of your camera to damp vibration - even with mirror lockup or live view there is mechanical movement.

Make every effort to keep all your sensels (pixels to the uninitiated) in play.

Also, check the sensel pitch of your sensor and do some research to find out the diffraction limits (there is no one size fits all here) that determine at what f-stop diffraction starts to influence sharpness (or more accurately accutance). In my camera it is f11 but this may not be true for your camera.

Finally, shoot several exposures of the same scene including bracketing exposure in case one gets it wrong the first time, but also vary where one is focusing. This is important especially if you do not have live view and depth of field preview. BTW I use live view and depth of field preview together to check crucial focus.

Good luck and enjoy yourself.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: stamper on April 16, 2012, 03:58:15 am
Follow the advice of the famous award winning Scottish landscape photographer - Colin Prior - and focus on the most important part of the image and set the aperture to f/11. Don't worry if the edges of your image appear a little soft. Many believe it is impossible to get everything in a landscape sharp, just acceptably sharp.
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Rob C on April 16, 2012, 09:59:02 am
Follow the advice of the famous award winning Scottish landscape photographer - Colin Prior - and focus on the most important part of the image and set the aperture to f/11. Don't worry if the edges of your image appear a little soft. Many believe it is impossible to get everything in a landscape sharp, just acceptably sharp.


Stamp, are you suggesting pano film cameras?

Believe me, holding hands with that Mamiya 67 ll the other day was a very emotional experience: film is still more than a little sexy; if you don't believe me, check with WalterEG, whose credentials are more than pretty damned good. Anyway, Prior has to be one of the most accomplished shooters I've ever seen.

Rob C
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: stamper on April 16, 2012, 10:24:42 am
Rob, I don't have any experience with film. I know from reading an article of Colin Priors from a few years ago he was scathing about hyper focal distance and the jargon that surrounds it. What I stated is what his answer was to getting everything sharp....or not.
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Ellis Vener on April 16, 2012, 12:58:38 pm
How to focus - really focus when shooting landscapes.

Use a tripod every time you have a chance. Failing that a rock or a tree.

Pay attention to the composition and the light. If the light makes everything look dull shoot something else, maybe just a detail that is more suggestive of the place and of the experience of being in it. Also if the light in the scene in front of you is fantastic , turn around and see what it is doing to things in other directions including above you.

Don't settle for always shooting at eye-level, get funky and get down or get it up higher. A change in perspective can make a world of difference.

A backpack, a belt bag, or a shoulder bag full of whatever gear you aren't using at the moment makes for a wonderful ballast bag for a tripod or as a ground pod. Getting the bag off your back  gets you to stop being a human mule too. Tire, stiff muscles make for a tired, stiff  mind.

Bring a close focusing lens.

Don't carry too much stuff - it gets in the way.

About composition: satisfy your eye and mind first, listen to the blah-blah-blah about the rules of composition later. No one sees quite the same way do. Respect that.

You aren't seeing deeply enough or carefully enough or imaginatively enough if you walk away feeling like you got everything.

Practice doesn't make perfect - practice makes better.

Get out earlier and stay up later. But get good sleep too.

Be prepared to initially hate almost everything you shot. Being able fairly judge your work takes time.

What is also true is that a really great shot will announce its presence immediately, sometimes even while you are shooting. Chimp (looking at the camera's on board preview screen) sparingly. Remember that it is officially called a preview screen - it isn't the real deal.

Physically focusing: If your camera has it, use Live view and it's magnify function in conjunction with an LCD covering loupe (I like the 3x Hoodman) to compose and focus with. Use manual focus. Unless all of that takes too long and Somethign amazing is happeninfg in front of you. In which case aperture priority exposure mode is great.

Bracketing exposures brackets your treatment of the subject matter.  Use Exposure as a creative tool. Sometimes makign a scene scorchingly bright or your shadows really dark tells a better story than a technically accurate description of the place and people like stories.

If you do use autofocus and your cameras have the function, use the auto-focus micro-adjustment tool to make sure your camera bodies are tuned to your lenses.

As the man said: focus on what you feel is the most telling feature in the scene. If there are any books set in that locale, read 'em. It will help you develop a feel for the place.

Most importantly: stay loose and have fun; let yourself play.

I know you asked a technically based question but technique is just a tool for sharing  your imagination.
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: new_haven on April 16, 2012, 01:35:36 pm
I've found this technique to be very useful.
http://www.optechsdigital.com/Alpa_and_Hyperfocal.html
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Rob C on April 16, 2012, 05:33:54 pm
Rob, I don't have any experience with film. I know from reading an article of Colin Priors from a few years ago he was scathing about hyper focal distance and the jargon that surrounds it. What I stated is what his answer was to getting everything sharp....or not.


Colin Prior:

Linhof Technikardan; Fujifilm 6x17. At least, in the RotoVision Landscape book that I bought in Glasgow's Waterstone's some years ago, that's what he's listed as using. I have no idea about today or even if he got so rich he retired! Maybe he discovered digital?

At least he did some cracking assignments for airlines.

Regarding DOF: one of the best bits of advice I ever had on the subject, as a lad, came from a rather raw amateur who had one blinding insight: he said, in effect, DOF doesn't exist - there is only one thin plane critically sharp, so make that the one where your main subject exists. Nothing I've seen since has proved him wrong, movements included, for they just shift that plane around...

Rob C
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on April 16, 2012, 06:13:48 pm
A lot of good advice above, which you will find really handy... a couple of years from now, when you catch up with all the fancy terminology ;)

In the meantime, follow this advice from the patron saint of landscape photographers, Ansel Adams: "There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept."

Thus, work on your concept first.

P.S. Sharpness is overrated anyway (or shall I say "the last resort of the untalented"?)
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Tony Jay on April 16, 2012, 06:44:10 pm
I heartily agree with the evolution of information on this thread.
How to focus and maximise depth of field is important but what to focus on, composition, and one's artistic intent - crucial to making a great image.

Ellis is right - a lot of practice is required.
However one ought to have a lot of fun watching one's photography improve.
One never loses the thrill of seeing a creative idea come to life in an image.
As mentioned several times in different ways - work the subject - a single image is never enough.
This is important because the quickest way to learn is to discover what doesn't work.

Enjoy

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: shaner21 on April 16, 2012, 09:48:13 pm
Thank you so much for the feedback.  It gives me lots to think about. 
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Fine_Art on April 17, 2012, 03:35:57 am
I typically take 2 sets of shots (on APS-C 1.5 factor vs 35mm). A 20mm FL @ around f8, going pano stitch if necessary. Focus is on the foreground.
A 50mm 3 row stitch @f5.6-f8, one row foreground, one row main subject, one row background/sky.
On the Tetons for example I did 6 shots across by 3 high.

I set 2 cameras on 2 tripods to do this in fast changing light.

Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: ripgriffith on April 17, 2012, 05:13:41 am
How to focus - really focus when shooting landscapes.


Don't settle for always shooting at eye-level, get funky and get down or get it up higher. A change in perspective can make a world of difference...


...Most importantly: stay loose and have fun; let yourself play.



What he says... remember, photography is not a spectator sport!
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on April 17, 2012, 06:12:06 am
... Most importantly: stay loose and have fun; let yourself play...

+1010
Excellent post, Ellis!
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: JohnBrady on April 17, 2012, 12:23:00 pm
I shoot a lot of 8x10 film still, sometimes with landscape there is no main subject to focus on. I use very wide angle lenses which make it pretty easy to get maximum depth of field. I typically focus about 1/3 of the way into my scene and then stop down. With 8x10 and a lens such as the Nikon 120sw I stop down to f45. I do not use a loop but just view the ground glass with my reading glasses. With trees in the scene front tilt isn't an option so this method serves me well.

At $10 a sheet for Fuji Velvia, you take a lot of time planning your composition, light, wind, focus, etc. I shoot digital the same way out of habit.

When shooting digital I typically use Canon Tilt Shift 17 and 24 lenses and focus the same way and stop down to f16.

www.timeandlight.com
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Hening Bettermann on April 17, 2012, 04:26:44 pm
 > how do you ensure the image is sharp throughout?

nobody mentions focus stacking??
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Tony Jay on April 17, 2012, 05:38:35 pm
The man is still trying to find his feet.
Once he is taking some good shots and has learn't the strengths and weaknesses of his equipment then it would be worth his while to start experimenting with focus stacking.
It is not a magic bullet solution so not an automatic choice to solve all depth of field issues.

Apart from potential issues with halo effects etc there is the issue of movement between shots to consider.
The man may not even currently own appropriate software to focus stack.

Hence, I think, the emphasis on "in camera" methodology.

Regards

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Ellis Vener on April 17, 2012, 08:06:06 pm
"The man is still trying to find his feet.
Once he is taking some good shots and has learn't the strengths and weaknesses of his equipment then it would be worth his while to start experimenting with focus stacking.
It is not a magic bullet solution so not an automatic choice to solve all depth of field issues."

I totally agree. The emphasis some people, especially here in the Lu-la forums, put on exotic techniques and tools  is far out of balance with their actual viability in simply making good photos to start with. Focus stacking is really one of those last resort solutions. I'm glad I know how to do it, and have the tools to do it but only turn to when all else fails.
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: DougJ on April 18, 2012, 01:21:08 am
Hi Marc,

What deconvolution software are you using.

Ciao,

Doug
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: marcmccalmont on April 18, 2012, 04:21:54 am
Focus Fixer it is old and doesn't work with 64 bit programs but I like the results
I'm still searching for a better replacement
Marc
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Rob C on April 18, 2012, 06:46:48 am
I totally agree. The emphasis some people, especially here in the Lu-la forums, put on exotic techniques and tools  is far out of balance with their actual viability in simply making good photos to start with. Focus stacking is really one of those last resort solutions. I'm glad I know how to do it, and have the tools to do it but only turn to when all else fails.




I think you can probably extend that idea sideways: in my own view, simple is usually best, and tricks for trick's sake is a PITA that some might find pleasant but that I'd rather avoid if I can. That's sometimes just part of the digi game: this can be done, so it has to be done or something is wrong with the shooter. I am happy to continue along in my innocence, taking what pleasures I can from pictures and trying not to exchange that for challenges. What's with these people who claim to like challenges? Hell's teeth, I want life to go as smoothly as it possibly can! Leave battles to warriors; protect your heart and nerves!

Rob C
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on April 18, 2012, 07:51:05 am
Focus Fixer it is old and doesn't work with 64 bit programs but I like the results
I'm still searching for a better replacement

Hi Marc,

You can always try RawTherapee, even on e.g. a TIFF input instead of Raw. It supports a decent implementation of the Richardson-Lucy deconvolution method which does quite well with regular (unsharpened) images (and not only images from the Hubble Space Telescope where it was used by NASA to recover from an optical design flaw).

Topaz Labs have an InFocus plug-in, but it needs some more work to protect inexperienced users from generating too many artifacts.

I still use the 32-bit FocusMagic plugin, and it does a great job but future technical support seems unsure.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: MarkL on April 18, 2012, 09:53:43 am
From viewing exhibitions I have found that a lot of landscape photographers often leave far distances to go out of focus and personally it bothers me.

> how do you ensure the image is sharp throughout?

nobody mentions focus stacking??

I use helicon focus a lot of landscapes and wouldn't be without it, there is no need to shoot at f/22 on a dslr eating up sharpness (unless things are moving). I'm surprised so few people use it.
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: marcmccalmont on April 18, 2012, 01:40:51 pm
Hi Marc,

You can always try RawTherapee, even on e.g. a TIFF input instead of Raw. It supports a decent implementation of the Richardson-Lucy deconvolution method which does quite well with regular (unsharpened) images (and not only images from the Hubble Space Telescope where it was used by NASA to recover from an optical design flaw).

Topaz Labs have an InFocus plug-in, but it needs some more work to protect inexperienced users from generating too many artifacts.

I still use the 32-bit FocusMagic plugin, and it does a great job but technical support seems unsure.

Cheers,
Bart
Bart
I've been meaning too download RT, sometime soon
Marc
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Hening Bettermann on April 18, 2012, 01:59:33 pm
Right. Just, I think this description will not be easy to follow, and the "jargon" 'focus stacking' will quickly provide the OP with a lot of links that will put him on the track.
Good light! - Hening
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Hening Bettermann on April 18, 2012, 04:08:00 pm
> isn't it the same idea?

Certainly.

> My guess is that you wouldn't call this "focus stacking"

I would. I would call it focus stacking + pano stitching, which is a step further. OTOH 3 focus slices may not be enough in many cases. But these are details. - I don't quite understand what you find 'narrow' about the term/track 'focus stacking'. My idea was that the *term* (rather than a description) when googled  would quickly lead the OP to the subject.

Good light!
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 18, 2012, 04:22:59 pm
Hi,

I have a small write up on my experience here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/29-handling-the-dof-trap

Best regards
Erik


From viewing exhibitions I have found that a lot of landscape photographers often leave far distances to go out of focus and personally it bothers me.

I use helicon focus a lot of landscapes and wouldn't be without it, there is no need to shoot at f/22 on a dslr eating up sharpness (unless things are moving). I'm surprised so few people use it.
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Hening Bettermann on April 18, 2012, 06:30:52 pm
Uff!
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on April 18, 2012, 07:30:56 pm
Hairsplitters of the world, unite! ;)
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: elf on April 20, 2012, 01:42:08 am
                             


                                            Merklinger
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: DougJ on April 20, 2012, 02:24:35 am
That's what I use as well, Marc.  I'm in the process of moving over to W7 and had to ask Acclaim for a new registration code for my V3.02 (IIRC) version of Focus Magic.

Ciao,

Doug





Focus Fixer it is old and doesn't work with 64 bit programs but I like the results
I'm still searching for a better replacement
Marc
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: figure1a on May 31, 2012, 11:42:41 pm
Shoot tethered! http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ninevolt/digiplate/posts/237894
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: HSakols on June 01, 2012, 09:09:03 am
No one has mentioned finding good light!!  That's the hardest part regardless of your f stop.
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: jonathan.lipkin on June 16, 2012, 10:05:39 pm
You should also be concerned about print sharpness. What you see on the screen does not necessarily translate into what you'll see in a a print. Learn about input and output sharpening. There are many resources, including the print to screen videos from this site, the book Real World Image Sharpening, Martin Evening's book Photoshop CS6 for Photographers, etc.
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: spotmeter on June 19, 2012, 12:48:10 am
A relative newcomer to landscape photography and going on my first photo trip for landscapes.  I would like to ask those more experienced, when taking photos of landscape scenes, how do you ensure the image is sharp throughout?  Thank you for any advice.

The first step, long before you go on the trip, is to see if your lens and camera are even capable of taking sharp photos throughout.

I print all my landscape photos 5 to 10 feet long and everything is in focus.  This is how I do it.

First, I mount on a ten foot wall five targets of sharp Word documents with type size from 8 to 72 point.  The targets are set up so that one is placed in each of the top corners of the wall and the lower ones placed so that all are recorded in each corner of a photo, and one in the center. I usually start with a 50mm lens on my camera, mounted on a solid Gitzo tripod with no column and a loaded backpack slung over the tripod for weight and a solid B55 ball head. I use Live View and a cable release. The camera is mounted so that it is exactly opposite the center of the wall and parallel to the wall. I move the tripod and camera forward or back until all four corner targets are in the corners of the viewfinder. I then focus on the center of the center target, using Live View with a Zacuto magnifier, and even use the magnifier of the live view. I then shoot a photo with each f stop, refocusing each time if necessary. I always shoot in RAW.  I move the tripod and camera forward for wider angle lenses, and back for longer lenses.

Then I review each photo, looking at each target on a large screen monitor, writing down the smallest typeface that is sharp and clear. In this way, I find out if there is something wrong with the mount or sensor of the camera.  Some can be out of alignment, so that all the photos are soft on the left or right, top or bottom. In this case, you need to return the camera, or,if it is too late, have it repaired. Be sure to send the shop prints that show what the problem is.

Once I have confirmed that sensor and mount are aligned, I can then tell if something is wrong with a particular lens. Some can be put together incorrectly, so that one side of the photo is out of focus, while the other side is sharp.  Since I test all lenses as soon as I get them, I return any that are out of focus from side to side, or corner to corner.

Once I know that the camera and lens are aligned, the f stop I am looking for is the one that produces sharp corners without blurring the center by diffraction. If the lens cannot achieve this, I return it and find one that will. As a result of this process, most of my lenses are primes made by Zeiss, although the new 24mm TS-E from Canon is stunning. Unfortunately, I am moving to Nikon D800E as Canon dropped the ball with the 5D3, so I have to start all over with my lens testing. Fortunately, many of the Zeiss lenses I bought early on came with a Nikon mount, for which I bought Canon adapters.

The next step is to repeat the tests at infinity, as lenses can function differently near and far.  I usually use power lines as they are easy to see if in focus or not. If, for instance, you find a big difference in sharpness from a lens wide open to f8, then it may be that your infinity focus is off and you need to have a shop adjust your lens.

If you don't test your camera and lenses before your trip, you won't know if your equipment is even capable of taking sharp pictures.

Once you are in the field, use your solid tripod, no center column, a weight, Live View, Zacuto viewfinder, and cable release. Using my optimum aperture that that lens, I focus on the nearest element in the picture and take a shot.  Then I move back in the scene to the area that looked soft, and take another sharp photo. I repeat this until I have sharp photos of the entire scene. Then I combine these using focus stacking software. In some cases, I only have to take one photo. In other cases, I have had to take up to seven photos, particularly doing macro work.  I never rely on hyper-focal settings as they are completely unreliable.

If you are shooting a landscape at infinity, then you only have to take one exposure to get a sharp photo throughout.

This, of course, only makes a photo sharp. In landscapes, it's unlikely that the entire light range can be captured in one exposure.  This means you may have to repeat the process, exposing for the shadows, mid-range and highlights and then combine these with HDR software.

The result will be stunning photographs that your friends will think you captured in one lucky snap.

If you are a newcomer to landscape photography, you can save yourself years of frustration by testing your lenses and camera before you shoot.  You will also find the care put into testing will carry over to your photos.  You won't waste your time and equipment on uninteresting photographs.
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 19, 2012, 02:51:36 am
Quote
... You will also find the care put into testing will carry over to your photos.  You won't waste your time and equipment on uninteresting photographs.

Indeed... Once you start getting off from brick walls, your every picture would tend to look just as interesting.
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Rob C on June 19, 2012, 05:01:07 am
Indeed... Once you start getting off from brick walls, your every picture would tend to look as interesting.


Meaow...

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: Lightsmith on June 22, 2012, 06:38:31 pm
The advice to select a primary point of interest and have it sharply in focus is great place to start. To say everything has to be in sharp focus is to say that all aspects of the scene are of equal importance and that is often not the case.

I learned with my underwater photography to show with a ultra wide angle lens and take a near and far approach with the near object the item of primary interest to me and to the viewer. Focus and lighting is used to separate this primary element from the surroundings and this approach is used with only ambient light with the zone system where a choice is made as to which parts will be put into which zone or with flash as with the excellent work of Frans Lanting.

I agree that using the theoretical hyperfocal distance with digital cameras is not the best approach as foreground objects suffer in terms of sharpness and these are going to usually feature prominently in the completed picture.

Title: Re: Request for Landscape Focusing Advice
Post by: stamper on June 23, 2012, 03:54:53 am
Very good advice. It also saves time and money with respect to charts and having to look at them. The fact that the proponents of hyper focal distance shooting accept that everything can only be considered acceptably sharp means that there is a flaw in their thinking and getting everything sharp isn't possible.