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Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: W.T. Jones on February 05, 2012, 07:04:40 pm

Title: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: W.T. Jones on February 05, 2012, 07:04:40 pm
It is not my intention to start a mac vs PC war so lets not go there. . So I figure I can get some good info from the Lula forum without a bunch of crap. I am 47 and have been using PC's since the early 90's. So have been through DOS & most versions of windows.  I know very little about Macs.

I am at the point where i need to replace my laptop. I typically only use it for lightroom, quick books, light video editing and email on the road. I have noticed many photographers use Macs and many of my non corporate friends do as well.(Seems Windows is firmly entrenched in the business culture).  They all like them & say they are easy to use and work well. Well so does a windows computer, for the most part anyway.

Why do you mac users love them so? and how about people that have made the switch or use both systems? I am in the midst of revamping my file system as well & I am going to get a Drobo FS and use it as a network drive. That should give me easy to manage cross platform storage. I will still run a windows system for my office. Perhaps if I like the mac I will change later on.

Am I nuts and should I stick with Windows PC's? One thing with windows computers is they tend to slow down after a while. They get bloated with crap or something. I am not sure what happens to them. I try to keep them clean & stay away from questionable sites etc.. Do macs suffer from this slowdown? are they reliable for the most part? I do realize that hardware is subject to failure at any given moment. I can deal with that.

I am looking at a 15" MBP with 8gb ram

Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: Craig Lamson on February 05, 2012, 09:05:00 pm
I made the switch about a year ago, and after a bit of a rough start I'm pretty happy.  Still use Windows laptops for tethered location shooting because I'm still having issues with the MBP's.

I'm still using W7 to run Quickbooks.  I've not heard a single good thing about Quickbooks for Mac.

I have a number of choices for running W7...Parallels on a MBP, a dual boot Hackintosh and a few W7 Laptops.

Parallels is just Ok.  I'll take a native boot instead.  YMMV.

Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: John.Murray on February 05, 2012, 09:33:59 pm
Although not my first Mac purchase, at the time I bought my 2010 13" MBP, the alternatives in the Windows world were pretty disappointing (I'm an IT consultant and pretty much see and work with everything out there).  To my mind a well made portable computer should share many of the same hallmarks of a good camera:

1) Solid Construction:
Frankly, nearly all windows laptops are frankly, poorly made.  Cheap materials, assembly/disassembly incredibly difficult.  There are some exceptions - the recent Lenovo's are very nice, the new high end HP offerings are nice... My biggest issue is CRAPWARE - the first thing I do with *any* major manufacturer's box is to do a clean install, followed by device drivers - honestly this takes less time than "de-crapifying" whats there.....  

2) Battery Life:
A portable computer ought to reliably be used all day, or close to it.  Honestly, the only way I've been able to get most Windows laptops to work that way is to change power management to hibernate on Lid close.  Carrying a spare battery is in my mind, a must.  I've been very pleasantly surprised by the power management of the Mac - I rarely run it into deep sleep (hibernation) even though it is *always* on and with me during my workday.

3) Performance:
All current MBP's offer Thunderbolt, a portable interface with PCI-Ex and Displayport capabilities.  Although a bit expensive, there are some impressive offerings out there including Storage, Video Capture, Video Processing, and external PCI-Ex cabinets - effectively turning your purchase into an effective Workstation class machine.  To my knowledge, only 2 Windows based vendors support TB, Sony and Asus (neither shipping - although this will soon change...)

Frankly, I enjoy running both Win7 and OS X - the operating systems have far more similarities than differences.  If you must run Windows apps - a great alternative to Parallels is Oracle's Virtual Box - I have several Virtual Machines on my Mac including Server 2008R2 hosting Active Directory, and Exchange Box and a pair of XP and Win7 machines,  I use these to help support customer's issues. All running quite effectively in 8GB  I also run bootcamp - natively booting into Windows 7, but rarely use it....
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: Kirk Gittings on February 05, 2012, 10:34:57 pm
I have had Mac laptops for 6 years while maintaining PCs for editing. I have not had a stable PC since WXP and am finally totally fed up and will be switching next week. Enough! Macs are not perfect but IME clearly the lesser of two evils.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: jjj on February 05, 2012, 10:45:23 pm
Yes some PCs are cheap and nasty but if you pay Mac prices for a PC then that buys you a really spiffy PC. And the cheapest version of any Mac is normally a bit pants and rarely worth buying as it is crippled down to a price point, just to pretend that Macs are vaguely affordable. I even had to add memory and a bigger hard drive to my £2000 Mac Pro as it was rather lacking in those areas. And you don't even get a monitor!

I've used Macs for a long time and they are no better than PCs. Just annoying in different ways and much better in other ways. Also they most certainly do not just work. I currently have 4 Apple products in the house, a Mac Pro, a MacBook Pro, an iPhone 4s and a Nano, the only one that hasn't had recurring technical and/or software problems with many visits to Apple Store is the Nano. OSX updates of both Lion and Snow Leopard in the last week has caused terrible problems for many users. And sadly this is not unusual. I've had to roll back OSX updates on several occasions due to issues. This is the main problem with Apple's secrecy, less outside testing, so you should never bother with any Apple product until version 3 or 4 and even then wait a while before updating. In fact an Apple genius said exactly that to me with regard to OSX changes, but it also applies to hardware.
My MacPro currently runs like a badly constructed homemade PC from 1997. And the fact that visiting simply websites that use Flash or Quicksilver can cripple your entire OSX machine is absurd.

I also tend to avoid using any Apple software bar the OS on my Macs as Apple software is not only buggy but usually poorly designed. It is rarely simple to use, rather it is simplistic. Removing features to simplify an interface takes no skill, adding more features without adding complexity does and Apple prefers the former. The Apple programmes that pros do actually use, tend to have been designed elsewhere and then bought by Apple, such as Final Cut or Logic.

Unless you need to change an OS in order to use specific PC only or Mac only software stick with the OS you are used to.
And Macs slow down just like PCs and for mostly the same reasons. Though they are more sensitive to full HDs than PCs, I also find you need to keep Mac HDS a lot emptier % wise than PCs before they start to slow.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: jjj on February 05, 2012, 11:30:33 pm
An interesting article on brand loyalty and why some people prefer say Macs.
brand-loyalty (http://gizmodo.com/5555953/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty)

Also it should be noted that a facet of human behaviour is that the more someone pays for a products the more defensive they are about its possible failings, for to admit to any flaws says you made a bad choice. And the more you pay the dafter you think you will look.
Hence you would expect Apple users to strongly defend Apple and PC users to more readily admit flaws in their on average much cheaper PCs, even if they both had exactly the same amount of problems/failures.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: Steve Weldon on February 06, 2012, 12:02:20 am
It is not my intention to start a mac vs PC war so lets not go there. .

Oh stop it, my sides are splitting already.. . :D


I look at this a bit differently than most.  Here are some indisputable facts (though I'm sure someone will dispute them anyway)


Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: tived on February 06, 2012, 01:22:24 am
I work on both Mac and PC's as a retoucher, if I go to a photog place 9 out 10 they use a Mac - 9 out of 10 of those have no idea why they use a Mac other then someone else they knew was using one so ther efore they bought a Mac - or they used one at University so it was what they were familiar with.

Both platforms offer some appealling features, unfortunately we can have all of the good features on one platform.

Each and everytime I am about to upgrade I look at both options - Mac and Windows and then I look at what I am wanting in my computer - I am frustrated that the Mac isn't more upgradable then it is, its very limited in the number of hard drives that can be installed and also limited in the amount of ram, Granted I am currently on at 48GB but expecting to double that in the next quarter.

So its windows based machine for me, mainly because I can get a windows machine that I can configure to how I want it and I can get the most speed from it too, in both CPU and HDD speed, granted these are not your off the shelf builds.

For laptop, I recently opted for a Sony Z-series 1.1Kg, 13in screen 1920x1080screen, 8gb of ram and two stripped SSD's (would have liked them to have been bigger!) it has an external Blue-Ray/DVD player/recorder. i7 CPU 2.8-3.3Ghz the windows Index is 6.8 as its minimum and 7.7 at its max (7.9 is MAX). I bought an add on battery which has added to the weight, but its also given me 9 hours of working on the computer doing PS and related tasks.... so I am not complaining without it, its only 3-4 hours of actual work or 6 hours with light work.

Its not perfect but, it was the best compromise i could find, but its fast and when on the road I use USB-3 devices via hub and it gives me around 100mb/s which is an improvement over USB-2

Again I did look at a Macpro and a MacAir which was in the same weight class, but they are incredibly slow.

I do like the finder on the Mac and that you can color code your files and folders in it - really like it. And the short-cuts are closer on a Mac then on Windows, thats handy sometimes too!!

but if someone gave me a Mac I would be happy to use it, it looks really impressive and are probably the best looking computers - but they are not fast.

All the best and good luck with whatever you buy

Henrik

PS: Ohh, have a look at both Mac and PC hardware forums and there you will see that both sides have just as many problems as the other party has - they myth that Windows crashed all the time is excatly that - Mac users have just as many problems - so therefore use what makes you feel good. I know I do :-)

Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: W.T. Jones on February 06, 2012, 02:07:02 am
Thanks for the answers folks, you have been well behaved. :) I don't spend a lot of time in computer forums (It probably shows) so your answers are helpful.
After I posted the opening post I spent some time elsewhere looking & see that nearly every time there is some update to the mac OS there seems to be problems someplace with things. Printers won't work, this or that program has issues. I frankly have not had much trouble with windows over the years in that regard.

Honestly to date most of my issues with computers in general has been hardware related. Dell being the worst offender in the past few years.

I think will  look around some more for a business laptop.I am not in a big hurry. One friend I have, that spent many years in IT at a bank, sent me an email last nigh that said the HP business line of computers can be ordered with no operating system at all of you like and you can avoid Crapware from the start doing your own windows install. And he found them to be very reliable for the most part. He runs linux now, but that is not really an option for me.

I think will stick with the PC for business software. Apparently the sleek looks of the MBP has caught my eye.

However, in the mean time I am going to order a MBP as a photography tool and try one out. If anything it will satisfy my curiosity about them. And it is a good bet I will learn something useful! I will run LR4 beta on it for a month or so & see how that goes.  After all, if I end up hating it, I can always give it to my granddaughter who uses Macs in school. Or better yet, I can always sell it to one of my fanboy Mac friends ::)

Thanks folks

Edit:  I do fly a few times a year, almost always for pleasure and usually with  photography in mind to some degree. The battery life is aspect is appealing to me. One of the things that my current laptop does not do well at. Two hours maximum, maybe, if not using a processor intense program. Lightroom will run the battery down fast.  
Top speed is not paramount to me, I am not a gamer or anything like that. As long as the file processing speed for Lightroom is reasonable I will be happy.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: seb87 on February 06, 2012, 12:21:32 pm
you can compare the macbook pro with these two laptop...

- DELL M4600
- Lenovo W520
- HP 8560W

Dell and HP are avaible with IPS panel with full adobe rgb cover ;) , better than Apple lcd panel .
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 06, 2012, 01:22:11 pm
Given how much time we spend with our computers, doesn't it make sense to, just as with cameras,  go to a store that stocks either or both and work with the machines you are interested in. See which feels best to you. 
We can all natter on about tech specs and psychology, and we are all smart enough to adapt to different ways of working, but as long as either tool does the job you want it to do what matters most is how whether or not you enjoy using it or are subliminally irritated by its quirks or the way it makes you do things.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: jalcocer on February 06, 2012, 01:32:17 pm
Given how much time we spend with our computers, doesn't it make sense to, just as with cameras,  go to a store that stocks either or both and work with the machines you are interested in. See which feels best to you. 
We can all natter on about tech specs and psychology, and we are all smart enough to adapt to different ways of working, but as long as either tool does the job you want it to do what matters most is how whether or not you enjoy using it or are subliminally irritated by its quirks or the way it makes you do things.

+1 on that, been a pc, mac, linux user for some years now, with pc's most of my life, as with everything you won't find the perfect solution, but you can find the one that suits you the most, that's the important part, to have a tool that really makes you feel comfortable using it. All of those have pros and cons, but for the most part is just to get use to the workflow and the UI of the system you use. There are things that windows can provide that maybe macs can't and viceversa, but at the end there's always a workaround.

Check some computers at the store, macs, pc's and see which one calls out your name the most, which one you find more comfortable, another thing is if you already own a bunch of software, maybe some that is expensive and only allow it's use on pc's then there may be your answer, if you don't mind about it, well then you still have two ways to go.

Good luck
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: jjj on February 06, 2012, 10:21:26 pm
I do like the finder on the Mac and that you can color code your files and folders in it - really like it.
Please tell me you are kidding.  :o  Finder is by far the worst programme I have ever used, by a long way. If I wasn't able to bypass it with PathFinder and also use other programmes like ChronoSync and Default Folder X to make up for Finder's lameness, I'd instantly wipe my OSX install and put Windows on my Macs.
Finder's been left to rot and die by Apple [not that it was ever any good] as they really want you to use iPhoto/Itunes etc to handle your files and it has the added advantage [to Apple] of making file tracking/finding when using non-Apple software very clumsy. It is excruciatingly awful in use. Shudder!
I've done file management on my Macs using PCs over the network as it was so much quicker than using Finder natively.

Quote
And the short-cuts are closer on a Mac then on Windows, thats handy sometimes too!!
I used to always wonder why people complained about difficult shortcuts combinations in programmes like PS and then I used a Mac and realised how clumsy they were compared to a PC. Sometimes even needing two hands where one would do on a PC. One of the worst being a two handed action to delete on the laptop or wireless keyboard.
Swapping command and control keys around is really easy to do however and this makes shortcuts on an Apple keyboard far less clumsy.
Though in same part of the keyboard pref pane is one of my favourite Apple features - being able to turn off caps lock. Seems really trivial, but as I don't SHOUT WHEN ONLINE, but do often hit caps lock by mistake it makes my life much easier. 
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: tived on February 07, 2012, 01:14:17 am
Hi JJJ,

regarding the shortcuts on the Mac, they usually use the Apple key (which would be our Alt-key on PC/Windows) its placed much closer then the ctrl key which is usually the one, one has to use for default shortcuts in windows.

What I like about the finder is the column layout, i think thats excellent - and the mentioned color coding, - but its not enough to give up the speed of my PC, which is probably the equivilent to a Mac Pro Workstation.

To the OP,

I don't use my PC for playing games, 95% of it use is for photo-related work, and the speed by which i can do things helps my clients and helps me in my creative process. I have to admit that I didn't really understand your last post - regarding that Mac's have issues with every update, and you haven't had that many with your Windows machine, yet you finish off by saying that you are going to buy a MBP...??

Regardless of your reasoning, I think you will get a lot of good use out of the MBP, they are great little machines - all the best

Henrik
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: Farmer on February 07, 2012, 01:46:35 am
Please tell me you are kidding.  :o  Finder is by far the worst programme I have ever used, by a long way. If I wasn't able to bypass it with PathFinder and also use other programmes like ChronoSync and Default Folder X to make up for Finder's lameness, I'd instantly wipe my OSX install and put Windows on my Macs.
Finder's been left to rot and die by Apple [not that it was ever any good] as they really want you to use iPhoto/Itunes etc to handle your files and it has the added advantage [to Apple] of making file tracking/finding when using non-Apple software very clumsy. It is excruciatingly awful in use. Shudder!
I've done file management on my Macs using PCs over the network as it was so much quicker than using Finder natively.

I know people who use Parallels just so they can use Directory Opus for file management on their Macs (which is a testament both to how amazingly good Directory Opus is and how abysmal Finder is).
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: tived on February 07, 2012, 02:41:12 am
Thank guys I going to give Opus a try ;-)

Man you learn something new everyday ;-) thanks

Henrik
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: fredjeang on February 07, 2012, 04:46:01 am
One of the very few good and forced reasons to get a Mac today is called: Prores.

Yes you read well, prores...

Not open. Pc can read them, not write them.

It's bad, but they managed to hypnotized a big part of the motion industry in the low-middle-end with marketing bombing so 70% of the people cut in a non professional software called FCP and part of the clients ask for Prores 422 delivery format.

If you plan to motion, you'd need a Mac in a corner despite being the worst and most expensive devide you'd need, because of...prores...

Cleverly done !
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: W.T. Jones on February 07, 2012, 05:38:22 am

Quote
To the OP,

I don't use my PC for playing games, 95% of it use is for photo-related work, and the speed by which i can do things helps my clients and helps me in my creative process. I have to admit that I didn't really understand your last post - regarding that Mac's have issues with every update, and you haven't had that many with your Windows machine, yet you finish off by saying that you are going to buy a MBP...??

Regardless of your reasoning, I think you will get a lot of good use out of the MBP, they are great little machines - all the best

Henrik

Henrik.
I read many posts over at DPR in the printer section mostly, now that I think about it, but some elsewhere.  Someone has a problem when they upgrade the OS. I have no idea if they are early adopters or numbskulls who do not know how to use their computers or what the issue is. I cannot believe that this is a big issue or everyone, including my friends that use macs would be howling. It is something I see from time to time & brought it up.  Usually an driver update fixes hardware things without too much trouble. Perhaps as far as applications go they did not read that their 15 year old program is no longer comparable. Who knows, you almost never get the whole story.

Thanks to those who chimed in the the finder & file management topics. Something I did not consider. I am sure I can work it out now with less head scratching.

I think there are enough good things here about the macs that it is at least worth a try. Even if I only use it for one thing. It'll give me something to do on rainy days.

Now I see why this subject can cause sparks. Can you imagine the responses if I brought this up at DPR? Holy Shit! it would be a flame fest.

Thanks one an all
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: jjj on February 07, 2012, 11:02:43 pm
I know people who use Parallels just so they can use Directory Opus for file management on their Macs (which is a testament both to how amazingly good Directory Opus is and how abysmal Finder is).
Directory Opus is one of the best designed programmes out there. Very powerful and a huge time saver. It's the Photoshop of File Browsers. The programme I miss most when using my Macs.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: jjj on February 07, 2012, 11:26:14 pm
Hi JJJ, regarding the shortcuts on the Mac, they usually use the Apple key (which would be our Alt-key on PC/Windows) its placed much closer then the ctrl key which is usually the one, one has to use for default shortcuts in windows.
I swap the Cmd [which used to be called the Apple Key] + Cntrl keys around on my Macs as it is far more ergonomic that way around. This also makes swapping between Mac and PC much easier.
The Alt key is much the same as the Windows Alt key though it's also confusingly still referred to as the option key by many people despite it not having being called that for many years now.

Quote
What I like about the finder is the column layout, i think thats excellent - and the mentioned color coding, - but its not enough to give up the speed of my PC, which is probably the equivilent to a Mac Pro Workstation.
I very rarely use the column layout as it gets difficult to use with deep folder hierarchies. I prefer a dual pane setup that programmes like Directory Opus or Path Finder allow you to use. And they can both do colour labelling if you want as well.

Colour labels DOpus (http://resource.dopus.com/viewtopic.php?t=8508)

Some of the very many ways you can layout DOpus.
[BTW - This is an ancient screen grab demo from a prior version of DOpus on XP]

(http://farm1.staticflickr.com/180/404708196_9cade2b03a_b.jpg)
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: jjj on February 07, 2012, 11:50:34 pm
I read many posts over at DPR in the printer section mostly, now that I think about it, but some elsewhere.  Someone has a problem when they upgrade the OS. I have no idea if they are early adopters or numbskulls who do not know how to use their computers or what the issue is. I cannot believe that this is a big issue or everyone, including my friends that use macs would be howling. It is something I see from time to time & brought it up.  Usually an driver update fixes hardware things without too much trouble. Perhaps as far as applications go they did not read that their 15 year old program is no longer comparable. Who knows, you almost never get the whole story.
Apple have been known to break things that other companies then have to fix. There certainly have been terrible problems with printing in the past which I seem to recall caused a lot of problems at Adobe and early versions of Snow Leopard caused Photoshop problems.
Both of last weeks updates to Snow Leopard and Lion borked people's machines [in different ways]. The SL glitch has been resolved, but not sure about the Lion one. I've got Lion, but it's not been fixed enough for me to use it for work yet. Likewise with PCs, I wait until SP1 before using a new OS.
I wouldn't blame the end user as updates are meant to fix things not break things and Apple do claim their stuff just works. However I tend to wait a week or two before installing any Apple upgrades. Typically the one time I forgot to do that [SL10.56.5 IIRC] I had to roll back to prior version immediately because of problems.
iTunes Match currently has serious issues, not as bad as the MobileMe fiasco, but still a major grade cockup and I wouldn't entrust my music to it.

This was a frequent graphics problem I had with 10.5.3, which immediately disappeared after upgrading to 10.5.4 and has never been seen since.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3224/2618092829_3af5566878_z.jpg?zz=1)

Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: tived on February 08, 2012, 12:46:46 am
Thanks JJJ,

I have downloaded and trying to get familiar with it, it does look promising, thanks

Henrik
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: tived on February 08, 2012, 12:53:13 am
Thanks JJJ,

Looks like what I am looking for! To think I haven't worked this out sooner is a little mistery to me ;-) Duh.....feeling a little.... for letting something like that slipping me by for so many years

thanks once again

Henrik
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: jjj on February 08, 2012, 01:08:59 am
Thanks JJJ,

Looks like what I am looking for! To think I haven't worked this out sooner is a little mistery to me ;-) Duh.....feeling a little.... for letting something like that slipping me by for so many years

thanks once again

Henrik
I thought exactly the same when I discovered DOpus. Particularly when I realised how much time and effort it would have saved me over the years.

It's worth spending time going through the preferences and setting them up as you like. It may take some time as it is so very, very customisable and you'll find all sorts of things you didn't know file browsers can do. But you can save and export prefs really easily.

A lot of very useful and extremely well written info here
DOpus explained (http://www.pretentiousname.com/opus/index.html)
a bit out of date, but still well worth perusing to learn what it can do. Short answer - a lot.

Latest version info (http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/c_dopus.html)
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: K.C. on February 08, 2012, 01:26:02 am

3.  There are many more programs available for PC's.  Whether you need them or not is besides the point. What is the point is that if you need a program or are required to use a program, chances are you'll find it for a PC before a Mac.  Win for Pc's.

4.  You have more choices of hardware configuration available with PC's whether it be laptops or custom built workstations.  Win for Pc's.

5.  A regular guy off the street is more likely to get a quality piece of hardware by going with Mac than with a PC.   Mac does really well policing their hardware quality level.  Win for Mac.

Having worked as an IT manager for 25+ years I would agree that the platforms are closer to each other than ever before.

However point 3 above is moot now with virtualization. Points 4 is invalid, in my opinion, based on experience with so many really poorly built PCs. Point 5 is why I use a Mac any time I have to pay for it myself.

I was recently at a meeting of 15 IT managers for a large corporation here in California. We all support about 80% PCs and 20% Macs. We all walked into the room and pulled MBPs out of our bags and put them on the table. I would say there was a clear consensus as to which we all preferred at the end of the day.

Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: Steve Weldon on February 08, 2012, 02:15:42 am
Having worked as an IT manager for 25+ years I would agree that the platforms are closer to each other than ever before.

However point 3 above is moot now with virtualization. Points 4 is invalid, in my opinion, based on experience with so many really poorly built PCs. Point 5 is why I use a Mac any time I have to pay for it myself.

I was recently at a meeting of 15 IT managers for a large corporation here in California. We all support about 80% PCs and 20% Macs. We all walked into the room and pulled MBPs out of our bags and put them on the table. I would say there was a clear consensus as to which we all preferred at the end of the day.



1.  I don't agree.  There are issues with virtualization and the average guy isn't going to find it a simple task. 

2.  Silly statement.  Sure, there are a lot of poorly built PC's (and poorly built Mac's though not nearly as many), but there are many well built PC's with a much greater availability of hardware configurations.  This doesn't make the point moot, instead it validates it.  I build PC's for clients and about half of what they require (mostly due to drive bay, power supply, and graphic card limitations) couldn't be built with a Mac.  And all but a few couldn't be built by Mac because they have never offered the most popular CPU for desktops.. the i7.  Granted, the Macpro offers dual Xeon's which are great, but they're also pricey in a limited case.  80% of the computers you support are PC's.  Are all 80% so poorly built you should have never recommended them as an IT manager?

3.   I had to laugh, 25+ years as a IT manager and you buy a Mac because you can't easily find a well built PC?  Ask, I'll help you out.

4.  Yes, there is a clear consensus.  It's called the marketplace.  You support 80% PC's.  What percentage are desktops NOT running dual Xeons?  How many were purchased by contract to fit a specific need, run specific legacy software where virtualization wasn't acceptable, with a specified level of service and a given service life that made them economically feasible?  As opposed to being fashion accessories or serious DTP or graphic workstations?  Individuals might not have all the requirements of a corporation, but they usually have some of them with price being a big one.

I love discussions with well reasoned opinions, but it's a bit boorish when someone claims the high ground of being the SME and expects credit for such, and then gives such a poorly reasoned and supported fanboy response.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: John.Murray on February 08, 2012, 02:33:54 am
K.C. - Similar experience!  The fact is you can very easily run Windows on a Mac, the reverse is not true. That said my desktops runs Windows....

Interesting side note - I spent part of the day sorting out a mixed Windows / Mac environment with some HP printers using the universal printer driver that HP, along with Canon supports. The latest 5.4 offerings are impressive - offering a nearly identical interface between XP/Win7/Mac platforms - 32/64...

to Steve:
Remember, we're talking laptops - we don't get the the options available to custom builders like you and me.

KC's point is well taken - we have to support both platforms, can't legally do that with a Dell or Lenovo...

I'm still of the opinion that the major manufactures of PC's are under the thumb of marketing "suits" and their attendant "deals".  Witness the appearance of dedicated Microsoft outlets offering customized PC's (ie: what you and I do).
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: jjj on February 08, 2012, 03:11:00 am
K.C. - Similar experience!  The fact is you can very easily run Windows on a Mac, the reverse is not true. That said my desktops runs Windows....
As mentioned above, not always an easy experience and Apple seem to hobble Windows in bootcamp so it's a bit crappy to use and virtual machines have their own limitations too.


Quote
to Steve:
Remember, we're talking laptops - we don't get the the options available to custom builders like you and me.
Actually you can customise many laptops before purchase. Obviously in a more limited way compared to a desktop, but options are available.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: tived on February 08, 2012, 05:36:18 am
I think we are also missing the vanity effect and that Apple is more like
a fashion accessorie and a status symbol.

It stylish and sleek, it looks great and it has a
flawless reputation at least so we kept being
told by Apple, and this is mainly done by slamming
the opposition with cleaver marketing.

But at the end of the day a client can't tell if
the image was made on a Apple Mac or a Windows
machine.
I do find this amusing, I am an IT such and such, therefore I know, well I run a business
and the rules that apply to me also goes for corporate "WORLD", that cost
of ownership, service and the speed at which tasks
can be performed are key. To my knowledge there are not
Any tasks that can't be done on either platform.

But... Despite all our arguments as to which is better or worse - we luckily
have the freedom to choose and to me as an individual
is the most important factor... Written on my iPhone but I am a PC guy :-)

All the best

Henrik
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: W.T. Jones on February 08, 2012, 07:30:33 am
Apple have been known to break things that other companies then have to fix. There certainly have been terrible problems with printing in the past which I seem to recall caused a lot of problems at Adobe and early versions of Snow Leopard caused Photoshop problems.
Both of last weeks updates to Snow Leopard and Lion borked people's machines [in different ways]. The SL glitch has been resolved, but not sure about the Lion one. I've got Lion, but it's not been fixed enough for me to use it for work yet. Likewise with PCs, I wait until SP1 before using a new OS.
I wouldn't blame the end user as updates are meant to fix things not break things and Apple do claim their stuff just works. However I tend to wait a week or two before installing any Apple upgrades. Typically the one time I forgot to do that [SL10.56.5 IIRC] I had to roll back to prior version immediately because of problems.
iTunes Match currently has serious issues, not as bad as the MobileMe fiasco, but still a major grade cockup and I wouldn't entrust my music to it.

This was a frequent graphics problem I had with 10.5.3, which immediately disappeared after upgrading to 10.5.4 and has never been seen since.

jjj,

So there is validity to those claims and early adoption seems to be the culprit due to buggy software? I have some tendency to disbelieve many complaints about things on the net. Call me cynical, but people do have a tendency to not think things through before spouting off on forums. I have been guilty of that as well.(this may be one of those times.)

However most if not all of the printer issues (my concern) I was reading about seem to have been fixed rather quickly from what I see. It was not enough to scare me off in any event.

Not being one to follow tech issues unless I have a problem, I am unaware of iTunes match & MobileMe  problems.

Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: jjj on February 08, 2012, 11:39:22 am
So there is validity to those claims and early adoption seems to be the culprit due to buggy software? I have some tendency to disbelieve many complaints about things on the net. Call me cynical, but people do have a tendency to not think things through before spouting off on forums. I have been guilty of that as well.(this may be one of those times.)
Once whilst in the Apple Store to get my Apple kit fixed [an all too common trip I'm afraid], the Mac Genius working on my MacPro said he never upgraded to a new Apple OS until bug fix 4 or 5!
Though I will give the Apple stores a big credit for their very good customer service and they have a ridiculous amount of staff compared to most stores. Not all are geniuses or know how to solve your problem, but rarely are they not helpful in some way - often by simply knowing the person who can be of help. No PC shop comes anywhere near this level of service.
Though the Mac staff in PC World tend to be as useless as the rest of them in shop.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: Farmer on February 08, 2012, 04:59:25 pm
For anyone who is taking a look at Dopus as a result of this thread, remember that you can get a free, fully functional trial version for 30 days and if you register it gets extended to 60 days.

Also, using it as "Explorer Replacement" is the most powerful way to use it.

I first used it back on the Amiga and have been a fan ever since.  JJJ said it was the PS of file browsers, but really I think it's beyond that :-)  If you work on multiple monitors, it just gets better and better.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: John.Murray on February 08, 2012, 07:54:13 pm
jjj,

So there is validity to those claims and early adoption seems to be the culprit due to buggy software? I have some tendency to disbelieve many complaints about things on the net. Call me cynical, but people do have a tendency to not think things through before spouting off on forums. I have been guilty of that as well.(this may be one of those times.)

However most if not all of the printer issues (my concern) I was reading about seem to have been fixed rather quickly from what I see. It was not enough to scare me off in any event.

Not being one to follow tech issues unless I have a problem, I am unaware of iTunes match & MobileMe  problems.



I wouldn't worry too much about his comments, honestly i've never heard *anyone* that has had as many issues.....  obviously angry about it as well.   I'm very aggressive about upgrades, but also carefull to check device/application compatibility ahead of time.  The only major issue for me with Lion was I could no longer run i1 for color profiling - i knew that ahead of time, so i just boot in Snow Leopard for Color Management Chores, then copy profiles over to Lion.

Some comments are factually incorrect, his association of Final Cut Pro X and Quicktime for instance, QT is 32 bit - FCPX uses AV Foundation.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: jjj on February 09, 2012, 07:19:41 am
I wouldn't worry too much about his comments, honestly i've never heard *anyone* that has had as many issues.....  obviously angry about it as well.   I'm very aggressive about upgrades, but also carefull to check device/application compatibility ahead of time.  The only major issue for me with Lion was I could no longer run i1 for color profiling - i knew that ahead of time, so i just boot in Snow Leopard for Color Management Chores, then copy profiles over to Lion.

Some comments are factually incorrect, his association of Final Cut Pro X and Quicktime for instance, QT is 32 bit - FCPX uses AV Foundation.
I think you'll find the incorrect facts are solely on your part as I never mentioned FCPX + Quicktime. Not sure anyone else did either as first mention of Quicktime is in your post.

And do you also somehow think I should be skipping with joy around the internet because 3 out of 4 of my rather expensive Apple items should be faulty/problematic. All I'm doing is offering a real world, non fawning view of Apple. What does annoy me however is naive macolytes defending their perfect company. Ironically the one item that works just fine is the iPod nano which was a sale bargain. The other 3 being full price brand new top of range items.

I should mention that I certainly do not think PC vendors are perfect either, but unlike Apple they do not claim to 'just work'. And as I already mentioned above, the more expensive a purchase is, the less likely people are to admit to any issues. And as Apple products are only at the high priced end of market.....you get a lot of people protesting a little too hard that they work perfectly.

Now not only do Apple not sell cheap products, but spec both the hardware and design the software. This means they should be much, much better than PCs running Windows which has to run on a near infinite combination of hardware, a lot of which is cheap and nasty.
Now I've had PCs that have had no problems, but I would not be daft enough to claim that all PCs are good as a result of this, yet I've seen Mac users try to prove that all Macs work as theirs didn't have issues.

In the last week Apple have had 3 major software problems. Both Lion + Snow Leopard updates and also iTunes Match screwing up people's music.
The majority of Apple users I know have taken their Macs back to the store within the first year. I'm the only Mac laptop user I know who hasn't had problems with the magsafe power cord - Apple have had been forced to do a product recall on it as it happens.
OSX Update problems (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/02/04/apple-revises-snow-leopard-security-update-and-pulls-10-7-3-delta-update/)
iTunes match Problems (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/02/03/uploaded-itunes-match-songs-inaccessible-for-some/)
Mag Safe recall (http://support.apple.com/kb/TS4127?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US) yet despite it being a worldwide problem, you can't get a replacement here in UK. And a colleague who lives a few doors down has had several break and had to cough up for new ones - not cheap either.
PS issues with Snow Leopard (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/09/02/photoshop-cs3-and-cs4-snow-leopard-bugs-under-investigation/) This was sorted with the SL 10.6.2 update if I recall, but then then 10.6.3 caused new problems (http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/06/snow_leopard_update_fixes_cs3_problem.html) with CS3.
One of very many threads re Snow Leopard color management problems (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2130615?threadID=2130615&tstart=50)
And the lists of issues go on and on. Which kind of makes a mockery of Apple's marketing strategy.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: Jim Pascoe on February 09, 2012, 12:14:52 pm
I use Canon cameras and lenses and people often ask me when I am working if it is because I think Canon is better than Nikon.  My reply is no, I just started using Canon when I went digital ten years ago and gradually invested in the system and it just works with almost complaints.  I'm sure Nikon would have been the same.

About five years ago I switched from PC to an iMac because I was seduced by the design and the promise of easy use.  We now still have the iMac, and it still works flawlessly despite having newer software installed.  We also have a Macbook Pro (4 years), a Macbook (2 years), and a Mac Pro (nine months).  They just work.  Pretty much flawlessly.  Not saying they are better for everyone, but I use them a lot and they never let me down.  Applecare?  Who needs it?.

Nobody has mentioned anti-virus software yet, but in my experience it is a pain in the butt on all PC's I have used.  It is not installed on my Mac's and so far it has never been an issue.  Perhaps I am just lucky (touches wood quickly).

Jim
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: Steve Weldon on February 09, 2012, 01:26:23 pm
to Steve:
Remember, we're talking laptops - we don't get the the options available to custom builders like you and me.

I was going off what he claimed to support with the 80/20 figures.  I don't think he was talking exclusively laptops, but platforms.  Sorry, but my comments hold.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: Steve Weldon on February 09, 2012, 01:45:12 pm
I think we are also missing the vanity effect and that Apple is more like
a fashion accessorie and a status symbol.


It stylish and sleek, it looks great and it has a
flawless reputation at least so we kept being
told by Apple, and this is mainly done by slamming
the opposition with cleaver marketing.


But at the end of the day a client can't tell if
the image was made on a Apple Mac or a Windows
machine.

I do find this amusing, I am an IT such and such, therefore I know, well I run a business
and the rules that apply to me also goes for corporate "WORLD", that cost
of ownership, service and the speed at which tasks
can be performed are key. To my knowledge there are not
Any tasks that can't be done on either platform.


But... Despite all our arguments as to which is better or worse - we luckily
have the freedom to choose
and to me as an individual
is the most important factor... Written on my iPhone but I am a PC guy :-)

All the best

Henrik

1.  I think this can't be discounted.  When it comes to computers men are like women, they like pretty/sleek/thin/ baubles.  There's nothing wrong with this, but let's not confuse form with function.

2.  If we say it enough over and over again, people start to believe it.  This is the core of advertising.  The facts are that IT departments roll out PC's 100 to 1 over Mac's (this figure will vary I'm sure) and IT managers aren't doing this because all the workers end up with machines that won't do the job either through poor design or hardware failures.  The PC's do the job.   They're doing it because the marketplace allows PC's to be rolled out at significantly less cost, AND because many companies are using legacy software supported by windows which won't fly with Mac's bootcamp or any other type of virtualization.   If we can agree that "all else being equal" when it comes to capability between Mac and PC's, then we are left with cost and legacy software support.. and these two areas cannot/should not be discounted.

3.  Absolutely.  An image file is an image file.  I've had a handful of issues where a DVD I burned needed a certain file system standard to be read on legacy Mac's, but for the vast majority clients a file is a file.

4.  Tasks no.  But it remains true that the available library of software to perform these tasks is much larger with PC's.   An interesting observation.  I've seen more progress made with iphone and adroid aps in the support of such tasks than I have with Mac software.

5.  Absolutely.  We live in great times with more choice than we've ever had.   Love it.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: Steve Weldon on February 09, 2012, 01:51:26 pm

Nobody has mentioned anti-virus software yet, but in my experience it is a pain in the butt on all PC's I have used.  It is not installed on my Mac's and so far it has never been an issue.  Perhaps I am just lucky (touches wood quickly).

Jim
Ten years ago anti-virus software wasn't nearly as good as it is now.  Properly selected and installed, anti-virus software is a non-issue.  It just does it's job and you forget it's there until it has occasion to warn you about something.

This mindset that Mac's don't need anti-virus software.  I understand the authors of viruses need them to spread and infect more machines, and with more PC's out there they make the better target.  A side effect of success I suppose.  Yet, with Mac's gaining market share does anyone think that will change?
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: Farmer on February 09, 2012, 04:31:01 pm
As Steve said, the "issue" of anti-virus is a huge furphy.  You can get it for free, from Microsoft, and never have a problem or a system slow down or any such thing.

Of course, if you pay any attention at all to the kind of sites you visit and the emails you open, you have a very, very, very small chance of ever encountering a virus.  People who are click-happy and decide to install all sorts of rubbish on their computers or open every email, will probably see many more virii, but on a modern system with a/v it will just protect them from themselves.

Steve's also right that Mac just doesn't represent any value to target - small market share and would require new coding and additional effort.  At some point that may change, but for now Mac effectively enjoys "security through obscurity" (not quite the same, but similar concept).
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: rambler44 on February 12, 2012, 10:34:19 am
I think Quickbooks is relatively new to Mac.  If you use other software to write checks, not all of them in fact very few, can run on a Mac.  (eg. I use Checksoft with Quicken.  Checksoft does not run on a Mac.)  So be careful.

I can easily take a Mac Airbook into the field with me , so I can take a quick look at my images before leaving a site.  An Ipad 2 would be even easier to keep tethered while in the field.
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: W.T. Jones on February 12, 2012, 11:08:44 am
I think Quickbooks is relatively new to Mac.  If you use other software to write checks, not all of them in fact very few, can run on a Mac.  (eg. I use Checksoft with Quicken.  Checksoft does not run on a Mac.)  So be careful.

I can easily take a Mac Airbook into the field with me , so I can take a quick look at my images before leaving a site.  An Ipad 2 would be even easier to keep tethered while in the field.

Not for check writing that is done at the office, I use QB in the field for generating invoices at the end of a job if I am on the road. I think I will investigate Parallels Desktop (as opposed to bootcamp) and install Windows. Something I did not not realize one could do when I started this conversation. I am slowly coming out of my cave, but the light bothers my eyes!
Title: Re: why a mac...or I need a new laptop
Post by: jjj on February 13, 2012, 10:38:35 pm
I think Quickbooks is relatively new to Mac.  If you use other software to write checks, not all of them in fact very few, can run on a Mac.  (eg. I use Checksoft with Quicken.  Checksoft does not run on a Mac.)  So be careful.
Quicken been on Macs for quite a while. What they still haven't done is upgrade their software and now it won't work on Lion.

Intuit being crap. (http://quicken.intuit.com/support/help/install--register--and-convert/quicken-for-mac-compatibility-with-mac-osx-10-7-lion/GEN83208.html)