Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Pro Business Discussion => Topic started by: JonathanRimmel on March 28, 2012, 05:48:33 pm
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I was asked today if I would shoot a coworker's wedding. Usually I would stay away from such a high stress job, but I cannot help but feel somewhat compelled to do it. Although, I have not yet agreed.
So I am looking for some general advice as well as some specifics such as:
How much and in what way do I charge?
What do I charge for?
What kind of general rules "must" I follow?
I am not really in my comfort zone here, so I am rather at a loss as to all of this. Any help would be more than greatly appreciated.
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coworker? My advice say no.
Its never worth the money to jeopardize your job, I would never work with family or friends.
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DITTO
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Working at a university, I get these requests all the time, from coworkers whose kids are getting married, to students who are marrying after graduation. Weddings are a highly specialized field, and require experience and a certain kind of personality and temperament. Even as a long time professional photographer, I would feel very uncomfortable shooting a wedding, as it is not my specialty. So I provide these folks with my personal congratulations and a list of great local wedding photographers.
I would never say yes to this sort of request, and *certainly* never do this for money. Bad idea in so many ways, sorry.
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Wedding photography is whole different ballgame to any other genre.
My advice is not to take the gig even if you are interested in wedding photography.
The chances of a serious fallout here if things do not go according to plan are high.
Recommend a good known wedding photographer. Perhaps you may be able work as the assistant if the gut or gal is agreeable.
Regards
Tony Jay
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This is all very accurate advice: don't do it.
Rob C
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Don't do it for money unless you are: a glutton for stress, interested in ruining a working relationship, interested in possibly creating a need to find a new job etc. Now, if you can get the ok to shoot for free just for the experience, with no promises of any type, then go for it.
If you could work out an agreement with a pro wedding Photog to let you second shoot, then that would be a win win.
I also do not do business with close friends or family. Either I do it for free/as a gift, or I do not do it. I do not even charge them for prints etc. I will give them a cd of the images and a recommendation of a good place to purchase prints if they are wanting more than I wish to donate.
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Just say No!
Cheers,
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I also do not do business with close friends or family. Either I do it for free/as a gift, or I do not do it.
This is very good advice. As soon as you agree to do something for money - say, shoot a wedding, or a family portrait - you are no longer a friend, you're a vendor. You're no longer doing them a favor, you're overcharging them for your crappy work that plenty of other people will do for less money. :)
I'm constantly shooting photos of my friends, or their kids, or my nieces and nephews, and I just email the files. It's fun, keeps my skills sharp, and makes my friends happy.
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How good are you at handling groups of people? Skills like public speaking or crowd control are as important as knowing how to use your camera. If you don't feel confident with either the people side or the photography, then just offer to take pictures but not as "the photographer". But if you feel you can do both sides, don't rule it out. Just set your colleague's expectations, plan very thoroughly, get someone allocated to help assemble groups (a brother in the military can be ideal), and do it as a friend. Make sure they know how much PP you do, too. They'll know how much to pay you.
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I'll echo what others have said - think about if this is something that you really want to do and if you decide to go through with it, consider shooting it for free with no expectations. And if you do shoot it for money, charge a decent amount (like $1,500 or more).
I am a full time architectural photographer but I have photographed three weddings for money. Here's what I do:
I set clear expectations via in-person and email conversation beforehand with the client. I have a written agreement that both bride and groom must sign that further outlines all expectations for the event. For example: I do not use flash at any time so images are going to be grainy. I deliver between 60-70 final images on a DVD and that's it. I don't do organized formal wedding party portraits (bride with all the uncles etc) but am fine with impromptu portraits during the event. I don't do prints or albums. I include a good limits of liability paragraph: I am not responsible for missed shots, lost image files, etc etc. And full payment is due before I start shooting.
I think the most important thing is to communicate with your co-worker so that everyone is on the same page regarding their expectations for the event as well as yours.
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If you don't feel confident with either the people side or the photography, then just offer to take pictures but not as "the photographer".
That's exactly what I've done in similar situations. It's enabled me to enjoy the wedding and to contribute to the memories without the pressure of thinking all the time of the burden that I'd be carrying if the whole album depended on me.
Jeremy
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Thank you for all the advice everyone. I am still a bit on the fence, but I am thinking I probably will decline. (I just how to think of how I will word it)
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My stock reply to such requests:
"I love you like a brother/sister but asking me to shoot a wedding is like asking me to gargle with razor blades."
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"Wedding photography is a highly specialized field, and I'm not comfortable shooting such an important occasion without the relevant experience."
Repeat as necessary, no further explanation needed.
Really, this is like asking your brother in law the tax attorney to defend you in court on a death penalty homicide case.
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I feel that last analogy verges on the ridiculous. There are of course specialists who are particularly skilled, but I bet many of us have also attended events where "the professional photographer" has been short on interpersonal skills or turned in technically-deficient or cliche-ridden pictures. But on the whole it's not too specialist. If you are good with groups of people, calm and organized, and know what you're doing with a camera, then you can do a fine job. No doubt plenty of us non-specialists have successfully shot weddings. But if you don't feel 100% about it, then enjoy the event instead, be a guest and take some pictures without any responsibility.
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I feel that last analogy verges on the ridiculous.
Um, you've maybe heard of argumentum ad absurdum? No? Well, there it is.
Yes, any competent photographer should be able to shoot a wedding and get decent photos. I've shot several, and got decent photos. Maybe even good photos. That's a far cry from agreeing to shoot a wedding for a coworker for money being a good idea. It's truly not -- even for an experienced wedding shooter, in my personal opinion.
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If you still are considering doing the wedding, I suggest you check out the wedding sub forum at dgrinhttp://www.dgrin.com/forumdisplay.php?f=49 (http://www.dgrin.com/forumdisplay.php?f=49).
Les
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I've always heard that everyone hates their wedding photographer and their divorce lawyer. I had a colleague once describe something as being "as dangerous as shooting a wedding."
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Look on the bright side: book the divorce shoot too, and make it a double-whammy. Your accountant will love you, as will the tax inspector; what can you lose, other than your neck?
Rob C
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I am curious. Other than this kind of shoot being a "once in a lifetime, miss it and your screwed" type thing, why are so many photographers against shooting them?
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The bride and her mother have been browsing wedding photography websites for weeks or months by now and have developed favorites. They already know what their photos will look like before they're shot. The degree to which the actual photos fall short of the ones in their imagination is the multiplier for how much they hate you after it's done.
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The bride and her mother have been browsing wedding photography websites for weeks or months by now and have developed favorites. They already know what their photos will look like before they're shot. The degree to which the actual photos fall short of the ones in their imagination is the multiplier for how much they hate you after it's done.
Wow, that strongly illustrates a reason to stay away from wedding photography...
I suppose I should know better, when it was the groom that asked me, not the bride.
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Look on the bright side: book the divorce shoot too, and make it a double-whammy. Your accountant will love you, as will the tax inspector; what can you lose, other than your neck?
Rob C
That's stretching things a bit? :)
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The bride and her mother have been browsing wedding photography websites for weeks or months by now and have developed favorites. They already know what their photos will look like before they're shot. The degree to which the actual photos fall short of the ones in their imagination is the multiplier for how much they hate you after it's done.
:D Delightful :D Funniest comment I’ve read here for a while…
….and sooooooooooooooo very true!
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Most of the advice above is good. I shoot both commercial, portrait and wedding photography, however, if you've never shot a wedding, or portraits for that matter, then taking on a wedding for the first time is an incredible undertaking and responsibility. Of course, it really depends on what the client is expecting too. If they're expecting 'snap-shots' that's one thing, but if they are expecting decent wedding photographs that could be something all together different.
I always say you need to be three things to be a wedding photographer... the technician that knows their equipment inside out and has backup equipment for when things go wrong, the artist to capture not only beautiful images, but emotional ones as well, and a psychologist to handle the stressed out bride, mothers and guests. John is right in this respect that you need to be able to communicate 'effectively' with people, usually people that you don't know, however, you also need to know how to pose or place people with a wide variety of body shapes, styles and heights in a flattering position so the groups don't look like a football team - like how to pose a tiny, petite bride beside her 250lb groom (or vice versa!).
The trend with recent wedding photography is a more casual and photojournalistic approach, however, the bride and groom are only two of the people interested in the photography. The family and guests in the parents or grand-parents generation are from a time when carefully posed and well executed portraits are preferred. And don't forget.. beauty is in the eye of the "check-book' holder! - and if the parents are footing the bill, you need to cater to their wants as well.
In summary... I would say RUN!
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I always say you need to be three things to be a wedding photographer... the technician that knows their equipment inside out and has backup equipment for when things go wrong, the artist to capture not only beautiful images, but emotional ones as well, and a psychologist to handle the stressed out bride, mothers and guests. John is right in this respect that you need to be able to communicate 'effectively' with people, usually people that you don't know, however, you also need to know how to pose or place people with a wide variety of body shapes, styles and heights in a flattering position so the groups don't look like a football team - like how to pose a tiny, petite bride beside her 250lb groom (or vice versa!).
All good stuff, Mike. But you neglected to mention *ethanol*, the application of which strains some weddings almost to breaking point. ;D
OK if you’re a guest, and can enjoy the action like some extra-terrestrial anthropologist, but the photographer can get caught in the middle; something as simple as “… no way am I going to be in the same photo as that bitch”, etc.
I stopped doing weddings over a decade ago—too stressful.
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I stopped doing weddings over a decade ago—too stressful.
I started doing absolutely anything when I hung out my shingle; soon, very soon, realising that jacking all the trades was never going to get me anywhere, the first angle I closed was weddings. I hated them, the people with whom I had to deal (obviously, as a newbie I got the dregs of the trade), the places I had to go and the bullshit that came when seeking money.
Years later, I was asked by my muse, my favourite model of all time, if I'd shoot her wedding. She was 'society' in as big as it got in Scotland. Though I knew all about her, her best angles, the lot, I turned her down. Why? Because I knew it wasn't my scene and that I didn't want to blow our relationship by turning out stuff that the two families wouldn't like very much. I passed, and I think we were both relieved by that.
Rob C
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Years later, I was asked by my muse, my favourite model of all time, if I'd shoot her wedding. She was 'society' in as big as it got in Scotland. Though I knew all about her, her best angles, the lot, I turned her down. Why? Because I knew it wasn't my scene and that I didn't want to blow our relationship by turning out stuff that the two families wouldn't like very much. I passed, and I think we were both relieved by that.
Rob C
Any happy snaps from the sidelines?
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Any happy snaps from the sidelines?
You gotta be joking! What's to be happy with your best model getting wed, almost inevitably embracing the mother syndrome some time along the way and a whole, beautiful, working relationship consigned to rot in the dud wet prints bin? This was a muse for which I mourned...
Rob C
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I am fairly certain now I will turn this one down.
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I am fairly certain now I will turn this one down.
Like in wee bit pregnant?
;-)
Rob C
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I am fairly certain now I will turn this one down.
We knew you could do it!! (turn it down that is) ;)
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I am amazed at how specialized wedding shooting has become. I get a pro photog magazine from time to time that specializes in weddings and I'm blown away with all the neat services offered to the pros, from custom album printing and web-based image delivery, to shooting equipment. My daughter was married in Sedona, AZ a few years ago and the pros who shot her wedding did a spectacular job with all the bells and whistles.
I do very well in my own niches and sell lots of products but I could NEVER compete with a good wedding shooter in either technique or after-shooting products. Nor could I compete psychologically -- handholding the various factions bound to show up drunk or otherwise repulsive.
It's surprising how many decent photographers get lured into this arena and get eaten alive.
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There is no doubt that wedding photography is a very specialized niche.
Many exceptional image makers will never make it in this genre because there is so much more to success in this area than merely shooting good pics.
I have immense respect for those that do succeed.
Regards
Tony Jay
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I am amazed at how specialized wedding shooting has become. I get a pro photog magazine from time to time that specializes in weddings and I'm blown away with all the neat services offered to the pros, from custom album printing and web-based image delivery, to shooting equipment. My daughter was married in Sedona, AZ a few years ago and the pros who shot her wedding did a spectacular job with all the bells and whistles.
I do very well in my own niches and sell lots of products but I could NEVER compete with a good wedding shooter in either technique or after-shooting products. Nor could I compete psychologically -- handholding the various factions bound to show up drunk or otherwise repulsive.
It's surprising how many decent photographers get lured into this arena and get eaten alive.
The only way I would want to do it is if I could do it the way someone such as Jeff Ascough does: have a highly distinctive style for which people seek you out and not try to be all things to all people or cater to clients' stylistic whims. Thing is, even if you can start out with a strong, individual style, you probably still need to pay your dues doing routine wedding work or some other kind of work, photographic or otherwise, until you can establish yourself enough to sell only your style.
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Sometimes you can't even save a friendship by saying no. I was once asked by a close friend to shoot her wedding, I told her that I don't really do weddings (I shoot fashion & advertising), but If she REALLY wanted me to I'd do it and give her a good price too. I asked how much she wanted to spend and she told me she was expecting me to do it for free, but she'd give me 300$. Of course I respectfully declined and said for that kind of money I'd rather not have the stress and just enjoy the wedding as a regular guest instead. That's when she went completely ballistic, yelling and cussing, calling me every word in the book. Needless to say I never talked to her again.
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That's when she went completely ballistic, yelling and cussing, calling me every word in the book. Needless to say I never talked to her again.
Wow! Think of all the fun you would have had after the wedding when she didn't like your work.
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Several problems with being a nice guy and agreeing to shoot a wedding. First you have no experience in shooting a wedding so you do not know the flow and cannot anticipate what you need to be ready to do and when before it is too late to do it. Second you are not likely to have the equipment as in two ISO 3200 capable bodies, lenses from 24-200mm at f2.8, two high output strobes and ideally with battery packs, a lighting solution for large group shots with up to 40 people in each grouping and needing to take 10-20 sets of shots in under 30 minutes.
Anyone who wants to invest the time and money should start out shooting a half dozen weddings with an experienced wedding photography as the primary. Then you can see what they use and how and how they manage the flow of the day and how they manage the people throughout the day and people are stressed and do need to be managed by the photographer.
It is also very hard work. For me it is a 10-12 hour day with at best 15 minutes of down time to wolf down something to eat and get a glass of water. And you are on your feet or your knees the entire time which is also tiring even if the weather is not hot and humid.
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Well as a wedding photographer (95%) of my income....I can safely say, so far great advice everyone.
The most stated reason folks shy away from weddings, is stress. Not just your own (from lack of experience, fear of not delivering as well as you wanted, the unknow etc) but the stress on all the other major players. Brides of course, but MOB's are the biggest offenders. Followed closely by wedding planners (or more accurately wannabe wedding planners). Then there are the other vendors...the dj want this....the banquet mgr wants this... the light is going away fast....
then after that, you have all these images to pp. Shot mostly in mixed light sources. If you were smart/experienced enough, you probably lit the reception yourself, but other times of the day you just cant do that....so...
should i continue?
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I have never shot a co-workers or close friends wedding. I have shot numerous acquaintances though (my friend knew a friends sisters brother that needed a photographer type deal)
The only problem I have ever had was at a wedding I was shooting for a girl I used to go to high school with (didn't even know we went to high school together) apparently she had a friend who was a 'professional' photographer taking shots as well. I didn't really mind, I just kept doing my thing until after the ceremony we were grabbing some quick shots at the alter with just the bride and groom. I had about 15 mins to clear the room for the hotel workers to come in and clear it. The 'professional' photographer friend started directing and posing them >:(
I kept my cool though, took a few shots and after we blew our time limit out of the water I explained we needed to move on as we are on a strict deadline
the other 'professional' photographer was pretty pissed but bride was happy and cool so whatever
I was pulling my hair out after that though
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Aloha,
OMG I did one, For the director of a gallery that I exhibited with, I turned the guy down like 10 times,and even recommended a friend of mine that does them for a living; then I finally agreed to to do it free of charge...
It's a lot like work!
No fun at all, a complete waste of my joy when holding my camera in my hand.
Once the wedding over, you have to go find another one, no weddings no money, I know a very successful girl that gets flown all over to shoot weddings and has developed a great wedding photography business, she hates it, always chasing the next wedding and stressing all the time.
The attached image will bring me six figures, drove to the location a bunch of times over a period of a month, and waited for it, no stress...
I have a very great amount of respect for anyone that does wedding photography for a living!