Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Roscolo on March 15, 2012, 02:53:39 am
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So, I bought a QP Calibration card 202, and finally received it. Installed, and it works. At least it makes the Camera Profile. But I do not see the Camera Profile under Camera Calibration in Raw 6.6. I open a file that I want to apply the Camera Profile to, and all I have are the regular selections under Camera Calibration: Standard, Faithful, etc.
The QP Calibration software puts the profile in Computer/C/Users/Username/AppData/Roaming/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles
and in their one page instruction "manual" it says:
"2) Open the file in QPcalibration.
3) Generate a profile by clicking "Calculate", give it a name and "Save". The profile will automatically be saved in correct folder.
4) Open Adobe Photoshop or Lightroom. The new profile will now appear in the "Camera Calibration" option.
5) Apply the profile to pictures taken with the same camera in similar light."
which I have done, but the new profile, while it is created and saved as outlined above, does not show up in Adobe Camera Raw.
Sent them an email and waiting to hear back, but since they have no support forum on their website and emails prior to purchase went unanswered for days, hoping someone here can point me in the right direction.
Running Windows 7 64bit, Photoshop CS5, Adobe Camera Raw 6.6 (also didn't work in whatever previous version of Camera Raw I had).
tx
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I downloaded the trial version, made a shot of QP card from the screen just to test it, generated .dcp file and it is working... I put .dcp in C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles (replace Administrator w/ your user name)
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I downloaded the trial version, made a shot of QP card from the screen just to test it, generated .dcp file and it is working... I put .dcp in C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles (replace Administrator w/ your user name)
Thanks. What Operating System are you using? I'm using Windows 7 64bit, and that's not the file structure of Win 7 (no "documents and settings"). Sounds more like XP. Of course I still haven't heard from QP Card people.
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Thanks. What Operating System are you using? I'm using Windows 7 64bit, and that's not the file structure of Win 7 (no "documents and settings"). Sounds more like XP. Of course I still haven't heard from QP Card people.
W7/64...
(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7036/dcpf.jpg)
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Look in my original post. My QP Camera Profiles are being created and placed in: Computer/C/Users/Username/AppData/Roaming/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles
I also see the standard Camera Raw Profiles there as well. I see the standard Camera Raw Profiles in ACR, but no QP Camera profiles.
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Documents and Settings was inaccessible. Windows 7 too much like Vista. Went through this procedure here and took ownership of all files and folders:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-files/cdocuments-and-settings-is-not-accessible/fbad858c-42d3-491f-813b-63b8cb3bf21f?tab=MoreHelp
Still no Camera Profiles in ACR. Uninstalled and reinstalled QP Calibration. Procedure for reading the QP Card and making the profile works. Can see the profiles in the CameraProfiles folder, but NOPE...still no QP Camera Profiles visible or selectable in Adobe Camera Raw. And still no response from the manufacturer. Very disappointing.
Don't know the issue, but right now I would say QP Card Calibration system is not compatible with either Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, or Photoshop CS5, or Adobe Camera Raw 6.6, or some combination of the above factors. Booted into Windows XP 32bit, and the same problem also happens there under Photoshop CS5. Does not work.
Guess I should have stuck with the Passport Colorchecker. At least it worked. :) Don't have any more time to work on this right now, but I have another system running Photoshop CS4, Windows XP 32bit. I'll install the QP software on that machine and see if it works with CS4.
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Documents and Settings was inaccessible. Windows 7 too much like Vista. Went through this procedure here and took ownership of all files and folders:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-files/cdocuments-and-settings-is-not-accessible/fbad858c-42d3-491f-813b-63b8cb3bf21f?tab=MoreHelp
Still no Camera Profiles in ACR. Uninstalled and reinstalled QP Calibration. Procedure for reading the QP Card and making the profile works. Can see the profiles in the CameraProfiles folder, but NOPE...still no QP Camera Profiles visible or selectable in Adobe Camera Raw. And still no response from the manufacturer. Very disappointing.
Don't know the issue, but right now I would say QP Card Calibration system is not compatible with either Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, or Photoshop CS5, or Adobe Camera Raw 6.6, or some combination of the above factors. Booted into Windows XP 32bit, and the same problem also happens there under Photoshop CS5. Does not work.
Guess I should have stuck with the Passport Colorchecker. At least it worked. :) Don't have any more time to work on this right now, but I have another system running Photoshop CS4, Windows XP 32bit. I'll install the QP software on that machine and see if it works with CS4.
check that camera model/id is correct inside your .dcp file... ACR/LR will not display profiles if there is some mismatch... if yiou do not mind post your .dcp file and which model is it... I can test on my machine if your profile is working.
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Something is definitely up with the QP system. I just installed the Xrite Passport software, and pulled up an image I shot with the Passport Colorchecker in it. Created and named a profile.
The Passport Profile shows in Photoshop CS5 in ACR right where it's supposed to be.
When I save the profile with the Xrite Passport system, I can see the profiles are saved to the exact SAME FOLDER as the QP Card system, I can see the QP Camera Profiles right there. Difference? Xrite Passport works, you can see the profiles immediately in Photoshop Camera Raw. QP Calibration, can't see the profiles in Photoshop Camera Raw. Even tried renaming one, thought maybe the file name was too long. Nope. No change.
Seems pretty clear to me that QP Calibration is not compatible with Photoshop CS5, certainly not if you just follow their instructions. Doesn't work. Xrite Passport DOES WORK.
Dang it! Why didn't I keep the Passport Colorchecker? Guess I'll be ordering another one.
Will still try the QP Calibration system on CS4.
I do note that the Xrite Passport software is a 68mb download. The QP Calibration software is only a 7mb download. Looks like the QP software hasn't been updated since 2010. Looks like they need to update or something. Doesn't reflect well on their product when the competition works easy-peasy, and QP's is a no-go.
Have no idea why Photoshop doesn't see / use the QP Camera Profiles, but there they are right next to the Passport Profiles. One works, the other doesn't. Go figure.
Here's one of the .dcp files I created with QP Calibration. I left the name exactly as the software creates it. Renaming the file to a shorter name did not help either. Can't emphasize enough, it's right there next to the .dcp I just created with Xrite Passport, that has a generic name of "passporttest" and only the Xrite is visible in ACR. Weird.
THANK YOU for taking the time to screw around with this!
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as I told you - it is the camera model
you need to decompile .dcp to .xml and use
<UniqueCameraModelRestriction>Canon EOS 500D</UniqueCameraModelRestriction>
instread of T1i
then compile .xml to .dcp
and it will work... I just did
PS: Sandy Mc made a tool for us = http://dcptool.sourceforge.net/Introduction.html
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as I told you - it is the camera model
you need to decompile .dcp to .xml and use
<UniqueCameraModelRestriction>Canon EOS 500D</UniqueCameraModelRestriction>
instread of T1i
then compile .xml to .dcp
and it will work... I just did
PS: Sandy Mc made a tool for us = http://dcptool.sourceforge.net/Introduction.html
So, the QP Calibration software, as is, definitely will not work? The tool you linked to says:
"In order to be able to use dcpTool, you must be comfortable with using command line utilities on either the Mac or PC. In addition, if you want to make edits to a profile, you must be comfortable with XML, and understand version 1.2 of the Adobe DNG specification in detail. "
That is not me. Is there another user-friendly tool that would accomplish the same thing? It's not that I'm opposed to learning the tool. Maybe there is a video tutorial somewhere (haven't looked yet). But frustrating to buy something that the whole purpose of paying money for their product is to have the profiles automatically generated and working without having to customize each and every one.
Also, for DCP Tool is says:
"System Requirements
•Windows XP or Vista"
I'm running Windows 7 x64.
EDIT: sent another email to QP Card. This seems to be a bug or naming problem they need to fix in their software. I'll post what I hear from them. Lesson: Looks like I should have just kept the Passport Colorchecker. Live and learn. And spend.
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EDIT: sent another email to QP Card. This seems to be a bug or naming problem they need to fix in their software. I'll post what I hear from them. Lesson: Looks like I should have just kept the Passport Colorchecker. Live and learn. And spend.
well... it starts w/ Canon... worse than EOS 500D (Rebel T1i / Kiss X3 Digital) naming conventions are only Pentax escapades like "*ist D"
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well... it starts w/ Canon... worse than EOS 500D (Rebel T1i / Kiss X3 Digital) naming conventions are only Pentax escapades like "*ist D"
I hear you. But, that is the responsibility of folks charging $$$ for Calibration software to keep it up to date. If Xrite Passport has their software updated and functional, QP Card can too. This isn't some obscure camera model we're talking about. Canon EOS are probably the most popular cameras on the planet. Surely QP has to be aware of this problem. If not, they are now.
Is it possible to rename the profile and "fix" the camera naming problem using Adobe DNG Profile Editor instead of the command line DCPtool? I have found good, easy to understand step-by-step tutorials for the Adobe DNG Profile Editor. Not so for the DCPtool. I don't really know much about this.
tx
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Tried following the "usage" instructions for DCP tool. I type a command line prompt "dcptool -d filename.dcp" as instructed, and I get - " 'dcptool' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file "
Don't know if this is because I'm using Win 7 x64, and dcpTool homepage says dcpTool is only for XP and Vista.
Clicking dcptool.exe opens a window that only stays visible for about 1/4 second.
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to make it simple for you - put everything in one directory (see my screenshot above as an example of what is the content) - start command line - navigate to that directory and
1) dcpTool.exe -d "Canon EOS REBEL T1i test-six.dcp" "Canon EOS REBEL T1i test-six.xml"
2) edit .xml file
3) dcpTool.exe -c "Canon EOS REBEL T1i test-six.xml" "Canon EOS REBEL T1i test-six.dcp"
done.
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Tried. Don't have much experience using Command Prompt. When I navigate to the Directory, I don't see all the same directories that I can see in Windows. I even created a folder directly in my C: drive to put the dcpTool windows files and the test profile into, and I still can't see even the folder in Command Prompt. All I see are Contacts, Desktop, Documents, etc. User friendly this ain't!
Thanks for the help. I'll try to make this work later. Already cost me bookoos of time and probably a couple of customers now. Here's hoping QP is willing to fix their software. Even if I ever manage to get the dcpTool to work (and I can't find a video tutorial or any tutorial anywhere for dcpTool), I would hate to have to go through this process for each and every camera profile.
UPDATE: OK. Figured out the command prompt navigation. Followed your instructions...BINGO...there's the profile. They obviously need to fix the QP software, but until they do, this will work.
While scrambling around last night, I did stumble across the dcpTool page, but I do not think I need to tell you, that without your help I NEVER would have figured this out. I told my wife I would get it sorted on LL long before I would get a response from QP. As much time as I've spent on this, you saved me at least 3x that much more time I would have spent..........THANK YOU! I mean a BIG THANK YOU!
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UPDATE: QP Calibration saw my issue, and within 48 hours they created an updated version of the software. PROBLEM SOLVED. No need for any of that dcpTool stuff anymore.
So now I can finally answer the question how the QP Card stacks up against the Passport Colorchecker. Night and day. QP system blows the Passport away. The Passport adds about +10 too much saturation right off the bat. QP system has several profiling options. Tried it the first time on reproducing a particularly challenging watercolor painting. Created several camera profiles using every option on the QP menu. Using Camera Profile created with settings at "Contrast Curve - High, Profile Smoothing - Normal, Gamut Matching - Medium" the FIRST proof was ALMOST a perfect match. Meaning 95% of my customers I could have printed and delivered the job. This particular customer is very picky and wanted a PERFECT match in some subtle blues, and I had to take only about 2 points of magenta and 2 points of yellow out of the section of that section of the painting and it was a PERFECT MATCH. The rest of the painting was a perfect match on the first proof!
I will leave all of the above thread unedited, but in the end, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND QP Card Calibration system. Particularly for my purposes, art repro, it is light years better than the Passport. That it is half the cost of the Passport is the icing on the cake.
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So now I can finally answer the question how the QP Card stacks up against the Passport Colorchecker. Night and day. QP system blows the Passport away. The Passport adds about +10 too much saturation right off the bat.
Thanks for the report, very interesting final report. I've ordered a QP card to try for myself.
It would be interesting to know why the QP software gives you a much better result. Maybe the data for their chart is more accurate ? I've read that the CC24s used by DNG editor & Passport can be rather more variable than one might hope and those variations might lead to incorrect profiles being built.
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Thanks for the report, very interesting final report. I've ordered a QP card to try for myself.
It would be interesting to know why the QP software gives you a much better result. Maybe the data for their chart is more accurate ? I've read that the CC24s used by DNG editor & Passport can be rather more variable than one might hope and those variations might lead to incorrect profiles being built.
Not sure. To be clear, though, I think the Passport does what it advertises. It's not marketed to people like reproducing fine art. And as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, if I had watched the Passport training video first, where they show how it will "make your photos pop" I likely would have passed it over. But using the Passport got me to the QP Card, so that's how it goes. You have to try something to see if it fits your needs. The QP software has more pre-set options that are really accurate. And for a little more money they have a plug-in to adjust the camera profiles. I have not used it, and right now I don't see a need for it for me, but it's there if you need it, and it's free for a few days so you can try it out.
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It would be interesting to know why the QP software gives you a much better result.
I haven't tried the QP card and software but I expect that the reason for the difference is mainly due to the the intent of the software designer. The Xrite Passport software, the Adobe DNG Profile Editor, and the default ACR/Lightroom camera profiles aim to produce 'pleasing' colours from images of real-world subjects (what most photographers shoot) - they do not try to produce accurate reproductions of images (a much less frequent subject); it would appear that the QP software, at least with some of the possible settings, does seek to produce accurate reproductions.
Part of the difference between the two types of subjects is that real-world subjects tend to have a much wider dynamic range than artworks or other images and the Xrite and Adobe software attempts to provide pleasing colour over this wider range, although their results are different and their relative merit can depend on the subject and the photographer's preferences.
I would be interested if anyone has experience of using the QP card and software with real-world subjects (not reproduction) and how well the results compare with the Xrite or Adobe profiling solutions.
Regards
Nigel
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There is an explanation of the color patches structure:
http://www.qpcard.com/en_b2c/colors-on-card
It could be that the number of different pigments is higher than used in the Color Checker Passport and the algorithms more sophisticated. If I recall it correctly there were 12 pigments used in the original Color Checker card but with variations in the pigments over the period they are produced. Whether the Passport has that many I do not know. Babelcolor had some pages on the subject and there were threads on the Colorsync list:
http://www.babelcolor.com/main_level/ColorChecker.htm
Not totally satisfied with my CC PP I tried to order at QP but something went wrong with the VAT number registration. Did report that to them.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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I tried to order at QP but something went wrong with the VAT number registration.
Were you expecting the VAT to be automatically removed ? It wasn't for me, but it's not enough to be worth bothering about.
I'm just very curious to see how the profiles it delivers compare to the CC24 ones.
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Were you expecting the VAT to be automatically removed ? It wasn't for me, but it's not enough to be worth bothering about.
I'm just very curious to see how the profiles it delivers compare to the CC24 ones.
I actually expected that, I had a similar function running before my Canvas Wraps became shareware. The QP purchase went wrong in a typical way, I had the VAT number added and did see that the sum still contained VAT but I thought the extra money would not be something to bother about, then it got stuck at the Paypal side, I guess due to the VAT inconsistencies. Then I tried to create an account first with the VAT number included and I could not get it passed. Then I thought if you have that function it should work and reported that flaw. The QP people at least try to do it correctly. Xara Ltd in the UK, now part of the German company Magix AG, has over the past 20 years never delivered its software (+upgrades) at 0% VAT to companies in Europe. Not just on downloads but also on CDs + manuals through snailmail.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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copy of my reply to other discussions...( I know this is against rules etc... but....)
Sent an email to QPcard to ask about their product referring to discussion on this site.
specifically I asked about capturing the right data for original artwork as compared to photos...
below is their second email... I will be buying one of their charts as I find passport colours too bright/gaudy in colours.. ( or is it me?)
Hi!
Lars already wrote a few things, but I though that some things were maybe still a bit unclear.
1) 203 is most probably better for you, since the 202 is slightly more sensitive to specular reflections. The 202 IS larger and easier to incorporate in larger works though, so as long as you have a reasonable control over lighting angles (and I guess you do, since you're into art-repro) 202 should not be a problem in your case.
2) The exposure has to meet those requirements:
-no colors overexposed in the raw file. When you open a file, no "blinkies" should be seen in the raw converter
-not severely underexposed. If you can add more than +2Ev exposure without getting blowing the "white" patch, you've probably lost some profiling accuracy.
There's a +/- 1Ev "window" of optimal exposure for the software to work with, and generally this is not very hard to satisfy. It WORKS with -3Ev exposure too, but the result is less accurate.
For your type of work (art-repro, of which I have done my fair bit...) often the exposure curve tends to mess things up a lot. The calibration gives you "accurate color" when everything is set to "zero", i.e no added contrast, no s-curve in the shadows and so on. When you add those things in, you oversaturate the midtones - where the exposure curve of a normal S-shaped type is at its' steepest.
steep curve - midtones - saturation increases
shallow curve - shadows and highlights - saturation decreases
When the RGB values has "one leg in the highlights and one leg in the midtones" you get a hue shift.
All of those things has to be adjusted for with human interaction, since there's no "perfect" exposure curve for any given type of art. But if you know the effect things have on your colors, they are quite easy to correct for. And when you have one good "oil, with semi-matte surface structure" setup, then this works for most pieces of similar qualities, regardless of artwork color constitution.
Feel free to as any more questions you might have, I will help you with setup of the calibration (via email of course...) :-) if you want some hints.
Greetings from Sweden
/Joakim Bengtsson
Senior developer, QPcard.com
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In regards to steep Curves increasing saturation, if you set the curve layer's blend mode to "Luminosity" rather than the default "Normal" you can add contrast without greatly affecting saturation.
Luminosity Curves all by themselves have a tendency to suck the life out of landscapes and such, but are well suited to art reproduction. FWIW I have sometimes found it useful to have separate "Luminosity" and "Saturation" blend mode Curves layers both affecting the same image layer, with often very different curve shapes.
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FWIW, in addition to using the QP202 since the beta QPCalibration for making dcp profiles, I have also incorporated the QP202 into camera profiling using Raw Photo Processor's built-in camera profiling feature (uses ArgyllCMS). The QP202 comes with descriptions of each patch in L*a*b, which you can enter directly into the text file (.cie) used by RPP's camera profiling module. Attached is a screenshot demonstrating the camera profiling operation in RPP. This flexibility permits both dcp profiles for ACR and icc profiles for everything else all from the same set of reference images - without having to use dcptool. THe RPP camera profile module comes with the GMB CC24 built in as well. If anyone is interested, I can shoot both the GMB CC24 and the QP202 and generate DCP and ICC and compare the results. My CC24 is pretty old, but still seems to do okay.
kirk
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QP Card is working on an option to create a ICC-profile as well as .dcp-profiles. This is an add-on that will cost you €10. It says on their web page that it will be coming soon, but this is a small company, so expect that it will take some time before they get around to create this add-on.
I've tested some of the different software that will create a .dcp profile. The results are very different, but I prefer the more gentle, not so saturated look that QP Card creates. Passport profiles were too saturated for my taste, and also had a problem with blue colors turning purple.