Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Studio B on February 27, 2012, 10:34:30 am

Title: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: Studio B on February 27, 2012, 10:34:30 am: Over on CR there's been a few photos leaked of the Canon 5D Mark III. Since then their server has been in and out.

Here are the photos. You must login to see the photos.
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: DaveCurtis on February 28, 2012, 01:53:26 am: With owning a 1D3 I will now have to consider whether the 5D3 is good enough.

Hard to get excited though.
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: tom b on February 28, 2012, 02:58:39 am: 5D Mark III/X from CR

Below are the specs for the coming 5D replacement, the full name of the camera is currently unknown:

22mp
61pt AF
100% VF
3.2″ LCD
Dual CF/SD Card Slots
Price: Around $3500 USD
Announcement on March 2, 2012

Sounds like a minor upgrade.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: DaveCurtis on February 28, 2012, 03:28:57 am: Yes, not much in the way of a resolution increase. However you would expect to see a large improvement in AF.
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: MrSmith on February 28, 2012, 05:36:05 am: be interesting to see how many mpixels it has? i know a few people who are going to ditch their 5dII's for a d800 if it's only 22mpixel (these are advertising photographers who already own a 39+mpixel back) i guess professionals who desire a 100meg tiff are in the minority and i have no idea how the amateur market will see the camera?
if you are posting lurid HDR sunsets on flickr you don't even need 21mp, i guess if you have a kit list with 'L' lenses in red at the bottom of your forum posts a 5DIII is a good thing ::)
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: DeeJay on February 28, 2012, 07:43:58 am: This 5D will be make or break for Canon. The pressure is certainly on for them and their day of supremacy is probably over. That Nikon 800/e is really going to put a massive dent in Canon but I'm really sure they've been sitting on their cards for years. I bet they are going to unleash something to match or better. The Nikon has come as a surprise to everyone and seemingly a surprise to Canon also. I'm not making any guess of spec until it's official and OUT.

The 41MP phone from Nokia goes to show that there is a little more to pixels than has been bandied about for a couple years now and I can see why people will drop Canon for the Nikon. Even if they probably will never need that much resolution.
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: PierreVandevenne on February 28, 2012, 08:40:37 am: Depends on how the sensor behaves. But yes, those dry specs aren't that tempting. Unless there's a marked improvement in the sensor dynamic range, that will be a "pass" for me as I can live with the so-so autofocus of the current 5DMKII
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: Michael West on February 28, 2012, 10:23:14 am: according to the specs on one Chinese web site the 5DMK X has substantially more resolution that the rumored MKIII. in fact more than twice the resolution.

Release date: February 2012
Body features: full-frame digital SLR
Mode of operation: full manual
Effective pixels : 45 million
Imaging Processor: DIGIC 5 + DIGIC 4

that should surprise the folks at Nikon if it pans out as advertised here.
Rumors abound (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://detail.zol.com.cn/313/312043/param.shtml&usg=ALkJrhjK8OUm6Bjzt7RtxZIQo6ZTcJnZUA)
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 28, 2012, 11:11:53 am: If you really think any of the stuff that company A is doing will really surprise company B and vice-versa when it is announced I have a bridge in New York City to sell you.
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: DaveCurtis on February 28, 2012, 01:52:16 pm: As a Canon shooter, what disapoints me most is their current lack of innovation compared to what we have seen coming out of other companys.

Who knows maybe they will suprise us.
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: stevesanacore on February 28, 2012, 06:01:20 pm: I sense a landslide of shooters going back to Nikon if Canon doesn't release a 36mp or more camera body. It's amazing that after years of being years ahead of Nikon - they let this happen. Maybe it's not what they want to do, if so, fine - back to Nikon we go, with autofocus that works and sharp WA lenses. I would just rather stick with Canon, so my fingers are crossed.
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 28, 2012, 06:32:21 pm: It would really love the rumored 5DX to be 45 high quality mega pixels.

For me, as a stitcher, I only need the Canon version of the Zeiss 50mm f2.0 so the investment would be minimal.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: Michael West on February 28, 2012, 10:33:02 pm: The "5D X" is still posted on the Chinese website and Im betting it's the real deal. I cant see what they'd possibly have to gain by posting fallacious data .
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 28, 2012, 11:50:59 pm: Quote from: Michael West on February 28, 2012, 10:33:02 pm
The "5D X" is still posted on the Chinese website and Im betting it's the real deal. I cant see what they'd possibly have to gain by posting fallacious data .

Yep... false rumors... that would be unheard of. ;)

But I agree with you, I am sure there is a 5DIII/5DX to be announced soon... the question is more how many months will ellapse between announcement and actual availability.

This may be what the X is about. ;D
1DX -> X=7 month gap between annoucement and planned availability
5DX -> ???

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: DaveCurtis on February 29, 2012, 12:19:40 am: Quote from: BernardLanguillier on February 28, 2012, 11:50:59 pm
Yep... false rumors... that would be unheard of. ;)

But I agree with you, I am sure there is a 5DIII/5DX to be announced soon... the question is more how many months will ellapse between announcement and actual availability.

This may be what the X is about. ;D
1DX -> X=7 month gap between annoucement and planned availability
5DX -> ???

Cheers,
Bernard

Now now Bernard, it's bad enough us canonites probably having to put up with 22MP without you rubbing it in ;)
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: Wayne Fox on February 29, 2012, 03:11:35 am: Quote from: BernardLanguillier on February 28, 2012, 11:50:59 pm
But I agree with you, I am sure there is a 5DIII/5DX to be announced soon... the question is more how many months will ellapse between announcement and actual availability.

Some interesting stuff. Interesting how Nikon's info was common knowledge and the rumor sites pretty well had it nailed for a while, yet with Canon no one has a real clue. I talked to a good friend who is in Canon USA management (different product line) and he certainly knew something but of course wouldn't say ... all he said was everyone was going to be "really" surprised. Of course, by that he might mean we'll all be really surprised because they'll announce some totally unrelated thing and not touch the 5D :)

Personally I've heard strong rumors they are going to announce 2 versions of the 5D, both the 5D Mark 3 and the 5Dx, with the 5D mark 3 priced to move down into the 60d price range, slightly improved autofocus, similar resolution but much better noise, and a 40+mp model, better focus and body design.

Fun to speculate .. guess we'll see on Friday!
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: BJL on February 29, 2012, 03:12:46 pm: Quote from: Wayne Fox on February 29, 2012, 03:11:35 am
... all he said was everyone was going to be "really" surprised. Of course, by that he might mean we'll all be really surprised because they'll announce some totally unrelated thing and not touch the 5D :)

Fun to speculate .. guess we'll see on Friday!
Really surprised? How about a tablet, with a killer camera module.

And I would be really surprised if none of the announced cameras goes significantly beyond 24MP ... so is that what he is hinting at?
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: fike on February 29, 2012, 05:23:59 pm: Megapixels alone won't drive me to a camera like the 5DMKIII. Enhanced ISO performance would be great (of course additional MP might improve ISO with downsampling). What I think Canon needs to do is spend a bit more time on the user interface by adding enhanced software capabilities. There is no reason a camera of this shouldn't have built-in intervalometer, HDR, focus bracketing, configurable auto ISO, etc....

We are getting towards the point where the sensor pitch makes us diffraction limited. I know my crop sensor gets there in the mid f-stops...what is it for a 7d, about f/8 or f/11, I think? I haven't been following this topic for full frame sensors. What is the diffraction limit on a full frame sensor with 22MP, 35MP, 45MP?

However it is done, better low-light image quality is probably my highest priority. This would do the most to improve my work.
Title: When is resolution limited only by physics (diffraction) not sensor limitations?
Post by: BJL on February 29, 2012, 05:56:49 pm: I agree that there are lots of other places that efforts to improve could go.
Quote from: fike on February 29, 2012, 05:23:59 pm
What is the diffraction limit on a full frame sensor with 22MP, 35MP, 45MP?
And I have some rough numbers on diffract below. But first, my usual rant:

Diffraction limitation is absolutely nothing to worry about! In fact it is my dream than my sensors and lenses will someday resolve well enough that my image resolution is limited only by the unavoidable physical limits of light itself (oh, and by my technique). All it means is that at some high enough f-stops, the resolution is not as much better than with a lower resolution sensor as you might hope based on pixel size alone; never is the resolution worse at equal f-stop with more pixels? To put it another way, the only alternative to resolution being limited by diffraction is the resolution instead being limited by the inadequacies of the sensor or of the lens (aberrations) or other factors; how can that possibly be better than being limited only by the basic physics of light?

Translate "diffraction limited" as "resolution not limited by either lens aberrations or the sensor", and be happy. (Except that actually there is an overlap region, where both diffraction and other factors like sensor resolution significantly limit the overall resolution.)

P. S. And when a sensor resolution increase at a given f-stop does produce significant diffraction, it should also significantly reduce moiré problems.

Anyway, to try to answer your question for the case of 45MP: on 36x24mm that is about 8200x5500 and a pixel pitch of about 4.4 microns, about the same as in an 18MP Canon EF-S body [like your 7D] or 11MP in 4/3". So "been there, done that". This means that somewhere around twice the pixel spacing, f/8 to f/11 [just as you say for your 7D] resolution is somewhat noticeably less than at larger apertures, and by f/16 it is quite noticeably less ... but to repeat, still as good as or better than at the same aperture with a lower resolution sensor.
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 29, 2012, 06:16:24 pm: Quote from: fike on February 29, 2012, 05:23:59 pm
what is it for a 7d, about f/8 or f/11, I think?

More like f5.6 or f6.3.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: BJL on February 29, 2012, 06:58:37 pm: Quote from: BernardLanguillier on February 29, 2012, 06:16:24 pm
More like f5.6 or f6.3.
If you mean the threshold of some detectable effect on resolution. But that is near one end of the gray zone, sort of like taking the high tide mark as the end of the land and the start of the sea. And likewise, my f/11 might be like low tide, and on recalculating I will retract f/16 in favour of about 3x pixel pitch, or f/13.

[Edit:] The cambridgeincolour calculator http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.html seems to give reasonable guidance once you check "set circle of confusion based on pixels".
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 29, 2012, 09:14:24 pm: Quote from: BJL on February 29, 2012, 06:58:37 pm
If you mean the threshold of some detectable effect on resolution. But that is near one end of the gray zone, sort of like taking the high tide mark as the end of the land and the start of the sea. And likewise, my f/11 might be like low tide, and on recalculating I will retract f/16 in favour of about 3x pixel pitch, or f/13.

True.

We should compare a 36 mp camera at f11 to a 24mp camera at f6.3... my guess is that the level of detail will be very similar...

So those who intend to keep shooting at f11 will IMHO not see much value with a D800.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: BJL on February 29, 2012, 11:12:09 pm: I would be interested in comparisons at equal f-stop between cameras with sensors of the same size but different resolutions, like 16MP, 24MP vs 36MP for Nikon, and 18MP, 22MP and 45MP or whatever for Canon. Say comparing those several resolution options all at f/5.6, and all at f/8, and all at f/11. That would show which DOF choices can benefit from greater resolution, and by how much, and also at what stage there is little resolution gain (even though there could be other gains, like reduced aliasing and maybe less jaggies). It seems common opinion that there will be little resolution benefit in going beyond 22/24MP when you need f/16 to get your desired DOF, but f/11 and f/8 are controversial.

And if the limit is as low as f/8, when you look close enough to see all the exta detail that the resolution increase delivers, OOF effects will be clear outside a narrower range of subject distances than with standard viewing distance --- for 36MP+, only the same range of distances as with about f/4-5.6 for standard viewing distance.
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: Michael West on March 01, 2012, 12:05:51 am: from China

http://www.spreecast.com/channels/phototips

8AM EST

amnouncement time

the stage looks pretty impressive.

(http://images.freshnessmag.com/wp-content/uploads//2012/02/canon-eos-5d-mark-iii-announcement-10.jpg)
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: uaiomex on March 01, 2012, 12:38:38 am: Those are huge pictures. Does it mean the 22 mp rumor is wrong? Or they want to prove that 22 or 18 mp's are enough for really big pictures?
Eduardo

Quote from: Michael West on March 01, 2012, 12:05:51 am
from China

http://www.spreecast.com/channels/phototips

8AM EST

amnouncement time

the stage looks pretty impressive.

(http://images.freshnessmag.com/wp-content/uploads//2012/02/canon-eos-5d-mark-iii-announcement-10.jpg)
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: Michael West on March 01, 2012, 01:26:30 am: only time will tell.

these are the specs posted on a chinese wbesite for the 5D X

http://detail.zol.com.cn

http://tinyurl.com/The-Canon-5D-X

Body features: full frame digital SLR
Effective pixels: 45 million
Release date: February 2012
Mode of operation: manual operation
Imaging Processor: DIGIC + DIGIC 4
Focus Points: 61 points

if these specs are real..this could be an interesting announcement
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: Wayne Fox on March 01, 2012, 01:37:26 am: yeah, those specs have been there for a while. Actually at this point, I'd be very surprised if there are two significant versions ..

why would the stage be featuring powershots? Those have all been refreshed quite recently ... perhaps this is a stock photo of a previous event?

more rumblings the camera will only be 22mp and focus on enhancements in other areas such as ISO, shooting speed, overall image quality, dynamic range, much improved focusing, built in GPS, perhaps built-in wireless connectivity. Not much of a "surprise" unless surprise means they have have left the megapixel race, which everyone has harped on this is the camera makers should go, then Nikon goes ahead, and now all the talk about no point in it seems to be cast aside. I've no problem with it, because I'll freely admit I've never been one of those, Personally I'm of the camp that the sensor should have so much resolution that the each lens actually becomes the limiting factor, and dialing out diffraction actually determines the "resolution" of each image. So I would be very disappointed in a 22mp 5D Mark3 ...it be more like a 5D mark 2.1 to me.

not much longer ...
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: Michael West on March 01, 2012, 01:40:21 am: The 5D mark 2.1 seems a possibility.
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: bill t. on March 01, 2012, 02:25:12 am: Read the graphics in the photo. PowerShot A4090 IS. Woohoo! Maybe it's got 22mp, ya think?
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: Ray on March 01, 2012, 02:48:00 am: Quote from: BJL on February 29, 2012, 11:12:09 pm
I would be interested in comparisons at equal f-stop between cameras with sensors of the same size but different resolutions, like 16MP, 24MP vs 36MP for Nikon, and 18MP, 22MP and 45MP or whatever for Canon. Say comparing those several resolution options all at f/5.6, and all at f/8, and all at f/11. That would show which DOF choices can benefit from greater resolution, and by how much, and also at what stage there is little resolution gain (even though there could be other gains, like reduced aliasing and maybe less jaggies). It seems common opinion that there will be little resolution benefit in going beyond 22/24MP when you need f/16 to get your desired DOF, but f/11 and f/8 are controversial.

I've already done such comparisons, BJL. A few years ago I made the mistake of jumping in too soon and getting a Canon 40D, not realising of course that Canon would release a significantly upgraded 50D a short time later, which I also couldn't resist buying. The 40D at 10mp is equivalent to a 26mp full-frame, and the 50D at 15mp is equivalent to a 39mp full-frame.

The target I used was an Australian $50 bill taped to a wall, and the lens used was the Canon 50/F1.4. With such tests at relatively close distances, focussing is absolutely critical. That was the main challenge. Both cameras have Live View, but the 40D's LCD screen is lower resolution than the 50D's screen. This fact alone created some doubt as to whether or not focussing was identical with both cameras, which were placed alternately on the same tripod in the same position after attaching the same lens.

To overcome such focussing problems, I simply relied upon moire and aliasing artifacts as my guide for best focus. The $50 bill has similar characteristics to any test target with fine lines. When focussing is 'spot on', there's always a blaze of colorful artifacts that appear in certain parts of the image, when the camera is within a particular range of close distances from the target.

From memory, the results of my tests were:

(1) At F5.6 the 40D was very marginally sharper than the 50D at F8, at extreme pixel-peeping levels of 200% or more on screen.

(2) At F11, the 50D was fully equal in resolution to the 40D at F8. In other words, the 50% increase in pixel-count of the 50D had fully compensated for the increased diffraction at F11.

(3) At F16, the 50D had about the same resolution as the 40D at F11. I say 'about' because the results were not quite as identical as the 50D at F11 compared with the 40D at F8. In other words, at 400% magnification on screen one got the impression that maybe the 40D shot was very, very slightly more detailed.

(4) At F22, the 50D image was noticeably softer than the 40D at F11. At F22 I believe diffraction has fully kicked in and no increase in pixel count could compensate for that, without also an increase in sensor size.

(5) Comparing both cameras at equal F stops, from F5.6 to F16, the 50D image was more detailed to varying degrees. The same should apply to comparisons between 26mp and 39mp full-frames, except at the edges and corners of course.
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: Rhossydd on March 01, 2012, 04:13:29 am: Quote from: uaiomex on March 01, 2012, 12:38:38 am
Those are huge pictures.
No they're not. It's just normal big TV screens, as seen at concerts etc. HDTV(2mp) at best.
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: Derryck on March 01, 2012, 08:36:05 am: I'm looking forward to heading down to Nanjing Rd tomorrow and watch Jackie Chan unveil the new 45mp Ixus.

Seriously though I'd be happy with a 5DIII that has 22 super clean megapixels for still images and better video that I don't have to worry about moire or aliasing. I can't remember the last time any of my clients reproduced my images larger than A2.
Title: Limit of useful sensor resolution at a given f-stop
Post by: BJL on March 01, 2012, 09:32:20 am: Thanks Ray,
item (5) is somewhat useful, but I am greedy: I want quantification of the resolution, and examples that I can view myself, all at equal image size. I suspect that in the end this requires printing crops of an equal portion of the comparison images at equal size, or upsizing to equalize output pixel counts before doing any 200% viewing.

(I deleted the rest of this post as it was a bit off-topic relative to what you were saying.)

P. S. To get comparisons that are guaranteed to be in focus, how does this sound: focus at a slight angle to the plane of a highly detailed subject like a brick wall from a distance, so that at worst, the plane of critical focus intersects the subject slightly away from the point where one tried to focus, but there is at least a strip that is precisely in focus.
Title: Re: Limit of useful sensor resolution at a given f-stop
Post by: Ray on March 01, 2012, 10:11:08 am: Quote from: BJL on March 01, 2012, 09:32:20 am
Observing that, for example, f/16 give less resolution than f/11 on the same sensor only shows that both diffraction and sensor resolution are limiting the overall resolution at f/16, leaving it very likely that an increase in sensor resolution would still give a worthwhile increase in overall resolution at f/16. My interest is knowing at what level of sensor resolution (MP or whatever) does one stop getting any increase in overall resolution from further increases in sensor resolution, holding f-stop constant.......

Perhaps I wasn't clear on the procedure. I wasn't comparing resolution of the same sensor at different f/stops, but the resolution from different sensors with different pixel densities, at the same and different f/stops.

Extrapolating the sensors in the cropped-format cameras that I used to full-frame size, the results as I recall indicate that at F22 a 39mp full-frame camera will have no resolution advantage over a 26mp full-frame, but at F16 it will. At F16 the 39mp camera delivers about the same resolution from the same lens as a 26mp camera produces at F11.

The test was carried out because at the time of the release of the 15mp 50D there was a lot of talk about such increased pixel density being of no advantage at apertures possibly smaller than F5.6 and definitely smaller than F8 because of the effects of diffraction. This concern proved to be unfounded. However, since I don't currently have access to the results, I can't remember with certainty whether that cut-off point for a 39mp full-frame sensor occurred perhaps 1/3rd of a stop before F22, at say F20. But there's no doubt that at F16 the 39mp sensor continued to deliver more resolution than the 'effective' 26mp sensor.
Title: Re: Limit of useful sensor resolution at a given f-stop
Post by: BJL on March 01, 2012, 10:17:39 am: Ray, sorry: I post to soon and then massively rewrote my response, focusing on the part of your post that helps me the most. I initially got of on a tangent about issues like not wanting to deal with comparisons of different cameras at different f-stops.

Quote from: Ray on March 01, 2012, 10:11:08 am
Extrapolating the sensors in the cropped-format cameras that I used to full-frame size, the results as I recall indicate that at F22 a 39mp full-frame camera will have no resolution advantage over a 26mp full-frame, but at F16 it will. At F16 the 39mp camera delivers about the same resolution from the same lens as a 26mp camera produces at F11.
Yes: the f/22 result is no surprise; it is already quite noticeably affected by diffraction limited in normal viewing of prints from film. At f/16, I hope to soon see for myself how much the advantage is of the latest round of sensor resolution increases.
Title: Re: Canon 5D Mark III leaked photos
Post by: BJL on March 02, 2012, 08:02:47 am: Quote from: BJL on February 29, 2012, 03:12:46 pm
I would be really surprised if none of the announced cameras goes significantly beyond 24MP ...
So I have to confess: I am now officially really surprised!

My new guess is that Canon has decided to play to its strengths (video, action, low light?), fix the weaknesses that it easily can (AF, VF, body ruggedness vs the previous 5D models), and avoid areas where Sony and Nikon hold a solid lead right now (per pixel quality and processing speed with high resolution sensors).