Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: fainer on February 11, 2012, 06:15:05 pm
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So I was outside today for a quick shoot it was about -16 degree celsius, I got through one roll of film and then couldn't shoot another picture, after changing film the camera kept saying starting app.. and would shut off and on again. the shutter wouldn't go at all. Very weird, I tried changing batteries and removing and replacing the lens, which didn't help at all. Also manually shutting of camera off and on again didn't work. I'm very surprised that such an expensive piece of gear couldn't work in the cold, although I guess the camera is meant for more studio use. Any ideas?
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The Hy6 is a great camera, perhaps the best MF camera out there. However, of all the one's I have worked with it's the worst in cold weather. Just took my Pentax 645D out in the Chicago winter, fingers frozen, worked like charm. The Hy6 would have stopped working after a few minutes. At least that has been my experience.
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Ok So I'm not the only one, thanks a lot. I was hoping it wasn't a defect or something, I read in the manual just now that it says to keep the battery in your pocket but I don't think that would of helped for too long. Thanks again for the feedback. I was using a Nikon D2X before and I could have left it outside all night and picked it up and shot with it a minute after, so I was surprised. The Hy6 is still very new to me so hopefully the results will be good from that one roll of film..
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I was using a Nikon D2X before and I could have left it outside all night and picked it up and shot with it a minute after, so I was surprised. The Hy6 is still very new to me so hopefully the results will be good from that one roll of film..
Things can only go down when coming from a D2x class camera for tough outdoor usage, they are just light years ahead of anything MF except the 645D.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I read this article about the H4D-40 recently:
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/news/the-naked-mountain-reveals-all-to-an-h4d-40.aspx
It will be interesting to see how it holds up in those extreme conditions.
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Most likely this is the batteries and not the camera. Rollei 6000 series used to have a remote battery that you could keep in your pocket and thus keep warm but I don't know of anything available for the Hy6/AFi as of yet. Next time try warming up the batteries one one of your inside pockets and let us know if that helps.
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As a Rollei 6008AF owner I can say that it was my worst outdoor shooting experience in cold weather.. If you didn't want to rely on 'power adapter' solution (you simply entered a battery to your pocket wired to an adapter shaped like a battery put inside the Rollei body), you'd have to insert the battery to the camera only when you're shooting and keep it in internal pocket all the time.. That was irritating.. Hy6 is a totally different but it has been designed by Rollei so who knows, maybe the battery problem haunts them :)
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Actually the battery issue for both platforms is for me at least resolved. With the replacement upgraded cells the 6000 series camera can get like 700 shots in on a single charge and the new cells don't get flat just sitting in the camera bag. On the Hy6, I never counted but easily 500 shots probably double that. It's just not a worry anymore.
For me the big battery problem went from the camera to the back. The Leaf AFi-ii 12 (aptus 12R) gets just about 100 frames per battery and sometimes less. It's a real bother. The AFi-ii 7 which I also have does much better on the batteries.
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Yes the Aptus is a hungry little beast. I must have 10 batteries by now. I have a dual battery system in my 4x4 with a solar panel and inverter to charge batteries when in places like Lesoto far from electricity.
Don't think I've ever been at -16C. Heading to Lesotho this coming winter and I expect it to be around -5. Any advice would be welcome.
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For me the big battery problem went from the camera to the back. The Leaf AFi-ii 12 (aptus 12R) gets just about 100 frames per battery and sometimes less. It's a real bother. The AFi-ii 7 which I also have does much better on the batteries.
At what temp?
I'll never forget my Mamiya ZD having less than 10 (ten) frames autonomy at -15C will a fully charged fresh battery coming straight out of my inner pocket.
Cheers,
Bernard
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My second hy6 had this very problem which was very irritating as it occured during a shoot - luckily I had a 1DSII in the bag to finish the job.
It went back to Germany and since then it has been a wonderful camera - no battery issues though.
I still consider it the best, the ergonomics are fantastic and I prefer working with a chimney finder. I rarely use it in a studio - it's been to the North sea twice in very low temperatures!
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2 Years ago I used a Hy6 during ski-vacation in cold weather a couple of times. -10 Celsius and less side by side with a D3x.
My Hy6 worked fine. My Nikon 24-70 got stuck (zooming mechanism) and I had to send it to Nikon.
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It went back to Germany and since then it has been a wonderful camera
Interesting. I wonder what they changed? Do you have any more details?
The manual says the working temperatures are from -20C to +60C, so the camera should work.
I concur with your statement about the ergonomics. I just bought a Hy6 myself. The camera just feels very smooth.
Best, Joris.
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I never really had a problem with the Hy6 itself in cold weather, but I was using a sinar back that did not last very long at all...the film back seemed to do fine. Then again, it probably was just a bit under freezing, not -16...
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I don't think it's worth sending back to Germany, I really don't think there's anything wrong with the camera. The manual I read says -10C not -20, so I think like Eric says it's a battery issue. I guess I will have to retest this. Man so I guess it really is cold in Canada, most of you say -5 is cold hehe. That's like fall weather up here. lol. :D
*PS thanks for everyones responses, very helpful.
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The manual I read says -10C not -20, so I think like Eric says it's a battery issue.
Not that it really matters but there's two references to temperature in the manual,
the practical tip to keep the batteries warm below -10C (page 64) and the working temperature -20C - +60C in the specs (page 86).
Best, Joris.
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Upon reflection, certainly the Sinar back gave up very quickly in the cold. Some camera functionality appeared limited also quite soon, but it's a while back when I used it last. Never used the Hy6 with film. As a whole, the P645D seems much for robust in any wheather. As a result, the Hy6 has moved into the studio where it seems more at home.
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Indeed I enjoy my Hy6 in the studio and it does perform there as a champ, same as I find it to do outdoors. It is with the AFi-II 12 the very best camera I have ever owned and feels as a much continuing growing joy to use. That said, will take it wherever on the planet where I wish to take a picture. That excludes most below zero degrees, not because of the Hy6, but because of me. It is too f$$$$$ cold to take a picture in below freezing! ;) Surely if we have to take it there, same as us it will need some protection and special care???
Weather sealing on cameras is much overrated and much a marketing gig (unless for the select few that have to use a camera careless in such conditions). The rest of us take proper care of the camera and use it within its limits.
Best regards,
Anders
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I guess mostly to prove the point, my Hy6 decided to agree with my side of the story and shut down the mirror after only a few shots and about half an hour walk outside here in Chicago. 60 degree I guess. Back in my office I held it in front of my space heater and the mirror happily jumped back in position a minute later. It's working fine now.
Conclusions. (i) I love the Hy6 nevertheless, I guess, until it shuts down. (ii) Never happened with my Pentax 645D.
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60 degrees? Hmmm.... that's about what it is year round in San Francisco :o ... have used three bodies here in that kind of weather without any trouble. Hope you are not getting the dreaded mirror locked up issue a few people have reported about.
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Thanks, Eric. That might be part of the issue. What to do about the mirror locked up issue?
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Weather sealing on cameras is much overrated and much a marketing gig (unless for the select few that have to use a camera careless in such conditions). The rest of us take proper care of the camera and use it within its limits.
No, it is not.
The problem is not rain protection, the problem is condensation. There are some shooting situations where it simply cannot be avoided however careful you are.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Took mine on a jaunt to the Amazon headwaters, walking through jungles. Nary a problem. of course, had to keep a towel handy to keep the drips off the camera (mostly). Each night it went in a dry bag with desiccant to dry out. I think that's pretty important, especially with several days in 90%+ humidity.
Its also been out in the cold in Chicago as well for New Years day in the wind below 30º as well. But did have a mirror lockup problem once on a shoot and it wouldn't come down at all. I sent it back to the guys in Germany to fix. Alls well now.
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I guess off to the Fatherland it is then. $$
Perhaps some bodies better than others. The problem of condensation and cold weather has been reported elsewhere as well though - even though this time it likely wasn't the reason.
Thanks, All!
Geoff - we still have to get together. Now it's April.
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No, it is not.
The problem is not rain protection, the problem is condensation. There are some shooting situations where it simply cannot be avoided however careful you are.
Cheers,
Bernard
I would argue that with very good weather sealing it is also more difficult for condensation (humid) to escape from inside camera body... and that the best is to know how to deal with it rather.
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I would argue that with very good weather sealing it is also more difficult for condensation (humid) to escape from inside camera body... and that the best is to know how to deal with it rather.
Ever done snow camping with a camera?
If you have and managed to find a way to prevent condensation I am interested in hearing how you managed.
If you have not... well...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Ever done snow camping with a camera?
If you have and managed to find a way to prevent condensation I am interested in hearing how you managed.
If you have not... well...
Cheers,
Bernard
Perhaps you should stay Nikon???
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Perhaps you should stay Nikon???
Sure, but that is not the point.
The point is about the relevance of advising others about an important purchase decision based on information that you have not validated yourself.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Um Bernard, since you brought up relevance to the topic and validated personal experience - what information about using Hy6's in the cold do you have to share? You really ought to try one - they're super!
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Um Bernard, since you brought up relevance to the topic and validated personal experience - what information about using Hy6's in the cold do you have to share? You really ought to try one - they're super!
Clearly none and I applogize for having reacted to Anders' DSLRs comments in this MF thread.
Note that I didn't write anything about the Hy6 though. My comments were purely about the importance of proper weather sealing in some situations.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I agree with Eric in that the Hy6 is a fantastic camera. Over the years, my Hy6 and other Rolleis (6008i, predecessors) have been just much for sensitive to all sorts of things, be it cold, humidity, frequent use etc.. Looks like Eric is correct with the mirror time-out issue I had last weekend.
In contrast, my Pentax 645 cameras (645nii, 645D) have been so much more reliable and predictable on all levels.
However, when comparing perfectly exposed files when everthing is working, the 33mp Dalsa files of the eMotion 75 seem to be so much nicer than the 39mp Pentax 645D files, which are already stunning. The Hy6 lenses seem to be one part of the equation, but the back is also just really neat.
Thus, for me, I most often prefer the Pentax 645D for outdoors while the Hy6 seems to be better in the studio. Just thought I'd share this experience.
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Lacunapratum (sorry I forgot your name) - there was a guy who recently had a complete set - something like 13 rollei 6000 series lenses converted to work with the pentax 645D on ebay. I don't think they sold - but clearly he went to a lot of trouble and expense to take advantage of these with the Pentax 645D. If you like the rollei glass but want to use pentax outdoors....
Bernard - all ok - and you're right the sealing is an issue for all cameras but certainly also true with the Rollei platform. It's weakest sealing point is probably the lenses. Some have an opening window on the top of the barrel to view the aperture setting - this allows both dirt and moisture into the threaded part of the inside for focus adjust - I don't think the dust can get in between the optical elements this way but still its a bit of a bother. I put tape over mine now when shooting outside in dirty environments. The worst offenders are the lenses that go through big volume changes during zoom and focusing as this pushes and pulls air in and out of the lens and even cameras. I had canon 100-400 zoom that was fantastic ... at getting dust on the sensor.
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I also saw those Pentax conversions ;D. Could have been me, but I have way too much Pentax glass already to do that. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Pentax has a great set of telephoto lenses that Rollei can't match. I guess the only lenses worth adapting would be the 2.8/50mm and 4.5/55mm Super-Angulons, but I'll wait a year or so until Pentax has new zooms in that range.
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Probably a lot of us were watching those then. ;) But I did sort of cringe thinking about gutting the leaf shutters out of these.
Interesting to read which you'd think worthy of conversion. I use the schneider 60mm and 90mm probably the most, but also the 40, 50, 110 and 150. I don't think you'll find a better lens in any of the MF platforms than the schneider 90mm for Rollei.
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Can't resist hijacking the thread for a response ;D. Well you are coming from a Rollei perspective and I agree with you on your choices, but I wouldn't be able to single out a Rollei lens which isn't superb. The 300mm and 150mm Apo-Symmar come to mind as well and the incomparable 180mm.
I was coming from the Pentax perspective and the only real hole in the system is the focal length range around 45 - 55mm. Well, I could adapt the P67 55mm permanently. But in this range Rollei has the 40mm, the 50mm, and the 55mm, and all of them superb, compared to their Pentax counterparts.
I agree with you on the Curtagen, which is outstanding in Retro position as well. Great for macro. I also agree with you on the 90mm Schneider, but Pentax has an almost equally strong 120mm. If I really need a shorter focal length, there is also a 95mm Printing Nikkor I have adapted for Pentax and a 105mm S-Orthoplanar.
I guess the second weakness of the Pentax system in terms of lenses is the 110mm Planar equivalent. Pentax has a fast 150mm/2.8, which is very nice with similar characteristics, but it's boring compared to the 110mm Planar. I have adapted a WWII 120mm/2 Schneider Goetting Xenon, which is certainly wild, but somewhat less presentable than the Planar :P.
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Wow sounds like you know your lenses well! I know nothing of the Pentax lenses but indeed I also use my 60mm curtagon in retro on occasion.
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I reciplicate the compliment ;). BTW - the 60mm Curtagon can also be hacked on the P645D. There is one for the elusive Exakta 66 series which can easily be fitted on the Pentax with a P6 adapter. It is very sharp, but it appears to mess with the P645 light meter from time to time.
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It is worthwhile to remind of the OP;
So I was outside today for a quick shoot it was about -16 degree celsius, I got through one roll of film and then couldn't shoot another picture, after changing film the camera kept saying starting app.. and would shut off and on again. the shutter wouldn't go at all. Very weird, I tried changing batteries and removing and replacing the lens, which didn't help at all. Also manually shutting of camera off and on again didn't work. I'm very surprised that such an expensive piece of gear couldn't work in the cold, although I guess the camera is meant for more studio use. Any ideas?
@ Bernard,
The point is about the relevance of advising others about an important purchase decision based on information that you have not validated yourself.
Clearly none and I applogize for having reacted to Anders' DSLRs comments in this MF thread.
Note that I didn't write anything about the Hy6 though. My comments were purely about the importance of proper weather sealing in some situations.
The OP did not request advice for a new camera to purchase.
Your comment "based on information that you have not validated yourself" is false accusation and offensive. Same as you do, I speak of my experience. However I speak of experience from owning and using Hy6 and having owned a number of medium format cameras (which you have not, per memory you only had ZD). Plus Leaf backs which I have owned over nearly five years and find flawless in any condition I have taken them.
Regarding DSLR, I mere hinted that you should perhaps stay with that because that seems what you all over LuLa like to write of (including that stitching technique that shows up in nearly every thread you can remotely write it). I politely do not share your opinion or means.
You asked for advise for your camping in snow... perhaps following (from above) can help, along with simply leaving it in a bag until the camera's temperature is same as outside where you wish to photograph?
Took mine on a jaunt to the Amazon headwaters, walking through jungles. Nary a problem. of course, had to keep a towel handy to keep the drips off the camera (mostly). Each night it went in a dry bag with desiccant to dry out. I think that's pretty important, especially with several days in 90%+ humidity.
Its also been out in the cold in Chicago as well for New Years day in the wind below 30º as well. But did have a mirror lockup problem once on a shoot and it wouldn't come down at all. I sent it back to the guys in Germany to fix. Alls well now.
Your two posts above invited me to write to defend my opinion --- thus to waste my time. I appreciate if we can avoid such and mere stick to facts in future. After all I did reply to you politely with my experience for you in a thread on D800 recent, even though I really do not like or care for DSLRs myself, but I do recognize that everyone do not prefer same tools as I do.
I maintain to all readers that per my experience the key is to maintain gear proper protected and shielded against weather elements and one have none or few problems. If however one need to shoot in extreme conditions to choose a camera wisely, and for medium format then perhaps a mechanical camera such as an Alpa, Cambo and the like, which may well beat a DSLR due to humidity and condensation... Do some research!
Best regards,
Anders
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I also agree with you on the 90mm Schneider, but Pentax has an almost equally strong 120mm. If I really need a shorter focal length, there is also a 95mm Printing Nikkor I have adapted for Pentax and a 105mm S-Orthoplanar.
It will be interesting to see how the new 90mm Pentax 645 lens performs. And you will not have to figure out a way to mount it. ;)
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It'll be awful. Even more difficult to decide which one to take 8).
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Let me jump in this question albeit belatedly. My mileage with the Hy6 / AFi in cold weather varies. At the end of February last year I took my Rolleiflex Hy6 (and film back) to the winter wonderland of the Swiss Alps. When I was shooting at over 2000m and with cold wind, I got the same behavior as the original poster exposed: the camera switching itself on and off, as if in a loop. Very hard to take images under those circumstances. In the end I managed a number of shots, while switching of the AF and in between reboots of the camera software. Afterwards the camera went back to DHW for review. It came back with its system software reinstalled (no further explanation) and I have not noticed this behavior again (but, admittedly, I do not recall having used the Hy6 body under similar circumstances again).
Now, the interesting part is that, in March this year, I was on a short trip to Iceland but this time with the Leaf AFi (and film back). At some point, again with cold wind and temperatures hovering below minus, a similar behavior showed up - the camera switching itself on and off. I did not send back the body for review and will ask the question to DHW.
Not sure if this can definitively be traced back to cold weather situations but it is something to be further investigated.
Pascal
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Update - now that I think of it, the 'repaired' Hy6 did not expose those issues anymore when I handled it in the Swiss mountains in January this year. Meanwhile DHW confirmed that the AFi should be sent in for the same 'repair' as the Hy6.