Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: torger on February 25, 2012, 06:20:20 pm

Title: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on February 25, 2012, 06:20:20 pm
Linhof Techno seems like an interesting MF tech system for cost-sensitive amateurs like myself since lenses can be had realtively low cost (Schneider Digitar) compared to ALPA or Arca-Swiss R-Line.

What I don't understand is how Linhof claims focusing ability that no other bellows camera does. While for example Arca-Swiss say that less than 45mm is not suitable for their bellows cameras due to precision issues (they recommend R-Line), Linhof says 23mm is ok with the Techno (I would not use shorter than 35mm myself though).

It's not only the wide angles, it's also about the ground glass -- can it really be used for critical focus? Or do you need ALPA-style distance-calibrated focus rings and laser distance meters? Lets assume a world where there is no live view on the digital back, since that is where I'm going to be if I enter MF digital.

Anyway, my educated guess from all theory I know is actually that the Techno should probably work. But when I read about MF digital for landscape photography it seems like a lot of stuff is about difficulty focusing. I grasp all the technical aspects, shimming, micrometric precision required from optics etc, but still it makes me wonder at which apertures people are shooting, and if the ground glass really is unusable for final focusing.

Say shooting individual flowers with a short DOF I guess you'd probably want to check focus on a large screen preferably. But larger landscape scenes, I was thinking that in 99% of those cases you'd use an aperture say f/8 - f/11 and focus at a distance such that DOF is sufficiently large so minor focus errors would be masked, and thus it would be possible to use a loupe on the ground glass and make as sufficently good focusing. In other words, that all the talk about how difficult it is to focus MF systems is a bit exaggerated. But perhaps the ground glass is too grainy to see good focus or impossible to get sufficiently well-matched with the back?

If that would be the case the Techno seems pretty unusable without a live view back.

I've read Joseph Holmes interesting articles http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html and http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html and from those MF, especially tech cam systems, seems pretty hopeless to get perform well. But on the other hand he seems to be extremely picky about quality, expecting full corner-to-corner sharpness at maximum aperture, something I'm not used to demanding in the 35mm world...

With the live view on 35mm digital I've never felt the need to have a distance scale on the lens, except for certain focus stacking situations, but in those cases I've solved it by focusing on objects in the scene at different distances. I never set the lens to infinity or hyperfocal etc, I always focus on something. So if the ground glass can be made to work similary to a live view, I'm good.

Has anyone used the Techno and has anything to report about focusing?

(If someone wonders why I ask stuff all over the place about 4x5" film, digital, stitching etc, the reason is I'm investigating several options to get to a more view camera-like workflow with high resolution potential, which suits my photographer's personality better than running around with 35mm digital and tilt-shift lenses.)
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: theguywitha645d on February 25, 2012, 06:28:12 pm
I use a Phase One P25+ on a Linhof C679 which I believe has a very similar focusing mechanism and ground glass with 55mm and 90mm lenses. I don't have any focusing problems. BTW, focus tolerance is a product of the aperture, not focal length--it is related to depth of focus (not depth of field).
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Gigi on February 25, 2012, 07:17:49 pm
Very interested in this exact subject as well, for the same reasons. The Techno seems to offer 4x5 LF technique and flexibility with digital back tolerances - raising the question: does it really work that well? The OP seems to suggest landscape work, not nec. table top, and it would seem f8-11 would do the trick just fine. Again, anyone with real-world experience?
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Codger on February 25, 2012, 10:09:16 pm
I, too, have had an on-going curiosity about the Techno.  The whole sliding back "thing" where you compose your shot and then slide the digital back into place seems unwieldy and awkward, but several accomplished LF photographers have produced beautiful work with the process.  Look into Joe Cornish and search out some of his comments on some other forums or blogs.  He used Ebony 4x5 gear for quite a long time, then transitioned to MF digital via the Techno and apparently still uses it for certain kinds of landscape shooting.  I've corresponded with him before, directly (through his website connection) and he's proved to be a thoughtful, helpful person.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: theguywitha645d on February 25, 2012, 11:14:24 pm
I use the sliding back on my Linhof. It is easy once you get used to it. It doss take make the camera wide and I have to remember to lock my swing--not a problem with the Techno, I understand. But it is quick to use.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on February 26, 2012, 03:56:08 am
I use a Phase One P25+ on a Linhof C679 which I believe has a very similar focusing mechanism and ground glass with 55mm and 90mm lenses. I don't have any focusing problems. BTW, focus tolerance is a product of the aperture, not focal length--it is related to depth of focus (not depth of field).

It is two parts, one is tolerance (which indeed larlgly is a depth of focus issue) the other is how possible it is to move the lens to the desired position through the available controls (gear on focus rail) and feedback (ground glass)

If I've understood things correctly, a 24mm lens has only about 1.6 mm distance on the rail between some sort of near limit and infinity. I was thinking that the focus rail (is that the right term?) on the Techno would have two knobs, one for large adjustments for tele lenses, and a fine-tune gear for the wides. But there is only one knob to turn as far as I know, and 1.6 millimeter would be a fraction of a turn, say (15 degrees or so). Having used geared macro rails for my DSLR I think that it can be good enough though, if gearing is high quality and feedback is good (you can see where focus is) you can with sufficent precision nail the focus even if the whole range is within less than a quarter of a turn.

Concerning depth of focus, approximately 2 * <f-number> * <max acceptable CoC>, a typical value would be something like 2 * 8 * 8 = 128 microns, if you relate CoC somewhat to diffraction and sensor resolving power (I think having the CoC somewhere inbetween pixel size and Airy disc would be suitable guide). Achieving a repeatable sub-0.1 mm match between ground glass and sensor would not be too hard, assuming you can adjust with shims?
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on February 26, 2012, 04:29:48 am
I found this thread:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/29341-no-love-linhof-techno.html

Seems like for some focusing is a big issue, especially those that have not used it :), while it works fine for others. And many think you'd preferably have live view on the back instead.

It does seem like the Techno may be stuck in the very very small niche for those that can afford a digital back but not the expensive lens systems of Arca R-Line and Alpa. Even if the Techno works it is so much uncertainty around it that you'd choose Arca/Alpa if you can.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 26, 2012, 05:01:15 am
Hi,

This is an important point often missed. Josep Holmes misses it and also does Lloyd Chambers.

See it this way. If you defocus the sensor 0.1 mm the circle of confusion caused by that defocus will be 0.1/f-stop mm, with f/8 it wil give a CoC of 12.5 microns.

Best regards
Erik


BTW, focus tolerance is a product of the aperture, not focal length--it is related to depth of focus (not depth of field).
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: dwhistance on February 26, 2012, 07:12:08 am
If it's any help I've just spent a week with Joe and watched him using his Techno.  He is slower using it than he was with his 4x5 but clearly doesn't have any problem with focus, or indeed dialing in swings and tilts.  I've also printed some images for him which I can confirm are stunningly sharp at very large sizes.

As a 4x5 photographer myself I am interested in the Techno as a route into digital MF but was concerned about all the comments on focusing digital backs.  Having seen Joe in action I am inclined to dismiss them , however it should be said that Joe is a master technician and has had more practice with view cameras of all sizes than almost anyone.

David Whistance
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Gary Ferguson on February 26, 2012, 09:15:42 am
I've used a Linhof M679cs with Phase One digital backs for several years now, starting with the P25 and after several upgrades I'm now using the P65+. I use it both with a Linhof sliding carriage and also by attaching the back directly to the body.

Focusing, especially with lens movements, is okay, but no better than okay. I'm looking forward very much to the arrival of a medium format back with fully functioning live view (as opposed to the IQ180 system which simply doesn't refresh quickly enough for focusing purposes).

The problem's easy enough to understand. When I used 4"x5" film I almost never enlarged more than x6 or x7. But with a digital back I'll sometimes enlarge x15 or x20. It's easy to use a x6 loupe on a focusing screen, but you can't really use a higher magnification loupe than this without the image becoming lost in the grain of the ground glass. Consequently critical focusing becomes an article of faith at large magnifications. Personally I've never found any real difference in the accuracy (or lack of it) between lenses from 35mm to 120mm, vignetting on wide angles adds to the problems but not insurmountably so, for me the key issue is the inadequacy of ground glass focusing for very large enlargements. I get by with it, and continue to use the system, so it is useable. But IMO live view will be a huge step forward for digital backs and technical cameras.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Gigi on February 26, 2012, 09:50:22 am
If it's any help I've just spent a week with Joe and watched him using his Techno.  He is slower using it than he was with his 4x5 but clearly doesn't have any problem with focus, or indeed dialing in swings and tilts.  I've also printed some images for him which I can confirm are stunningly sharp at very large sizes.

As a 4x5 photographer myself I am interested in the Techno as a route into digital MF but was concerned about all the comments on focusing digital backs.  Having seen Joe in action I am inclined to dismiss them , however it should be said that Joe is a master technician and has had more practice with view cameras of all sizes than almost anyone.

David Whistance

Can you elaborate on how the care in the technique has influenced the focusing part of this puzzle? Is it a question of DOF calcs, and using tilts carefully, or more than that for  the focusing aspects - as the care in composition, compiling, printing, etc.. is a different matter.

One wonders if focusing for landscapes and urban shots is good enough with the GG, and if for closer subjects, use of the helical mounts and some disto-meter is needed, or tethering? Is that a fair appraisal?
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: tom_l on February 26, 2012, 10:01:38 am
It probably depends a lot on the user of such a camera, his experience, and his eyes. (Some of my assistants, they're 10-15 younger, get sometimes better results once they're used to a camera, than I do, I'm only 35 :-/)
I sold my old Flexicam, which is kind of similar to the Techno, because to standard screen was quite dark with the 35 Digitar. The real probelm for me was the risk to focus beyond infinity. Longer lenses were not problematic, and i used it on location too with a 72 and 100mm Digitar.
I now use the Bicam II which is maybe an alternative for some people:
YOu can choose if you want to use it ass a technical pancake camera or a bellow camera. You then mount your lenses on a normal lensboard or a board with focusing ring.
For wide angle, i choose to mount my 35mm with a focusing ring. The camera is then quite similar to a Cambo or Alpa SWA. It only shift up/down. unfortunately. For others lenses, i fix a bellow unit on the body, and the camera then gets side shift, tilt and swing movements and is then similar to the Techno.The lenses are then on a simple board.
One nice advantage: You can switch between a sliding back (still problematic with the 35mm) or mount the back directly to the body(and use a small viewfinder).
Vieri, he is on the GetDpi Forum, I don't know if he's here too, has used both cameras with amazing results.
I  had a look at the Techno at the Photokina last time, it is amazingly well build, but i had found a Bicam at an very good used price and had already my lenses on the right boards too.
You probably should try the techno yourself if it suits you. I think the Techno and the Bicam (and the Artec too) are very good alrounder tools, but there are always better solutions for studio-only guys or architecture-only guys.



Tom
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: MHFA on February 26, 2012, 12:42:17 pm
The Techno is an allrounder, the Artec no. Architecture or landscape, for other uses I would prefer other system.

Michael
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on February 26, 2012, 01:43:07 pm
I come from the 35mm digital world. My "tech cam" today is a Canon 5D mark II with a 24mm TS-E lens, which is about as good as it gets for DSLRs.

Anyway, manual focusing in my world is as follows:


The purpose of listing this is to show that if you come from the 35mm digital world you perhaps don't have that high expectations. If you come from the ALPA world and use laser distance meters and lens distance scales, clearly the Techno will not look good. If you come from 4x5" large format, perhaps the small ground glass feel awkward.

But if you come from the 35mm digital world, perhaps it is not too bad? I guess it depends on how ground glass with loupe works in comparison to a modern DSLR live view. No doubt the live view is better in low light situations or verifying focus in shadowy areas. But perhaps the ground glass is good enough for most situations...?
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: darr on February 26, 2012, 03:37:14 pm
In controlled situations like the studio and perfect weather days outside, I have no problem focusing on the GG with my Arca M Line 2 and my Alpa Max, but when I do not have these situations, focusing can be a challenge. I do not own a Live View back (yet), but I have been able to work with what I have. I personally do not find it that much harder to focus on the 645 GG when compared to the 4x5". I think once I developed focusing with the 4x5" over 25 years ago, I carried the technique over to the 6x9 film backs and then to the 645 GG. Practice makes perfect?
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on February 26, 2012, 04:32:22 pm
In controlled situations like the studio and perfect weather days outside, I have no problem focusing on the GG with my Arca M Line 2 and my Alpa Max, but when I do not have these situations, focusing can be a challenge. I do not own a Live View back (yet), but I have been able to work with what I have. I personally do not find it that much harder to focus on the 645 GG when compared to the 4x5". I think once I developed focusing with the 4x5" over 25 years ago, I carried the technique over to the 6x9 film backs and then to the 645 GG. Practice makes perfect?

Sounds promising I think... :)

I have both high and low expectations. If it was just about the function, I'd probably be satisfied with juuust slightly better than unusable :). But I don't like the concept of paying €6500 for a camera that barely works, if that would be the case.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on February 26, 2012, 05:00:59 pm
The Techno was designed from ground up to be used with a digital back.
It doesn't make sense if you want to shoot film as I saw in the other thread.
For film you can get incredible IQ with inctredibly less money.
For a non pro if you don't have a lot (really a lot) of spare money to spend it is not really justiyable  to not use film with a view camera.
I am going the same route, and for me after a lot of reading and asking it will be an Arca Swiss F micrometric orbix with three or four lenses.
You can get such a kit in good shape and with excellent lenses for around 5000 Euro if you look a bit.
For digital you can easily pay 6-8 times as much.
I didn't count in the scanner so far, but still ...
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on February 26, 2012, 05:26:58 pm
The Techno was designed from ground up to be used with a digital back.
It doesn't make sense if you want to shoot film as I saw in the other thread.
For film you can get incredible IQ with inctredibly less money.
For a non pro if you don't have a lot (really a lot) of spare money to spend it is not really justiyable  to not use film with a view camera.
I am going the same route, and for me after a lot of reading and asking it will be an Arca Swiss F micrometric orbix with three or four lenses.
You can get such a kit in good shape and with excellent lenses for around 5000 Euro if you look a bit.
For digital you can easily pay 6-8 times as much.
I didn't count in the scanner so far, but still ...

I'm evaluating several options. The only thing I do know is that I'm not perfectly happy with the 35mm digital for my landscape work, and is looking for alternatives.

A Linhof Techno starter kit with a second hand P45+ and one lens can be had for about €18K. Schneider digitar lenses cost typicall €1K - €2.5K, similar to pro 35mm lenses. I actually may start off shooting 6x7 rollfilm, with the digital Techno and a digital lens (the 47mm) or two, sitting around waiting for a decent digital back second hand deal. Or I get one of those ancient tethered 22 megapixel backs as a starter for €2K and make a cumbersome but working laptop portable solution. I plan to invest over 3 years or so, so it is a big decision. Probably as much second hand stuff I can get, possibly buying stuff in the wrong order so I may not have a usable system to start with, but I have my 35mm digital in parallel.

The toughest starter cost is the camera itself, unfortunately not so easy to get second hand like older film cameras.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Satyajit on February 26, 2012, 06:08:16 pm
Getting a techno with IQ180 this week. With SK lenses.
Will do a few practice and test sessions and update shortly.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on February 27, 2012, 01:54:14 am
Getting a techno with IQ180 this week. With SK lenses.
Will do a few practice and test sessions and update shortly.

Exciting.

From the comments so far it seems like it indeed works ok, but there are some limitations with the GG. Wide angles are darker, especially in the corners and at some point it will become almost impossible to focus. Say if a 35mm only can be focused in full daylight and then only in the center of the picture, that would feel very limiting for me.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Lulumi on February 27, 2012, 04:13:30 am
I have used my techno with slidingback and IQ180 for several weeks.
It is easy to focusing on groundglass with  Fresnel Screen (002523).
So I am happy to changing alpa and arTec system to techno.
And I will sell out my alpa and arTec cameras recently.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on February 27, 2012, 05:40:36 am
I have used my techno with slidingback and IQ180 for several weeks.
It is easy to focusing on groundglass with  Fresnel Screen (002523).

What is the shortest focal length you use? What kind of light conditions have you tried? My main concern is short focal lengths (around 35mm) in darker situations like late evenings or early mornings, that it in those situations might not be possible to check focus in the corners, hard to see the effect of tilt etc. What kind of loupe do you use, a 6x?

Another use case I'd like to work well is taking photographs of individual flowers, which is precision work of tilt and focusing to get the focal plane just right. That would not be wide angle though, but short depth of field so it is more important to nail the focus.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: haefnerphoto on February 27, 2012, 07:39:42 am
I know I couldn't focus an Arca M2 with a 35mm on it.  I ended up with the RM3Di.  Jim
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Gigi on February 27, 2012, 09:25:21 am
I know I couldn't focus an Arca M2 with a 35mm on it.  I ended up with the RM3Di.  Jim

A few loose ends to keep in mind:

- the Techno is a traditional type view camera, offering improved stability on the rear, designed for digital but with a traditional approach to focusing.
- digital work is very tight tolerances for focusing (hair-thin DOF), and its likely one can't  focus precisely with a GG that small. Rough focus, yes. Fine, no. 
- for fine focus, some external  confirmation is needed: on the Techno, it would be either via tethering or 100% viewing on the back.

Its for this reason, Arca uses a different approach, with their fine focusing helical, and then calibrating this to some external distance measuring device (laser rangefinder, or the future E module). The Techno's focusing knob can't rival Arca's fine grained approach, but you get view camera flexibility in the Techno, and can throw almost any lens on it. The GG is probably more for crude focus and general composition more than anything else.

The conundrum is that having been raised with the notion of establishing fine control with the GG (both composition and focus), now we have to give that up and rely on the back. Heck, you might even just compose on the back, taking multiple shots till you get what you like. So the Techno has one foot in the past, the other in the future. Its either a comfortable matching of new and old or its not so good at either.  Precise GG focus is not likely to be its strong point. Flexibilty in a small scale view camera is.   
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: darr on February 27, 2012, 09:51:09 am

Another use case I'd like to work well is taking photographs of individual flowers, which is precision work of tilt and focusing to get the focal plane just right. That would not be wide angle though, but short depth of field so it is more important to nail the focus.
(http://cameraartist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2012022401.jpg)

CAMEILLA, Arca Swiss M Line 2, Schneider Macro-Digitar 120/5.6, P45
Taken a few days ago in the studio via tethered and focus stacking. I find this setup to be excellent for this type of work. I use my M2 in the studio primarily for table top work. I have taken it out in the field for architectural and landscape work, but opted for an Alpa Max after a while due to the ease of use with the pancake type cameras for wide angle work.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: buckshot on February 27, 2012, 11:34:53 am
I've been using a Techno for a couple of years now - with lenses from 28 to 120 - without a hitch.

To nail focus I use an 8x lupe, and have never had a problem focussing, even with the 28mm (which more often than not is simply shot at its HFD@f8, which I have marked the position of). I don't use an IQ back - which would make nailing focussing even easier I would imagine, since it has that great screen/zoom/focus-mask ability.

Quote
It does seem like the Techno may be stuck in the very very small niche for those that can afford a digital back but not the expensive lens systems of Arca R-Line and Alpa.

Sorry, but from my perspective as a working professional that's just plain wrong. Given the total $ investment I have in photographic equipment, the cost of the mounts is (relatively) inconsequential. Don't misunderstand me, money is just as much an issue for me as the next guy, but over the working life of the equipment - which will (hopefully) be many jobs over many years - this extra cost can be easily absorbed. For me the Techno was the best tool for my kind of work, and that's the absolute bottom line as to why I chose it. It's at home in the studio (shooting products/still-life/macro) and on location (shooting food/architecture/landscape), with lenses from 23 - 250, and simultaneous (yaw-free) swing/tilt available on every lens. In addition, by combining front rise/fall/shift with rear fall/rise/shift you can cover the entire image circle of pretty much any lens (designed for digital) out there.

Quote
From the comments so far it seems like it indeed works ok, but there are some limitations with the GG. Wide angles are darker, especially in the corners and at some point it will become almost impossible to focus. Say if a 35mm only can be focused in full daylight and then only in the center of the picture, that would feel very limiting for me.

A 'one ground-gless fits all' approach is always going to have limitations. I have two fresnel-based ground-glasses with different focal lengths - one for my wide-angles, one for longer lenses.

Quote
Even if the Techno works it is so much uncertainty around it that you'd choose Arca/Alpa if you can.

'So much uncertainty' - again, that's simply nonsensical. The only uncertainty I can see is whether or not you've actually used this camera?

Jim
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on February 27, 2012, 12:18:01 pm
The uncertainty comes from that few talk about the Techno, and many talk about the merits of helical focusing of the ALPAs and RM3Di, more or less directly dismissing ground glass focusing as hopeless. It is true though that most skepticism against the Techno seems to be from users that have not used it. Surfing around you don't really get the feel that the Techno is a big seller.

I have not used the Techno, and try to find out via reading as much as I can and ask around if it is a path worth trying. I live in the middle of nowhere so getting my paws on the real thing is not that easily arranged. I may even order it from abroad without trying it, and then try to minimize risk by reading and asking around.

When I as a curious newbie get to read a lot of things like this: "classic view camera photographers, a breed whose love of masochism has always seemed to me quite as acute as their night vision. Focusing a very short lens on a ground-glass screen in a dark interior, even with the benefit of a Fresnel screen and a very good magnifying hood, is tricky and often comes down to a question of 'point and hope'." it does stir a bit of uncertainty into my enthusiasm about getting a digital view camera. So it is nice to hear a few success stories too.

Otherwise the Techno does match my needs very well, wide focal length range from wides to tele, can even do macro, small enough so it is possible to go for a hike, suitable movements (although I'd like to have horizontal on the back too without the sliding back). And much lower cost lenses with good opportunities to get some of them second hand.

Another quite important factor is that I kind of like the look of it, and I just love super-smooth self-locking geared things (everything is geared on the Techno), handling gear with superb build quality and feel is an enjoyment by itself. I find myself hating some of my current gear despite that it does its job just fine, but touch-n-feel is like a piece of junk. I don't think that will be the case with the Techno :).
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Gigi on February 27, 2012, 12:35:49 pm
Question for Buckshot with his good experiences: thanks for posting. Reassuring to say the least.

Do you take the Techno out of the studio into the field as well? And have you used just a lupe on the GG, or one of those bellows based magnifiers?

Thanks! Hands on makes all the difference.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: seanconboyphotogenics on February 27, 2012, 02:52:53 pm
   
Re: Architectural Photography: Which digital back and camera system?
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2011, 03:16:08
Hi I enclose a post I made before on the techno and agree very much with buckshot comments hope my feedback helps
just picked up thread being shooting in scandinavia iam afraid i do not make many posts but i do enjoy reading the LL forums when i get chance.But felt being a Techno user i should give some feedback , i have been using the techno since oct 09 it was my choice after testing many cameras and has fitted in with me very well. Prior to digital capture i always shot on 4x5 cameras Sinar p2, Ebony sw,and Toyo vx125 so iam happy with bellows focusing and like the full range of movements the Techno gives me. My work means a lot of travel in cars ,trains and airplanes and is all on location so i must confess i work the camera very hard and cannot praise the camera enough,especially its build quality and accuracy.I find accurate focusing not a problem with techno ,although do not use the sliding back for the problems already mentioned i prefer and use the direct back.I use focal lengths 23.32.43.47.58.72.90.110.150.210 so for me the fact i do not have to helically mount is a cost saver.
I shoot tethered whenever i can to me it is like the ultimate polaroid,and art directors love it .But there are many situations when i shoot untethered and find this also works well for me . Hope this helps with a bit of feedback from a end user 
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: buckshot on March 01, 2012, 12:35:30 pm
@torger

Sorry if I was a bit short - didn't mean to be - just wearisome of the general notion that unless you use a helical, laser distometer etc. there's no way to focus accurately. With cameras as superbly machined as the Linhof, A/S ML2 ... that just ain't true. In the digital age, (un-tethered) bellows focussing is not for everyone that's for sure, but as with any focussing system there are ups and downs (or should that be ins and outs?) Gearing on the Techno is nice - rear rise/fall in particular is excellent. There are two knobs at the front to move the lens closer/further away. It would be nice if one was super-fine, the other coarse - but they're the same (kinda in the middle of smooth/coarse). Could the overall gearing be better? Yes, super fine worm gears for tilt/swing in particular would be nice ... but I'm being really pernickety here.

@Geoffreyg

Yes, I take it into the field. I use it with a variety of lenses, but when in the great outdoors I usually take just three. Together with the other various bits and pieces required (sliding back, lupe etc.) they all easily fit in a small peli case which I then shove inside a proper backpack.

I use a lupe, but also have the Linhof 3x bag/bellows magnifier - which, whilst nice - doesn't really get much use as I prefer the Hasselblad RMFX finder for general composition, and the lupe to nail focussing. In the studio I generally shoot tethered.

Jim
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: BillOConnor on March 01, 2012, 01:01:27 pm
Someone else brought this up the last time a lengthy discussion of the Techno occurred. For the wides, why not order them with a helical focusing mount? Extra cost, maybe, but solves a lot of problems. With longer lenses, probably beyond 40mm, this would not be necessary. Spending a little extra to gain a camera with swings AND tilts, at the same time, rises, falls and shifts might be worth considering.

Bill O'Connor
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 01, 2012, 01:09:33 pm
Someone else brought this up the last time a lengthy discussion of the Techno occurred. For the wides, why not order them with a helical focusing mount? Extra cost, maybe, but solves a lot of problems. With longer lenses, probably beyond 40mm, this would not be necessary. Spending a little extra to gain a camera with swings AND tilts, at the same time, rises, falls and shifts might be worth considering.

Bill O'Connor

Wides are no more difficult to focus than any focal length--aperture is what defines focus tolerance.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on March 01, 2012, 03:19:05 pm
I've got some time to play around with an old simple 6x9 view camera.

I'm no longer at all worried about gearing, it's amazing how small adjustments your fingers can do, even if the whole range near-to-infinity is within half a turn you can do fine adjustments. With a smooth responsive gear and instant feedback to the eye via the ground glass it works well.

I'm not worried about ground glass resolution either, even if you can't really get to the pixel-by-pixel resolution like in 100% live view, it is easy to get a sense of where the focus peaks, by rocking a little bit forwards and backwards and watch things go in and out of focus on the glass. On that camera I got much better image for loupe analysis when the fresnel lens was removed.

The weakest part of the ground glass as I see it is instead the (lack of) brightness. With a 35mm DSLR live view I can actually focus when it is so dark I can't see stuff with the naked eye (an MFDB live view could probably not do that though, since it requires good high ISO performance). In good light conditions, there is no problem with the ground glass, it's a beauty to look at. But as it becomes darker and lenses vignettes more (wide angles) one can no longer focus in the corners but only in center. At even darker still, not there either. Where those limits go in practical photography is hard for me to predict though. I think it will be ok.

Large format digital lenses have the drawback that they have relatively small light opening wide open (f/5.6) and that the wides have dramatic vignetting, so the ground glass gets darker than it would have been with smaller format lens designs. But again, I think it will be ok.

The first thing I typically notice when I have problems with visibility is not that I can't focus or take the shot, but that I get some surprises when I look at the images back home, typically some tree branch showing in a corner etc. In brighter condititions however, I think the ground glass will be better than the live view I'm used to, since you can easily see the whole scene at once in incredible resolution and much quicker move around with the loupe than you scroll a live view.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: lstreet on March 03, 2012, 08:55:15 pm
I have owned a Techno camera for about 2 years.  I enjoy all the possible movements of the Techno.  I mount a Phase One P-45 on it using a Kapture Group sliding back, which is less expensive, smaller and lighter than the Linhof sliding back.  Because of its fixed rear standard the Techno has no problem bearing the weight of the P-45 and the Kapture Group sliding back.  In fact, the entire camera is very stable.  I think this stability is worth the loss of rear standard tilt and it is particularly nice given the low weight of this camera. 

I have not experienced focus or composing problems.  The Techno’s geared movements and focus work well for me.  I use a loupe to focus and I magnify the image on the P-45’s screen after taking an exposure to check focus. Unfortunately, I do not have any experience with the Techno using any lens wider than 47 mm.  The Techno’s bag bellows works well with a 47 mm lens, especially when using movements.  Composing and focusing with a 47 mm lens is more difficult than longer focus lenses because the image corners are pretty dark on a ground glass focus screen.  I have also had this problem with wide angle lenses on 4x5 and 8x10 cameras.  I can usually move my viewing angle of the Techno’s ground glass to see the corners of a 47 mm lens image unless the scene is really dark.

I agree with some of the other Techno owners who have posted in this forum.  The Techno works well. 

Since the Techno is very light and my view camera lenses are lighter than most of my medium and 35 mm format lenses the weight of my Techno/P-45 camera case is lighter than my other smaller format camera cases with the same number of lenses.  So it is a good camera for field work.

Some new view camera lenses are remarkably sharp.  The 47mm, 80 mm and 120 mm Schneider Digitar lenses and 180 mm Rodenstock HR lens that I use on the Techno produce very sharp images.  Better sharpness than I got with Zeiss lenses on a Contax 645 using the same P-45 back.  The new Schneider Digitar and Rodenstock HR lenses are a very good reason to use a view camera like the Techno.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on March 05, 2012, 05:28:33 am
Some new view camera lenses are remarkably sharp.  The 47mm, 80 mm and 120 mm Schneider Digitar lenses and 180 mm Rodenstock HR lens that I use on the Techno produce very sharp images.  Better sharpness than I got with Zeiss lenses on a Contax 645 using the same P-45 back.  The new Schneider Digitar and Rodenstock HR lenses are a very good reason to use a view camera like the Techno.

A question - do you buy your lenses pre-mounted on a linhof lens board, or do you get them without lens board and mount them yourself? I'm not sure if it is a big no-no  to mount digital lenses (especially wides) by yourself due to precision issues, that is messing up lens alignment after separating front and rear and screw them together again, or if it is ok. I have noted that it is generally possible to get better lens deals (more dealers to choose from) if you can buy them unmounted and get a lens board separately.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: darr on March 05, 2012, 07:26:41 am
torger, unless you are buying a helical mounted lens, you buy the lens separate from the board and mount them yourself with a retaining ring and lens wrench. Any tolerances that can be tweaked are made in the shimming of the digital back plate that attaches to the camera. If you purchase a camera that does not offer shimming with the digital back plate, then you run tests to see where the combination of the back and lens works best.

Alpa offers a shim kit (gaskets) with their back plates. I know the Arca R series has some type of tolerance tweaking on camera. When I tested my Alpa for shimming, it was in alignment to my amazement! With my ML2, I shoot tethered and so the tweaking is done during shooting.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: lstreet on March 05, 2012, 03:10:26 pm
The crucial adjustment for a view camera does not occur at the lens board but instead it is important for the location of the ground glass focus screen to be placed exactly where the sensor will be when the sensor is slid into place for the exposure.  If they are not properly aligned (on any camera) then focusing on the ground glass will not result in a good focus on the sensor.  I found that Kapture Group was very responsive to this issue and very good at making that alignment.  I recommend them.  If you use them you should call and talk to the guy who runs the company. 

I agree with the others who have pointed out that focusing on a view camera ground glass is feasible.  You just have to be careful.  Focusing a view camera of any size does require a different skill than is required with focus screens on other medium format and 35 mm format cameras.  You can get good at it by practicing however.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on March 05, 2012, 11:28:25 pm
Agree with the above. I focus on the ground glass of my Cambo and it is no big issue. The trick for me is to get comfortable, relax and take the time needed. With practice it gets pretty quick.

I find using a large dark cloth like we used in film days makes the process easier. Not sure why. Could be phycological.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: darr on March 06, 2012, 08:13:01 am
I find using a large dark cloth like we used in film days makes the process easier. Not sure why. Could be phycological.

Being under the dark cloth isolates the ground-glass and maximizes the pupil size thus makes it easier to view the image on the ground-glass. I have never understood why some people do not understand this. I think it is for those that like to take it all in.   ;)
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 06, 2012, 09:30:08 am
A question - do you buy your lenses pre-mounted on a linhof lens board, or do you get them without lens board and mount them yourself? I'm not sure if it is a big no-no  to mount digital lenses (especially wides) by yourself due to precision issues, that is messing up lens alignment after separating front and rear and screw them together again, or if it is ok. I have noted that it is generally possible to get better lens deals (more dealers to choose from) if you can buy them unmounted and get a lens board separately.

Mounted my lenses myself--very easy. The precision has nothing to do with focal length--the aperture defines the precision required. Nor do you need to worry about separating the rear element, it will screw back to the right position. And in the case of a camera like the Techno, the important factor is the difference between the position of the ground glass vs. the sensor--that is what needs to be precise.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on March 06, 2012, 10:39:21 am
And in the case of a camera like the Techno, the important factor is the difference between the position of the ground glass vs. the sensor--that is what needs to be precise.

Yep, but the adapters are not shimmable, right? So if the sensor alignment or glass is off, game over, right? Or are you supposed to fix it with shimming tape, or give the dealer an angry call and send back your stuff, even if you got your back separately and you don't really know if it is the back, back adapter, ground glass adapter or ground glass that is off?

The only shimmable adapter I've seen so far is the ones from ALPA. With the price the adapter plates have I guess one could demand 10 um precision, but the sensor could be off too, and concerning digital back sensor alignment precision I've not heard the best.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: darr on March 06, 2012, 11:27:49 am
Yep, but the adapters are not shimmable, right? So if the sensor alignment or glass is off, game over, right? Or are you supposed to fix it with shimming tape, or give the dealer an angry call and send back your stuff, even if you got your back separately and you don't really know if it is the back, back adapter, ground glass adapter or ground glass that is off?

The only shimmable adapter I've seen so far is the ones from ALPA. With the price the adapter plates have I guess one could demand 10 um precision, but the sensor could be off too, and concerning digital back sensor alignment precision I've not heard the best.

A couple of solutions:
1) Shoot tethered
2) Test your lenses for the tweak
3) If sensor is off by a lot (warped?), send the digital back to the manufacturer for repair

A reason to purchase the best quality or wait for the prices to come down or shoot FF Nikon, Canon, etc.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on March 06, 2012, 01:51:05 pm
I'm not sure if I'm right, but as far as I have understood the main reason why Alpa has shims in their back adapters is not to compensate for limitations in precision in their equipment, but for make up for issues with digital backs. I've also got the impression that it really does not matter which back you buy cheap or expensive, since no digital back manufacturer live up to their standards when it comes to sensor alignment.

I'm not even sure if I need to care about shimming. Would my eyes and fingers provide 10 um precision in bellows focusing? I would not think so.

But people do say things like "it is important that the ground glass and sensor plane is perfectly aligned", and then the natural follow-up questions are -- does misalignment occur often, and how large is the error? What do you do if they are not aligned (Linhof do not have any shims as far as I can see)? Say if it is off by 20 um, it probably does not matter to me. But if it is off by 100 um, then it may become relevant. But how likely is that? It may look like I'm in search for perfection, but really I'm not. I want to find out if problems that are discussed on the net are real (as seen from my horizon), and if real how to deal with them.

It could be the case that shimming is in practice only relevant for helical focusing systems, since for bellows focusing you're not dealing with that kind of precision in focus placement. I don't know.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: darr on March 06, 2012, 01:59:42 pm
It might interest you to watch these videos on the before and after results of shimming an Alpa:

Part One-A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajteLwe-ntE&feature=player_embedded#!)
Part One-B (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APM3yTlE8_M&feature=player_embedded)
Part Two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF-Llk3w3xA&feature=player_embedded)

BTW, I purchased my Alpa Max from Paul and highly recommend him. He is a very knowledgeable guy and excellent businessman. I stay with Alpa in part because of his business practices and commitment to his clients.

Also, I think you may be right about the shimming affecting helical mount lenses in particular. When I am focusing my ML2 in the studio with standard mount digitar lenses and tethered, I can see immediately where the focus plane is.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Gigi on March 06, 2012, 02:15:50 pm
Shimming - Joseph Holmes makes a very convincing case. I ran across this issue with my Rollei Hy6 and some lenses that just didn't quite seem to have the pop I remembered. A friend with a similar setup was getting better results, and he recommended the focus adjustment that is in the camera.

Basically its an electronic shimming adjustment to compensate for what you and the camera think is in focus (with AF or Focus confirmation) with what is in true focus at the back. You dial in settings while fully tethered and live view, make a note, and then when you put that lens on, you simply dial up the adjustment.

Big surprise. Some lenses were right on, some were off. Make the adjustment and all are sharp. Reluctant before, am convinced now. Something from this is relevant to this thread - probably need to calibrate something in every digital setup with multiple pieces requiring  high precision but from different sources.  
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: EricWHiss on March 06, 2012, 02:51:50 pm
As far as I understand it, the shimming only adjusts the fore / aft spacing.  You rely on the high quality machine work from the different vendors for angular alignment with respect to the lens axis and also that the back will be actually centered when all movements are set to their zero detents.  If anyone knows of easy ways to check these last two positioning factors, I'd love to hear them. 
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 06, 2012, 07:49:43 pm
The Alpa shimming, from the demonstration, is just finding infinity focus for the back. But what you need to do is find if the ground glass and sensor are at the same position. The Alpa shimming is also only setting the infinity stop for a particular temperature and lens--you would need to confirm that all the mounts are the same. Now either the Alpa is going to be used with guestimatation focusing, which questions this technique as focus precision is going to be low, or you are going to use a ground glass, at which point then the only important thing would be the difference between the sensor and GG--shimming is neither here nor there.

BTW, I do not think a distance 20X the focal length in meters is really infinity. When I had a Mamiya 6 rangefinder lens calibrated for infinity with the body, Mamiya told me that the target had to be several kilometers away or the rangefinder will show something less.

As far as my Linhof sliding back, I have no problems focusing. The GG is where it needs to be for focus.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Gigi on March 06, 2012, 08:55:50 pm
If you don't mind, are you using a Linhof sliding back, or Kapture Group?
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 06, 2012, 09:10:47 pm
I am using the Linhof back.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on April 14, 2012, 03:01:07 am
So I finally got my own Linhof Techno.

I started with a simple Rodenstock 35mm Apo-Sironar Digital, I probably will change it to a Schneider 35mm XL, but both are non-retrofocus so they should have very similar look on the ground glass. I also have the Schneider 47mm XL.

The 35mm is probably one of the most difficult lens there is for this system (if not the most difficult), since the shorter focal lengths are retrofocus. I found it easier than I expected to focus it, I do not feel that I need finer gearing or finer grained GG. I'll do more detailed testing of this in the future though. I only had a 5x loupe, but I think a 10x will be perfect for critical focusing. There's no need to remove the fresnel for critical focusing either, that's great.

Anyway, while focus control was better than I expected, the dimness of the ground glass was worse than I expected. I have Linhof GG and fresnel, and a lighthood with magnifier.

It is about equally bad at 35 and 47mm. In an indoor scene when it is not extremely bright, one simply cannot see the whole scene at once. You see a bright spot where the light rays are coming dead on, so if you want to look around you have to move your head around to make the light rays fall straight in your eye. The fresnel improves it a little but not by much. With the light-hood and magnifyer on it is difficult to bend the hood enough to get the magnifyer in position so you can see into the corners.

Only seeing a small spot it may be hard to understand what you actually look at, but since you have your head in the direction of the light you just need to take a peek past the camera to see what the lens looks at in that direction. So it is indeed possible to compose images this way, but it is a bit cumbersome. It helps being a masochist. I expect it to be easier outdoors though, haven't had much time to test it yet. A focusing cloth makes a big difference too it seems.

The obvious solution to this problem would be to have a special wide-angle fresnel. Linhof actually have the fresnel separate, so it can be removed and another could be easily and quickly inserted. Problem is that Linhof only sells one generic fresnel, at least so it seems from the price list I have.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: IanB on April 14, 2012, 01:34:13 pm
I think the problem you are experiencing is generic with non-retrofocus wide field lenses on any view camera. It's the same with film - not exclusive to digital. Basically, you get used to it. As you say, it is much better outdoors.

One thing you may find helpful - I think it is possible to fit an Arca-Swiss binocular viewer on the back of one of these cameras. Using two eyes is better than one, and the tilt in the viewer means that you can move it to view the top and bottom of the screen image very well. Not so good for sideways shift, but it helps considerably nevertheless. Linhof make an adapter for this set-up for the Technikardan etc. (I use one for film work), so it I would not be surprised if the same is available for the M679/Techno back.

HTH
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on April 14, 2012, 02:12:51 pm
I think the problem you are experiencing is generic with non-retrofocus wide field lenses on any view camera. It's the same with film - not exclusive to digital. Basically, you get used to it. As you say, it is much better outdoors.

One thing you may find helpful - I think it is possible to fit an Arca-Swiss binocular viewer on the back of one of these cameras. Using two eyes is better than one, and the tilt in the viewer means that you can move it to view the top and bottom of the screen image very well. Not so good for sideways shift, but it helps considerably nevertheless. Linhof make an adapter for this set-up for the Technikardan etc. (I use one for film work), so it I would not be surprised if the same is available for the M679/Techno back.

HTH

Thanks for the tip, yes the arca binoviewer can be attached to the Techno with the help of an adapter. I tried detatching the magnifier from the lighthood and used some black cloth (actually a black t-shirt) to lengthen that lighthood over my face forming a light-tight funnel to look into, not like the binoviewer but $10 instead of $1000 :-), and it worked quite nicely. It is beyond me why Linhof has light-leaks in their own light-hood/magnifyer design (semi-open design so light falls in on the fresnel), but with the "funnel-focsing-cloth" I can stretch it over these openings too making it dark. I also find it a bit puzzling that they have easily exchangable fresnels but only one available to choose from. I imagine that a fresnel designed for the 35mm focal length would make it a bit brighter than the standard.

Overall my impression of the Techno is that the camera body is very well-designed, but the sliding back and viewing aids could be better.

Anyway, I suppose the 35mm for 36x48mm sensor should have the same issues as 90mm on 4x5" concerning the angle of light in the corners, so the image has only got smaller, but not darker.

I've played around in my dim appartment to really test the limits. I'll survive, but if there was such a thing as a custom fresnel or other solution that made it significantly brighter I'd probably go for it.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: epines on April 14, 2012, 03:05:12 pm
Three things I've found to be a huge help when focusing indoors on a ground glass:

1. Bring a very bright flashlight with you. Place it near whatever you're trying to get sharp, and shine its spot on that area.

2. Place that flashlight next to what you're trying to have sharp, and shine it just to the side of the camera. Now focus on the bright flashlight head. Easy to see whether it's sharp or not.

3. Do the same thing with a laptop or iPad screen. Place it next to whatever you're trying to have sharp, maximize its brightness, and focus on the screen.

ethan
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on April 14, 2012, 03:26:34 pm
focusing indoors with gg = use laser pointer
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: greygrad on April 14, 2012, 05:23:01 pm
The acute ground glass that Linhof recently discontinued for the Techno is superb - much, much brighter than the standard ground glass + fresnel. It's actually a Hasselblad Acute focussing screen in a custom Linhof holder. The holder also has slots for the Hasselblad RMFX finder which is very nice. It's so good I can't figure out why they discontinued it - perhaps there's something new on the way?

(Sorry for the small picture - the only one I could find on the net)
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: epines on April 14, 2012, 06:13:00 pm
focusing indoors with gg = use laser pointer

Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on April 15, 2012, 03:38:12 am
Can you elaborate?

My guess is you point where you want to focus, so you get a red spot there and then you focus on that on the ground glass.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on April 15, 2012, 03:44:11 am
The acute ground glass that Linhof recently discontinued for the Techno is superb - much, much brighter than the standard ground glass + fresnel. It's actually a Hasselblad Acute focussing screen in a custom Linhof holder. The holder also has slots for the Hasselblad RMFX finder which is very nice. It's so good I can't figure out why they discontinued it - perhaps there's something new on the way?

(Sorry for the small picture - the only one I could find on the net)

Interesting! I've mailed with Bill Maxwell of "Maxwell Precision Optics" and he can do a ground glass too, he recommended his "HI-LUX Brilliant Matte 2.3" for my lens selection (35mm non-retrofocus, 47mm non-retrofocus). I may go for that but it will cost some due to a custom adapter is required, but still a lower cost than I expected.

I hope there's something new on the way from Linhof though, much of the criticism digital view cameras get is for the ground glass performance. If I were them I'd do my best to provide the best possible ground glass options.
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on April 15, 2012, 02:50:21 pm
My guess is you point where you want to focus, so you get a red spot there and then you focus on that on the ground glass.

Exactly!
Title: Re: Linhof Techno, can you really focus with it?
Post by: torger on April 16, 2012, 03:07:29 pm
I actually heard a rumour just now from a Linhof dealer that Linhof is working on something concerning the ground glass, but it will probably be a few months still.