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Equipment & Techniques => Pro Business Discussion => Topic started by: Johnny_Boy on February 09, 2012, 04:12:51 pm

Title: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on February 09, 2012, 04:12:51 pm
I am prepping for my first art fair shows this year. While I am based in Washington, I am planning to hit some of the Oregon shows next year. I’ve noticed that a show in Portland says no photographic print on canvas allowed, and another show in Bend has a requirement saying the photographic prints must have limited edition of 250 or less.

Well, after much research and thinking, I was going to go with canvas prints that are open editions.

So, I can’t apply to either of these shows which is unfortunate since there aren’t that many art shows around where I live. I am assuming I should make my prints Limited Edition now, if I ever going to make that happen in the future, which puts me in a position where I should make a call on whether to skip these shows or abide by their rules for all the shows that I am doing.

Is this a large trend in general for these type of venue? Why would canvas print not allowed? And why enforce limited edition? So far my research seems to show that it is because other artists in different medium complained, so the show puts up these dumb rules.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Peter McLennan on February 09, 2012, 10:02:43 pm
Just like in the telecommunications biz.  Artificial Scarcity.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: dgberg on February 11, 2012, 04:08:39 am
Did you call and ask why canvas is not allowed.
Quite bizarre, or more to the point,shallow.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on February 11, 2012, 02:06:05 pm
I've shot them an email asking, so we will see what they say. The show is called Art in the Pearl (http://www.artinthepearl.com) in Portland, Oregon.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: bill t. on February 11, 2012, 06:32:29 pm
I think that may reflect a bias of the organizers of the show.  Just sour grapes it, and move on.

I've been in some pretty decent shows lately and they just love us canvas guys as far as I can tell.  Don't be discouraged.  And avoid doing editions, just tell people you're an honest person and you want to stay that way.  And editions aren't as limiting as most people assume, ask Thomas Kinkade about that.  For instance in most states you can perfectly legally have multiple editions of the same image.  In actual practice at art fairs, "limited edition" seems to be applied to prints-in-a-bag-in-a-bin but not to framed pieces or gallery wraps on the walls.  Just scribble "19/25" somewhere on the matte, you're good to go.

I can think of several shows in the country right now where you can gross many $10k's with the right stuff, and none of them is anti-canvas.  But don't think you'll get into one of those on your first try, somebody usually has to die for a new space to open up.

I see 5 shows in Washington listed on Zapplication.org, and I am sure there are more.  I have no idea how worthwhile they are, but other artists in your area will have a good notion of which ones are worth the trouble.  But be sure to check with those who know, a bad art festival is a miserable experience.

The Spokane Artfest looks like it might be a decent show, only 20 days left to apply.  $425 for a booth is towards the low end of what worthwhile shows charge.  There is some BS in the descriptions about purity in photography or some such, just ignore it.  I'm in several shows with the same boilerplate nonsense that hasn't changed for the last 3 decades and nobody pays any attention to it.

Anway, zapplication.org is an excellent resource.  It tends to be off the radar of amateurish show organizers and that's a very good thing.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: mediumcool on February 13, 2012, 09:26:21 pm
I have never made a photographic print on “canvas”. Why not? Because doing so is tantamount to mimicking/borrowing from painting. I believe photography after all these years should be appreciated for its own strengths, not by aping another aesthetic process.

0.02.  ;D
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on February 13, 2012, 09:58:08 pm
Photography is relatively new medium for fine art, and the media we use have been evolving for a while now. Started with paper, then plastic (RC on paper or polyester), and now to canvas. I don't necessarily think that photo on canvas is somehow not as pure as photo on paper. Painters started on the paper before photography got to it by a wide margin. I don't think we are somehow aping the aesthetic process of painting, because we are also printing on papers.

I bet in 30 years we will no longer print on paper at all anyways. We will give away a 60" wide gamut LCD screens free ($5 whole sale price) with the purchase of our photos. :-)  

Back to the original topic, based on my research, it looks like photos on canvas are banned in certain venues because generally they decided to ban reproduction of paintings on canvas for painters/pastel/acrylic/etc. I guess the customers were confused or conned into buying reproduction paintings on canvas, because they look almost indistinguishable to many.

I guess after that, the painters complained that if they couldn't do it, then why allow photographers! So then, it was banned for photographers as well. Also, it looks like some painters complained that some of the "impressionistic" photos printed on canvas looked too much like paintings and that it was eating into their sales by offering at cheaper cost than their originals. As always, there are always politics involved, even in art.

After that debate, it goes into a bloodbath of argument between painters and photographers whether photos printed on papers can even be considered original when there are so many of them. ...

And since many venues blocks painters from selling reproductions, or only allow it if it is "Limited Edition", the painters wanted the same restriction for the photographers....sigh...so, now we are stuck with same "Limited Edition" rule. 
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: mediumcool on February 13, 2012, 10:01:11 pm
Photography is relatively new medium for fine art …

150+ years? But relatively, yes, you’re right.  ;D
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: louoates on February 13, 2012, 10:35:06 pm
I'd certainly let the organizers know that you won't be there because of that rule. About 5 years ago I wanted to show in an Illinois art festival that was open only to those who were juried in. Okay. But they required you to mail in film transparencies of 5 images for the judging. I emailed them that I would not be participating due to the time to do all that and the high cost of transparencies. I did attend that show and talk to the art gallery owner who was in charge of the applications. I reminded him of why I didn't show there. His response, along with scratching his head, was "Yea, we didn't get many entries. Next year maybe we'll take emailed entries."
My point is that it's up to us to be heard, loud and clear, that some rules are silly and there are still lots of us who won't put up with such nonsense.

The canvas restriction is very strange. But it does make sense in the mind of those who view painters prints on canvas as a threat to their own sales. I made canvas prints for artists for art show sales for many years until the on-line printers cut much of the profit out of that segment. And I ran into many artists who refused to offer paper or canvas prints and were truly angry at seeing their competitors ringing up very profitable print sales. For a while I explained Marketing 101 to them: that of the 80,000 folks who walked that show there were thirty thousand folks who could pop for a $75 print and maybe a few hundred who could spend $800 on an original. Many eventually came around to making prints. Some evidently decided to lobby for idiotic restrictions to restrain other more savvy artists.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: bill t. on February 13, 2012, 11:47:57 pm
Hey!  I make big prints on canvas because it's the only sane way to make really big prints!  No glass, just for starters!  That's exactly the reason oil painters use canvas, although many of them would actually prefer to be using board.  And the only way I could TRULY distinguish my photography as a unique art form is if I was making Daguerreotypes which is just too boring.   :)

Is the canvas thing a disease of the Northwest?  We sure don't have it here in the Southwest, as far as I know.

The best shows around here are organized by commercial producers with a profit motive.  They are extremely good organizers and promoters.  Attendance is great.  They have certain standards such as no imported art, no manufactured art, etc.  The most important standard is that the artist must be present in the booth for the entire show, with only the type of work they submitted for judging.  Photos-on-canvas with the artist attendant in the booth is no problem at all.

The organizers make most of their money on admission by public attendees, and they want those guys to come back next year.  The best way to do that is to provide a wide range of art that is of high quality, where at least some of it is affordable to the average attendee.  And no schlock, that's important too.  The oil painters hold down the high ground, we canvas photographers hold the middle ground.  I have very nice looking work priced within reach of the middle class, and I usually get pre-accepted invitations and prominent booth locations from the important shows around here for just that reason.  Moderately priced, quality art encourages attendance.  The more the attendees, the more the organizers make, the more everybody will sell, and the more exposure even the finest of the fine artists will get.

The majority of the public has no acceptance problems at all with photos on canvas versus oils on canvas, they just buy the image that moves them the most.  Or the art that best color coordinates with the sofa.

And interestingly, the only complaints I ever get directly are from other photographers, not from painters!  Too bad guys, you're priced too high.  You gotta stop farming out that printing and framing, and you need to start doing sofa-sized!
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: mediumcool on February 14, 2012, 12:02:26 am
I don't necessarily think that photo on canvas is somehow not as pure as photo on paper.

pure |pyoŏr|
adjective

not mixed or adulterated with any other substance or material
without any extraneous and unnecessary elements

Aping
verb  [trans.]

imitate the behaviour or manner of (someone or something), esp. in an absurd or unthinking way: new architecture can respect the old without aping its style.

.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: bill t. on February 14, 2012, 05:00:49 pm
In regards to printing on canvas, I can not find words to express the deep remorse and self-loathing I feel at the end of the day as I run the credit card batch file.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on February 14, 2012, 05:36:21 pm
Is the canvas thing a disease of the Northwest?  We sure don't have it here in the Southwest, as far as I know.

Bill, BTW in Washington, afaik, there is no limitation on photo on canvas. Just this one Portland, Oregon show.  I think I am going to skip  that for now. I might consider it when I can get face mounting process perfected and/or can outsource it for cheap.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: bill t. on February 14, 2012, 07:37:18 pm
Facemount is kinda iffy for art fairs.  Very easy to scratch with all the handling that is required at a fair, and the tiniest scratch pretty much ruins the print.  With facemount there is a tendency to think the plex is still a protective shield, but it is in fact the new, permanent face of the print and almost as delicate as a bare print.

Scratches on plex look really trashy in any kind of hard lighting such as most gallery lighting.  And even careful attempts to clean plex are likely to introduce scratches.  OTOH you can perfectly fix a scratched or scraped canvas coating in a few seconds with a tiny brush and a little bottle of coating.

Another art fair related issue with either plex or glass is when you wind up across the aisle from a jeweler.  Those guys invariably have dazzling little bulbs in their cases to create luscious highlights on the jewelry.  Those same little lights will show up to very bad effect on the surfaces of your glazing, and even anti-reflective glazing will suffer.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Justan on February 15, 2012, 01:46:43 pm
Bill, BTW in Washington, afaik, there is no limitation on photo on canvas. Just this one Portland, Oregon show.  I think I am going to skip  that for now. I might consider it when I can get face mounting process perfected and/or can outsource it for cheap.


There are a few shows in the area that don't permit photos on canvas.

The loss is theirs.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on February 15, 2012, 02:37:05 pm
Thanks Justan. Which shows would that be, so I can avoid them? :-)
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Justan on February 15, 2012, 03:06:34 pm
I don’t keep records of that stuff as it shows up in the call to artists, or in the fine print, but iirc there was 1 or 2 in the islands last year & similar number on Seattle side of the sound.

Related, I spoke with a gallery owner recently who told me that she didn’t like photos on canvas and didn’t allow them in her gallery. I told her she was missing a great opportunity for selling as customers typically love them.

As mentioned above, zapplication is an oaky resource for the area, but very few of the local events make it to their notice. If you’re interested in the Portland area, there is a current call for the Salem Arts Festival listed in https://www.zapplication.org but it ends pretty soon.

Here’s a couple of other references that you may find useful

http://www.washingtonfairsandfestivals.com/

http://www.artguidenw.com/artevents.htm
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: bill t. on February 15, 2012, 08:01:39 pm
In these New Mexico parts we are seeing quite a few art fairs organized by schools.  You would want to avoid most of them at any cost, but there is one high school fair in Albuquerque that gets a surprisingly upscale showing of artists and buyers.   They're mostly held just before Xmas, and come to think of it there were way too many of them last year.  

I used to do one several years ago until the organizers killed it by admitting sellers who were importing cutesy stuff from China.  That was the end of it, the fine art buying clientele and the artists bailed out and the show died the next year.  The organizers make or break art fairs, much could be written on that and that's one reason high end fairs are worth the money and worth the wait.  But if you do your research you may find a diamond in the rough at the local high school gym.  Just don't count on it.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Deardorff on March 07, 2012, 01:55:29 am
How many of your images have sold more than 250 prints?

Instead of complaining of no Canvas prints, move on. There are plenty of shows that allow them. This show is probably trying to avoid the crowd that buys photos to match the couch or wallpaper pattern. So many cheap photo types print on canvas as it is "instant art" they probably cut out a lot of the low end shooters with a restriction like this.

Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: louoates on March 07, 2012, 11:53:39 am
How many of your images have sold more than 250 prints?

Instead of complaining of no Canvas prints, move on. There are plenty of shows that allow them. This show is probably trying to avoid the crowd that buys photos to match the couch or wallpaper pattern. So many cheap photo types print on canvas as it is "instant art" they probably cut out a lot of the low end shooters with a restriction like this.



By "low end shooters" are you referring to those of us making good money selling photo prints on canvas? For the galleries selling my canvasses 75% of them are for matching the couch and wallpaper. I'm proud to be serving the public need with my work and getting paid well for it.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Jim Coda on March 11, 2012, 03:25:22 pm
I am prepping for my first art fair shows this year.


I'm not sure if you're prepping for your first shows ever or the early shows for this year.  If you haven't done these before then I recommend you do some research on each show you're thinking of entering.  Contact the photographers from last year and ask them how they did and go to the shows this year that you're thinking of entering next year to find out how the photographers are doing.  It's hard to make money at most of the shows and they are a lot of work.   In my area (San Francisco Bay Area) the number of good photographers that are doing the typical city/town art show has fallen precipitously due, I assume, to the economy.  They've been replaced by those selling t-shirts and toe rings.   

Even the shows with big reputations in the S.F. Bay Area that charge high booth fees and an entrance fee seem to have been hard-hit.  I went to the Sausalito Art Show in September 2010 and the photographers I talked to were complaining about having made hardly any money. 

 
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on March 11, 2012, 05:17:43 pm
I'm not sure if you're prepping for your first shows ever or the early shows for this year.  

It would be my first show EVER! :-) I have done quite a bit of research so far and talked to a lot of experienced folks here in LuLa to get some tips. Folks have been very helpful here on LuLa.

I picked three shows that I research quite a lot about, but I was thinking ahead about other shows in the near region for the next year.

I thought about emailing previous photographers on the shows and asking them like you suggested, but I wasn't sure if they will be forth coming, as I will be their competitors. Thoughts? I purchased and read the Art Festival Guide book and it seems to indicate that most show folks are weary of sharing any info with the new comers for various reasons.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Jim Coda on March 11, 2012, 06:50:51 pm
I thought about emailing previous photographers on the shows and asking them like you suggested, but I wasn't sure if they will be forth coming, as I will be their competitors. Thoughts? I purchased and read the Art Festival Guide book and it seems to indicate that most show folks are weary of sharing any info with the new comers for various reasons.


I wouldn't hesitate to ask them.  You've got nothing to lose.  A phone call might get you a better answer than an e-mail.  Try to go to Portland and/or Bend this year.  I'd wait until Sunday afternoon to talk to them.  Most people will talk if they aren't busy.   You'll get to see what others are selling and you'll learn how you stack up against the competition.  If there doesn't seem to be much serious competition it may mean you could do well there, but it could also mean the show doesn't attract people interested in buying art and the good artists figured that out long ago.  Needless to say, those shows are to be avoided.   
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: framah on March 16, 2012, 01:36:25 pm
In regards to printing on canvas, I can not find words to express the deep remorse and self-loathing I feel at the end of the day as I run the credit card batch file.

Picture a Chris Matthews "HA!" here!!
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: JohnBrew on March 16, 2012, 09:02:54 pm
I have never made a photographic print on “canvas”. Why not? Because doing so is tantamount to mimicking/borrowing from painting. I believe photography after all these years should be appreciated for its own strengths, not by aping another aesthetic process.

0.02.  ;D

Ditto. I could not have said it better.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: louoates on March 17, 2012, 11:16:05 am
When I'm selling photographs at an art show, a gallery, or from my home studio or web site I have a business. If I were to ignore requests to make canvas prints for customers my business would suffer.  So I'm happy to provide what the market is demanding. And I make a larger profit margin per sale.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: leuallen on March 23, 2012, 02:14:37 pm
I make images - just so happens that photography is the only means I have any skill at achieving a result. If a canvas print enhances my image over other means, so be it. If a fine black and white on a good paper fits the image better, that is fine also.

Larry
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Jim Coda on March 30, 2012, 12:44:01 pm
I am prepping for my first art fair shows this year. While I am based in Washington, I am planning to hit some of the Oregon shows next year. I’ve noticed that a show in Portland says no photographic print on canvas allowed, and another show in Bend has a requirement saying the photographic prints must have limited edition of 250 or less.

Is this a large trend in general for these type of venue? Why would canvas print not allowed? And why enforce limited edition?


Here is a great forum for you:  http://artshowforums.com/forum/ (http://artshowforums.com/forum/)

One thread had a discussion on canvas bans. Sorry, I don't recall the title of the thread, but "canvas" was probably in the title.
 
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: philbaum on June 13, 2012, 10:24:25 am
Hey!  I make big prints on canvas because it's the only sane way to make really big prints!  No glass, just for starters!  That's exactly the reason oil painters use canvas, although many of them would actually prefer to be using board.  And the only way I could TRULY distinguish my photography as a unique art form is if I was making Daguerreotypes which is just too boring.   :)
.....
The majority of the public has no acceptance problems at all with photos on canvas versus oils on canvas, they just buy the image that moves them the most.  Or the art that best color coordinates with the sofa...

Bill - I agree.  The reasons i went to canvas were not to imitate painters, but:
a. weight, large canvas prints are much easier handled and transported than traditional framed prints.

b. Some show organizers don't allow glass over prints, especially if its going to be mailed in.  I had a 1' by 3' framed print that the customer dropped while taking it off the display wall.  shattered the glass and frame - whoops - don't want that now :-)

c. Reflections - its so nice to be able to view a print without all those reflections on the surface that come with glass and even plex to some degree. Museum glass is so expensive.

d. As far as "purity" goes, a lot of painters are scanning their paintings, and using that digital jpeg to make additional ink-jet printed "painted" canvases.  There's nothing wrong with that, IMO, but its certainly not "traditional" to use ink jet printers for paintings.

e. I just got back from an artist's reception at the Edmonds, WA, art and crafts fair.  I'd guess about 10% of the photography was in canvas, at least i can remember 5.

f. In April i had a show of 16 canvas prints in Port Townsend, WA, at a local shop.  I sold 4 prints, and 5 members of the adjacent co-op gallery came by during the art walk night to invite me to join their gallery.  Canvas is still not going to sell your prints if the content is not there, of course.  And it does raise costs.  I belong to the PT Photo Club, and members there have been very supportive of canvas, a few going that way themselves.

g.  Printing on metal sheets is the newest thing, but that really is expensive.

Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: louoates on June 13, 2012, 10:57:05 am
Last weekend I walked a street art show in Chicago's Hyde Park and noticed some photography trends I've seen recently in many art shows in Arizona:
1. A much larger percent of photographers (vs. painters) 
2. More canvas prints
3. Larger canvas prints
4. Much cheaper paper prints with and without mats. $20-49 16x20 usual
5. More HDR on display, usually mixed with traditional digital prints
6. Some specializing in HDR only with jumbo canvas prints. A few WAY overdone HDR, much like cartoon art
7. The usual percentage boasting "traditional" non-digital processing as a selling point
8. More #7 photographers considering switching to digital because of cost factors
9. The usual array of quality from exceptionally good in both digital and film to beginning digital photographers with zero post processing ability.
10. Very few were happy with sales. #6 above seemed to be creating the most "buzz".  Some in #7 above very defensive about film vs. digital.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: P2R2 on October 05, 2017, 10:59:49 pm
I sell at art festivals. I offer mdf plaques, metal and Facemount acrylic. The acrylic outsell metal or plaque 3 to 1. The plaques are half of the acrylic in price, the metal is in between.

I do offer free shipping. I usually mail my acrylic and drop ship the metal product with fedex. No damages so far.  Foe my booth display I can buff out any minor scratches to the point only i know. I display them, but do not sell them without a damage discount and disclosure.

Using metallic paper makes for the best of all acrylics imho.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: mistymoon on October 06, 2017, 10:12:43 am
I have done Art in the Pearl four times. It is a great show and is run by artists, and you will NOT be able to change their minds on the canvas issue. The debate has a long history at that show and the debate is closed. We are lucky that they let photography in at all, since the artist organizers have long had a debate about that as well. The photographers fortunate enough to get into that show consistently have very personal styles that have evolved over decades. Photographers with traditional national park photos will not get into that show, because their work is too generic and imitative.

The Pacific Northwest has never been a great place to sell traditional nature photography, perhaps because so many potential customers have access to taking their own great nature photographs in a particularly beautiful region.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: BobShaw on October 06, 2017, 05:35:26 pm
A lot of people want canvas because it is cheap. They don't want to pay for framing.
As someone who is a both a photographer and someone who runs an art group, I believe it looks cheap.
A photo on canvas can hide a lot of flaws. If it is not good enough to print on paper, then try canvas.

If a piece of painted art arrives unframed then I would suggest they get it framed for the same reason. It looks cheap.
People can go into a Reject Shop and buy large canvas for $25. That is the expectation.

As for limited additions, then yes, they do raise the price, in the gallery and later on as well.
Art shows cost a lot to run and have limited wall space. They only want to show the best.

If this is your first art show then you probably need to go and look at a few and ask questions there.
Suffice to say the organisers are probably not going to be too interested in changing the rules.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: BillK on October 27, 2017, 10:49:03 am
Very few shows have rules against photos on Canvas, so I would not worry about that much.  Many of the better shows require limited editions, usually of 250.
I have personally never seen an official at a show check that you are doing limited editions, but I would not try and cheat here.
I was hesitant to do limited editions in the beginning, but if you do the numbers, its unlikely you will sell out of many editions.

I have been selling my photography at art shows for several years now. For the first few years I sold traditional framed prints under glass.
I soon discovered the difficulty of transporting larger pieces with glass and another problem nobody has mentioned here. Most of these shows are outside
Direct sunlight on a framed glass print causes the internal temperature to rise very high and causes outgassing of solvents with inkjet prints, fogging the glass.
The only way to fix it, is to take it apart and clean the glass. A Royal pain in the A**. Reflections with the glass is another problem. I used to have customers say
I really like the picture, but the frame doesn't match my furnishings, so I would lose the sale.

For these reasons and others, I decided to start doing Gallery wrapped canvas. All my problems went away and sales increased. I would never go back to traditional framed prints.
I see some of you here have expressed your distaste for canvas, that is fine, but the bottom line is, most of the buying public does not share your distaste for canvas prints.
Doing art shows is a business, I have learned over the years that it doesn't  matter what I like, it matters what the customer likes. I wasn't that fond of canvas in the beginning,
but have now changed my mind.  If you don't give your customer what they want, you will be a poor business person and soon fail. You need to keep an open mind, test and see what sells,
when you find it, go with it. You can't argue about personal taste, but I have to chuckle when I see some here saying, canvas looks cheap, or they wouldn't have it in their house, while some of us are making a good living
selling it to the public that likes it.  ;D
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: patjoja on October 27, 2017, 11:00:23 am
I have never made a photographic print on “canvas”. Why not? Because doing so is tantamount to mimicking/borrowing from painting. I believe photography after all these years should be appreciated for its own strengths, not by aping another aesthetic process.

0.02.  ;D

I don't print on canvas, but I wish I had a dollar for every time someone walked in my booth and asked me if I had paintings or photography.  It's something I've been trying to figure out for the last two years. One guy with kids actually started arguing with me when I told him they were photographs. 

Anyway, I think all artists borrow from each other...it's human nature and part of the creative process.

Patrick
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: DougDolde on October 27, 2017, 01:21:54 pm
I have never made a photographic print on “canvas”. Why not? Because doing so is tantamount to mimicking/borrowing from painting. I believe photography after all these years should be appreciated for its own strengths, not by aping another aesthetic process.

0.02.  ;D

That is ridiculous
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: mediumcool on October 28, 2017, 04:20:00 am
That is ridiculous

You like imitation then?  :D
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Deardorff on October 28, 2017, 08:37:02 am
On the idea of limited edition printing. You might remind them that would mean an Ansel Adams, Brett and Edward Weston, Paul Caponigro and so many others would not be able to show there.
Reality is that most photographs are printed in much smaller numbers than what  Limited Edition implies. Noted writer on Photography, David Vestal did some writing on it and found he seldom made more than 5 prints of any particular negative - and generally fewer.

Do some checking and have your facts straight before talking with them.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: DougDolde on October 28, 2017, 03:33:53 pm
You like imitation then?  :D

More nonsense
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: pearlstreet on October 28, 2017, 06:24:40 pm
I don't use canvas  but I don't think you can make blanket statements about the aesthetic qualities of it. It all depends on how it is used and who the artist is.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: BobShaw on October 29, 2017, 12:38:14 am
On the idea of limited edition printing. You might remind them that would mean an Ansel Adams, Brett and Edward Weston, Paul Caponigro and so many others would not be able to show there.
Reality is that most photographs are printed in much smaller numbers than what  Limited Edition implies. Noted writer on Photography, David Vestal did some writing on it and found he seldom made more than 5 prints of any particular negative - and generally fewer.

Do some checking and have your facts straight before talking with them.
Ansel Adams does not do limited edition prints because he is dead.
He and the the others are famous enough to not need to show in that gallery so it is irrelevant. The OP is not in that situation.

Ansel and the others lived in a different world.
They were craftsmen and made unique photographs by dodging and burning and chemically processing prints.
There were printing presses then but that is not how they did prints.
They were similar to car makers before Ford invented the production line.

These days they would have to make prints the way prints are made these days because the papers and methods are no longer available to them.
This was a real challenge for later fine art photographers moving into the 21st century.

These days anyone with a digital camera and a digital file on a computer and an archival printer with a roll of paper on it can make as many prints at a time as come from the roll.

I have a large print on my wall that is 17660 / 20000.

How marketing was done in the good old days before the web thingy and Facebook is nostalgia.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: BillK on October 29, 2017, 01:00:41 pm
You like imitation then?  :D

You are wrong if you assume a photographer that prints on canvas intends to imitate a painting on canvas.
Canvas is just another medium to print on that happens to be much more practical to transport large pieces to art shows, for me.
The thought of imitating a painting never crossed my mind when I decided to start printing on canvas.
Painting and photography are two very different skills, both to be respected. The thought that we are trying to imitate a painting is in your mind not
mine.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Rob C on November 02, 2017, 04:28:11 pm
Just found this strange thread.

Photographs, for me, require to be as highly glossed as possible if only to try and approach the fantastic tonal scale and look of WSG double-weight glazed on a very good machine.

Whether this look will ever be possible on digital printers I do not know. The only way I could approach the quality of wet prints was by doing the things on Hahnem...whatever matt paper and then encasing the damned things in archival crystal sleeves.

Photography has a wonderful history that has gone down the plug hole with the fixer.

Digital cameras can be wonderful too, but, it appears to me that's pretty much where the excellence dies. The best digital reproduction I've seen is on a monitor or an iPad. I think it's the natural mating call of the new media and machines.

Whether or not photographers are growing rich selling digital prints isn't my point. My point is that until we are blessed with glossy digital that doesn't turn any part of black/white into a bronze prize, we have problems. As for canvas, good grief - if you want to be a painter buy paint. Why fake? That's all canvas looks like - whatever subject you put onto it: wannabe painter. Don't hide behind buyers - they are innocent victims of what I can only think of as aesthetic vandalism.

Rob
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: DougDolde on November 02, 2017, 05:30:01 pm
More dumb anti canvas posts.  Get a life people you are wrong.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 02, 2017, 07:34:20 pm
I love canvas.

Several reasons:

- when I was doing art fair shows, they are the lightest, most easily transportable options. I can not imagine the nightmare of working with 24 large pieces (typically 20" x 30," but going up to 20" x 60") framed under glass
- they can be hung on walls framed (for a classic look) or unframed (for a modern look)
- they do not need special hardware for the wall, the way framed images under glass do, especially larger sizes (I was selling up to 30" x 40" pieces, or 20" x 60" panoramas)
- they DO NOT REFLECT light the way glass does
- they look the same from whatever angle you look at them

Ultimately, it is the image that counts. Some images work wonders on metal (e.g., brushed aluminum), some on paper, some on canvas.

The reason paintings on canvas are so valued is precisely because it is not under glass (apart from being originals, of course). It does not reflect ambient light, it looks the same from every angle. Just like canvas photographs. It is NOT about imitating. It is about the ultimate impression the image creates, no matter the medium.

Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Rob C on November 03, 2017, 09:45:12 am
Cool; I read convenience before quality.

But hey, whatever floats your kit boat.

;-)

Rob

P.S.

Worst of all, it's just vulgar.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: KLaban on November 03, 2017, 12:15:59 pm
More dumb anti canvas posts.  Get a life people you are wrong.

What a dumb post. Choice of media is a subjective decision, there are no rights or wrongs.

As a painter working in oils and acrylics I used canvas for more years than I care to remember, took the skin off my knuckles stretching the bloody stuff but loved it. I've admired the work of many painters who combine photographic images and paint on canvas.

As a water-colourist I've always used mat papers.

As a printmaker - silkscreen, litho, potato and all  - I've always used mat papers.

As a photographer I've always used mat papers. I'm not a fan of glossy papers and I've yet to see anything from a photographer printing on canvas that I've thought of as anything other than tacky.

These are my subjective opinions.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Rob C on November 03, 2017, 04:22:33 pm
There's also the case of (but not only of) Saul Leiter who painted over photographs of nudes. Some are in his last book, and I have tried to figure out why he did that. I wonder if he wasn't good at painting faces and the technique got round that. But then again, I was impressed by some of his abstract paintings in the book.
 
Art's a wonderful place to travel; life would be so much less rich without it - it's probably one of the earliest means of expression after the sex urge and the smack on the nose. In whichever order they come. Not that I'm suggesting they are connected, of course, but you never know.

;-)

Rob
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 03, 2017, 05:41:49 pm
... I read convenience before quality...

I do not have problem with quality. What would the problem be?

I think a lot of gushing over paper photographs comes only from photographers and printers, the only two types who ever hold a print before it is framed. The only time one can appreciate the difference between a chemical and a digital print, or this paper over that paper, is when you hold it in your hand and can examine it closely, even get a tactile feel of it. The moment you put it under glass, the magic is gone.

I tend to view prints from a user perspective as well. In which case, convenience plays an important role. Any quality gains end up hidden behind the glass anyway.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Rob C on November 03, 2017, 06:11:30 pm
I do not have problem with quality. What would the problem be?

I think a lot of gushing over paper photographs comes only from photographers and printers, the only two types who ever hold a print before it is framed. The only time one can appreciate the difference between a chemical and a digital print, or this paper over that paper, is when you hold it in your hand and can examine it closely, even get a tactile feel of it. The moment you put it under glass, the magic is gone.

I tend to view prints from a user perspective as well. In which case, convenience plays an important role. Any quality gains end up hidden behind the glass anyway.


It's simple Slobodan: nothing can match the tonal scale and look of a properly glazed, wet darkroom print. I am, of course, speaking about prints by a printer who knows what he's doing.

I made literally thousands of back/white prints during my traineeship in an industrial photo-unit. I thought I had all the answers when I joined: I knew nothing. It took years of work to get there, and yes, I do pride myself on the standard that I achieved and think I can tell a good print from one that is not.

The underlying problem with canvas is that it is a relatively new invention that came about in order to imitate the world of paint and hide flaws that glossy prints reveal sans mercy. It fits perfectly into the mindset of those people out there with the belief that if it's canvas then it's art. There was no other purpose for its creation than to allow photography to ape painting. It's creators knew exactly what they were doing: mass marketing of faux art. Try to find some of the original advertising for the stuff if you don't believe me; the makers were not in the least bit shy about what they wanted to do; they had their market down perfectly. Obviously enough - it's still around. Why else would anyone have developed such a gargoyle?

As KLaban says, it's tacky. And my subjective opinion and experience agrees.

Regarding glass: when my Hahnemuehle matt rag prints are behind glass, only then do they regain some of the look I had managed to screw out of the files and see on the monitor. So no, the glass is a huge help in some cases. Its downside: gotta light it carefully or suffer.  But that is another matter, and nothing to do with the quality of a print.

;-)

Rob
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 03, 2017, 06:21:10 pm
... and hide flaws that glossy prints reveal sans mercy...

What's wrong with that? I can only see it as a benefit.

As for revealing flaws sans mercy... are you suggesting women should not wear makeup? Or photographers shooting them should not use diffused lights, reflecting surfaces, softar filters, photoshop techniques, etc., but instead use on-camera flash in order to reveal their skin and feature flaws sans mercy? I think I heard of such an attempt, unfortunately, the photographer did not survive to tell us about it ;)
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: BobShaw on November 03, 2017, 07:20:14 pm
I’ve noticed that a show in Portland says no photographic print on canvas allowed, and another show in Bend has a requirement saying the photographic prints must have limited edition of 250 or less.
I am not sure why this got to 3 pages.
These are the rules. Like it or not.
There ares standards for most things.
Some have high standards and some have low standards.
Decide what you want and market to that.
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Rob C on November 04, 2017, 05:17:18 am
What's wrong with that? I can only see it as a benefit.

As for revealing flaws sans mercy... are you suggesting women should not wear makeup? Or photographers shooting them should not use diffused lights, reflecting surfaces, softar filters, photoshop techniques, etc., but instead use on-camera flash in order to reveal their skin and feature flaws sans mercy? I think I heard of such an attempt, unfortunately, the photographer did not survive to tell us about it ;)


Congratulations, Slobodan! The reddest of herrings ever encountered!

;-)

Rob

Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Rob C on November 04, 2017, 05:24:56 am
I am not sure why this got to 3 pages.
These are the rules. Like it or not.
There ares standards for most things.
Some have high standards and some have low standards.
Decide what you want and market to that.

It's simple, Bob: some of us have nothing better to do. It's the life we were encouraged to get.

That said, within it all, there lurk nuggets of wisdom for those who seek such things.

(Things. I invariably mistype thongs whenever this word comes up. There are many such repeated mistakes; that's why my posts are always so brief: they consume oodles of my life time.)

Rob
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 04, 2017, 10:34:03 am

Congratulations, Slobodan! The reddest of herrings ever encountered!

;-)

Yes, Rob, I certainly deserve congrats for (barely) surviving such and attempt. At some point, I got a new lens for my Hasselblad, a 120/4 macro, and tried to demonstrate its virtues to my then-wife by taking a close-up portrait of her. The slide was pin-sharp, of course, and I was so proud of the facial details it delivered, alas...

Come to think of it, perhaps printing it on canvas could have saved my marriage?  :)
Title: Re: No Canvas Print Allowed and Forced Limited Edition Rules?
Post by: Rob C on November 04, 2017, 02:16:22 pm
Yes, Rob, I certainly deserve congrats for (barely) surviving such and attempt. At some point, I got a new lens for my Hasselblad, a 120/4 macro, and tried to demonstrate its virtues to my then-wife by taking a close-up portrait of her. The slide was pin-sharp, of course, and I was so proud of the facial details it delivered, alas...

Come to think of it, perhaps printing it on canvas could have saved my marriage?  :)

Slobodan, Slobodan, two wrongs don't make a right: first, for heads, never use anything shorter (on 6x6) than 150mm and don't get closer than six feet. Observing this distance advice will make your image too small, but still useful - where rings, both extension and romantic, make matters worse, forcing you closer and closer, noses larger and larger; using a 180mm is better. Trust me on this - avoid getting closer - there are usually other opportunities for that, if you want them. Never photograph a relative unless you preface the act with "I'm just trying out a new style" (don't mention the lens may be new - they'd never notice otherwise).

You maths/accounts/numbers guys sometimes lack other qualities than can help you navigate a more gentle, relaxed path through life.

;-)

Rob