Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: Ch-Jaeger on March 06, 2012, 11:19:48 AM

Title: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Ch-Jaeger on March 06, 2012, 11:19:48 AM
Chris Marquardt from the Tips From The Top Floor podcast is reporting problems
When upgrading your catalogue to LR 4. He says that LR4 will revert all tone curve
Adjustments to a default.

See http://chrismarquardt.com/blog.php?id=1620266956854377999
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 06, 2012, 11:35:35 AM
The default settings between the two versions changed so that could be the problem or he doesn't quite understand the nuances? Because someone posts a Blog it doesn't automatically make him right?
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 06, 2012, 11:46:18 AM
The default settings between the two versions changed so that could be the problem or he doesn't quite understand the nuances? Because someone posts a Blog it doesn't automatically make him right?
Read the page before criticising the blogger.
It says this is happening with process 2010 images NOT converted to 2012.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 06, 2012, 12:34:16 PM
Lets get this right He opened his original process 2010 images in LR4. Surely then the new defaults will over ride the older settings? What about presets affecting the older settings? He himself is vague about the problem and it could be something he is doing wrong? More likely a user fault than Adobe's fault. Time will tell if Eric or Jeff replies to this post. Do you have an answer? ???
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 06, 2012, 12:50:19 PM
Lets get this right He opened his original process 2010 images in LR4. Surely then the new defaults will over ride the older settings?
No, I'd expect the settings to remain the same with the previous process.
Quote
Do you have an answer? ???
No, but I don't automatically assume user error. New program iterations have bugs, someone finds them first.
I don't use custom tone curves much, so I can't quickly find if the same is happening on my catalogue.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: richarddd on March 06, 2012, 12:51:48 PM
Lets get this right He opened his original process 2010 images in LR4. Surely then the new defaults will over ride the older settings?
Why would the new defaults override? If LR4 converts a LR3.6 catalog and I don't change any setting, I'd expect all of the old settings to stay the same.  I'd only expect new defaults if I change to the new 2012 process (or import a new picture).

What about presets affecting the older settings? He himself is vague about the problem and it could be something he is doing wrong? More likely a user fault than Adobe's fault. Time will tell if Eric or Jeff replies to this post. Do you have an answer? ???
Why would presets affect older settings?

The post doesn't seem vague to me.  What's unclear?
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 06, 2012, 01:13:15 PM
I've now had a good dig and found this problem in my catalogue too.
Custom curves seem to get discarded when upgrading to the LR4 catalogue, although process version remains at 2010.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: John R Smith on March 06, 2012, 01:18:28 PM
I've now had a good dig and found this problem in my catalogue too.
Custom curves seem to get discarded when upgrading to the LR4 catalogue, although process version remains at 2010.

That's bad news. Better check that nothing else gets scrambled on the way across.

John
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 06, 2012, 01:35:59 PM
Another unexpected thing is that the lens correction panel changes to the new format with the catalogue upgrade. With everything enabled by default.
I would have expected this to be part of the 2010 process and not change to the new format.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: richarddd on March 06, 2012, 02:11:13 PM
More reports of the tone curve problem
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/971408?tstart=0
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: John R Smith on March 06, 2012, 03:16:12 PM
Of course, nobody could test this in the LR4 Beta because it could not import an LR3 catalogue. All of my images use a custom tone curve, which is part of the presets I use for B/W conversion. So I think I will just wait a while for this one to sort itself out . . .

John
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: kencameron on March 06, 2012, 04:10:30 PM
What struck me in the blog post was this sentence:

"Now here's the same picture in Lightroom 4. The picture looks the same, the histogram doesn't."

If the picture indeed looks the same, as it seems to on screen, then apparently LR4 has preserved the changes he made to the original look of his image using the tone curve control, but has somehow changed the way in which the resulting tone curve is represented in the histogram.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: crabby on March 06, 2012, 07:54:44 PM
I haven't noticed any loss of Basic adjustments or Curves in my upgrade from LR3 to LR4, haven't had much time to look and compare. What I did find for some odd reason I lost all my Red Color Ratings. Star Ratings seem to be OK and other colors seem to be ok. I use red#6 to mark client selects which is obviously very important to track. Before I upgraded I went into LR3 and selected all my 2012 images (easy to do with my file structure) and then did a command save to update and save all the metadata. I was shooting for a client last week and yesterday and after the upgrade immediately noticed that there were no red selects that were there in LR3. I also use smart collections to track client picks and sure enough all those collections now show 0 images. Go figure. I use Blue #9 to pick possible portfolio material and that smart collection seems to be all there.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: FredT on March 06, 2012, 11:10:51 PM
What struck me in the blog post was this sentence:

"Now here's the same picture in Lightroom 4. The picture looks the same, the histogram doesn't."

If the picture indeed looks the same, as it seems to on screen, then apparently LR4 has preserved the changes he made to the original look of his image using the tone curve control, but has somehow changed the way in which the resulting tone curve is represented in the histogram.
They looked the same because LR4 was using the preview from LR3.  Once he went into Develop and the preview updated, the image changed.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 07, 2012, 04:11:52 AM
What I did find for some odd reason I lost all my Red Color Ratings.
Not seeing that here.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Costas on March 07, 2012, 05:13:18 AM
.......  I lost all my Red Color Ratings. Star Ratings seem to be OK and other colors seem to be ok. I use red#6 to mark client selects .....

I have not upgraded to LR4 yet, but under LR3, it identified label ratings from the description assigned to the label rating rather than colour for example. You can see that in the metadata of one of your red labelled images in the "label" setting. So if you change the red label rating description to match what it was in LR3, might be OK.

Library module/ metadata/ colour label sets


Edit - sorry used words that confused the colour rating with the star rating in my original post. Changed it now
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 07, 2012, 05:31:18 AM
My understanding of LR4 is that the sliders in Develop are different to the sliders in LR3. If you open an image that was developed in process 2010 in LR3 for further processing then there will be a change in the image? If what I am saying is true then it isn't a bug. Adobe should have warned about the possibility of this happening. They did warn buyers to back up their catalogues so if they did so then no harm done?
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Costas on March 07, 2012, 05:49:09 AM
I have not upgraded to LR4 yet, but under LR3, it identified label ratings from the description assigned to the label rating rather than colour for example. You can see that in the metadata of one of your red labelled images in the "label" setting. So if you change the red label rating description to match what it was in LR3, might be OK.

Library module/ metadata/ colour label sets


Edit - sorry used words that confused the colour rating with the star rating in my original post. Changed it now

Just tried that with the LR4 Beta and it works the same as LR3, uses the description stored in the metadata of the image to determine colour label, so description needs to match that in the colour label set.

Not upgrading my catalogue to LR4 until I understand the issue with custom tone curves reported here.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 07, 2012, 05:51:22 AM
My understanding of LR4 is that the sliders in Develop are different to the sliders in LR3. If you open an image that was developed in process 2010 in LR3 for further processing then there will be a change in the image? If what I am saying is true then it isn't a bug.
You're wrong.
When you open a process 2010 image in LR4 you get the same develop settings as in LR3.n, it's only when you update to process 2012 the options change to the new tool set. So the image rendering remains the same. This is a vital, rational and good way for the upgrade to work. If every image suddenly changed it might destroy years of work if the controls differed with the upgrade.
New images imported go straight to process 2012.

The difficulty here is that whilst most options work as expected, ie you open a process 2010 image you get the same options as LR3.n, but the lens calibration panel changes to the new process and format and custom tone curve is lost. The later may be critical if the user has used custom curves a lot and they aren't recoverable.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 07, 2012, 06:18:39 AM
Quote

You're wrong

Unquote

Nobody here can be certain of anything? So your remark is unjustified. Have you thought about what I stated with regards to the slider defaults in processing being different? Would it not be better to create new catalogues of images you want to import and leave the old ones as is. If needed they can be processed in LR3 or reprocessed in LR4. This isn't as big -imo - a problem as you think. Just think out of the box. :)
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 07, 2012, 06:40:03 AM
Quote

You're wrong

Unquote

Nobody here can be certain of anything? So your remark is unjustified.
No it's not, I've got the product here in front of me I can see what's happening. Have you got a copy of LR4 final installed and running with a legacy catalogue ? Are you seeing something different from what I've described ?
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 07, 2012, 06:44:32 AM
I have just backed up a catalogue from LR3 and opened it in LR4. On the image at the bottom right there is a symbol which
 I clicked and this warning came up.

New processing technology is available for this image. If you choose to update, please note that moderate to significant
visual changes may occur. It is recommended that you update only one image at a time until you are familiar with the new
 processing technology. You may elect to preserve the original settings by selecting Cancel.

I tried a screen capture but the warning couldn't be captured. I think this lets Adobe off the hook? I had also a default pre set In LR3
 which was different to LR4 and when I clicked on them in History then there were differences. BTW I was doing this before I read
your post.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 07, 2012, 06:54:26 AM
I think this lets Adobe off the hook?
No.
Things will change when updating to the new process, fair enough we all expect that and that's a choice we make when updating 2010 process images to the new process.
What's unacceptable is if LR4 is changing how process 2010 images look without the user having any choice. In the case of loosing tone curves that's pretty significant. Changing the lens lens calibration process is slightly different; It's unexpected, probably less significant, but there has been some criticism of the new CA tool that might make some users unhappy about having to use it in LR4.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 07, 2012, 07:48:04 AM
You have a choice. Don't do it. You can't have your cake and eat it? Back up your catalogues and update the copy and if it is to your liking accept it. What is it about the need to keep your original tones?They aren't set in stone. You can't please everyone all of the time and Adobe can't. Wait and see what Adobe does about it. I think they won't see it as a problem because they have warned users.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Ch-Jaeger on March 07, 2012, 07:56:56 AM
Its not about upgrading to the new processing.  If you choose to keep an image in the 2010 (LR3) version , LR4 will still change the rendering because it will alter the tone curve. Thats not expected behaviour and is a serious bug, not a feature. It completely destroyes any work previously made.

Imagine you have 100.000 Images and LR 4 will change all of them without the user having any choice. You have to re edit all of those images if you want them to look like you originally intended.

Your other choice is to start a new catalog with LR 4 and use 2 versions of LR simultaniously which is total BS worflow-wise.

I think what you miss is that you images change even if you click cancel on the warning message.

Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 07, 2012, 08:00:36 AM
Is Josh's post the answer?

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=63363.0
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 07, 2012, 08:04:42 AM
>I think what you miss is that you images change even if you click cancel on the warning message.

When you import an image is your history not available to revert to?

This thread in another Lightroom forum makes sense?

http://www.lightroomforums.net/showthread.php?14872-Lightroom-4-and-lightroom-3-on-same-computer
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 07, 2012, 08:34:26 AM
I went to one of the catalogues that was created By LR3.6 and clicked on the Ircat and open with ..... it wanted to open in LR4 with the upgrade warning. Went again to open with and browsed for Program files and located the exe for LR3.6 and it wanted to update the catalogue to LR4. It wouldn't open
in LR3.6. That is strange? When I start LR3.6 and a Ircat created with 3.6 then no problem.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 07, 2012, 08:39:17 AM
When you import an image is your history not available to revert to?
The history record is there of placing custom curve points, but the curve itself and where those points were has gone.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 07, 2012, 08:59:27 AM
That would be because that the new process is different? Are you using a neutral preset to begin processing as to the settings that Adobe set? There are obviously conflicts between the old and new and only Adobe can come out with a clear unambiguous statement outlining the "problem".
 Has XMP settings got something to do with it?
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 07, 2012, 09:10:48 AM
That would be because that the new process is different?
<sigh> The new process shouldn't impact on old images imported into LR4, what problems are you having grasping this concept ?
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 07, 2012, 09:17:21 AM
They are two different programs in reality with respect to processing? None of us has the answers so best to keep an open mind? As an experiment I tried to open in LR3.6 a catalogue created in LR4 and it wouldn't open it stating it was too new. If there was compatibility between the two then it should/could have opened it?
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 07, 2012, 09:39:14 AM
They are two different programs in reality with respect to processing?
Yes, that's the whole point.
Quote
As an experiment I tried to open in LR3.6 a catalogue created in LR4 and it wouldn't open it stating it was too new. If there was compatibility between the two then it should/could have opened it?
No, it a catalogue for the new program. That will have new options and the database format inside the file will be different to previous catalogue versions to accommodate the new features. There's no compatibility claimed for moving backwards from LR4 which is why it's important to have back ups and not just launch into upgrades without the ability to return to a known working set up.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 07, 2012, 10:03:55 AM
Then does that not apply when moving from LR3.6 to LR4?
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 07, 2012, 10:06:27 AM
Then does that not apply when moving from LR3.6 to LR4?
Yes, that's why you have to upgrade the 3x catalogue to version 4.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: crabby on March 07, 2012, 10:13:05 AM
Thanks Costas, that did the trick. For some reason LR4 defaulted to Bridge Color Labels whereas my LR3 was set to Lightroom Color Labels default.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Costas on March 07, 2012, 10:31:52 AM
Thanks Costas, that did the trick. For some reason LR4 defaulted to Bridge Color Labels whereas my LR3 was set to Lightroom Color Labels default.

You welcome - pleased the solution worked for you
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: madmanchan on March 07, 2012, 10:51:22 AM
There is an issue with custom point curves during the Lr 3 --> Lr 4 process not being preserved.  We (Adobe) are investigating that.  My understanding is that if you had left the point curve at its default value in Lr 3 (e.g., Medium Contrast for raw, Linear for non-raw), then there is no issue.

No other image settings are affected.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 07, 2012, 10:54:58 AM
My understanding is that if you had left the point curve at its default value in Lr 3 (e.g., Medium Contrast for raw, Linear for non-raw), then there is no issue.
That's my experience here.
Quote
No other image settings are affected.
Except the lens calibration settings are updated to the new process regardless. Not sure what impact that might have on some users.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: IanScicluna on March 07, 2012, 05:44:13 PM
Yes, that's why you have to upgrade the 3x catalogue to version 4.

And pray, how would you do that exactly?

I'm hoping Michael and Jeff will explain how to migrate the Lr3 catalogue to Lr4, but the
video files are taking ages to download.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 07, 2012, 05:49:02 PM
And pray, how would you do that exactly?
Just load it and follow the prompts.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: IanScicluna on March 07, 2012, 05:58:14 PM
Thanks Rhossydd, but do you mean go to FILE\OPEN CATALOGUE and choose the Lr3 catalogue?

This will produce a pop-up that asks if you want to re-launch Lightroom and use this "new" catalogue.

Maybe my original question was not clear.  I already have an Lr4 catalogue with images in it (some carried over from Lr4 beta), and I want to consolidate this and the Lr3 cat into one so that I can use only Lr4.

Thanks for your patience.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 07, 2012, 06:02:50 PM
I already have an Lr4 catalogue with images in it (some carried over from Lr4 beta), and I want to consolidate this and the Lr3 cat into one so that I can use only Lr4.
How about ?
File > Import from another catalogue

Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: IanScicluna on March 07, 2012, 06:07:07 PM
 :-[  Now I'm embrassed.  Thanks!  I appreciate your help.

Good night.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: jljonathan on March 07, 2012, 08:02:34 PM
There is an issue with custom point curves during the Lr 3 --> Lr 4 process not being preserved.  We (Adobe) are investigating that.  My understanding is that if you had left the point curve at its default value in Lr 3 (e.g., Medium Contrast for raw, Linear for non-raw), then there is no issue.

No other image settings are affected.

This may be true, but how many users just leave the curve setting at default, medium contrast. I don't, and from what I gather from reading the replies, many others don't. Thus, expect some mild to severe changes when upgrading images. I'm in the process of trying to compare some upgrades with the originals in ver. 3.6 and will get back with any updates.
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 08, 2012, 04:38:14 AM
If someone has a catalogue with edited images and tone curves as well as non edited images then choose the edited images for export to a new catalogue and go ahead and convert the non edited images to LR4?
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Walter_temp on March 08, 2012, 05:22:08 AM
To which purpose? Whom does this effort do any good?
- First there is no easy way - at least none I'm aware of - to tell the images treated with tone curves and those that haven't.
A professional photographer may have several 10,000 images in his directories. Time is money for pros.
- Which workflow do you intend to use?
Going ahead with the imported catalog, transferring to process version 2012, take advantage of softproof, a new way (a better one, of course) to manipulate the images in Development
and
keep the photos you "tone-curved" in LR 3?
Why on earth do I want to do that?

Ciao, Walter
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 08, 2012, 05:55:33 AM
Rhossyd wants to.  Images that have been edited show up as such. They can be selected and exported?
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Walter_temp on March 08, 2012, 06:11:20 AM
Rhossyd wants to.

I doubt but it doesn't matter. Let him speak and act for himself. I think he is able to do both very well and able to master LR, too.
I suppose your intentions are good but you are not helping here. I don't want to be rude but your knowledge in LR seems to be very limited.

Ciao, Walter
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 08, 2012, 06:18:01 AM
How much knowledge do I need to learn before I can post on the subject? I am here to learn and if I can get replies to my posts then I may learn more? I won't however learn anything about manners from your good self? :) ;) BTW I agree with the thrust of your post # 46if you read the thread from the beginning
so your patronising tone is misplaced? :)
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Walter_temp on March 08, 2012, 06:35:13 AM
Have you tried to create a second or third catalog in LR 3? You can create as many as you like and free disk space is available.
If done so, import some photos.
Do some manipulations without tone curve settings. Do some other photos with tone curve settings.
Export your catalog and import it to LR 4. See what happens and compare to LR3.

-> You learned something.

It's called empiricism = experience/experiment and evidence.
Your approach seems to be more like scholasticism.

Ciao, Walter

Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: stamper on March 08, 2012, 07:13:00 AM
I have done all that Walter and there was a difference. The difference was that I had a preset in LR3 that was General Zeroed and one created in LR4. As you KNOW there is a difference in the Zeroed settings - as well as all the sliders - between the two programs. My intention is to leave alone all the catalogues created in LR3 - not many - and create new ones for LR4. This means no problems between the processing. I may even know more than you think I do? ;)
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: madmanchan on March 08, 2012, 08:46:50 AM
That's my experience here.Except the lens calibration settings are updated to the new process regardless. Not sure what impact that might have on some users.

There are no process-specific lens calibration settings. 

Perhaps you can clarify what you mean?
Title: Re: LR3 to LR4 upgrade catogue issues.
Post by: Rhossydd on March 08, 2012, 04:09:42 PM
There are no process-specific lens calibration settings. 
Perhaps you can clarify what you mean?
Process 2010 has variable chromatic aberration options, 2012 is either on or off. So the panel options are different.
I'm sure Adobe's position is that the new process is all you need, but I have read of some criticism of the new system. So that enforced change to a 2012 option may not be universally appreciated.