Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Gemmtech on February 21, 2012, 10:13:21 am
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I was visiting my niece (professional wedding photographer) and she had some new prints, one of which was a print on metal, but instead of the surface of the metal permeating through (an option) this print was super high gloss and it was beautiful. I tried to find out what the finish was but the girl I spoke with in CS wasn't able to tell me. Does anybody here know of other companies that do this finish?
http://www.blackriverimaging.com/metal-prints-features.asp
"Please note: The metal surface undergoes a special treatment prior to its high-heat exposure. We cannot control the tiny imperfections that may occur during this preparation process. While we make every effort to reduce their visibility when placing your image, we cannot grant remakes solely due to these uncontrollable imperfections."
And off topic, they do offer GICLEÉ Prints
What does the "high heat" do? Why is it needed since they are printing directly to the metal?
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Here are two I know of in Northern California:
Bayphoto (http://www.bayphoto.com/metalprints/)
Magna Chrome (http://www.magnachrome.com/)
Metal prints seem to be really growing in popularity.
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Jim,
Have you seen any of the high gloss prints on white from Magnachrome? Do you know what they mean by Dye-Infused Metal Prints instead of printing on top of the surface?
Thanks for the links, they look very nice.
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Sounds like dye sublimation! Using dye sub inks, inkjet printing onto a transfer media, and then heat pressing the transfer sheet onto the metal. This is commonly used for white tee shirt printing, printing on mouse pads, coffee cups, and even ceramic tiles.
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Or are they heat laminating a hi gloss laminate to the metal?
That would answer their disclaimer about imperfections.
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John,
I don't think it's dye sublimation because they are saying "Dye-Infused" my old Kodak Dye-Sub used 4 ribbons.
Dan,
I asked if it was a laminate and the girl "Dawn" said no, it's a coating, but then why the "High-Heat" even baking a finish in an oven does NOT take high-heat, nor does transfer sheets. Granted, "High-Heat" could be a relative term. The print is gorgeous, nice than acrylic IMHO, I was impressed.
Garry
Ps, Their disclaimer got me thinking, the print I viewed had no such flaws, however it was "only" a 16x24
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Just spoke with another girl and she said they print (like an inkjet) onto a transfer sheet and then use "high-Heat" (didn't know how hot) to bond it to the metal, actually the word is "infused". The girl last evening said there was a clear coating applied, the woman today said there is no coating applied. She also said it is rare that they get a defect, but it does happen, I asked what the tolerance was and naturally she said "I don't know" :-)
So, I still don't really know how they are doing these, time to call another company.....
Garry
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I think "Dye Infused" is more a marketing term. In the description of the process some of the companies actually say
they use dye sublimation.
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Can you point me to which companies claim it's dye-sub? Also, if it were like a t-shirt transfer if wouldn't be so sharp or vibrant. What type of transfer sheet would they have to use to get the level of gloss they are achieving?
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This is from one of the company's you mentioned Black River under the "specs" section. Go down to printing - ink jet, dye sublimation. Many dye sub products are printed on Epson printer's using dye sublimation ink.
http://www.blackriverimaging.com/metal-prints-specs.asp
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Jim,
Have you seen any of the high gloss prints on white from Magnachrome? Do you know what they mean by Dye-Infused Metal Prints instead of printing on top of the surface?
Thanks for the links, they look very nice.
I just got a 16x24 high gloss or white gloss (whatever they call it) from Magna Chrome. It looks very nice. They do achieve a look of high luminescence. Most if not all of the print shops seem to offer four choices. The first two look like normal prints in either gloss or matte. (Gloss is by far the most popular.) Then they offer a "silver" type print in gloss or matte where the silver shows through. They have a strong metallic look. It's like there is no coating applied to them. I don't like them at all.
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I used hi-gloss Magna Chrome on two separate occasions a year or so ago. Ultimately I did not like the product, as it reminded me of 1980's Cibachrome - super high saturation & contrast.
Patrons in my booth showed interest in them, more due to the novelty than anything else - they were floated with a metal hanger behind, and a flush image in front. Almost like printing on a blank traffic sign! I could have forgiven any other less-than-desirable traits, but the over-the-top saturation/contrast was too much for me.
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super high saturation & contrast.
Mine matches my monitor (calibrated Eizo 243) about as closely as I could hope for. It is highly reflective, however, so you need to keep that in mind.
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As far as I know, all of these labs produce these panels the same way. the aluminum blanks are manufactured by a company called ChromaLuxe. They produce specialty aluminum panels prepped with a receptor layer which is either white or clear. The image is printed in reverse on a transfer sheet using Sawgrass dye sub inks with Epson printers (or printers using Epson heads such as Mimaki. Printers using bubble jet technology such as Canon or HP won't' work). The transfer sheet is sandwiched with the aluminum blank and pressure heated to gasify the dyes into the receptor layer.
The ultra smooth finish of the final product is the result of the property of the aluminum blank itself, I don't know any of the major labs that coat them. This is the basic process used by companies such as Bay Photo, WHCC, mPix/Millers/ ACI to name a few.
If you want to do this yourself (not hard) Liberty Photo sells all the necessary stuff, including presses, inks and the Chromaluxe blanks.
One problem is the inks clog very easily so you really need to make some of these almost on a daily basis. Most are printing the transfer sheets on old x800/880 series Epsons.
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Wayne,
What temperature does the press need to be to do the transfer? They all have told me now that there is no coating.
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Wide format sublimation in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2amv-TiYd34)
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Wide format sublimation in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2amv-TiYd34)
Very informative. Conde is one of the US distributors of chroma luxe and probably can provide everything to make these. Liberty photo is another one. Here (http://www.chromaluxe.com/find-a-distributor/) is the complete list of sources.
I'll be producing these at my store in the next couple of months.
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I wonder about the permanence of sublimation inks. My
impression is that they fade much more quickly, even with
a liquid laminate protective coating, than aqueous pigment
inks.
Any information is gratefully appreciated.
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Wayne,
What temperature does the press need to be to do the transfer? They all have told me now that there is no coating.
The typical temp for image transfer to tiles is around 400 degrees.
This link will give you a read on the process:
http://www.bisoncoating.com/Articles.asp?ID=147 (http://www.bisoncoating.com/Articles.asp?ID=147)
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I knew you guys/gals would have the answers. I just wonder why the actual companies producing the prints just can't give you the information.
One of the companies stated the prints were being tested for longevity.
400 degrees is what I would consider high-heat for the photography industry.
Thanks for all the information and the links.
Garry
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The high temps are required for the coating to "open up" and accept the dye sub inks. When cooled, the pores close and the inks are trapped in the finish.
Personally, i'm not all that fond of the look of the metal prints. I DO want try an image on a tile. They make rough looking tiles that might give a really interesting feel to an image.
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There's no doubt that it has to be the "right" image because I'm sure after awhile you would tire of the high gloss.... The image I saw was very nice. How old is this process?
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I knew you guys/gals would have the answers. I just wonder why the actual companies producing the prints just can't give you the information.
One of the companies stated the prints were being tested for longevity.
400 degrees is what I would consider high-heat for the photography industry.
They probably don't know .. they just buy the stuff and make the prints. As far as high heat for photography, dye sublimation really isn't photography, but rather a process that is widely used for many industries. For example, fabric dye sublimation is used for many types of products (such as little league uniforms). As mentioned, the concept behind the process is the heat opens the receptor surface, the ink "gasifies" into that surface, then is trapped there when cooled. I have dye sub mugs that show fading, but not for about 50 rounds through a dishwasher (which of course is hot so it opens the surface some degree).
I wonder about the permanence of sublimation inks. My
impression is that they fade much more quickly, even with
a liquid laminate protective coating, than aqueous pigment
inks.
good question, this process really hasn't been applied to anything that requires long term permanence. However, the dyes are encapsulated and thus protected. I suppose a coating may provide some UV protection. I think the prints will be decent in longevity ... maybe not "archival" to the point of todays pigment ink printers, but I don't think you'll see them fading in a few years unless they are exposed to sunlight or the elements.
Personally I think you can get as good or better look with face mounting to optical acrylic or lexan. The printing to aluminum seems to be a less expensive way to get a similar look.
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I was looking for the same answer here. Are the companies above cater to consumers? I think their market are big time companies as well?
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I believe there is some confusion here. The dye sublimation heat transfer imprinting printers which we are discussing here are not the same thing as say a Kodak 8500. The printers we are discussing here (from what I understand, Wayne correct me if I'm wrong) use a special ink and are basically inkjet technology applying the ink to the transfer sheet. The dye-sub printers have four ribbons and they apply the colors one at a time, the ink goes from a solid to a gas. Dye sub produces true continuous tone whereas an inkjet doesn't, obviously today that's a non-issue. Not sure what you mean when you say "dye sublimation really isn't photography" I agree, it's a printing process as is inkjet; or are you saying dye sublimation heat transfer imprinting isn't photography? Either way, I believe they are all just processes with the latter an added step is needed to create the "Photograph"
I'm trying to dig it up, one company claimed the archival properties of the DSHTI (switch two letters, let's just call it the D-SHIT print :-)) is substantially better than an inkjet, however you must keep it indoors and away from direct sunlight. I'd like to also see a matte finish.
"Personally I think you can get as good or better look with face mounting to optical acrylic or lexan."
They are close, but I do like the fact that I don't need to glue anything on to my print. I have to think about which I like the best, the D-SHIT prints remind me of my poured varnish prints.
Garry
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Looking through the Magna Chrome site, I see no mention of color spaces or profiles. It doesn't appear as if you have any control over how well the print will match the original image.
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Just a musing here...
One of my artists customers prints his images on (I think) a Canon printer and he also had that same image printed onto aluminum just to see how it looked.
If you didn't have the original image HE printed for comparison, it looked pretty good. But, we DID have the original print and compared it to the aluminum print and you could see enough difference in the contrast range to not want the metal one. It lost the depth the original one has.
I figure each has its place in the world, but he won't be replacing any of his images with metal prints any time soon.
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Basically the Kodak and other dye-sub printers are much the same process, same theoretical technology. A solid sheet of dye tight against the paper passes over a head which can infuse each individual pixel with the dye in the ribbon. Because the colors are applied individually, the colors can be stacked on top of each other, resulting in what is often referred to as a continuous tone print. But bottom line it is still 90,000 individual dots in each square inch of paper which appears continuous to us because we can't resolve it. This approach is impractical for large work, but has the most precise control and thus yields an extremely high quality visual print.
The other process takes the approach of applying the dyes to a transfer sheet first in small dots, then infusing them in a separate process. but it's not like they are "liquid", they dry just like other inkjet materials (in fact dry faster ... these printers clog very easily). Because it's inkjet that means they put a lot of smaller dots to achieve color, but the as with any inkjet process again the visual quality can be very good. So to me continuous tone is really a relative term, to define it simply means you can't tell it's made up of a bunch of colored dots or not.
The transfer process will cause the colors to bleed a little, but still pretty sharp. Side by side with other prints it can be obvious, but alone they will look very good. The Magna Chrome site is just another lab that most likely uses the ChromaLuxe blanks to print on metal.
the process can be color managed, challenging and must be done by the printing facility tuned to the exact time, pressure, and temperature of their press. Even more important you always have to increase the density of the original with this process, because not 100% of the dye is transferred, so it takes some trial and error to figure out just how much. It's pretty consistent, but you still have to monitor it, so obviously the lab itself has to do it. Whether any labs offer the profile or not I don't know, but soft proofing would be difficult so guessing not.
As far as quality, most labs deliver a pretty nice print, with lots of saturated colors, plenty of depth and richness. Certainly some images don't benefit, but some are spectacular. they won't be as sharp, but then most files are printed big and are pushing the file anyway, so it's like printing on canvas, it can hide an under resolution file a little.
The appeal is the super smooth finish, also for most they choose the ultra high gloss which even fuji flex doesn't quite match in photo paper, and no inkjet paper is close at all. Very easy to mount and looks very cool, as most put a standout brace on the back so very flat and floats away from the wall. As I mentioned, personally I find face mounting offers a similar quality, but has a lot more going for it. It's also a lot more expensive to produce.
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I have been following this thread with great interest because I have a problem I hope someone could answer. First some background. In 2009, one of my images was chosen as the photograph of the year by the NFL Hall of Fame. During the HOF enshrinement weekend, I was honored with the award, having it presented to me in front of an audience where I was asked to speak. They presented me with a plaque upon which was my image affixed to a sheet of metal(I'm assuming aluminum). Other than the fact that the image was cut off(to fit the plaque), the image was very dark. Don't get me wrong, I was very humbled by the award, and I wasn't about to tell the president and CEO of the NFL HOF(each of whom was on either side of me) or in front of the audience, that the award looked very amateuristic in design and cheap. All the metal surfaces(including the text portions) looked like there was a film covering each piece. When I got home from the weekends festivities, I called the company whose name was on the back of the award and asked them about the film covering and asked if I pulled the film off would it harm the image. At that point in time I had read about prints on aluminum, but I hadn't seen one in person. In essence I was asking them if the film was only for protection for travel purposes and if removing it would it reveal a better quality image. Their reply was that if I pulled the film off the image would come off as well. Since that time, I've been giving thought to having the plaque redone with a better quality image printed on metal(that doesn't have the film covering) and to replace the pieces(that have text) with actual engraved text. While I'm extremal humbled to have won the award, I really feel embarrassed to have it hanging on my wall. Are the metal prints done today of a higher quality than what I received?
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Image Wizards claims to be the originator of this type of photo printing process. http://imagewizards.net/
I have a client that had a dozen or so prints, up to about 60" wide printed by them and he was quite pleased with the results. I believe that they claim 40 or more years for print lifespan, but don't know if it is backed up with any hard data. I was quite surprised at the cost, which was less than I would have anticipated.
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Keith,
That certainly is impressive. I can commiserate with you (I'm a perfectionist), however I think it's what the plaque stands for and as I said, that's mighty impressive.
Wayne,
I couldn't have said it any better myself, at the end of the day it's the image. We don't look at a photo of Abe Lincoln and say, boy is that photo grainy or blurry, we
accept it for the historical significance. Some of the most memorable photos were not taken by a pro... Think of the fireman carrying the baby in Oklahoma.....
As far as dye sublimation printing vs. DSHIT, I believe they actually are different, unless I'm reading it incorrectly, the DSHIT prints are applied via inkjet printer (dithering) onto
a transfer sheet and once pressed and infused it does become continuous tone (I haven't viewed one with a loupe). The dye sub printers (I own a Kodak) uses 4 ribbons of color to transfer the ink to the
paper, in that respect they are similar though no pressure or 400 degree heat is needed. And though no dots are visible with either, the dye sub would certainly be considered
CT even with a 10x loupe but the inkjet wouldn't, however with the naked eye, it's a moot point and today the inkjet prints are nicer....
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Keith, it sounds like the process used to make your plaque was done differently than the one being discussed here. This sounds like a process where a print is transferred to a laminate and then applied over the metal, or applied to the metal somehow then protected with a laminate.
Interesting about ImageWizards, however the process is what it is. The only company that can make the inks I'm pretty sure is Sawgrass (they won a patent dispute with a competitor), so even if they happen to make their own blanks, probably about the same as chroma luxe.It is possible they are much more proficient at it, because there is some skill in getting great results and some labs definitely deliver better quality.
As far as the difference between DSHIT (I had clients calling them something similar to that back in the late '90's when we started offering them), yes their are differences, as I mentioned the ink is in a ribbon. The ribbon and paper is stretched very tight, no real pressure is needed, and the head gets very hot. The receptor coat on the paper opens under much lower temperatures however, because it is designed for that and the process is only heating 1/300th of an inch of paper/ribbon at a time. One other big difference is the amount of dye transferred is based on the temperature the head drives each pixel. But the underlying technology is basically the same, heating a receptor and ink till it gasifies. Because this process allows each pixel to have it's own color, rather than having to dithering 8 or 10 dots of ink to create the color, the results are very good.
My guess is with a loupe you can probably even make out the screen in the aluminum prints, so the difference is much like the difference between a Lamda/Lightjet/chromira print vs an Epson or Canon print.
Interestingly enough, because the Kodak ML500 or 8600 printers are dye sub, you can disable the application of the clear coat, and actually use them to transfer images to other things. Smash them against a receptive coat, heat it up, and about 75% of the ink transfers. this is how we made photo ceramic mugs for many years as well as a few other novelty products.
We're pretty excited to offer aluminum prints at our store, only up to 20x24 at first, but we are also introducing face mounted museum and acrylic as well and we are getting a lot of interest in that. Both have a nice look when done right, lots of applications in displaying the final work.
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Wayne,
I'm not going to have my usual desire to buy all the equipment to make prints, I'm going to order some from the various suppliers mentioned here, so the question to you is when will yours
be available?
Garry