Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: KevinA on April 03, 2012, 11:44:53 am

Title: New 4k Sony
Post by: KevinA on April 03, 2012, 11:44:53 am
http://www.eoshd.com/content/7748/4k-ready-sony-fs700-officially-announced

I wonder now if Canon will drop the 300c price, about 60% ought to do it!

Kevin.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: billy on April 03, 2012, 12:02:56 pm
Looks pretty good. Now they just need some fast autofocus primes ( or can you do that with the A mount adaptor ? ) and to fix the 'highlight roll-off ' issue ( is this the same sensor as FS100 ? ). I am more than interested, mostly because of the form factor, the built in ND's, and the useable autofocus.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Bern Caughey on April 03, 2012, 01:33:54 pm
One beta tester stated the highlights handling is improved on the upcoming Sony, & it may be due to new scene files. He also speculated these scene files will be added to existing FS100(s).



Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 03, 2012, 04:07:38 pm
This is where I'm lost with this 4K Sony.

What will be the relation with the existing FS100 ? Will they provide a firmware to be able to connect to the 4K ?

In this case what would be the advantage to up-grade?
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: ziocan on April 03, 2012, 04:23:19 pm
It is a new sensor. Not the same of the fs100.
4k will be possible after a fw upgrade, but it will need an external recorder.
http://www.pro.sony.eu/biz/lang/en/eu/product/nxcamcorders/nex-fs700e/overview

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 03, 2012, 04:28:14 pm
I'm more and more confused.

The external recorder, is it just for the current FS100 then ?

Built-in ND filters !! Finally !!

Ahhh: 99 profile settings !! Very nice.

I guess if the sensor is new as a Super 35, it will be multi-aspect-ratio
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: michael on April 03, 2012, 04:35:29 pm
The FS100 won't be able to shoot 4K and will not take the new recorder 4K. The FS700 has a new sensor. It uses a similar body and design to the FS100 but is a new and considerably more advanced model.

Michael
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 03, 2012, 04:46:44 pm
Well, since the latest Sony dslrs generations, although almost every pro here is on Canon, I started to suspect that Sony was going the right way. They go fast and it seems that they understand the potential huge market, the socio-economical situation and the evolution of the business and mentalities more than the competition.

I think Sony's got it IMO. I wonder if Pana will also react so well.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Bern Caughey on April 03, 2012, 04:55:33 pm
My guess is Panasonic may be slow to react. Hope I'm wrong.

One spec that may be missed by the casual observer is this is a 8-bit camera, & only 4k RAW will be 12-bit.

Makes one wonder if a 4k F3 is on the way.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 03, 2012, 05:00:20 pm
My guess is Panasonic may be slow to react. Hope I'm wrong.

One spec that may be missed by the casual observer is this is a 8-bit camera, & only 4k RAW will be 12-bit.

Makes one wonder if a 4k F3 is on the way.

I didn't missed it. After the 8 bit bandings saga I'm now sort of obsessive with it.
Bern, very fine Hack you posted (the latest you posted some time ago in the hack section). It solved a lot of issues I had. Totally reliable on set. Zero crash. Thanks very much for the tip.

And yes, pana will probably be slower to react.  
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 03, 2012, 06:39:01 pm
I do not see banding in he Sony fs100.   Not anymore than the RED though I know that goes against the logic of the still camera world, video is different.

Right now, I'm grading some Sony images in Apple color and I can twist the curves like a snake and nothing bands, even on blue skies which usually go nuts.

IMO

BC, (Mr. Sony)
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: KevinA on April 04, 2012, 02:57:57 am
I did think from my ignorant point of view, 4k would be the way for me to go. More future proof, more quality for me to throw away in post. Now I'm not so sure, all that disc space getting gobbled up, the computing power etc. In reality I will not be shooting for cinema screens and still there is a lot broadcast that is not even HD.
 So quality HD looks right for me now. In fact the Canon 300C hits a lot of spots for me, weight size quality. But I always thought it was almost outdated when it arrived, what it has is great, also what is missing is glaringly obvious. It felt like a toe in the water to test the market, a range finding shot so to speak. Canon just fell short of the mark for no obvious technical reason, so £10k for a body I don't think will be around for very long looks a bit steep.
I would expect the 300C to either get a serious upgrade or fall in price to compete with the Sony, if Canon want people to buy into their system that ought to be sooner rather than later.

Kevin.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 04, 2012, 04:06:46 am
James,

Photons are weired particules indeed and I don't really know what are the parameters involved that produce banding. Maybe Graeme from Red could help us to understand if he sees this.
The fact is that not all 8 bits camera produce the same amount of banding.

I saw some FS100 footage with serious banding, other from the same model (but not the same camera) with no banding at all. (not talking here about the Vimeo convertions that always produce banding). There are no 2 5D2 that behave exactly similar with this.
Same with the GH2. Some users experienced stronger banding than others.

I had an issue with it on my unit. I was about to give-up and change camera brand when Bern posted a hack that was supposed to be good. I tried it as an ultimate chance and miraculously the banding issue disappeared. Now I have a "new" camera that relegate the 5D2 to stone age, and that with a couple of firmware tricking ?! (when other hacks didn't solve it). Try to understand why is like trying to understand the dark energy.
It would only show-up now in some very rare situations and the performances in low-light have been increased too. But I wouldn't be surprise if another user with a GH2 would have a totally different experience.

Some users have been exposed the sensor to sun during hours (on another problem) and it cured the camera issue forever...that's more psychadelic than Jimmy Hendrix playing on acid but truth.  I think we are in quantum physics here...

It seems to me that electronic is very temperamental and not always predictible and within a same model, there are indeed variations for better or for worse.

I wouldn't trust on 8 bits cameras the fact that one model doesn't have it. Maybe you buy a FS100 #2 back-up and you'd posterize. Maybe not.
Maybe the external climate plays a role, maybe even the magnetic field of a location, but those 8 bits cameras are very sensitive, too much IMO.

It will be nice to hear an engineer on that topic.

------

Kevin,

I agree with you about the 4K.

But the think is that, even if it's not necessary, if pros start to shoots 4K, clients will ask..."but X does it in 4K".

That's the problem IMO. We may not need 4K, but if it becomes a practise standart, need or not, you'll have pressure to shoot at this resolution.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 04, 2012, 05:44:21 am


Kevin,

I agree with you about the 4K.

But the think is that, even if it's not necessary, if pros start to shoots 4K, clients will ask..."but X does it in 4K".

That's the problem IMO. We may not need 4K, but if it becomes a practise standart, need or not, you'll have pressure to shoot at this resolution.

Unless some client demands 4k/5k capture and processing, I don't put much thought in it.

Sure, when I sell,  I like others have mentioned future proof footage, but really our job and careers rests on shooting imagery that doesn't have 20 year shelf life.

Our roll is to produce new imagery . . . that's where the money is.

The 2k to 4k thing right now is kind of funny, because I'll bet 90% of all Red footage taken out of Cinex, is probably in 2k, most of it probably in prorezz 422.

Digital is different than film.   16mm looks small and grainy, (usually( 35mm looks smooth and rich (usually) but digital can be about anything with export post work.

Act of valor is shot mostly with 5d2's and it's beautiful, though I've heard they spent two years in post.

What I worry about with the 4k thing from a post production standpoint is if client's demand 4k/5k edits but we still downsize to 2k for viewing, we are going to increase our workload and rendering times by more than double for no real reason.

This is above my pay grade, but the world is turning to streaming video that originates through the web and is projected on everything from ipads to 40" screens.

The new I pad has what a 3k across screen, so will we all start editing in 3k?   Do we need to.  Do we want to?

In regards to cameras, just like still cameras, each one has it's place.   I love the look of the RED's can now emulate that look with a Sony, but doesn't mean for safety and to impress on set the RED's won't be used, it just means I own them so I use what I own.

I think we all know that file sizes will increase because just like stills megapixels sell, but the difference between motion and stills is working a 40mpx still image on even a lowly G5 is not a chore, doing 4k editing on a older machine can be a nightmare, heck it can be a nightmare on a newer machine.

As far as banding, well, every camera can band, every camera can moire.  I see less moire in the RED's than the Sony, but a little softer image also.

Once again I'm not knocking RED, just sating what I've seen.

IMO

BC




Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 04, 2012, 06:10:35 am

...What I worry about with the 4k thing from a post production standpoint is if client's demand 4k/5k edits but we still downsize to 2k for viewing, we are going to increase our workload and rendering times by more than double for no real reason...


Exactly. That's the dilema.

In Edius, wich handles the CPU very well, I had yesterday a 4K project and it slows like hell in real time so I had no other option than transcode to HQX to edit at ease. But it's a transcoding time consuming. And then re-link etc etc...and all that to go to DVD or to H.264 ? It makes no sense.

In the same idea, I wonder those 8 bit vs 10 bit mystic for grading. I always edited so far in 10 bits just not to loose more infos and suposedly the degradation is way worse when it comes to grading...well, I can't see the magical benefits of boosting to 10 bits but yes the file size is much bigger. I did testings and can't see anything different in 99% of the situations.

One day I did blind tests of P2 files, uncompressed QT, HQX, DNxHD, XDcam and a part from slightly differences in gamma, in terms of quality I was unable to detect wich was wich. And the differences in file size were huge.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: stewarthemley on April 04, 2012, 09:52:49 am
"...One day I did blind tests of P2 files, uncompressed QT, HQX, DNxHD, XDcam and a part from slightly differences in gamma, in terms of quality I was unable to detect wich was wich. And the differences in file size were huge..."

Fred, that's really interesting. I'm too busy right now to do my own tests but a little while ago I compared a few vid cams in a studio and the real, outside world and concluded that it's what you shoot, how you shoot it and then how you post it that matters most. Not 100%, but mostly.

Having been through the MFD vs DSLR stills hoops, and hopefully learnt from it, I bought a Canon 305XF to get max DOF and will soon get a  second camera, equally sensibly priced, for getting minimum DOF. I could have bought at a higher price range, much higher according to my bank manager (now surely I should have trusted his judgement...) but I thought, why? I don't shoot for cinema, the 305 is good for broadcast, why spend more? I'll test again and apply the same criteria: I'll get the cheapest cam that let's me shoot what I want, how I want and can stand up in post. Even if it turns out to be a used FS100. (I know I'll need to check I can match the shots for colour, etc.)
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Tim Jones on April 04, 2012, 12:59:33 pm
 Well, after worrying  about what camera to get non stop since Nov. 4th. I bought a C300.  My heart ached for a Red One, not so much for a Scarlet. But my head won out. For me. i know all of my work will be displayed on the web, or in store display not in a cinema.
 I got it last week on Thursday and shot a youtube smartphone ad for a national company the next day. No problems. Everything worked just as it should have.  When the job was done, i handed one of two copies of my CF card to the client at the agency, and they went on their way with it  to hand over to the After effects boys. I mentioned Red to them and they looked at me like i was mad.
 Yeah, i think this camera costs too much and does too little. But, it is a rock solid performer, easy to use and very well thought out. And, the footage looks good. Solid, maybe not as pretty as graded red, but solid. And, the whole system is looking good.
All my lenses fit right on it, the new canon cine lenses will be out this summer in EF mount . They will be widely available to rent.
the Ziess CP2's are very nice and have a EF mount. I can live with out autofocus, but canon has something coming for a smartphone or ipad that will focus the camera. Also, the i.s. function is brilliant!
I'm sure the sonys are great cameras, and the footage i have seen from them is amazing. But, the guy at my local camera store tossed one in a box to me on a Friday afternoon and told me to take it for the weekend.  I tried to shoot with it, but it was just too strange of a form for me. It looked like it was somehow three seperate parts, with a lens sticking out . I couldn't get past it.
  Now it's time to get on with my life and stop obsessing about cameras and get to shooting. I'll be happy with the C300 for a few years .
I'm still dreaming of a Red One to someday just to shoot beautiful film like footage though.
Thanks,
Tim
www.tjphoto.net

 
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: KevinA on April 04, 2012, 01:33:26 pm
Tim,
Does the 300C have image stabilisation or is it lens that has it and any idea how a iPad will add auto focus?

Kevin.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 04, 2012, 02:06:01 pm
The C300 is almost an exact modern copy in terms of design as the 35mm film Konvas 2, wich IMO is one of the best design-ergonomics ever acheived for a portable cine camera.
I'm not surprised you liked the handling.

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Tim Jones on April 04, 2012, 02:49:48 pm
Kevin

the c300 will work with a new wireless transmitter that's coming with the 1Dx .
here's the dope from canon :

What are some of the capabilities when the WFT-E6 is combined with the EOS C300?
Outstanding remote control possibilities, using nearly any web-enabled "smart-phone" or digital pad. Some of the camera controls which are possible include:

    Adjust focus, forward or backward (EF lenses on EOS C300)
    Adjust iris, shutter speed/angle, gain/ISO, White Balance
    Change image parameters
    View status display of camera
    Input metadata

The i.s. works on canon lenses that have i.s. built in.

I'm confident that canon is going to do cool things with the whole Cinema EOS system . They are just getting started. 
Thanks,
Tim
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: KevinA on April 04, 2012, 02:59:25 pm
Kevin

the c300 will work with a new wireless transmitter that's coming with the 1Dx .
here's the dope from canon :

What are some of the capabilities when the WFT-E6 is combined with the EOS C300?
Outstanding remote control possibilities, using nearly any web-enabled "smart-phone" or digital pad. Some of the camera controls which are possible include:

    Adjust focus, forward or backward (EF lenses on EOS C300)
    Adjust iris, shutter speed/angle, gain/ISO, White Balance
    Change image parameters
    View status display of camera
    Input metadata

The i.s. works on canon lenses that have i.s. built in.

I'm confident that canon is going to do cool things with the whole Cinema EOS system . They are just getting started. 
Thanks,
Tim


Thanks Tim.
That sounds interesting and useful, not exactly auto focus but most likely something a bit better for me, manual focus by remote.
IS on the lens, even more strange then the new 24-70 did not have IS.
Yes I really like the look of the 300c and I've liked the demos I have seen of it.

Kevin.

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 04, 2012, 03:30:05 pm
When the c300 was released I placed an order that second.  Liked the form factor (reminds me of a 16mm beaulieu) and thought how great Canon will have high iso and autofocus.

oops.  No autofocus.

You know Autofocus is not needed on a lot of what we do, but I've noticed a lot of advertising, episodic tv (which drives a lot of our current styles) is into a hand held type of look that is not jerky mtv, but not always smooth tracking either.

Maybe that's one of the reasons I've spent so much time on the Sony, because you can get that look without having a lot of people in the way pulling focus, checking focus, preview each cut, etc.

I have to admit I don't understand why Canon didn't go the autofocus addition.  I know "serious" film makers and dp's don't like autofocus, but a lot of film makers and dps that come from the film area are learning that their world is changing as fast as the still world did.

But I have to admit I love the look of the c300.  I do think it's expensive for what it is and as fast as cameras change I'm less worried about future proof file size as I am future proof electronic cameras.

Now in regards to the Sony 4k.  I'm interested, but want to test it first and most importantly how will Sony make the file so it goes into standard editorial suites and color grading software.

We'll see.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 05, 2012, 09:17:43 am
I would be very surprised if the Sony is out of standart. But we've seen so many weired things.

Media Composer AMA arquitecture is particularly good on that aspect because it's very easy for them to add any new format at any time from any manufacturer.

I'm looking closely to the liughtworks pro release too. It should be there very soon, before summer for sure.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Bern Caughey on April 05, 2012, 11:24:16 am
"First Hands-On Review of the SONY FS700"

http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/first-hands-on-review-of-the-sony-fs700/
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 05, 2012, 12:27:50 pm
https://vimeo.com/39839187
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 05, 2012, 01:00:08 pm
What's reassuring is that it seems they listened to the filmakers and not, as often, a marketing delirium packed with protective politics towards the pro line.

It will put Sony in a dominant position if others are really insisting in minimalist upgrades or insane prices for the good stuff we've seen.

Red is starting to have serious competitors.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 05, 2012, 01:54:06 pm
https://vimeo.com/39839187

This is only the second time I've seen a company come out with a lower model that offers more than the expensive alternative (F3).  (Canon did this with the 5d2).

In talking to people today, in the U.S.  Sony is kind of a secret.  Most use RED or Allexa Some use Panasonic, but nobody talks about the fs100 and even my camera rep knows nothings about the new Sony fs700.

Go figure.

The thing is IMO when we're talking about convergence, the FS100/700 would be the perfect camera to move still photographers over to the Sony brand.

Let's face it, having one set of lenses in A mount that will autofocus, a few E-mounts, two Sony still cameras, a fs100 and a fs700 and you'd be good to go in about any production.

The fact the video cameras smoothly and smartly autofocus and have a simple sound mixing system is not to be underestimated. 

Sure, a lot of our projects are many multiple crew and we can budget in focus and sound, but as this business tightens up, the ability to confidently hit focus and sound without extra crew is not something to be taken lightly.

Also sometimes you want to go out by yourself to shoot insets, where all you want is camera and a small support.   This is the camera made for that.

I'm stoked, though want to see the results.  The only issue I have with it is the avchd (or whatever it's called) as it does not play natively on a mac for quick review.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 05, 2012, 02:43:41 pm
They play perfectly fine on PCs  (6th smiley from the right)
So as the QT files (6th smiley from the left)

Avchd is problematic to review, it's crap for editing.
Avid resisted a lot before finally accepting the heresy and enabled to import those files natively.

But Sony is the silent tiger hidden behind the bush. When I saw their latest DSLRs generations, nobody was taking them seriously, but I observed that the specs where going on a very good direction.
They seem to understand and beleive more on the convergence stuff that never comes. They've been doing this silently those latest years, listening a lot to their clients. When the tiger will jump, it'll be too late. It seems that it showed its claws.

We are a generation, for cultural and economical reasons, IMO, that want it all. We want a well designed camera, solid built but not big, powerfull, fast, reliable, versatile, still capable, we want built NDs, high-speed, versatile mount, good sound  etc... and cheap. The manufacturer that brings that on the table will dominate the market. (and not only the low-end because something is sure, they cut budgets on the high-end too)

You hitted the point with: "the ability to confidently hit focus and sound without extra crew is not something to be taken lightly"

We're the first generation multitask-crafts. Technology has to colaborate to help us acheiving this. To do the work of 3 people, as good as 3 people, we need the tech, we depend much more on it.

Before it was a specialist world. I know that many high-end specialists and long time motion pros are watching all this with a clear disdain but the world has changed and the rules too.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 05, 2012, 03:09:11 pm
Im not sure the sony is really a silent tiger.. I mean in the BBC everything is sony - big cameras, and the VJs using EX1s or Z1s (or whatever they are called)

---

F3 vs FS100

F3 has instant playback; XDCam, SDi out to 'the village' or the 'Sat truck' or the 'Off-board recorder' - the BBC 'demands' 50MBs codec so that requiires an ofboard recorder for the EX or F3 (or FS100)
IMO the F3 is 'worth it' if you are not setting your own rules but tied up in a traditional production hourse or fast turnaroud
Of course the 700 will have many of those things that the F3 offers too once a recorder is in place
The C300 is still the only 'BBC approved' of the bunch at 50mbs internal codec

---

Yep the FS is (was) little known somehow hyped out by the F3 and then C300

To me it met my 'personal spec'
No moire
cheap*
1080p
Onboard XLR
Cine sized sensor
Big HDMI
..with the bonus of AF and 60p

The 700 does that and more..

Best

SMM


*cheap isnt even driven by poverty! its 'keeping my powder dry for a future raw cam be that Scarlet, FS700 whatever





Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 05, 2012, 03:32:19 pm
I'm about the same as you and coincide in your desires.

Yes, Sony has been on broadcast forever. I meant a silent tiger in the niche we are. They bought Minolta, nobody cared really and almost no pro are using them but Minolta team had extremely good engineers and they been learning and getting better with each release. They are playing the convergence game or at least cameras that are superbly specs for people who have not a major broadcast mediums. They have long experience in video. If the last decade was Canon, this one could be Sony.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 05, 2012, 04:29:44 pm
What I don't like with the Sony and Panasonic lenses is that they frankly feel toyish. I know...if you AF and it works you hardly touch the lens, but when you touch it it's horrible.

Imagine your wife with a plastic underwear. I prefer Chantal Thomass lingery to be honest. Same with lenses.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: ziocan on April 06, 2012, 05:48:24 am

The thing is IMO when we're talking about convergence, the FS100/700 would be the perfect camera to move still photographers over to the Sony brand.

Let's face it, having one set of lenses in A mount that will autofocus, a few E-mounts, two Sony still cameras, a fs100 and a fs700 and you'd be good to go in about any production.


that is what I have been doing and saying for the past few years.

with a bunch of alpha and nex lenses, a couple of a900, a nex7, an fs100 and maybe a soon to be added fs700. i'm pretty much all set.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: ziocan on April 06, 2012, 05:56:32 am
Sony has not been much of a silent tiger has someone pointe out.
the Sony f35 has been used for so many hollywood features films, even in 3d. Avatar was shot with the f35. one "pirate of Caribbean as well.
The predecessor of the f35 was largely used as well.

And the F65 is the new state of the art in motion picture.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Bern Caughey on April 06, 2012, 11:23:52 am
The only issue I have with it is the avchd (or whatever it's called) as it does not play natively on a mac for quick review.

While not a professional solution, I use Movist, or VLC, for quick review of AVCHD footage on Macs.

And HD Quick Look for previewing thumbnails.

http://mac.softpedia.com/progClean/Movist-Clean-30183.html

http://www.shedworx.com/hdquicklook
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Bern Caughey on April 06, 2012, 12:38:05 pm
the BBC 'demands' 50MBs codec so that requiires an ofboard recorder for the EX or F3 (or FS100)

Sam,

Couldn't find the info on the net so I wonder if the FS100 is BBC, & EBU, approved for HD when used with a recorder? Seems it should be, but I couldn't find the White Papers.

Best,
Bern
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 06, 2012, 12:51:04 pm
Sam,

Couldn't find the info on the net so I wonder if the FS100 is BBC, & EBU, approved for HD when used with a recorder? Seems it should be, but I couldn't find the White Papers.

Best,
Bern

I cant find it either - I think the man who tests picks cameras driven by hype or something - he's done the C300 already, revelled in destroying the 5d2 etc

Id just say I was shooting on an F3 !

S
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 06, 2012, 01:25:28 pm
I cant find it either - I think the man who tests picks cameras driven by hype or something - he's done the C300 already, revelled in destroying the 5d2 etc

Id just say I was shooting on an F3 !

S

It's funny, years ago, (name unmentioned) shot a documentary with a Canon XL1.   It got big play on ABC before cable was so dominate.

Anyway, it got such a great review, the ABC execs wanted to see the filmakers production company which turned out to be a mac, an xl1 and a basement.

They were shocked and invited him into their offices with the promise that he never tell anyone how he did this as the network had just spend many millions revamping their vieo production workflow from cameras to editing.

Anyway, what is broadcast quality?    Whatever is broadcast.

High Def is a moving object, bps is questionable, the whole idea is for it to look good and fit into a budget.  I think people would be shcoked and surprised at the number of sports and live events that are shot with old standard def eng's and broadcast in faux high def, though remember, any high def coming through the cable, or satallite depends on bandwith, carrier, network volume.

Imo


BC
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 06, 2012, 01:51:54 pm
Canon has had so much opportunity to get it right, though so many times they have hobbled their equipment they are the boy that cried wolf.

I hope they make a great product, really do, but I always have a lingering thought that once they make a super duper camera it will be missing something, so we have to buy the next super duper camera.

I could run a list of Canon misses and they would go on for two pages.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 06, 2012, 02:53:51 pm

High Def is a moving object, bps is questionable, the whole idea is for it to look good and fit into a budget.  I think people would be shcoked and surprised at the number of sports and live events that are shot with old standard def eng's and broadcast in faux high def, though remember, any high def coming through the cable, or satallite depends on bandwith, carrier, network volume.


Its all pony - but in the UK there is a big 'ticket' in shooting BBC approved format

Nothing to do with the image - all about box ticking people behind desks

S
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 06, 2012, 03:03:35 pm
Sony taking over the world of the still-mo people?

On paper they have a lot - but the stills camera - are they on the radar - do they have a fullframe 16-24mp still camera .. I dont even know
Does it shoot video ? at 25fps with manual control ? at 5d3/d800 quality

And the lenses - on paper they are getting a range together 70-200 2.8 is a staple, fast fifty, 20 2.8 - really thats all I use for stills
I have a feeling the MF feel (for video) is horrible - but maybe AF with video is the way forward - Im certainly a full time AFer for stills

The thing is the (still) cameras just are not on my radar, nor those lenses

Not to mention CaNikon - I know where to get it serviced, my mates all have CaNikon - so I can borrow in a crisis - most stills people are deep into CaNikon

Of course sony e-mount takes nikon, nikonG, contax, PL, whatever

Im pretty happy with a Sony vid camera and my nikon stills kit

S




Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Petrus on April 06, 2012, 03:17:35 pm

The C300 is still the only 'BBC approved' of the bunch at 50mbs internal codec


I thought Canon FX300/305 was BBC approved when it came out in 2010. It costs about 75% less, too...
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 06, 2012, 03:23:04 pm
I thought Canon FX300/305 was BBC approved when it came out in 2010. It costs about 75% less, too...

.. "of the bunch" (..of S35 or larger chipped) .. cameras the C300 is the only approved (apart from Red and Alexa I assume)

S
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 06, 2012, 03:30:35 pm
Sony had a full frame still camera for some time now. I think 2 models, 20 ish MP very tough. The design ergonomic IMO was superior to CaNikon, a camera for photographers but it wasn't very good in higher isos and the mount...well, very limited choice. Also as you point, were is the pro service? All that didn't incite the pros to go Sony for stills but they have the tech and they understand users.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/a900-nr.shtml

But I think that it's not that much in still camera only where the wind is blowing; more and more editorials are been shooting from Red cameras still-extracted. Right now.

If Sony, or whatever, brings a really good video camera with a good still resolution capability, more and more pros will go that route. One system for both.

I have the sensation that the "convergence cams" will not be still cameras doing motion but the opposite, motion cameras with high reso still capability.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 06, 2012, 03:45:43 pm
I'm lost.

I thought too that the FX300 was BBC approved, so as the Panasonic AF101.

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 06, 2012, 03:49:46 pm
Im more lost - dont even know what an FX300 is !

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 06, 2012, 03:50:57 pm
Im more lost - dont even know what an FX300 is !



Sorry  ;D XF
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: stewarthemley on April 06, 2012, 06:31:07 pm
Just as a bit of info: the Canon XF300/305 ARE BBC approved as their 50mbs/4.2.2 codec stands up to the broadcasting chain, which is more than a clour grading process, and has several operations that degrade any image, even if only slightly.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Petrus on April 07, 2012, 01:56:02 am
Im more lost - dont even know what an FX300 is !

Don't pay any attention to me, I do not even know which camera I am using!  ;D
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 07, 2012, 06:35:46 am
another video.. FS700

IMO the sun in the frame is looking very good..

https://vimeo.com/39888828
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 07, 2012, 06:48:43 am
Looks very much like a hacked GH2 footage. Very good.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 07, 2012, 07:44:27 am
.. and something to watch it on from sony ..http://www.electrictv.com/?p=16064&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ElectricTVcom+%28ElectricTV.com%29
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: KevinA on April 08, 2012, 10:17:41 am
another video.. FS700

IMO the sun in the frame is looking very good..

https://vimeo.com/39888828

Says Password protected
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 08, 2012, 12:11:32 pm
He put it up then had to take it down (NDA) - I think it will be back on Tuesday

S
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 08, 2012, 03:59:30 pm
I'm super enthusiastic with this Sony. It's been some time I wasn't excited by a camera.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: BJNY on April 08, 2012, 09:24:58 pm
http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=10700
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 09, 2012, 04:32:38 am
I don't believe any camera is the holy grail, but I think Sony got a fire under em and lit the fuse.

This is where it's gotta go, a film makers camera that offers options like slo mo and a frame big enough to throw focus without breaking the bank.

I take the testimonials with a slight grain of salt, because like all camera makers they're not going to throw someone in the mix that says "huh, video, we don't shoot no video man", but the film makers world is changing like it did with stills and the company that comes out with the most film like moiton camera like digital motion camera will do to the film market what Canon did to the still market.

There is one thing I'd always like to ask any artist endorsing any equipment is . . . do they pay you, give you a discount, hold your hand, wash your car, or give out free t-shirts.*

I'm brand agnostic, but after shelpping 13 cases around the world I'd love to have one camera that used the same lenses, would go to fast autofocus to slow manual focus, high iso, great sound mix, and work with every standard gizmo in the biz and oh yea, every lens (let me say this again, every lens) should have image stabilization.

I think this Sony may be it and though 10 grand for an electronic box still seems like a lot, I look at those 4 cases of RED's I own and I think hmmm, 10 grand's pretty cheap.

IMO

BC

*now I'm not knocking paid endorsements, especially if they show the artists work to sell stuff, cause that's what most of us do . . . shoot images to sell stuff, because that's a big plus in my book.

I always get bummed when some guy that has a 600,000 reader blog says, ________ was kind enough to loan me a _________ to test, when what I'd love to hear is _________ paid me to shoot this stuff so they could sell their camera.

The next thing that bums me out is when they say I "tested" this camera where what you want to hear is their client say, "wow we just shot the big panty campaign and the client loved it cause their sales increased 400%.

That would get my attention.*

*tge 400% part, not the big panty part.

Yea.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Craig Lamson on April 09, 2012, 09:04:19 am
Sony to ax 10,000 jobs, to lose 2.7 billion.....

http://marketday.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/09/11092732-report-sony-to-ax-10000-jobs-expects-27-billion-net-loss
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Bern Caughey on April 10, 2012, 02:20:57 pm
I could run a list of Canon misses and they would go on for two pages.

Sad but true.

Still the C300 is selling like crazy, & it seems Canon is about to announce more cinema cameras, one likely dSLR-style, & another much more expensive model.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 10, 2012, 03:40:24 pm
Sad but true.

Still the C300 is selling like crazy, & it seems Canon is about to announce more cinema cameras, one likely dSLR-style, & another much more expensive model.

Yea, I read that Sony is laying off, mostly because their televsion set business has lost money for years (also they took a large right down on their income for taxes).  

For a while Sony and others counted on 3d, now they are counting on 4k tv's but I don't know what cable system or netwwork is going to adopt it.  Sony doesn't make a lot of components for their set top boxes anyway, so they're is more issues at play than Sony making good product. 

As far as the Canon c-300 selling, I guess so, especially from one large retailer in that specializes in Canon., but I don't really understand what impact that camera has on people like us.  I'm not 100% sold on 4k footage, but I am sold on any camera that can shoot pretty and be 100% reliable and fast.  

I do know with a few more options including a lower price, maybe a more robust or raw file I'd have given it a harder look.  I aso know the 5d3 will sell a billion more cameras than the C-300 and if it really would track focus . . .  they'd probably sell a few trillion more cameras.

Anyway, Sony's troubles (and I'm sad about them laying people off), could be good for our industry as all corporate earnings are down this month, mostly because companies can no longer make money in cutting costs, now they have to produce revolutionary product or at least damn good evolutionary product, hopefuly better advertising and every segment of every market must be taken seriously.  In other words in the "new economy" you buy a camera almost because you have to . . . not because you just want to.

I still think the new Sony fs700 will be a hard camera to beat as long as they get it right and get it solid and whatever Canon does is fine with me.   I hope it's also good, but if it gets past the cost of a Scarlet, it's off the table.  If it's more reliable and Sony get's their message out . . . really gets it out and some famous director or producer uses one for a big time movie, they sell even more.

I think the market just can't sustain half a dozen manufacturer's making $20,000 or $30,000 cameras that are slow off the mark without everything available.   At least not to the photographer that is "adding" motion imagery.  It's more than cameras and lenses and tripods and computers and learning curve.  It's other heavy hard costs like continuous lighting, different crew, sometimes larger crew and more importantly working in a way that takes a lot of very, very, very well managed pre production.

In fact I'm a little amazed that Canon or Sony or someone with deep pockets hasn't bought a bunch of 3rd party companies like Zaguto and made it a one stop all place to buy everything you need.    See RED for reference.

I look at this cameras in two ways.  First as a tool to use in my profession, which trumps everything.  If they cost a lot, add crew, make life more difficult then they are not really a step forward.

I love the R-1's, not because they're raw, or because they're big, but because for me they're damn reliable (looking for some wood to knock on) and shoot pretty.  Now the FS100 I find almost as good and for fast quick movement you can do things with them that would have taken a large team and a lot of equipment to pull off.  The Scarlet . . . it scares the s&^t out of me.  I've downloaded firmwares, read the manual a dozen times, (and I've never read a camera manual before in my life), shot 4 dozen tests, used them in big production and I still can't tell you that I'm 100% sure everything on the scarlet is 100% there.  It always feels a little beta to me.

Maybe I'll postpone Von's trip to Canon Ranch or take a Ride in the RED Team van and get a lesson.  (Von can you teach the Scarlet from the back of a van?

I also see these cameras in a way few of us want to admit.  When you spend thousands, or multiple thousands of dollars you want to enjoy yourself and have fun.  I know, fun is a word in short demand lately, but buying new shiny stuff is fun because if it wasn't we'd all drive a small white van with tiny cloth seats. 

I just came out of a meeting yesterday with clients and we talked concept, delivery, script, schedule and everyone was very businesslike and serious until I said, "hey, no matter what, let's make this big fun." 

Then everyone smiled because let's face it fun is fun.

To me since Sony has excellent autofocus and real professional xlr inputs for sound, now they need a simpler menu, a real post processing suite for dailies and most of all affordable fast lenses that work in auto and manual focus that don't cost 12 grand a pop.    Some of that let's you shoot with fun.

I don't care if those e-mount lenses feel lightweight or weigh 5 lbs, but they need to be out there now . . . right now . . . oh yea . . . and be shiny and fun.

IMO

BC



Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 11, 2012, 04:03:31 am
I think the C300 - a lot of Houses bought a 5d and a load of Lglass - a big attraction for the C300.. and that onboard 50MBs

Fun.

There is also a mechanical joy.
Ive used an Epic for 2 mins, but I instantly loved PL mount. Click clunk.
I love changing the ISO or Colour temp on the 5d.
I threw the handle out on the FS100 because I didnt like the texture and hardness of the plastic
Changing the shutter speed on the FS100 is nasty - and prone to going to auto if you are not watching
Having a Post it taped on the back of the FS100 describing your picture profiles, that you cant name, its not fun
All the wires hanging off a C300 dont look like fun
In the early days I had a Letus adapter to make my nikons work on my EX1 - again I binned it because it was no fun to use

We are still actually missing a camera that is fun to use?

I blogged..
http://dslr4real.tv/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=100&Itemid=1

S




Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Hywel on April 11, 2012, 05:27:42 am
Fun is a vastly under-rated thing!

Playing is one of the most valuable skills humans have. Messing around with something for fun is the key to REALLY understanding and mastering it. There's a reason children spend the first 10 or so years of their lives playing- it is the best way to learn.

I use FCP-X and Aperture rather than Premiere Pro and Lightroom purely because I find them fun to use. They happen to work the way I think, so I use them to play around and experimenting and trying new stuff and seeing what happens just because it is fun. As a result I can find myself at 11 pm editing and thinking "oh damn, where did the evening go?" Whereas with Lightroom I couldn't wait to get the work done and quit it.

I've built a second career out of what was my hobby. Protecting some of the fun that got me into it in the first place is very important (or you could call it protecting my own artistic integrity- same thing). That's actually why I shoot on a Hasselblad MFD and a Scarlet. I shoot for the web- the bean counting decision would have been that a 7D was more than enough for everything I do. It just isn't as satisfying seeing a scene you've spent thousands of pounds and hours of pre-production pop up in the dailies in "good enough" format as it is in "wow, did WE shoot that?" format :) :) :)

By all means invest in tech that does what you absolutely need it to do. But getting stuff you ENJOY using is even more important, and that's something only you can decide, hands-on. Does it think the way you think? Does it say "Shiny! Use me! Play with me!" to you? (And forget what other people think. All that matters is if it is fun for YOU).

Best post of the year, BC!

  Cheers, Hywel.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 11, 2012, 06:04:19 pm
Looks like the box is really opening

http://www.eoshd.com/content/7846/canon-to-reveal-4k-cinema-cameras-c500-and-cinema-1d-full-specs

S
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: billy on April 12, 2012, 02:56:26 pm
"To me since Sony has excellent autofocus and real professional xlr inputs for sound, now they need a simpler menu, a real post processing suite for dailies and most of all affordable fast lenses that work in auto and manual focus that don't cost 12 grand a pop.    Some of that let's you shoot with fun.

I don't care if those e-mount lenses feel lightweight or weigh 5 lbs, but they need to be out there now . . . right now . . . oh yea . . . and be shiny and fun.

IMO

BC"

How about the Sony A lenses with an adaptor, you try that yet? Does the AF still work?




[/quote]
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 12, 2012, 04:05:26 pm
"To me since Sony has excellent autofocus and real professional xlr inputs for sound, now they need a simpler menu, a real post processing suite for dailies and most of all affordable fast lenses that work in auto and manual focus that don't cost 12 grand a pop.    Some of that let's you shoot with fun.

I don't care if those e-mount lenses feel lightweight or weigh 5 lbs, but they need to be out there now . . . right now . . . oh yea . . . and be shiny and fun.

IMO

BC"

How about the Sony A lenses with an adaptor, you try that yet? Does the AF still work?






I do have two A mount lenses that are fast though the adapter I have only allows for Iris control.  There is suppose to be an autofocus adpapter and firmware upgrade soon.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: billy on April 14, 2012, 09:41:31 pm
sony fs700 test:

http://vimeo.com/40369782

the autofocus looks pretty darn useable.

they also speak of the berger electronic focus puller being used with it. anyone ever use one? do you track with a finger on  an external wireless monitor?
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 15, 2012, 06:22:09 am
sony fs700 test:

http://vimeo.com/40369782

the autofocus looks pretty darn useable.

they also speak of the berger electronic focus puller being used with it. anyone ever use one? do you track with a finger on  an external wireless monitor?

Real men don't autofocus  . . . right?  I  heard that back in the still photography days and I resisted it out of some kind of macho thing, until I used a camera like the Nikon that could virtually hit autofocus on 90% of the imagery.

Then you sent hmm, this is nice.

The two downsides to the Sony autofocus is you have to keep the main subject somewhat close to the center.  It does seem to track a little off center once the subject is moving but once the subject gets far right/fat left it pulls the background.

It would be great if sony had adjustable focus points like a still camera or even better a moveable focus point like a scarlet where you could track focus, or even beter than that, real face recognition like those tiny nikon point and shoots.

Anyway.

The second downside to the fs autofocus is your doing a shot wide open and the subject is moving to the camera in a left to right, (or right to left motion) and once the subject passes, it will pull to the background.

Motion cameras autofocus is not generally set up to snap focus so it doesn't just slam the background into focus once the subject passes, but it does go fast enough to be noticeable, which takes the viewer to the background expecting something to be there.

The best way around this is to have your hand on the manual/auto focus of the lens and click it to manual once the subject is still in frame but right before it exits.   It doesn't take a lot of practice with this.

The autofocus with a subject coming towards you with a long lens is very good, as long as you have a clear view.  A field is easy, a busy new york street isn't.

Where the FS series shines is if your tracking with the subject in some moving device, whether it's a dolly or a low budget wheelchair.  You get a great look, the subjects can stop turn, do normal things other than walk at a constant speed and look realistic.  For these situations it's great.

Now if your going to manually pull focus without an expert focus puller I strongly suggest those tiny Zeiss Nikon mount lenses.    The throw is short, even for long distance movement, like 1/4 block away to full face and since the lens turn is about 1/4 to 1/2 of an inch in rotation, it takes usually one of two practice runs and your brain will lock in.  Those tiny Ziess still lenses look really tiny on something like an R-1 but they are scary sharp and so well built there is no slop in the focusing, so even someone new to film making can pick this up in a few minutes.

What I think all motion cameras need is some kind of image stabilization controlled by the body, rather than the lens (for practical reasons.  It's really amazing how it smooths a shot out without that hand held see sick up and down movement you get in walking, or that floaty steadicam look which works well on some projects but kind of floats so much it seems to take some of the realism out of the shot.  (just an opinion).

What I don't understand is why there isn't some kind of third party infrared focus puller that allows a second person to point at a subject and that is relayed to the camera to hold just one subject in focus, (like the long lens type of shot of a person walking down a busy NY street).

Maybe that is technically not possible.

Regardless the FS 700 looks like a pretty good deal, the slow mo if not overused is nice, though it also needs time lapse which is a ver nice way to insert a background scene into a video piece. 

The built in ND's are worth the bump in price, though Sony needs to add a bunch of constant F stop e-mount lenses yesterday, and/or get that new adapter and firmware out that allows their full range of A mount lenses to autofocus easily (especially with image stabilization).

IMO

BC

P.S.  I like this guys little test and he showed that good footage can be obtained without a crew of 20.  Still I would love to see a real test or report where there is serious money on the line $30,000 or so with client's impossible schedules and budget concerns.  Also follow the footage from pre pro to final output.

That's the stuff that everyone really wants to know, before putting down the 10 grand worth of camera gear.  IMO
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 15, 2012, 06:53:33 am
Focus - 1993 - my hero sports photographer (David Ashdown) - famed for single frames with an FM2 and manually pulling a 400

I managed to get a place next to him at the ground - a pile of nikon  f4 and AF lenses - lesson learned

The FS700 has face tracking and that update may come to the Fs100 too in firmware.

Because SonCanon listen to dumbass Hollywood there is no decent AF yet

You need the lot - multiple areas - noted on screen , range (stops hunting) , programmable pulls (EX1 has this) , click to manual.. all on a pistol grip with good ergonomics

Coots - I don't know if you have seen this.. cinetape on most cine cameras in the 'wood
http://www.cinemaelec.com/products/cinetapemeasure.php
Only $20g, various systems are under development to make it talk to the lens (via external motor) - all expensive and will be a spaghetti of wires and power issues

The makers don't seem to have aderssed 50 at 2 in any way yet!

As for stabillizing a camera - Id be interested to see your rig - a longer heavier more spread out rig (http://dslr4real.tv/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=98&Itemid=1) has INTERTIA that brings stability - or at least kills jitter

When you run down the road with a ladder it mainly points in the same direction.. INERTIA .. one thing Mr Halibut has right.. alwats a long rig on the shoulder

S




Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 15, 2012, 07:01:11 am
Real men don't autofocus  . . . right?  

I think that real men autofocus when they're sure autofocus will give them more accuracy than their real men habilities.

If in stills it's generally the case, I think in motion we're not there yet.

I read your post and the list of "buts" and "ifs" is still quite big enough.

All AF systems should be transparent, like any automatic pilot in a plane. Once you touch the focussing ring you should be abble to be in manual without having to press any button. It should be instant.
The problem is that those AF lenses thought to be AF are geerally hell when it comes to use them in manual config.
The ring is loose and not precise, the touch is plastic feeling and the turning range inoperative.

I think a skilled operator in most situation has a better accuracy than any AF system in motion to date.

It's all about training IMO.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 15, 2012, 07:03:44 am
I think a skilled operators in most situation has a better accuracy than any AF system in motion to date.

The FS100 with a tele and the subject closing in - tech is best - I am sure .. its even working in the trees !

But the macho men dont want to know - thats why we "no rules" stills people have an advantage

https://vimeo.com/28015947

S

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 15, 2012, 07:10:47 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO43p2Wqc08
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 15, 2012, 08:06:11 am
Sure they're some ifs and buts, but most of the time the AF autofocus works very well and has less oops moments that a good dedicated focus puller.

It also allows for more spontaneous shooting.

With all due respect, your not a producer.   Adding one crew member for us is not the day cost, it's catering, parking, changing the permit rates if you go over a certain amount of people, airfare, hotels . . . you get the idea.

Just give me the autofocus on a lowly nkion D3 and it would save an hour a day and a lot of money.

I use a very good focus puller and he misses it 30% of the time.  Luckily focus on motion is not as critical in viewing as focus on stills, but watch a movie, big budget and look at how tack sharp it is (it isn't).  We're suppose to be in a technology advanced world and we're focusng with wheels, tape marks and measuring tapes.  

I don't buy into the macho man I can focus an eyelash at 300 yards.  A friend of mine who is an old world famous photographer from the Avedon era says that he's never seen a "great" still photograph in focus.   I somewhat believe him.  

I mean go to a still set and you'll hear the photographer turn and say to the tech, "is it in, is it in" and that's for studio flash F11 images.

I don't agree with the autopilot analogy, because focusing has nothing to do with the art of framing, directing, lighting, mood, storytelling, etc.  It's just a technical excercize that we sometimes use to shift the story line from one subject to the next, but it shouldn't be such a big damn deal.

I agree with Morgan.   They listen to Hollywood (usually union guys) rather than the 90% that are actually going to buy, not rent these cameras.

Sometimes I'm the director, sometimes the dp/director, sometimes the dp/director/gaffer/focus puller editor and colorist but the most important role I have is co-producer, because we work from a bottom line and we want to turn all the profit we can.

Right or wrong, if I could do this gig with one person, I would.

IMO

BC

P.S.   I believe that if Sony markets the FS700 right and I mean really markets it rather than the way they usually advertise and sell stuff, they could eat Canon's lunch with this camera.  Once again, they just have to get the lenses and that raw file box out there now.  They also need to make stuff available without the secret RED handshake, or the Canon list of 30 cameras to do one job.

P.S. 2  - I love shooting with spontaneous and loathe locked down, walk to the spot, say your lines shots.  It's hard to make motion look good and look real.  I love it when people are in motion, those unplanned moments where they laugh, turn their head, walk faster, look like real people not actors that stand in a spot and give a monolog.

That's why you see so much better imagery MOS than you ever do in dialog . . . or usually.  In other words I like it to look like fun and even better I love to work when it's fun.


I think that real men autofocus when they're sure autofocus will give them more accuracy than their real men habilities.

If in stills it's generally the case, I think in motion we're not there yet.

I read your post and the list of "buts" and "ifs" is still quite big enough.

All AF systems should be transparent, like any automatic pilot in a plane. Once you touch the focussing ring you should be abble to be in manual without having to press any button. It should be instant.
The problem is that those AF lenses thought to be AF are geerally hell when it comes to use them in manual config.
The ring is loose and not precise, the touch is plastic feeling and the turning range inoperative.

I think a skilled operator in most situation has a better accuracy than any AF system in motion to date.

It's all about training IMO.

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 15, 2012, 09:54:05 am
James.

The plane analogy was strictly focussed on autofocus (no pun), not on framing or moods. In AF config, you end to know, as you pointed well, when it's gona be fooled and can anticipate manually. So I don't see why we should have to press a button to enabled-disable MF when it can be done (the OM AF lenses for ex) just using the ring as if it was in MF. The moment you use the ring the camera "understands" that you are taking things under control.
But that also implies that those AF lenses would have a proper focussing ring, precise in use, wich is generally not the case.

On the producer. Of course I know that it is always easy to speak when one does not write the checks, although I'm aware of what it means because I have access to the costs. I understand you. But I've seen many cameramen operating without focus-puller and manually focussing. In professional broadcast most cameramen are skilled enough to have a great level of accuracy in MF config. They don't need follow focus nor assistant. You know that as well if not better as me. I've seen it many times. So we also should recognize that there are some skilled and practises involved in the process. The problem could be asked the other way. If you say: I'm writing the checks and if I can reduce the crew I'm happy, it could be also asked the other way: who's operating the motion camera? Both lead to the same results, one is acheived by a tech that isn't really there yet, the other is acheived by a high skilled cameraman and it's a lot of practise.

About focussing acuracy, yeah, motion forgives more than stills to some extend. But the "I've never seen a great still photograph in focus", it's partly truth but it's very much a mundaine fashionable sentence like every respected master have in their magic hat to have things to say on interviews or parties so people feel they are even greater. You're an old cat enough in this high-end business to know those things very well and I actually know you beleive it with a smile.

But the most important is what you point in the end, and there I coincide: "I love to work when it's fun".

Me too.
  
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 15, 2012, 10:10:13 am
But I've seen many cameramen operating without focus-puller and manually focussing. In professional broadcast most cameramen are skilled enough to have a great level of accuracy in MF config.

With a 2/3 chip maybe - or F11 - really S35 or larger chip and F2-4 is not something most broadcast camera people do

Using such large chips in motion outside of formal drama is a very new game since 2009 - and those who pretend they can play it are liars (apart from me:) )

Most cameras dont even have beyond SD monitoring so even a genius cannot know what is sharp when recording 1080 let alone 4k

Its the same with 22mp stills - I just cant see 22mp in a GG finder - its either AF or guess work

Actually the main thing that makes most TV people able to focus is the very weak and loose framing - some of those bike shots I linked earlier the wheel is half filling the frame - getting focus on that is im sure virtually impossilbe even for the best Hollywood puller

S


Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 15, 2012, 10:17:04 am
I couldn't disagree more, again.

Here in madrid I know a 30' years in business cameraman at the highest level. He shooted for Broadcast and cine and runs his own prod house for the fun because he erans a lot of money as dp. The guy is old now, and you could think that his vision is not as accurate... I've coincide on set with him not a long time ago. He shoots also a 5D2 with manual Scheinder lenses (still lenses). He shooted drama and action without assistant, without a follow-focus but with a 7" monitor on a very reduced rig, focussing manually his Schneider lenses like a photographer. And his grade of accurate focussing and keepers is absolutly stunning. It's all about the experience on the craft. Don't fool yourself there.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 15, 2012, 10:22:04 am
Yes and no.

You must agree with me that he cannot be using his eyes to do it

the 5d only puts out 480px so the best one can resolve off the any monitor with the 5d is 480px - which is 1/4 of 1080

So he is guessing 3/4 of the pixels - you cant argue with that because its technical fact

Now he may have developed a very good feel with the lenses to focus 'blind' which is what film people do - but he cant be seeing it on the monitor

The FS100 gives 720 to the monitor - so I can see twice as good as anyone with a 5d (2) - its why I hate the 5d2 as an A camera

Of course there are great artists out there - esp the old guys !

S

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 15, 2012, 10:27:10 am
I agree that the 5d is crap on that aspect. The precision of the GH2 for ex is much higher.(also 720)

Yes, of course, those foxes are intuying, they smell things, they anticipate. No doubt. It's exactly the same with a painter. They end to work almost "blind", they have the experience behind. The way they hang the gear, etc...
You know immediatly if a cameraman is experienced just the way they hang the camera.

There are also lenses that help a lot to MF with precision and others that complicate it and make it more uncertain.  
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 15, 2012, 10:33:59 am
For sure - Im obsessive with finding lenses with the right feel - and no sony that I have handled is in that category - in fact only a very few AF lenses at all

its silly because Im lumping around the sony kit lens 18-200 and manuals 18, 35-70 and an 18-70 and a 100-300 in my bag number one (not to mention my 'prime bag')

if there was good alternative Id prefer less lenses - but each of those has a specific job

sony lens - ultra RnG or 200mm with Af and stabilisation
18 - nice straight wides
35-70 interviews with wonderful focus feel
18-70 better range for RnG but the focus ring is not as good as the pure manual

a 19-90 of suitable quality (see other thread) I would be a one lens man..

S
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: ziocan on April 15, 2012, 11:58:07 am
In focus or tack sharp could be 2 different things.
At the end of the day, for the viewer, the client, the Hollywood producer, the art directors that does not look at lens test on vimeo, "in focus" is plenty good even when it is not "tack sharp".

"Tack sharp" on the beautiful Olivia Wilde face, on House TV shows, was not always pleasant. since you could tell the make up patch covering up the occasional little pimple on her chin.

So the old guy that focus by hand and get his stuff in focus, at the end of the day get his job done on the best possible way, despite the canon 5d external monitor resolution cannot prove it was tack sharp.
At the end of the day who cares... When it is in focus, it is in focus. ;)


Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 15, 2012, 12:21:29 pm
Nobody's asking me, but if I had the digital motion camera I wanted it would be the form factor of my Contax still cameras, which are not much different than the Sony fs100 or the Scarlet, except.

I'd want real shutter knobs and real F stops on the lenses.  All lenses would have image stabilization, the menus would be much simpler to navigate and I'd like a larger frame size than Super 35, probably around 24 x36 or maybe slightly larger.  I'd want a square sensor so I could easily set any crop I wanted from vertical to 16x9, 1:85, 2 to 1, square, etc.

I'd like the lenses as sharp as my Contax, and as solid.

Today I spent my one day off messing with the Scarlet, reading the ops manual, watching tutorials and though I still think the Scarlet is a work in progress, just setting shutter speed, iris, WB, iso, and sound settings is totally non intuative.  I don't mind learning new tech, but on the Scarlet there are about 10 places on the touch screen and the handle and the red mote (if it was shipping) to make any setting and everytime you turn it back on, something changes.

It's virtually impossible to remember all of these.  The Sony is slightly easier but requires a very light touch to move any dial or setting and it's not a camera you ever pick up with a full hand grip, because you'll almost always touch something you shouldn't.

I know these new motion cameras do amazing things, but man the learning curve on operations is steep.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Bern Caughey on April 25, 2012, 07:07:52 pm
I always thought the Sony was an insult to ergonomics, but now the handle is relocatable I could see working with one.

http://vimeo.com/40527844

Slap a TVLogic EVF on the front, & you've got a proper, yet compact, package.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: billy on April 25, 2012, 07:47:25 pm
"Insert Quote
I always thought the Sony was an insult to ergonomics, but now the handle is relocatable I could see working with one.

http://vimeo.com/40527844

Slap a TVLogic EVF on the front, & you've got a proper, yet compact, package.
Posted on: April 15, 2012, 11:21:29 AM"


Did the DP in the video say 8 auto-focus points and face detection auto-focus as well? Wow.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 30, 2012, 05:15:29 am
I always thought the Sony was an insult to ergonomics, but now the handle is relocatable I could see working with one.

http://vimeo.com/40527844

Slap a TVLogic EVF on the front, & you've got a proper, yet compact, package.


Bern,

Have you worked Scarlet for a month?   Just kidding  . . . well sort of.

You know at first I loathed the fs100 and the buttons drove me nuts until I realized they all had a purpose.   Also some are redundant but act as quick keys.

The second thing that bugged me about the fs series was the highlights would blow, but setting the screen to bright, slightly underexposing fix that.

The third thing I didn't like about the Sony is the avchd wrapper.   It's h264 which is a derivative of mpg4 so why not just make it that and save us some time in post?

Anyway,

During our last shoot and prior and later in testing I've tested the Scarlet, RED 1 and FS100 next to each other in exact circumstances and regardless of the numbers, mps, 4:4:4 vs 4:2:0 what ever, I don't see a 10% difference in the files from the REd to the Sony, probably not 5%.

I know at RED user net i'd be stoned to death for that remark, but that's what I see whether I grade in Di-Vinci, Apple Color, and it  shows me that I can hold highlights, hold mid-tones, have clean blacks and move the tile around.

Let me repeat though that you have to work the file in post, though I've never met an image that didn't require some post production, still or motion.

I know all RED's  feels like a military grade instrument and that I can really appreciate, where the Sony has that plastic video cam feel, but the two things I deeply care about are stability, usability and price.

I've beat the heck out of the Sony and it keeps on tickin", where the RED's always pull something on me I don't expect.

When it comes to video or motion cameras or whatever the term is it's the black hole of money and time.  You can take a 5d3 and kit it out, minus lenses and get to 12 grand so fast your head will spin, not including the cost of color grading suites and as unless someone knows a magic potion, we always color grade.

Then you get to sound.   If you think your the world's greatest image maker, do a series of dialog videos and clean sound is the 600 lb gorilla in the room.  Maybe 100lbs.

Now the only thing I wish with the new Sony is it had a little higher build quality and some less sensitive side controls, but for all it does the standard 2k version of the fs series is one heck of a deal.

The only thing I wish will all the digital video I own is if 1.   They would should a prorezz file to go straight to the editorial suite for cutting as a proxy and/or the ability to match the viewer screen and the evf that color calibrated to match the computer output.

I can understand why europe is ga-ga over the arri, because it produces a file ready to begin editing, but the downside is it's in Lamborghini territory, minus the floor mattes.   The upside is is if your a brand junkie the Arri is an Arri.

Oh and I also wish  continuous lighting didn't cost a gazzion dollars a watt, but at east hmi's have become smaller and more usable.  LED's are a good price but the light output is small and they sometimes color cast on flesh tones, but if your moving 14 cases of stuff around europe, and you see those overage charges gone ding, ding, ding, you learn to love LED's.

Bottom line is I still love my R-1, (wish they had image stabilization), but I dg the cameras.  Knowing that, there is nothing I've shot in two years that I could not have shot with the Sony and I wait for the 4k version, though will not plop down the money until the 4k module is out and fully tested.

Also Sony needs to up the level of their e mount lenses, like some T(F) stop constant zooms.   17 to 35.   35 to 70, 70 to 200.   That'll do it, other than the new mirror adapter which loses 1/3 to 1/2 of a stop (I can live with that) but limits all lenses to 3.5 at their most open aperture.

The Scarlet the jury is still out on.   The lcd is a love hate with that glossy screen, the autofocus even with the latest firmware is an easter egg hunt and that constant fan, even at 25% can be heard.    I know RED will fix most of this (someday in RED's don't ask time frame), but they'll fix it.

I know there is a module for the back that allows RED's mini xlr inputs (only two and we need 4), but it's a $3,500 tbd piece so I won't hold my breath.  To me the Scarlet kind of sets there waiting for the updates and it may be the only camera I will sell, I mean I still have my original 1ds, so I'm not an e-bay type of guy.

IMO

BC

P.S.  I've said this before and not to get onto RED's bad or good side (I doubt they know I exist), but I do know they've pushed the market forward like no other maker in either stills or motion.  I also wish them more than well if they would just do one thing . . . get rid of those silly damn waiting lists and be clear of where you stand and when stuff will be out.






Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 30, 2012, 10:36:13 am

During our last shoot and prior and later in testing I've tested the Scarlet, RED 1 and FS100 next to each other in exact circumstances and regardless of the numbers, mps, 4:4:4 vs 4:2:0 what ever, I don't see a 10% difference in the files from the REd to the Sony, probably not 5%.

I know at RED user net i'd be stoned to death for that remark, but that's what I see whether I grade in Di-Vinci, Apple Color, and it  shows me that I can hold highlights, hold mid-tones, have clean blacks and move the tile around.

I second that. I did similar testings some months ago and came to the same conclusion. In normal circunstances the impact of highly compressed h264 is almost impossible to detect in a blind test.
I reiterated the tests with Panasonic P2 files, uncompressed formats, Prores 444 etc...because I thought I made a mistake, and nothing. Regardless of the file size and compression. I bet nobody would win on a blind contest "who's who" unless it's been projected on a giant screen.
Michael Reichmann did also some testing with an ext recording device and could not detect either the magic increment in quality compared to the h.264 of the camera.
But under circunstances when there is a clear exposure issue, Raw wins so Red wins.
What yes do have a drastically impact are the bits. I've never seen a Red or Alexa footage with banding, yes all dslrs and the gh2, all 8bits devices. 8 bits isn't good really, and that's visible from the planet Venus (but not always).


The only thing I wish will all the digital video I own is if 1.   They would should a prorezz file to go straight to the editorial suite for cutting as a proxy and/or the ability to match the viewer screen and the evf that color calibrated to match the computer output.

That's the grail but it's not unfortunatly wysiwyg as you point.  I've been close doing a D.I.Y following the advice of a cine crew. I shoot a typical location and reviewed the footage on a calib monitor conected to the computer. Then I play the same frame on both the camera field monitor and I'd use the monitor's controls to get the closer to what I see live on the computer. Same with the camera settings themselves. It sort of works. It's interesting to have on monitors HDMI in and out so it's possible to set multiple monitors at the same time. It's not a perfect solution but it avoids bad surprises.
I use a lot the histogram as we don't really have a reliable monitoring.

I can understand why europe is ga-ga over the arri, because it produces a file ready to begin editing, but the downside is it's in Lamborghini territory, minus the floor mattes.   The upside is is if your a brand junkie the Arri is an Arri.

But also because, to be frank, the output is outstanding. DR is enormous and it looks like film. Then, the implementation of the controls are made in such a way that cine operators feel at home.
Color is great, it's weather sealed and can handle harsh climate and rain as it, it's not too big, it shoots also Avid codecs, it has a good worldwide service, it features the hability you talk on the previous paragraph (images recorded = images seen), the menu is the best and most intuitive I've ever seen included still cameras,
etc...
So in the end it's not just about 5, 6, 7ks but IMO the Arri, despite being not as muscled as Red is a real serious tool that helps the workflow in all most demanding aspects. I think it's more than the name-reputation, but it's unfortunatly expensive.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on April 30, 2012, 12:34:39 pm
Cinematographers make still photographers look asleep when it comes to brand worship.

Videographers seem to care more if the Rocker switch is easy to use, the lens is a Fujinon and it green screens.

Once again, I'm brand agnostic and I don't care if it's made from plastic or platinum, as long as it works and the file looks good.

I briefly read some guys review of the Sony and he hated the because the handle  felt loose.  Buy a washer.    

I haven't shot an Arri, don't know if I will, I do doubt seriously if I'll buy one, but I'd love to do my own tests and see what the difference is because I've seen little difference between my REDS and the Sony and yes I've seen banding, but I've twisted the file so hard that the sensors used for the hubble telescope would have banded.

My point is it's all the file, the usability and the costs.    The thought of dropping 80k on a camera body is more than my brain will absorb.  I feel the same way at 50k and I own three RED's, though the Scarlet is an inch away from going onto RED user for sale   section.   I'm just tired of waiting.

All I can suggest anyone do is close the web, go rent or borrow a few cameras and shoot them.   Mount sound receivers, a decent tripod, shoot the file, download it and twist the hell out of the curves and tell me which is which, because unless you have a 10,000 pixel display I'll bet you can't tell.

The motion capture biz sit on it's hands for 4 decades with the options being film, 4 grand prosumer cameras, $200,000 ENGS, or 2 million dollar vipers.  Then RED saw the hole in the market and boom everybody has jumped in . . . some better than others.

My suggestion is to buy a sony, epoxy a 4lb block of finned cast iron onto the base and change all the logos from Sony to xRED.

Either that and paint it gray put an 8lb block of smooth cast iron on the base and change the logos to xARRI.

That should do it.

IMO

BC


Maybe if most cinematographers bought instead of rented they'd see the world different.   They remind me of colorists that use to work in those now closed 4 story buildings and used Pablo 4k at $114,000 a pop and thought Apple color was for their uncle Harvey, until they we're forced to freelance and now say yea man, that ol' apple color sure is good.

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on April 30, 2012, 02:49:43 pm
Got your points James, specially on the astronomic budgets side and how you draw the panorama. It's true.

Now about the Arri, it depends really. After all it's just about a little more expensive than those magical high-end MF backs...(each time I think about it I'm indignated).

But I've been sort of knowing you through your posts since I joined the forum and you expressed your needs and desires that are constant in both still or motion.
Well, the Arri is in fact, in my humble opinion, a camera for you. But I agree that it's expensive.

With the log-C, you'd gain DR in both shadows and highlights, a lot. It allows some filming that otherwise would go to the garbage.

It's dangerous: if you rent one and work with it, there will be no return, and you'll be trapped: You'd want one. I'm sort of teasing but only 1/2.

I've worked with one an afternoon and coincide with Alexa's guys on set a par of time and of course jumped on questions with the operator-owner.

The equation is simple: maximum image quality, absolutly hassle-free and direct workflow, no noise. It's an enormous gain of time, problems to solve and in the end it's money saved.
Being able to shoot prores or dnxhd and output superb files ready to cut can justify the expense. As you often point, there are sometimes false economies and some device can be expensive at first but
money saver later.

It weights for my taste but on shoulder it's ok. A normal broadcast camera. It's rather small.

I would say the same if instead of Arri it would be named Barri or Garri. The fact is that the camera is a monster for advertising.

The only thing is that it's not a convergence camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWcqdMFkbhU

But yeah, Sony does very good products and well priced.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on May 01, 2012, 04:01:25 am
Got your points James, specially on the astronomic budgets side and how you draw the panorama. It's true.


snip

With the log-C, you'd gain DR in both shadows and highlights, a lot. It allows some filming that otherwise would go to the garbage.

It's dangerous: if you rent one and work with it, there will be no return, and you'll be trapped: You'd want one. I'm sort of teasing but only 1/2.

snip


Fred,

No . . . don't do this.   Not 80 grand.

 We are the production company and work from a bottom line.  Every inch of the bottom line from currency exchange to all travel.   Adding 80k for a camera body is virtually out of the quesiton rent or buy.  My R-1 will do the same, as well.  Maybe I loose a few hours in Cinex putting out a semi pleasing image ready for grading, but I've got two, I'm covered on backup and b cameras and don't want to think about adding anything.

BTW:  I have B cameras but don't ever shoot B footage, don't even address it when a client mentions it because when they say shoot a little footage got "reduced rate";

Reduced rate is that shot you get at the clinic when your 17.

You know the cost of this stuff.  Right now we're an inch away from moving to PeeCees, because Apple is dead in the water.  That means new software, for everything, new monitors, new internal drives, ram, mice, keyboards and that week of trouble shooting.

In fact I don't even care about working in 4k.  RED is pushing 4k footage like a Baptist preacher dunking heads in the river, but I don't see 4k for delivery for a long time.

If I'm wrong about projecting 4k,  my R-1's shoot 4k so I'm good.

I don't even want the fs700 except for the slo-mo (which I'll use 3% of the time) and the ND filters.

Even then I won't spend a penny until they really deliver 4k.

Same thing with the Scarlet.  89% of what I need is listed to come . . . really.

Th thing about the Scarlet and R-1 I thought they were suppose to be a R1 in a smaller package and they're missing some key features;

Cameras aside

What I'd really like is easier color grading.  We're learning Di-Vinci resolve and it's good but a dumb ass interface that is redundent and slow.  Sure it tracks well, so does apple color and compared to apple color which takes about 4 hours to learn, everyone says it takes years to get good at resolve.

Maybe Adobe will come out with something smart in CS6, but I kind of have my doubts.   I have a good colorists and can outsource, but it's as big a time suck as doing it ourselves.

I don't want Lightroom for video, I want photoshop for video that tracks and works without adjustment layers, but real layers with selections, in other words like photoshop works with stills.  Do a frame and transfer the settings throughout the clip.  Mark a face or a body or a shirt and let the adjustment track wthout ten minutes of setting up preference.

Also I'd like rendering under a week.

Anyway, The R1's are our workhorses, the Sony for fun imagery, the Scarlet  . . . well I'm still not sure what it does and if you think any motion file makes a stunning sill, shoot the session in motion, then dedicate a few moments wth a 5d3.  

You will see a big difference and make you wonder why tried to combine the two.  "Today it's more marketing than substance".

Tomorrow who know?

IMO

BC

i'll admit I do have a soft spot for old venerable names in our's and other industries.

Hasselblad, Arri, Zeiss - Contax, even Nikon and Pentax mean something to me, pretty much in that order.



Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Bern Caughey on May 01, 2012, 12:54:14 pm
I've never met a DP who owns an Alexa, but do know operators that do. One recently ordered two of the new Studio versions.

But their business model is rental, specifically for shows they're working on. They'll churn, & burn, so wouldn't see much depreciation.

I can't imagine many others owning ARRIs.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Bern Caughey on May 01, 2012, 01:08:46 pm
I'm very interested in the next Sony, but almost wish it wouldn't do 4k, rather save the resolution for downsampling to pristine 2k. What I do want is smoother gradients, much improved highlight rendition, & great skin.

It kills me that Sony provides little information about their recorder. I'm tired of waiting on promises, & want complete solutions that are ready to go.

If the Canon's overcrank looked as good as it's 24p I'd likely buy in, & be done with it, but this limitation combined with it's 8 bit depth, keep me hoping for a more complete solution.

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Bern Caughey on May 01, 2012, 01:50:32 pm
Roll off & details looking good. Love the rendition of hair.

http://vimeo.com/41323029
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on May 01, 2012, 02:23:43 pm
Well, this AF doesn't work for me. At all.

I know it's desirable, I know they are getting better, I know how good it will be but yes, it's a step, not the goal.

For the moment I think it's not working.

This isn't a stress AF test. The man should go to see Van Halen playing Eruption and try to film his fingers from the gtr neck with narrow focus while playing, and fingers have to be in focus and you have about 30cm of d.o.f and just about 1/2 second between hand changes position, and lets see how the contrast or phase detection or whatever detection we'd call it works. (I'm saying that because it's real world, it actually happened to me, so...)
The day tech allows this, I'd go AF.

Now, I think the camera looks good indeed.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: billy on May 01, 2012, 02:43:20 pm
Roll off & details looking good. Love the rendition of hair.

http://vimeo.com/41323029

I agree. The AF also seems to work remarkably well. He mentions the 2 types of AF; Phase detection with the A series lenses, and Face detection with the E mount lenses. These 2 types seem to both work well in their own way. Does anyone know if these 2 types of AF are available on the FS100 as well? I know you can use both types of lenses on it ( with the adaptor for the A series ). I am trying to grasp what the differences in AF are between the FS700 and FS100.

Sorry Fred : ) I need AF for run and gun corporate work.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on May 01, 2012, 03:37:21 pm
I agree. The AF also seems to work remarkably well.

It's a conspiracy !
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on May 01, 2012, 08:32:06 pm
The AF - Its certainly not working in his into

Sure it focuses, but on what

As for the rest hmmm....

S
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on May 01, 2012, 08:47:13 pm
Hi Morgan,

Nice to see the wild nite prowlers still alive at 2.30 in the morning. Just finished a bloody render that had some issue with QT (to change...) because of a 10 bits rare codec issue but now it's finally fixed.

Ahh...saw the same. The AF is not working, it's reassuring to hear it too, but the rest looks great.

Cheers and good night.

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Peter McLennan on May 02, 2012, 12:50:26 am
I've never met a DP who owns an Alexa, but do know operators that do. One recently ordered two of the new Studio versions.

Two things. 

First, no operator is going to bring a camera on set that hasn't been approved or probably specified by the DP. 

Second, the Alexa Studio has a optical viewfinder.  None of Arri's competitors (with the possible exception of the Sony F65) can make this claim.  Operators like optical viewfinders for several reasons,  most importantly that an optical viewfinder provides "safe area".  As far as I know, EVFs can't do this without sacrificing pixels.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on May 02, 2012, 03:39:13 am
but the rest looks great.

Did not watch it all but (and this is what I dont like about 'park videos') the AF didnt seem motivated in any way

AF only works if you/the director wants Character A tracked and the AF does track Character A

Sure it picked some things and got them sharp..

Until there are selectable user controllable zones its IMO useless for 90% of shots .. and a lifesaver in 5% where a clean subject approaches the camera at speed

S
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Bern Caughey on May 02, 2012, 02:09:09 pm
First, no operator is going to bring a camera on set that hasn't been approved or probably specified by the DP.

Or the production. Sony's notorious for specifing Sony cameras for their productions, though I think they may have tried Epics on the more recent episodes of Justified.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Bern Caughey on May 02, 2012, 02:17:52 pm
Hopefully the shimmering highlights will be fixed in the production camera.

http://vimeo.com/40773589

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: billy on May 02, 2012, 05:35:02 pm
I agree. The AF also seems to work remarkably well. He mentions the 2 types of AF; Phase detection with the A series lenses, and Face detection with the E mount lenses. These 2 types seem to both work well in their own way. Does anyone know if these 2 types of AF are available on the FS100 as well? I know you can use both types of lenses on it ( with the adaptor for the A series ). I am trying to grasp what the differences in AF are between the FS700 and FS100."

Can anyone respond to this? I cant find the info online. Or does anybody know a good Sony dealer in the US that can answer questions like this?

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on May 04, 2012, 09:43:39 am
I agree. The AF also seems to work remarkably well. He mentions the 2 types of AF; Phase detection with the A series lenses, and Face detection with the E mount lenses. These 2 types seem to both work well in their own way. Does anyone know if these 2 types of AF are available on the FS100 as well? I know you can use both types of lenses on it ( with the adaptor for the A series ). I am trying to grasp what the differences in AF are between the FS700 and FS100."

Can anyone respond to this? I cant find the info online. Or does anybody know a good Sony dealer in the US that can answer questions like this?



We have the convertor on order, but seeing the focus on some of the sony tutorials are pretty amazing.

Now the fs100 isn't perfect, but it's damn good, kills a 5d3, kills just about everthing but a RED One and will do things you just can't do with a RED One.

You can put it in a large carge and have a true locked down studio cam, two clicks on the cage and stick it on chest or shoulder mount and shoot hand held and fast.

The autofocus isn't perfect but works as well as any autofocus I've tried and will result in more useable imagery than most locked down cameras.

I can't wait for the 700s built in nd filters and whether it ever shoots 4k I don't care because I don't know anyone editing in 4k, unless it's for a RED conference.

Put an AJ mini box on a back plate and you'll go straight to prorezz without conversion which will save you 3 hours a days minimum in making a work print (I guess we have work prints in the digital world.)

The only downside is the new convertor loses 1/2 a stop and keeps a lens a 3.5 in autofocus, though if you compare a a mount ziess next to the kit lens, both a 3.5, for some reason the out of focus a mount zeiss is much more cinema looking than the kit lens.

Anyway, youi can do most of what you want to do with the fs100 and I think the 700 is a little overpriced (I think all this stuff is overpriced), but if you want to say you shoot a 4k camera this is probably the best way to get there.

BTW:   I mentioned this before but we just did a 4 country shoot, dialog and wild, using the R-1, Scarlet and the fs100.  75% was shot on one of the RED's, 25% on the FS100 and through our first edit 65% or more is from the fs100 because it's so moveable and fast.

Does the RED shoot a better file . . . yes by about 10 to 20%, but in color grading they get much closer.  Does the RED look more industrial and kick ass, yes by themselves they do wihtout a cage or an external monitor, but does the RED let you do what the FS100 and FS700 does?   Not yet.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on May 04, 2012, 10:38:21 am
Coots

Talking of wasting money I think you shoudl consider a SoundDevices Pix240 is you want to record Proess

(you could do it right now with the HDMI on the FS100.. and be getting a backup on your internal drive if the wire goes wonky

My experience of Sound Devices is that they are brilliant build, run off Vlock batteries (you can run the cam from the same batt) and the sound preamps are top class

And you get I think jamable time code and maybe four tracks of sound .. 2 mics at 2 levels

I think you should try recording the Scarlet too and then you get XLR on it..

S
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on May 05, 2012, 01:27:30 pm
Morgan,

We'll look at them all.  The only reasons for this is for the REDS, we can go to hopefully a workable proxy without waiting to run through cine-x.

The reason for the Sony is obvious as it shoots h264 in a wrapper and has to be unwrapped, then transcoded, then slightly adjusted, even for proxy.

But, thanks for the info, we'll test both.  I only thought of AJA because they've been around for a long time.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Morgan_Moore on May 05, 2012, 01:59:59 pm
I have a Sound Devices audio recorder - its the only tool that I have apart from my D3 stills camera that I like

Not only the quality but all sorts of brilliance

- Pre Roll
-You cant power down while recording
-power management between onboard and offboard batts

Everything is designed better than your expectations

If their DATA recorders are in the same class you will have nothing but joy using it

Best

SamMM
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on May 18, 2012, 04:01:57 am
1/2 disclaimer and 1/2 apologies to Cooter about AF.

I've been trying a little more AF on small crane config both with the Panasonic and could get my hands on a Sony.
Different systems, different prestations, same plastic-fragile feeling toy on both lenses. Sony was the kit I guess and Pana the 14mm.

Cooter is right, it's usable. Far from being perfect though but it will be highly desirable that engineers keep going developping a reliable AF suitable for motion requirements.

I think we're not there yet. I find that there is a very annoying limitation(s) (for ex), that when they lock focus, there is often a slightly "search" before locking that can or can not be smooth.
Specially when subject to focus moves on the lens axis.
It's more a bet than anything else if it will be noticiable or not. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't so well but overall not ridiculous. It's easy to smell that the next generations will improve
and get each time closer.

It could be indeed that we end to use AF 90% of the time in a close future.

Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: Hywel on May 18, 2012, 04:20:10 am
I use AF on my Hasselblad 100% of the time. Sure, I have to focus then recompose, but the AF system is much more accurate than I am when shooting quickly (which is how I always have to shoot- if you have a model tied up in a stress position you HAVE to get the set shot quickly and get her out). So what about video?

AF worked sorta on my small chip camcorders, but not well enough for anything other than run-and-gun documentary and behind the scenes. For narrative stuff it was better to park the focus in approx the right place and rely of depth of field and occasional manual nudging to save the day.

Since moving to large sensor cams I've not had a great time with AF. The Canons didn't do it at all IIRC. The Panasonic AF100 did it, but very lens dependent. We used it mostly with a wide angle 14 mm lens for documentary/behind the scenes shots where everything was handheld, again using an increased depth of field to compensate. I might have had a better experience shooting with their dedicated 14-140 lens which was built for continuous AF, but that lens was far too slow optically for my needs.

The Scarlet has a system which doesn't work well right now, but which in my mind is the wave of the future. You can tap on the touchscreen to autofocus on that point, tap and drag to follow something as it moves and keep it in focus, and even prefocus on two spots and rack between them.

If this system was highly responsive and free from hunting I'd be using it all the time. It isn't, right now it is sluggish, the touch screen is a bit clunky. (I yearn for an iPad as my touch screen control so I can control focus remotely - something which I think is the wave of the future).

But yeh I can also see AF going from a useful tool in the armoury to the dominant way of shooting after another generation or two of development. Even now, with the right camera/lens/subject combo, it's useful.

Cheers, Hywel.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on May 18, 2012, 05:01:58 am
Absolutly Hywel !
It's very lens dependant and also that the lens developped - caution, according to marketing claims - for motion in mind are ridiculously slow in terms of aperture and not the best glasses in the world by far.
The problem, and only current solution right now, of increasing D.O.F and shooting wide makes the imagery easily video style, wich is something we don't want.

But in certain situations it's possible.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: bcooter on May 18, 2012, 05:15:32 am
The sony fs100 is plastic feeling and can look very video without a lot of trial and error and work.  It responds well to under exposure, hates being overexposed and has some of that cmos look where it picks up a lot of ambient color.

Given that the autofocus is pretty good, not perfect, subject dependent, but when your in a bind it works fast.

Note to Sony on their new 4k.

1.  Make the 4k part work out of the box, don't make anyone wait for it because nobody trusts waiting for anything in the digital world.

2.  Buy a RED ONE, and emulate the look of that file, not the Scarlet, not the FS100, not any panasonic . . .

3.  If you can't make a Raw 4k I don't care, just make it moveable, with a little better highlight response, less ambient bounce and get rid of that avchd (or whatever it's called) wrapper, so it plays on all computers quickly.

4.  develop a software suite where you can design your own looks and import them into the camera.

5.  Improve the autofocus.

6.  Come out with more e-mount lenses in f2 minimum.

That's it.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on May 18, 2012, 06:24:40 am

6.  Come out with more e-mount lenses in f2 minimum.


That's one of the big dilema IMO.

And it concerns both Panasonic and Sony. Their fast lens line is ultra limited. (if they have any so-called fast)

I've just ordered one of these "plastic" prime, the 14mm 2.5 only to use in AF config for certain purposes but wide lenses aren't normaly my C.O.T; I hardly shoot something outside 40-90mm.
The lens line catalog is very restricted in those brands.

I don't mind that much about the plastic, although it would be nice to have military grade construction, but most of those AF lenses are too slow.

If Sony and Pana want us to stop buying manual glasses on the used market or Zeiss cine stuff, they need to expand their lens offer and work both on AF and max aperture.
Also that if we switch to AF-MF, having a precise MF ring wouldn't be a luxury. Less fancy design, grey painting and marketing, more seriousnessss when it comes to lenses.
Because those are curently more suitable in the bag of a nice lady walking in the Croisette than on set.

AVCHD is also another plague indeed. So as 8 bits.
The problem of 8 bits is that it's almost impossible if you don't have a B option to use those cameras in serious assignements with confidence. That's not tolerable. The banding issue can easily ruin a footage.
Truth that it only occurs in limited circunstances and we end to learn when and can avoid or minimize it, but when it does occur it's painfull.
I wouldn't care too much to have raw, but yes more  than 8 bits.

About the software suite (oh no...not another suite please, an integrated all-in-one, please please...), to design our looks and import them, that would be great.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: fredjeang on May 18, 2012, 07:22:59 am
Also, I wanted to ad a quick note on lightworks. Sorry for deviating the thread, but in this thread a lot of concepts have been mixed.

I want to give a chance to this software for several reasons.
So far I'm not advanced enough to report but I'll do it on this forum once I master it enough. The fact is that if it does well what they pretend with Prores, Red files, DNxHD...it will be a serious player.

I mean serious. It's a very powerfull tool. Not surprised famous editors are currently working with it.

As an example, in a project you got rooms. Well, those rooms are literally like physical rooms. You have an edited sequence and graded it. You can access other rooms and make instant clones of the raw sequence but with different gradings, different cuts proposals and you can display instantanously to the client each variation.  Work on one without affecting others, access instantanously a room or another. That, I like it! Those rooms aren't like sequences copies but entire proper workspaces, of the same project. I've been doing just that yesterday and beleive me, it's incredibly flexible and usefull.

Moving footage, cuts, in short: material, to another project is also immediate. No wait.

Also, I've noticed that being open source, there are people currently working on filters, looks etc...and it will grow. You can install those in the software, for free. Instead of having a commercial dev that not necesarly answer to people's needs but impose their road-map, proper users-developpers will take the features in their hands and it's way more powerfull IMO, at least on the paper; let's see how it goes.  We'll not be on bondage anymore of commercial wars and marketing priorities that rarely benefit the users but tend to complicate everything and close systems.

Oh yeah, and almost for free...

If Lightworks really becomes what it looks it can be, I think that this is the future.

Keep an eye this end of the month when they'll release the pro version with all the commercial codecs enabled.

They will release a Mac and Linux version soon.
Title: Re: New 4k Sony
Post by: BJNY on May 24, 2012, 04:33:37 am
http://philipbloom.net/2012/05/22/240brighton/