Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: larkis on April 06, 2012, 11:04:43 pm

Title: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: larkis on April 06, 2012, 11:04:43 pm
I posted this on another forum would like to see what the lula community has to say about this as well.

The following is my dilemma. I own the pentax 645D system and a few lenses in the normal and telephoto focal range, but I need a wide angle for some of the shooting I like to do once in a while. With the D800 being quite a nice camera I'm wondering if it's a better choice to get a D800 body and a wide angle nikon lens. The price for the camera and a lens would probably end up being close to the price of the pentax lens alone. The 645D still provides a nicer image based on samples I have seen online and raw files I have tested. Considering there are not a lot of reviews of the SMC Pentax-DA 645 25mm F4 AL [IF] SDM AW that I can find, it's a hard choice to make.

I'm not sure if going with a D800 and a zeiss wide angle would get me to about the same spot as the 645D with the 25mm offering. The added benefit of going with a D800 would be a backup camera body that is in a comparable resolution range and also the faster autofocus/handling for street shooting.

Any constructive comments for the pro's and con's would be welcome. I would prefer if people who own both medium format and FF slr's comment as there seem to be a few members (trolls ?) on here who are anti medium format on principle and refuse to see any of it's benefits.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 06, 2012, 11:22:07 pm
Larkis, I'll be interested in the replies as well since I face the same decision.  The D FA 25mm held the promise of a full frame 645DII, but now the DA version seems not much more than a 35mm lens and at 5K is the cost of a D800 and a 14-24mm.  My own inclination at this point is to use a 35mm on the 645D, stitch when necessary and avoid the 25mm and perhaps use the funds for a D800, a different camera with less apparent (to me) overall IQ, but some distinct advantages.

Tom
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 07, 2012, 03:36:23 am
One first comment is that if you like the rendition of AA filterless bodies then the d800e may be a better option?

On your main question, I have not seen any test results for the 25mm but the Pentax folks I spoke with last year were clearly confident in its performance.

Beyond that it really is a matter if your willingness to manage 2 systems in parallel with the added cost of separate accessories,... And of your ability to become an expert user of these 2 systems, know their limitations and develop the ability to work around them intuitively to deliver results reliably.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: DandA on April 07, 2012, 10:40:47 am
Larkis poses an interesting question and a delema that many of us users of the 645D face.  The advantages in terms of IQ of 645D files is evident but it's hard to say whether it would match a D800 with the 14-24 f2.8 or Zeiss 21mm lenses vs. 645D with the 25mm .

Tom, when you say the DA version of the 25mm is no more than a 35mm, I am a bit confused.  Both the original D FA 25mm and just announced DA 25mm for the 645D would have an angle of view on the 645D of approx 20mm in 35mm full frame terms.  Therefore it would be most like the D800 with the Zeiss 21 or Nikon 14-24 set at 20mm.  Are you saying that if Pentax came out with a full frame 645D body, that the new DA 25mm because of it's reduced image circle (due to reconfigured hood design?) would end up being approx 37.5mm on a full frame 645D (in 35mm FF terms)?  If so, then the original D FA 25mm would be the answer for a purchase now, even if used on the 645D cropped body.  What disadvantages it (the D FA 25mm) might have on the current 645D vs. the DA 25mm, it's hard to know without any definitive test or even a statement by Pentax.

Pentax these days I believe will take it slow in any decisions regarding the 645D and system and it's development.  I think they will be very prudent and cautious and if I was to take an educated guess, the next iteneration of the 645D body will be the same sensor size but with an increase in # of pixels as changing technology (such as those used by Nikon allowing them to use 36MP on a 35mm FF sensor) will extract similar or even better performance from those greater # of pixels.  By using the same sized sensor as so to keep development and production costs down to a minimum and ultimately keep the price/performance advanatge of the 645D in the MF arena, they would hope to keep the system a viable upgrade to FF 35mm (D800 etc.).

Dave (D&A)

Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: theguywitha645d on April 07, 2012, 12:17:59 pm
Are you saying that if Pentax came out with a full frame 645D body, that the new DA 25mm because of it's reduced image circle (due to reconfigured hood design?) would end up being approx 37.5mm on a full frame 645D (in 35mm FF terms)? (D&A)



??? A 25mm on a 645 camera would be the equivalent to a 15mm on 35mm. On a 44x33 format camera, it is similar to a 19mm on a 35mm FF. image circle is just going to limit the format, not the focal length. Or am I not understanding your post?
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: theguywitha645d on April 07, 2012, 12:19:59 pm
Larkis, why not a 35mm on the 645D? The 25mm is really wide. It is a really hard focal length to use.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: DandA on April 07, 2012, 01:38:25 pm
??? A 25mm on a 645 camera would be the equivalent to a 15mm on 35mm. On a 44x33 format camera, it is similar to a 19mm on a 35mm FF. image circle is just going to limit the format, not the focal length. Or am I not understanding your post?

All you wrote is correct. I came to the same figures as you did and stated pretty much the same.  What was just trying to figure out (and why I mentioned the "cropped" statement regarding use of the new DA 25mm on a potential full frame 645D) was based on what Tom expressed in his post (above), where I thought he was saying that the new Da 25mm wouLD end up being like a 35mm lens on full frame 645D?  If one mounted a cropped lens like the DA 25mm on a potential full frame 645D and cropped the image in post processing whereby all vignetting is removed, I supposed the lens might end up being an approx 22mm lens (in 35mm FF terms), not 37.5mm as I previously stated or something thereabouts.

Guess I will wait for Tom's clarification as I'm sure I'm simply not understanding his statement.

Dave (D&A)
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: larkis on April 07, 2012, 02:31:50 pm
I'm not sure of the performance of the 35mm lens. Are there any samples out there ? Plus I do want something that is about 20mm equivalent on a FF 35mm body which the 25 on the pentax comes close to.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: DandA on April 07, 2012, 02:54:29 pm
Hi Larkis,

You might be interested in looking over my review of most of the Pentax FA AF 645 lenses that I used and tested on the 645D, including the FA 35mm f3.5 lens.  The manual focus version of the 35mm is very similar in performance to the Af version with perhaps a bit more sharpness on the sides/edges/corners but with some additional CA present at the wider apertures.  The link to my Penatx 645 lens testing is:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/35577-comprehensive-testing-results-observations-pentax-645-lenses-used-645d.html

Thanks!

Dave (D&A)
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 07, 2012, 02:59:38 pm
Dave:

Sorry for the confusion Dave.  I said "..not much more than 35mm.." and I meant it as a hyperbole.  The D FA will be useable on a full frame 645 sensor and is usable on the 645N now - an extremely wide MF lens and perhaps worth the 5k price.  The reduced coverage DA version is restricted to use on a cropped sensor.  Is it larger than 35mm? Yes of course, but not all that much. I find it difficult to justify the price versus 35mm equivalent lenses, e.g. the Nikon 14-24 for 2k or the Zeiss 21mm prime.  Were I to buy the 25mm, I would get the D FA, which will continue to be available in Japan (who knows why?)  If the only difference between the lenses is the extended shade, and I suspect it is since the lenses have the same specs, one has to wonder why Pentax has done this modification for lenses outside Japan.

Larkis the 35mm A is terrific lens for landscapes , you won’t be disappointed.  Very sharp, some barrel distortion but easily fixed.  The FA gets mixed comments; Dave has more experience with it and may add his thoughts.  Here are two examples of the A version.  EDIT: Just saw Dave's response

Tom

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7015/6710806695_5b7e9d02a9_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/6710806695/)
_IGP41693 copy 2++ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/6710806695/) by tsjanik47 (http://www.flickr.com/people/21294128@N08/), on Flickr.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7024/6799215693_a7d6fcaa4a_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/6799215693/)
1-17_IGP6821_9757 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/6799215693/) by tsjanik47 (http://www.flickr.com/people/21294128@N08/), on Flickr
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: Lacunapratum on April 07, 2012, 10:15:40 pm
I recently posted a similar question here, trying to make sense out of Pentax's medium format strategy.  In the meantime I have decided to get one in the next couple of months.   Here are some of my thoughts.   

For me it is one more albeit expensive item on top of a long list of existing P645 lenses and accessories.  While it may be one of the most expensive items on that list, its cost is still minor compared to what else I have.  The complete system with telephotos, macro, and soft focus options is so valuable that it makes sense for me to add this one. 

I went into medium format at a time when MF was vastly superior over 35mm in terms of tonal values.  Today, I am not so sure whether "vastly" is still true.  These 40MP sensors pretty much do what I have been dreaming for decades ago.  Ricoh appears to have its plans, but I'd be pretty happy if they keep on making the 645D, perhaps a wide angle and a standard zoom, but that would be all I'd need for the perfect high resolution system for myself.  I am not sure whether I’d be terribly disappointed if they wouldn’t make a full-frame successor, even though it might be a nice option.  Thus, either one of the 25mm options would make sense for me. 

Investing into a new system is always an ordeal, since it isn’t limited to the camera or the first lens.  When you go on a trip you need so much more.  Then there is the different handling and different color processing.  If I (ever) was to once more go back to 35mm (I have 4/3 and m4/3) I'd invest in a Canon system as their lens line-up seems to fit the 35mm philosophy even more.  To me, the D800 and the P645 are so close in terms of creative value that it wouldn’t make sense for me to own both. 

Having a Hy6 system and a Horseman frame, I got one of those 24mm Schneider XL lenses.  There have been some discussion about this lens on the net, but mine is top notch and likely beats any retrofocus alternative, including the Pentax 25mm.  My particular setup is also very usable, even without tripod.  Thus, if I need fast maneuverability, the Pentax 25mm will be my choice; for best image quality the 24mm Schneider will be a nice alternative. 
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: DandA on April 08, 2012, 01:48:27 am
Tom Wrote >>>"The reduced coverage DA version is restricted to use on a cropped sensor.  Is it larger than 35mm? Yes of course, but not all that much."<<<

Hi Tom,

I'm sure it's me (as I'm a bit slow in picking up concepts at times), but I still can't quiet figure out what you mean by the D FA lens used on the cropped sensor 645D, is larger than 35mm but not by much.  Still trying to work out the math in my head regarding this statement.  The use of the full frame DA 25mm lens on the 645D is approx 20mm (in 35mm FF terms).  The D-FA 25mm on the 645D should also be the same, 20mm (in 35mm FF terms).  So my question is even if the D-FA 25mm is ued on the cropped sesor 645D, how can it have the field of view of slightly larger than 35mm (in 35mm FF terms).  I must be missing something???

As for the design changes to the D-FA 25mm vs. the DA 25mm, the longer hood certainly makes it unusable on FF 645, but hard to believe this is the only change, otherwise why would Pentax bother.  At the very least, maybe there are addition coatings to prevent flair and reduce CA and also since they mentioned the full frame 25mm was labor intensive in assembly due to the necessity of precise alignment of all the optical elments on such a wide angle when used on FF 645, that maybe the D-FA 25mm can have the precision of assembly and alignment a little more relaxed, due to its eventual use on on  something smaller than full frame 645.

Dave (D&A)
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: pjtn on April 08, 2012, 04:09:22 am
By the little I have seen of the D800e, under ideal circumstances it will do 90% of what the Pentax will do. It does also have a much more expandable system with more lens options, including those fantastic Zeiss.

However I would stay with the 645D and get the 25mm lens, personally. The viewfinder alone is a compelling reason to stay. It seems as though Ricoh will continue development of the 645D platform so who knows what the future may bring, Nikons cards are on the table already, Pentax remains to be seen.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 08, 2012, 09:47:06 am
Tom Wrote >>>"The reduced coverage DA version is restricted to use on a cropped sensor.  Is it larger than 35mm? Yes of course, but not all that much."<<<

Hi Tom,

I'm sure it's me (as I'm a bit slow in picking up concepts at times), but I still can't quiet figure out what you mean by the D FA lens used on the cropped sensor 645D, is larger than 35mm but not by much.  Still trying to work out the math in my head regarding this statement.  The use of the full frame DA 25mm lens on the 645D is approx 20mm (in 35mm FF terms).  The D-FA 25mm on the 645D should also be the same, 20mm (in 35mm FF terms).  So my question is even if the D-FA 25mm is ued on the cropped sesor 645D, how can it have the field of view of slightly larger than 35mm (in 35mm FF terms).  I must be missing something???

As for the design changes to the D-FA 25mm vs. the DA 25mm, the longer hood certainly makes it unusable on FF 645, but hard to believe this is the only change, otherwise why would Pentax bother.  At the very least, maybe there are addition coatings to prevent flair and reduce CA and also since they mentioned the full frame 25mm was labor intensive in assembly due to the necessity of precise alignment of all the optical elments on such a wide angle when used on FF 645, that maybe the D-FA 25mm can have the precision of assembly and alignment a little more relaxed, due to its eventual use on on  something smaller than full frame 645.

Dave (D&A)

Dave:

The statement was an intentional exaggeration, sorry if that wasn't clear.  My only point is that the D FA 25mm is not a full format 645 lens and should not be priced as if it were.

Tom
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: DandA on April 08, 2012, 04:11:13 pm
Dave:

The statement was an intentional exaggeration, sorry if that wasn't clear.  My only point is that the D FA 25mm is not a full format 645 lens and should not be priced as if it were.

Tom

Tom, I couldn't agree more with your statement although if the D-FA is simply the same lens as the DA 25mm lens except with an extended hood, then both lenses would cost Pentax the same amount of $$ producing both.

I still though can't believe the only difference is the hood, otherwise as someone else stated, why then not modify the original hood to be a "sliding type" to meet the needs of both cropped and full frame format.  There must be something else to all this and the whole story isn't clear yet in my opinion, so hopefully we'll receive some clarification from Pentax soon.

Dave (D&A)

Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: Lacunapratum on April 08, 2012, 10:17:58 pm
I asked a similar question earlier.  How could we get that sort of a response from Pentax? 
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: larkis on April 08, 2012, 10:58:24 pm
Perhaps the people who run pentax forums have some contacts with the company ? I would like to hear more from pentax on this lens and what it can and can't do. Keeping your customers in the dark is not a great strategy especially if they are spending thousands of dollars on the products you make.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: EricWHiss on April 09, 2012, 12:04:52 am
Tom,
Nice photos!
Eric
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 09, 2012, 12:25:48 am
Tom,
Nice photos!
Eric


Thanks Eric.  BTW the first image is a stitch of two exposures; although the clouds of the front were moving very quickly, there was no problem combining two shots.  Of course if I'd had the 25mm, I wouldn't need to stitch ;D.

Tom
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: DandA on April 09, 2012, 11:38:52 am
Perhaps the people who run pentax forums have some contacts with the company ? I would like to hear more from pentax on this lens and what it can and can't do. Keeping your customers in the dark is not a great strategy especially if they are spending thousands of dollars on the products you make.

My thoughts exactly! This is a $5000 lens just recently released and there is hardly an explanation from them? This really surprises me, especially that 645 customers are not generally newbies entering photography for the 1st time. Regardless of the price point of this camerA, medium format users generally expect both significant and proper communication regarding a manufacturers medium format equipment, especially when such an important running change is made to a new $5000 lens. This is one particular case where Pentax should tread their customer base carefully and try to address concerns in my opinion.

Dave

Dave
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: Lacunapratum on April 09, 2012, 02:29:17 pm
Just called Pentax USA and was transferred to their 645D expert, who seemed extremely guarded.  He had no information on shipping date, when I discussed with him that it was listed at B&H for May 15 delivery, a date that by now had been removed.  He pointed out that the DA lens was a few ounces less and thought it would be optimized for the digital sensor with specific coatings, internal repression of reflection, and position of the rear element.  However, he had no concrete info in that regard and suggested I'd wait for the announcement and for the reviews that would come out at that time. 
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 09, 2012, 07:47:46 pm
The DA lens is 30g lighter, I hadn't noticed that so there is less of something and it's not the lens shade. In reading posts about the D800, it's clear that only the best glass can utilize the full resolution of the camera.  One advantage the 645D has is that it's less demanding of the lenses as a consequence of its larger sensor.  For example, my 120mm A and FA exceed the resolution of the sensor and the A version can be had for $500.
A few  other FA lenses are superb on the 645D and many other lenses including zooms are quite good.  The D800 may be "only" $3000, but by the time suitable lenses are acquired there would be little savings if any over a 645D system (except for the troublesome 25mm). :D

Tom
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 09, 2012, 08:02:33 pm
The DA lens is 30g lighter, I hadn't noticed that so there is less of something and it's not the lens shade. In reading posts about the D800, it's clear that only the best glass can utilize the full resolution of the camera.  One advantage the 645D has is that it's less demanding of the lenses as a consequence of its larger sensor.  For example, my 120mm A and FA exceed the resolution of the sensor and the A version can be had for $500.

I am not sure that resolution in the center of the frame is close to being an issue with 36mp on FX.

On the other hand corner sharpness appears to become exponentially more challenging when you reach larger sensor sizes, especially if the lenses have to remain reasonably small, light and affordable.

The comparison between the excellent Leica S 120mm on the S2 (described by some as the best lens ever designed) and the Zeiss 100mm f2.0 on the D800 should speak for itself. The corners are better on the D800 in absolute terms although the Zeiss - expensive by 35mm standards - is 3 times cheaper.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: Lacunapratum on April 09, 2012, 09:44:52 pm
The cost of the 25mm is certainly way up there and a bone of contention for many.  It is also out of range for Pentax's customary philosophy of affordability paired with outstanding image quality and rigidity. 

However, when I look at the price from a business perspective I am wondering whether we are reasonable in our expectation.  All the other MFD manufacturers (Leica, Phase, Hasselblad, Rollei DFW) are charging on a price level similar to the "new" digital prices rather than Pentax' "old" MF film prices.  In fact, I find myself rather fortunate to have so much 1st class Pentax glass and equipment left from the "good old film" days. 

Moreover, IMHO Pentax exceeds some of the other manufacturers in terms of quality and longevity of their products.  I'd rather like to see them reduce their number of product lines and keep their philosophy of high quality and affordability.  I believe it's reasonable to blame Hasselblad, Phase, Leica, and Rollei/Schneider for their prices and it's rather unfortunate that Pentax is following that trend.  But I don't think they are the only ones to blame. 
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 09, 2012, 10:09:55 pm
...On the other hand corner sharpness appears to become exponentially more challenging when you reach larger sensor sizes, especially if the lenses have to remain reasonably small, light and affordable...


Bernard:

I'm not a fan of cropped sensors, but an advantage of the reduced format of the 645D is that we don't see the corners. 
As for size, the 645 lenses are comparable in size and weight to Canon's 35mm lenses.  I'm convinced that the D800 is a great step forward in cameras, but I'm not selling my 645D; I might get a D800 however.

Tom
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 09, 2012, 10:21:22 pm
I'm convinced that the D800 is a great step forward in cameras, but I'm not selling my 645D; I might get a D800 however.

Tom,

Why would you, the 645D is obviously an amazing performer.

As mentioned above, I am personally in favor of simplicity and rationalization. If your needs enable you to standardize on a single platform, that would be my choice. I am of the opinion that the complexity and cost resulting from the parallel use of multiple camera platforms end up overcoming the limited advantages you may gain in some corner applications.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 09, 2012, 10:22:57 pm


.......  All the other MFD manufacturers (Leica, Phase, Hasselblad, Rollei DFW) are charging on a price level similar to the "new" digital prices rather than Pentax' "old" MF film prices.  In fact, I find myself rather fortunate to have so much 1st class Pentax glass and equipment left from the "good old film" days....... 

 

Lacunapratum:

Like you, I am a long time Pentax user.  I came to the realization that the Pentax  we old-timers knew ceased to exist at the Hoya acquisition.  It's a different company; we just think we know it because of the name.

Tom
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 09, 2012, 10:43:57 pm
Tom,

Why would you, the 645D is obviously an amazing performer.

As mentioned above, I am personally in favor of simplicity and rationalization. If your needs enable you to standardize on a single platform, that would be my choice. I am of the opinion that the complexity and cost resulting from the parallel use of multiple camera platforms end up overcoming the limited advantages you may gain in some corner applications.

Cheers,
Bernard


Bernard:

Well, because the 25mm is 5k.

I  likely won’t, but the prospect of a D800 and the 14-24 or Zeiss 21mm at the cost of a 645 25mm is tempting.  I use a K-5 as well as the 645D, so using two systems is not new.  Admittedly, the interface of the two cameras is very similar and they even use the same battery – how convenient is that?   I expect that 645-sized sensors at a reasonable price are not too far in the future, so why invest in the 25mm DA, better to replace the K-5 with a D800 - perhaps ;).
 
Tom
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BJL on April 09, 2012, 10:50:39 pm
I expect that 645-sized sensors at a reasonable price are not too far in the future ...
Why do you expect that, beyond just hoping for it? I see no trends in prices or in IC fabrication technology or in sales volume and related economies of scale that point to a major downward price trend for sensors of roughly 54x42mm size.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 09, 2012, 11:39:33 pm
Why do you expect that, beyond just hoping for it? I see no trends in prices or in IC fabrication technology or in sales volume and related economies of scale that point to a major downward price trend for sensors of roughly 54x42mm size.

Well, although the actual sales figures are not known, it could be argued that the success of the 645D may have helped generate significantly more volume for sensor manufacturers. Dalsa must be pretty mad to have lost that deal to former Kodak.

This additional volume could put Pentax in a favorable position to negotiate more agressive pricing for the next generation of sensors.

Of course, we don't know if the next gen 645D would sell as well as the initial iteration, even if it is much better with a larger sensor, 60+ megapixels, live view,...

The reason being that a significant portion of the 645D sales are elder landscape shooters in Japan who are really not in a consumer-electronics-let-'s-buy-the-new-one-every-2-years kind of mentality... but anyway we do not care. It is enough for Pentax to build a business plan ambitious enough that they forecast sales figure high enough to get lower prices on sensors.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: Lacunapratum on April 10, 2012, 12:32:09 am
Agreed, unfortunately.  For me I am glad they gave these wonderful lenses a digital life and a superb body.  And I'll fall for the 25mm and their two wide zooms.  I am afraid that'll satisfy my needs for a while. 
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: DandA on April 10, 2012, 01:31:14 am
Just called Pentax USA and was transferred to their 645D expert, who seemed extremely guarded.  He had no information on shipping date, when I discussed with him that it was listed at B&H for May 15 delivery, a date that by now had been removed.  He pointed out that the DA lens was a few ounces less and thought it would be optimized for the digital sensor with specific coatings, internal repression of reflection, and position of the rear element.  However, he had no concrete info in that regard and suggested I'd wait for the announcement and for the reviews that would come out at that time.  

Besides the extended hood on the D FA 25mm, I suspect that additional coatings were probably applied to the new lens.  It's generally one of the first things manufactures add to exisiting lenses to improve their readiness for use on digital.  As for the reduced weight, it doesn't mean they eliminated anything.  It could simply be the change in fabrication of an internal part.  A smaller rear element as mentioned sounds plauseable, as this would also help with internal reflections.  Sounds like Pentax is trying to tweak the exisiting D FA 25mm to minimize certain problematic characteristics when that lens was used on the 645D and the newer DA 25mm is the by-product.

Dave (D&A)
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 10, 2012, 06:54:49 pm
Why do you expect that, beyond just hoping for it? I see no trends in prices or in IC fabrication technology or in sales volume and related economies of scale that point to a major downward price trend for sensors of roughly 54x42mm size.

I’m basing my expectation on past performance - risky for investments, less so for sensor development  ;D.  Who would have thought a few years ago that a 36 MP DSLR would be available for 3k?
What Bernard said; there’s always a market for affordable quality.
Title: Sensor prices at a given size seem to have flattened out
Post by: BJL on April 10, 2012, 09:08:46 pm
I’m basing my expectation on past performance - risky for investments, less so for sensor development  ;D.  Who would have thought a few years ago that a 36 MP DSLR would be available for 3k?
Your prediction and my reply were about cost at a given sensor size (full 645) and indeed sensor price depends far more on size than on pixel count. On that point, the "past performance" that you refer to shows prices rather flat for some years at a given sensor size, at least for 36x24mm (has been at $3000 since the original 5D), and for what used to be e largest medium format, 48x36mm. The even larger near full 645 format sensors have not been around long enough to show a clear trend, but so far there has been no evidence of a downward price trend there either.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 11, 2012, 10:46:24 am
Time will tell if 645 sensors become affordable.  In any event, I’m reluctant to invest in a reduced image circle lens.  It was a mistake for Pentax to abandon their FA series of 35mm lenses for the DA series.  Presumably they did this based on sensor costs 10 years ago.  Now that FF 35mm sensors are relatively inexpensive, Pentax finds itself limited by their lenses to an APS-C sensor.   
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BJL on April 11, 2012, 04:39:51 pm
It was a mistake for Pentax to abandon their FA series of 35mm lenses for the DA series.  Now that FF 35mm sensors are relatively inexpensive, ...
That depends on one's standards for "inexpensive". With minimum 35mm format DSLR prices at $3000, and no downward price trend after the original Canon 5D, the vast majority of customers for interchangeable lens cameras surely still find 35mm format DSLRs way too expensive, so that formats "APS-C" continue to dominate sales. I suspect that Pentax probably would add little to its overall sales volume and revenue by competing in 35mm format head-on against the industry giants, Canon and Nikon, and so has decided to carve its own high-end niche with 44x33mm format instead, in territory where those two giants show no sign of venturing, and where Pentax, instead of the giants, has the advantage of an established lens user base.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 11, 2012, 06:07:13 pm
The Sony 850 was(is?) certainly under $3000 and I would be surprised if Sony doesn't have a Nex 9 or something in the works using a FF sensor.  I suspect most serious buyers purchasing APS-C cameras expect they might upgrade to FF someday and buy lenses accordingly, if they have a choice.  Nikon had enough sense  to continue their FX lens line and produced few DX lenses well before they introduced a FX body.  When they did, they had a client base already invested in usable lenses.  I agree that it's too late for Pentax to compete with FF 35mm and the 645D is their niche; all the more reason not to introduce reduced image circle lenses.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: eronald on April 11, 2012, 06:44:10 pm
The next generation of brand C or N, with a standard lens, will cost less than a brand H lenscap does now, and deliver the same resolution.

Oh, and by the way, 1600 ISO allows one to use a few tungsten bulbs in lieu of a truck load of flash.

Edmund
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BJL on April 11, 2012, 07:57:20 pm
The Sony 850 was(is?) certainly under $3000 and I would be surprised if Sony doesn't have a Nex 9 or something in the works using a FF sensor.
The Sony A850 was a loss-leading failure, and was discontinued before its older sibling the A900 which Sony explained was because it mostly took sales from the A900, not from the competition. Anyway, the dominant 35mm format players are Canon and Nikon, so they are the ones with the economies of scale to push prices down, not Sony, and their pricing is the main measure of the market. And the latest Canon and Nikon models do not lower prices at all --- in fact, the Canon 5D Mk 3 is the most expensive in the 5D series.

Sony might offer a 35mm format mirrorless body, though that would require yet another line of lenses, because the current NEX lenses are clearly adapted to the smaller format (the focal lengths of the zooms in particular show this). But even if so, why would that lower prices for 35mm format to mainstream levels?
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 11, 2012, 08:41:33 pm
The Sony A850 was a loss-leading failure, and was discontinued before its older sibling the A900 which Sony explained was because it mostly took sales from the A900, not from the competition. Anyway, the dominant 35mm format players are Canon and Nikon, so they are the ones with the economies of scale to push prices down, not Sony, and their pricing is the main measure of the market. And the latest Canon and Nikon models do not lower prices at all --- in fact, the Canon 5D Mk 3 is the most expensive in the 5D series.

Sony might offer a 35mm format mirrorless body, though that would require yet another line of lenses, because the current NEX lenses are clearly adapted to the smaller format (the focal lengths of the zooms in particular show this). But even if so, why would that lower prices for 35mm format to mainstream levels?

I would expect Nikon to start playing in the cheaper FX body segment late next year, after they have filled the D800 demand.

My unsubstantiated guess is that the sensor is likely to be the one used by the D800 but in a D5100-D7000 type of lesser body around 2,000+ US$. It would probably be produced in Thailand.

This is the strategy they have been using for many years now: introduce a set of new technologies in a higher end body for which customers are willing to pay a price premium, democratize some of the core technologies (typically the sensor) 1+ year later.

From the onset, the price of the sensor in the upper model (the D800 this time around) takes into account the economies of scales that will result from many more units being sold further down the road thanks to the cheaper model to be released later. This helps them secure a very comfortable margin in the higher end model.

Fair for everyone, efficient since fewer sensors need to be designed and economically smart.

I never quite understood why Canon did not follow this model.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 11, 2012, 09:11:01 pm
The Sony A850 was a loss-leading failure, and was discontinued before its older sibling the A900 which Sony explained was because it mostly took sales from the A900, not from the competition. Anyway, the dominant 35mm format players are Canon and Nikon, so they are the ones with the economies of scale to push prices down, not Sony, and their pricing is the main measure of the market. And the latest Canon and Nikon models do not lower prices at all --- in fact, the Canon 5D Mk 3 is the most expensive in the 5D series.

Sony might offer a 35mm format mirrorless body, though that would require yet another line of lenses, because the current NEX lenses are clearly adapted to the smaller format (the focal lengths of the zooms in particular show this). But even if so, why would that lower prices for 35mm format to mainstream levels?

I am assuming the G lenses would fit. 
I think you and I should agree to disagree.  As a landscape photographer, I see the $8000 price of the D3X  vs. the $3000 price of the D800 and think it costs less to get more of what I want.   (I know there are other differences aside from MP).
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: Lacunapratum on April 11, 2012, 11:46:11 pm
I guess this forum is picking up on Pentax' lack of a convincing overall philosophy for their digital camera portfolio.  There is the Pentax Q born dead in the cradle because of a sensor too small for anybody who would consider an interchangable lens camera :(.  There is the Ricoh GXR, a brilliant concept, but who has enough space in the camera bag for multiple sensor modules  ????  There is the APS-C duo consisting of the surprise success K-5 and the incarnation of ugliness lovingly called K-01  ::).  Better than ist, I guess.  Both are capable cameras destined to trail behind the CaNikony competition (whatever that might be).  Part of it is the APS-C format that with its full-frame lenses ranks behind the full-frame competition in overall image quality.  Another part is the size of the mirrorless K-01 when compared to the Nixes (better: Nexusses or Nexi or even Nexuus) and m43s.  If successful at all, the K-01 would also brilliantly compete with the company's own GXR, slapping Pentax's mother Ricoh in the face  :-[.  And then there is the 645D, still-born for half a decade and pondering for another between full frame and 44x33  :-X. 

I left Minolta when they changed mounts from MC/MD to Maxxum because I felt I couldn't rely on the future of my lens system with a company that so readily abandons their loyal customers for any new technology.   :'(

I feel that Pentax needs to streamline their portfolio if they want to have a chance to survive.   Here is what I’d like them to do  ;). 

(i)   Keep the 645D and commit, either to a top-quality, reasonably priced full-frame system or to a very competitively priced 44x33 system that would compete with Canon’s and Nikon’s high end models.  The 44x33 version would entail upgrading to a next generation sensor and offering lenses at very competitive prices.   This system would also very well match with a mirrorless 44x33 body that would even better fit with the great 645 lenses.  Alternatively, a full-frame version would compete with Hasselblad and Phase and offer better integration, robust bodies, automation, and top lenses. 
(ii)   Have an APS-C system that competes with the best of the full-frame sensors in terms of quality.  Offer top lenses dedicated to APS-C.  This system would be more portable and elegant than the full-frame cameras and would nicely match with a parallel generation of mirrorless cameras.   Better wideangles would be part of the equation.  The K-01 is a great concept, but can’t the body be more compact and elegant?   ???
(iii)   Shelve everything else (Q, GXR, new 4/3).   Drop full-frame or totally commit.  At this point, I feel all lenses should be converted to DA, the DA line should be expanded, and quality further improved. 

Asahi Pentax of the 80ies with their Spotmatic, the 67, and later the 645 followed that philosophy.   This offering would set Pentax apart from the competition and turn them into a genuine alternative.  Unfortunately (or fortunately) I am not in a position to tell Pentax what to do and I realize it’s hard for complex corporate infrastructures to see the light of day  :).
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: eronald on April 12, 2012, 03:25:26 am
I would expect Nikon to start playing in the cheaper FX body segment late next year, after they have filled the D800 demand.

I never quite understood why Canon did not follow this model.

Cheers,
Bernard


Canon are following this model, just slower: 1Ds 5D etc.
For several years only Canon could make FF sensors, so they charged a premium.
The game has changed, now that Sony has turned FF SLR sensors into commodity items. Now everybody will have them, and prices will spiral down. In the end a mirrorless camera is just a box with a sensor, a lens mount, and a socket for an iphone :)


Edmund
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 12, 2012, 07:15:32 am
Canon are following this model, just slower: 1Ds 5D etc.

What that the same sensor? I was under the impression that they were different.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 12, 2012, 11:02:15 am
(i)   Keep the 645D and commit, either to a top-quality, reasonably priced full-frame system or to a very competitively priced 44x33 system that would compete with Canon’s and Nikon’s high end models.  The 44x33 version would entail upgrading to a next generation sensor and offering lenses at very competitive prices.   This system would also very well match with a mirrorless 44x33 body that would even better fit with the great 645 lenses.  Alternatively, a full-frame version would compete with Hasselblad and Phase and offer better integration, robust bodies, automation, and top lenses. 

The idea of both a 44x33 and full 645 system is appealing.  Same lens line (except the 25mm), just a difference in body costs and competing with both high end 35mm and MF. 

Quote
(ii)   Have an APS-C system that competes with the best of the full-frame sensors in terms of quality.  Offer top lenses dedicated to APS-C.  This system would be more portable and elegant than the full-frame cameras and would nicely match with a parallel generation of mirrorless cameras.   Better wideangles would be part of the equation.   

Most Pentax lenses are DA and I think you underestimate the K-5; it is really a very good sensor in a terrific body.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BJL on April 12, 2012, 08:53:48 pm
I think you and I should agree to disagree.  As a landscape photographer, I see the $8000 price of the D3X  vs. the $3000 price of the D800 and think it costs less to get more of what I want.
No need to agre to disagree on simple numerical facts like steady $3000 price of entry to 36x24mm format for about seven years now! I have no disagreement that prices have come down from $8000 to about $3000, but that happened when the 36x24mm sensors were put in bodies at less than the absolute top of the line professional grade: from 1Ds to 5D, and from D1x, D2x etc to D700, and that started about seven years ago.  In fact, the very first 36x24 format DSLR, the Kodak 14N, was also far less than $8000, due to its lower level body.

My point is that since that change to putting 36x24mm sensors into bodies at less than absolute top of the line professional grade, there has been no further downward price movement, and so there is no evidence of a downward trend in sensor prices for some years now. All that has happened with the D800 compared to the equally priced D700 is putting a higher resolution sensor in that level of body, and to repeat, it is sensor size, not pixel count, that mainly dictates price. Consider the new Nokia phone with a 40MP sensor as an extreme example!
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 12, 2012, 10:00:50 pm
Hi,

I essentially agree with Bill, although I'd suggest that we may have some downward tendency on full frame DSLR prices.

The way I see it, it is as much a question of lenses. With Nikon there are some very good lenses from both Nikon themselves and Zeiss at reasonable price. You can buy a Nikon D800E and a very good Zeiss lens or the excellent 24-24/2.8 lens for below 5k USD.

From what I have seen in Miles Hecker's test shots, the Pentax 645D may have different CGA (Color Grid Array) characteristics from the Nikon so image may not mix that well.

Lloyd Chambers is doing a lot of testing of different system and I have the impression that he is quite careful in the testing he does. He did recently compare the Leica S2 with it's 120 macro lens with the Nikon D800 (not D800E) with the Zeiss 100/2 Macro Planar and I would say that Nikon came out on top, especially at the corners. So the Nikon D800 certainly seems to be a competent tool.

Best regards
Erik

The Sony A850 was a loss-leading failure, and was discontinued before its older sibling the A900 which Sony explained was because it mostly took sales from the A900, not from the competition. Anyway, the dominant 35mm format players are Canon and Nikon, so they are the ones with the economies of scale to push prices down, not Sony, and their pricing is the main measure of the market. And the latest Canon and Nikon models do not lower prices at all --- in fact, the Canon 5D Mk 3 is the most expensive in the 5D series.

Sony might offer a 35mm format mirrorless body, though that would require yet another line of lenses, because the current NEX lenses are clearly adapted to the smaller format (the focal lengths of the zooms in particular show this). But even if so, why would that lower prices for 35mm format to mainstream levels?
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 12, 2012, 10:26:49 pm
........there has been no further downward price movement, and so there is no evidence of a downward trend in sensor prices for some years now. ....

Well, assuming we are both fortunate to be posting here in, say, five years, I suggest we evaluate our different opinions then.  The improvement in 35mm sized sensors could in fact be a consequence of the fact that 35mm is the most common format and the lenses are limited to that size.  The introduction of the 645D, at relatively low cost considering the limited market, may indicate that larger sensors are not prohibitive in cost; they simply need a larger market - achievable with a lower price.  Although I have no sales numbers for the 645D, I think it is apparent it has been a great success, despite its convoluted, awkward and delayed journey to the marketplace. The 645D has certainly forced downward price movement in the MF market and perhaps even 35mm (I think we're all surprised at the D800 price.)
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: DandA on April 12, 2012, 11:12:14 pm
The idea of both a 44x33 and full 645 system is appealing.  Same lens line (except the 25mm), just a difference in body costs and competing with both high end 35mm and MF. 

Yes, this senario is quite appealing but whether Pentax wants to support two different lines of medium format bodies, is hard to know.  Maybe, maybe not.  As simple as it seems, I believe its not as economically easy as it seems. They could even keep the present 40MP 645D and introduce a higher MP body, presumably with a larger sized sensor...although that I believe would require additonal capital to retool more of the camera as opposed to keeping the present sesor size and simply make two different resolution/bodies available.

I'm all for your initial suggestion Tom.  Even the 25mm with it's two varients would be available for the current cropped sensor 645D and a full frame one.

Dave (DandA)
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 13, 2012, 12:04:18 am
Hi,

I'm not at all surprised at the D800 price. Nikon essentially upgraded the D700 body with a Sony 36MP sensor. The Sony sensor is same size as the 24 MP sensor used in the Sony Alpha 900. What I think is a surprise is that Canon set the D5III at a higher price point than Nikon did with D800.

I'd assume that prices are going down. I'd also assume that most development is done on smaller sensor and is moving upscale than the other way around.

More pixels need more processing power, and processing power still grow exponentially with time, it seems.

Best regards
Erik

The 645D has certainly forced downward price movement in the MF market and perhaps even 35mm (I think we're all surprised at the D800 price.)
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 13, 2012, 10:52:31 am


I'm not at all surprised at the D800 price. Nikon essentially upgraded the D700 body with a Sony 36MP sensor. ......

Interesting Erik, that is exactly the reason I would expect the price to be higher.  It's as if Pentax replaced the 40 MP 645D sensor with a 120 MP and didn't change the price.  ???

Tom
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: Lacunapratum on April 13, 2012, 01:26:30 pm
Tom,

I agree - two 645 lines may be attractive, especially if one of them was mirrorless. 

In terms of the K-5 I don't dispute that it's a great camera, but in the market it falls short when compared to Canon's or Nikon's offerings because both their more versatile system.  What I am saying is that Pentax isn't dedicating their resources into a few top lines but rather diverting their investment on many levels and thus risk falling short on all (except the 645). 
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BJL on April 13, 2012, 02:25:47 pm
Well, assuming we are both fortunate to be posting here in, say, five years, I suggest we evaluate our different opinions then.
OK! Five years seems a good time frame for you, Bernard, Erik, and I to reassess our predictions.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 13, 2012, 02:29:12 pm
Tom,

I agree - two 645 lines may be attractive, especially if one of them was mirrorless. 

In terms of the K-5 I don't dispute that it's a great camera, but in the market it falls short when compared to Canon's or Nikon's offerings because both their more versatile system.  What I am saying is that Pentax isn't dedicating their resources into a few top lines but rather diverting their investment on many levels and thus risk falling short on all (except the 645). 

The K5 and 645D are in fact a very complementary pair of cameras. Need resolution- 645D; need hand holdable, high ISO, compact – K-5.  As nice as the top C&N systems are, they’re not much smaller than the 645D.  The K-5 with the 40mm is small enough to fit in my jacket pocket, can’t do that with a D3x or even a 5D.  As much as I would like to see a FF Pentax, it seems that developing a good 645D and APS-C system is a good strategy for Pentax; no direct competition with the big players.

I agree with you on the Q and K 01; I'm not sure who the market is for those cameras, although the 01 would be more appealing with a finder of some sort..


Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 13, 2012, 02:30:43 pm
OK! Five years seems a good time frame for you, Bernard, Erik, and I to reassess our predictions.

OK, Deal.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 14, 2012, 07:33:40 am
Well, assuming we are both fortunate to be posting here in, say, five years, I suggest we evaluate our different opinions then.  The improvement in 35mm sized sensors could in fact be a consequence of the fact that 35mm is the most common format and the lenses are limited to that size.  The introduction of the 645D, at relatively low cost considering the limited market, may indicate that larger sensors are not prohibitive in cost; they simply need a larger market - achievable with a lower price.  Although I have no sales numbers for the 645D, I think it is apparent it has been a great success, despite its convoluted, awkward and delayed journey to the marketplace. The 645D has certainly forced downward price movement in the MF market and perhaps even 35mm (I think we're all surprised at the D800 price.)

Ok, see U in 5 years! :-)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 15, 2012, 11:29:35 am
Ok, see U in 5 years! :-)

Cheers,
Bernard

Good, although it may take less time than that.  Pentax's next version of the 645D, if it appears, may be sooner than that.  Of course we may all be using iPhones by then.   ;D

Tom
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BJL on April 15, 2012, 01:43:28 pm
Good, although it may take less time than that.  Pentax's next version of the 645D, if it appears, may be sooner than that.
Should we have a betting pool on its price and sensor size?

I will go for the same 44x33mm format and a price about the same or modestly lower ...  with an outside chance of a bigger sensor in a body more expensive than the current 645D but less expensive that any competitors with that same sensor size.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: Radu Arama on April 16, 2012, 06:49:45 am
IMHO it makes no sense for Pentax to go now for a larger sensor in size as long as they have too many gaps in the system to compete in the highest of ends. But then again a two tier camera system in the long term (44x33 mm and close to 645 film) makes perfect sense. So, I predict a new state of the art successor of the 645D to appear within an year with the following characteristics:

- New sensor, the same 44x33 mm in size sensor in a CMOS incarnation, highly optimized for low ISO image quality and highest DR on the market, 50 to 56 MP, 100-6400 ISO native range extend able to 50-12800, true 16 bit RAW, capable of LiveView and video;
- New AF and metering systems;
- New processing board, much faster image processing, dual SDXC cards with at least UHS-1 speed;
- Exactly the same body (maybe a larger LCD on the back);
- They could give up the PEF native format and use only the Adobe's DNG;
- Not more than 15-20% more expensive in Euro and USD MSRP, probably about 10% more expensive in Yen (I think that they won't pass above the psychological 1M Yen barrier).

Considering that between now and end of 2013 in theory Pentax should put 5 new digitally optimized lenses on the market I foresee a second larger sensor camera emerging in 2014 based on the "645D2" but with a 70-90 MP sensor of equal pixel pitch but (obviously) larger area.

Best regards,
Radu
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: eronald on April 16, 2012, 08:09:20 am
Deleted
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: BJL on April 16, 2012, 09:44:46 am
... So, I predict a new state of the art successor of the 645D to appear within an year with the following characteristics:

- New sensor, the same 44x33 mm in size sensor in a CMOS incarnation ...
The biggest mystery to me is if and when good CMOS sensors (say with on-sensor ADC as used by Sony, Nikon and in some Panasonic sensors) will become available for formats larger than 36x24mm. Maybe if Pentax develops a somewhat higher volume, lower priced sector of the DMF market than other brands have achieved, this can offer the economies of scale needed to get a sensor maker to produce such a product.

I am not holding my breath though.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 16, 2012, 11:45:05 am
Should we have a betting pool on its price and sensor size?

I will go for the same 44x33mm format and a price about the same or modestly lower ...  with an outside chance of a bigger sensor in a body more expensive than the current 645D but less expensive that any competitors with that same sensor size.

I don’t have any extra money for betting – I spent it on camera gear  ;D
Increasing the MP count in the 44x33mm sensor is going to stress the old film lenses, most of which are very good at the current pixel density.  My preference would be a larger sensor, which for me also removes the need for a 25mm; 35mm is as wide as I need in the 645 format.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: Radu Arama on April 16, 2012, 03:25:07 pm
The biggest mystery to me is if and when good CMOS sensors (say with on-sensor ADC as used by Sony, Nikon and in some Panasonic sensors) will become available for formats larger than 36x24mm. Maybe if Pentax develops a somewhat higher volume, lower priced sector of the DMF market than other brands have achieved, this can offer the economies of scale needed to get a sensor maker to produce such a product.

I am not holding my breath though.

The way I see it Pentax already developed "a somewhat higher volume, lower priced sector of the DMF market than other brands have achieved" with the 645D and when production will halt the total will most likely pass 15K or even 20K units. That is without Pentax being a complete system by any means. I suspect that an updated camera launched in let's say 2013 could aim for at least the same numbers if not (a lot) more. I know it costs millions to develop such a sensor and most likely thousand(s) to make it but it is one thing o divide that to let's say 5K sensors and another thing to 20K.

I don't know about holding one's breath or not  :) but what I know for sure is that Ricoh will rain down money over Pentax (monsoon style) the deluge started some time ago and the first results will appear soon. In all honesty I wouldn't be surprised if they order (or even design themselves and hire a manufacturer) a modern CMOS sensor if they feel like there are benefits in long time.

Best regards,
Radu

P.S. Don't forget that Pentax could wipe out one of their biggest drawback in the industry with one move if they will come out with a CMOS global shutter sensor. Then all their less expensive, less bulky lenses will get an instant update to "leaf shutter flash sync" greatness. That reason alone is worth the money put in the project IMO. Plus Live View, CDAF, movie mode, improved battery life as equally hefty bonuses for other people.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: Lacunapratum on April 16, 2012, 10:22:27 pm
I'd love to see a 645 mirrorless full-frame in addition to continuation of the 44x33 645D perhaps at higher resolution. 
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 17, 2012, 07:42:03 am
The way I see it Pentax already developed "a somewhat higher volume, lower priced sector of the DMF market than other brands have achieved" with the 645D and when production will halt the total will most likely pass 15K or even 20K units. That is without Pentax being a complete system by any means. I suspect that an updated camera launched in let's say 2013 could aim for at least the same numbers if not (a lot) more. I know it costs millions to develop such a sensor and most likely thousand(s) to make it but it is one thing o divide that to let's say 5K sensors and another thing to 20K.

The initial sales of the 645D were mostly to customers with an existing supply of 645 lenses or those who had access on the used market.  Unless the 645DII is a compelling improvement over the original e.g., full or nearly full frame, many of those customers will be lost to new sales, and attracting new users without concurrent improvement in lens availability (at least in North America) doesn’t seem likely.

Quote
I don't know about holding one's breath or not  :) but what I know for sure is that Ricoh will rain down money over Pentax (monsoon style) the deluge started some time ago and the first results will appear soon. In all honesty I wouldn't be surprised if they order (or even design themselves and hire a manufacturer) a modern CMOS sensor if they feel like there are benefits in long time.

How do you know Ricoh is raining money?  What will be the results you refer to?  I hope you're correct.

Tom
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: Radu Arama on April 17, 2012, 09:04:05 am
Hi Tom!

The initial sales of the 645D were mostly to customers with an existing supply of 645 lenses or those who had access on the used market.  Unless the 645DII is a compelling improvement over the original e.g., full or nearly full frame, many of those customers will be lost to new sales, and attracting new users without concurrent improvement in lens availability (at least in North America) doesn’t seem likely.

I agree in part with both your analysis and your conclusion (in fact I fully agree if were are talking about North America' situation). I can only hope that this important region will get the same treatment as the rest of the world regarding FA 645 lens availability (in fact I think in Canada one has much better chances to order such lenses as new than in the U.S. and the problem lies with Pentax USA much more than with Japanese Pentax leadership).

Quote
How do you know Ricoh is raining money?  What will be the results you refer to?  I hope you're correct.

Tom

I know this both from public statements and private conversations. Pentax has run on "Hoya fumes" for the last couple of quarters but soon enough the new Ricoh strategy will start to unfold. This implies both a quantitative and a qualitative improvement in the Pentax camera range and the results of the technical improvements in K-mount range will trickle in the 645D range as well. The public signs were a series of interviews (e.g. the one gave by a Pentax UK manager) and most telling of all the very ambitious lens roadmaps that show a projected 20+ lenses to be made in the next 2 years for all three mounts (Q, K and 645). That means a lot of money and it is only logical that a similar investment will be also made in the camera body updates and refinements.

Radu
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on April 17, 2012, 11:22:38 am
Hi Tom!

I agree in part with both your analysis and your conclusion (in fact I fully agree if were are talking about North America' situation). I can only hope that this important region will get the same treatment as the rest of the world regarding FA 645 lens availability (in fact I think in Canada one has much better chances to order such lenses as new than in the U.S. and the problem lies with Pentax USA much more than with Japanese Pentax leadership).

I know this both from public statements and private conversations. Pentax has run on "Hoya fumes" for the last couple of quarters but soon enough the new Ricoh strategy will start to unfold. This implies both a quantitative and a qualitative improvement in the Pentax camera range and the results of the technical improvements in K-mount range will trickle in the 645D range as well. The public signs were a series of interviews (e.g. the one gave by a Pentax UK manager) and most telling of all the very ambitious lens roadmaps that show a projected 20+ lenses to be made in the next 2 years for all three mounts (Q, K and 645). That means a lot of money and it is only logical that a similar investment will be also made in the camera body updates and refinements.

Radu

Radu:
Very good news.  When I pre-ordered the 645D in 2010, it felt like a bit of a gamble; continued development is reassuring.  Having dealt with both Pentax Canada and Pentax USA, I agree with your comments and my preference for Pentax Canada extends beyond lens availability.
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: Radu Arama on May 06, 2012, 07:41:24 am
Radu:
Very good news.  When I pre-ordered the 645D in 2010, it felt like a bit of a gamble; continued development is reassuring.  Having dealt with both Pentax Canada and Pentax USA, I agree with your comments and my preference for Pentax Canada extends beyond lens availability.


Hi Tom!

If you need something like the new 90/2.8 portrait lens I heard it will become available worldwide at mid-year (June to July).

Best Regards,
Radu
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on May 06, 2012, 08:55:31 am
Thanks Radu.  I have no real need for the new lens, I don't take many portraits and am quite happy with the 67 90mm f/2.8 lens for my uses.  What I would really like to see is the new wide angle zoom or a 30mm f3.5 at a price less than the 25mm. :D

Tom

645d, Pentax 67 90mm @f/2.8

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5158/5854529556_1e2d5e4566_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/5854529556/)
_IGP2322 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/5854529556/) by tsjanik47 (http://www.flickr.com/people/21294128@N08/), on Flickr
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: Radu Arama on May 06, 2012, 09:34:36 am
That was my point Tom, I already knew that you own the 90 from the 67 system and I just wondered how "old school lens" will compare to state of the art digital 2012 one!  :) Too bad you're not more into portraiture I guess if you were and interested in the new 90 I would loved to hear your thoughts about this match up.

About the second part you are in luck as Pentax seems to agree with the community that the weakest link in the zoom chain is the 33-55 and will replace it first. Again it is quite interesting to see how the new designs (that seems to mirror pretty well the older focals) will compare with the 80's and 90's designs (33-55 being the most "modern").

BR,
Radu

P.S. I just love the ethereal feeling of your picture and I am glad you repost it in this message! :)

Thanks Radu.  I have no real need for the new lens, I don't take many portraits and am quite happy with the 67 90mm f/2.8 lens for my uses.  What I would really like to see is the new wide angle zoom or a 30mm f3.5 at a price less than the 25mm. :D

Tom

645d, Pentax 67 90mm @f/2.8

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5158/5854529556_1e2d5e4566_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/5854529556/)
_IGP2322 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/5854529556/) by tsjanik47 (http://www.flickr.com/people/21294128@N08/), on Flickr
Title: Re: 25mm 645D lens vs D800
Post by: tsjanik on May 06, 2012, 10:36:10 am
Thank you very Radu.  I knew I had posted that image somewhere before, but didn't realize you had already seen it.  I have been using the 67 300mm ED  quite a bit lately; a lovely lens for close ups. Some new beech leaves:

(http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/members/tsjanik/albums/645d/3250-igp7809-1-copy.jpg)