Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => Discussing Photographic Styles => Topic started by: torger on February 03, 2012, 06:38:14 am

Title: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: torger on February 03, 2012, 06:38:14 am
Peter Lik's new photo of a large moon with a tree in front and a star sky behind:

http://www.lik.com/thework/newrelease.html
http://www.lik.com/media/catalog/category/WG858.jpg

has rendered some discussion on the net. I'm kind of interested to know what you think. Is this ok?

Despite the romantic one-shot description on the new release page he does admit that it is a composite, f/11 1/250 for the moon, f/2.8 20 sec for the sky. The moon picture would of course be all black except for the moon, thus the black shadow on the moon not matching the sky color, as if the moon was inside the atmosphere.

The FOV is also interesting, a moon that size would require about 0.6 degree FOV, or 2300mm, or extensive cropping on the 5D (presumable mark 2). You can buy a vintage 1200mm/5.6 if you can find a copy, but you couldn't shoot at f/2.8 then, meaning that the f/2.8 shot must have been shot with another lens. Some say that the density of stars and color gradient in the sky does not match the FOV of the moon, that is that a more wide angle has been used for the sky, and thus different viewpoint, which would explain how f/2.8 was possible. Of course star trails would have been evident with 0.6 degree FOV and 20 seconds.

Perhaps a more likely lens for the moon is a 800mm/5.6 with a 2x teleconverter, yielding 1600mm f/11 and 0.86 degree vertical FOV, which is about 1.6 moons, so you would have to crop a bit too. I'm not experienced with these focal lengths, perhaps it is difficult to get moon and tree that sharp simultaneously in the same shot at f/11?

Print size is said to be 55" X 43", which full res 5Dmk2 would be 87 ppi, but with cropping if 1600mm has been used perhaps only around 60 ppi.

Many things are strange about this picture, I'd really like to know how it was done.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Anders_HK on February 03, 2012, 09:05:34 am
In two words: Superb, Stellar.

To describe more, Peter Lik is an artist and excellent such, in my opinion one of best landscape photographers of our lifetime. The text does not state it is not a composite. The final image is superb and stellar.

And I do like his work, this image is a very good one.

Best regards,
Anders
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Rob C on February 03, 2012, 09:15:04 am
Heysoos, I must be out of touch!

Turn back the clock a few years and Tony Stone, Image Bank and almost everybody else in the business had kissin' cousins of that on rental.

I suspect that some of you guys need to spend more time looking at stock photography sites if this stuff can excite you...

Rob C
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: torger on February 03, 2012, 09:50:01 am
I do appreciate much of Lik's work too, but this picture is just puzzling. "Why?" and "how?" are my questions.

One likely way this image was made is this

1) take one picture with 800/5.6 + 2x TC f/11 1/250, which of course is all black except for the moon with tree branch showing
2) change lens walk up close to the tree, wait until moon is out of the way, take one shot wide-angle f/2.8 20 seconds high ISO. Wide angle increases star density and reduces star trails.

Then merge together in photoshop, the match wont be perfect due to the different perspectives, but since the shadow of the moon is to the right, the tree stitching error won't be as visible. Another possible way is that the moon has been shot separately with no tree at all in front of it, and then pasted in, that would be bad. I don't think he has done it like that, but since it obviously is a composite with different viewpoints I would not with his reputation dare to publish it without a clear description how it was made.

I think the creation process behind a photograph is important. I do think it is ok to do tricks multiple exposure HDR stitching etc to overcome photographic limitations, but creating new scenes that were not there, and sell it as a photograph? For shooting scenes with the moon there is a strong tradition in landscape photography to predict where it is going to be, find the exact right spot, wait until it lines up and shoot. Of course it would many times be much easier to just paste the moon in there out of a library of moons, but then it would not be a photograph. I think the authenticity of the scene has meaning, at least if you sell it as a photograph together with a romantic photographer's description of the "magic shutter moment".

If the image is created the way I describe above I think it is kind of ok. But if I would have done it myself I would have struggled with the fact that so many stars cannot be visible that close to the moon, and the moon's shadow should be the same as the sky, and simply come to the conclusion the composite does not work.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: feppe on February 03, 2012, 06:39:29 pm
I suspect that some of you guys need to spend more time looking at stock photography sites if this stuff can excite you...

I'm no Lik basher although his images are not to my tastes, but couldn't agree more with Rob. I clicked the link and regret the half a second I wasted looking at the 1000th "romantic" big moon image. Granted, it's usually a graphic artist who does this, and there's usually a wolf (http://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Three-Wolf-Short-Sleeve/dp/B002HJ377A)* involved, but wow, that's just bad bad bad.

* check out the truly epic reviews
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jalcocer on February 03, 2012, 07:08:54 pm
For me it is a superb image.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: ckimmerle on February 03, 2012, 07:26:15 pm
The text does not state it is not a composite.

The text infers in many places that this was a single shot:

"This shot has eluded me my entire photographic career"
"...I searched for days to line up this classic tree with the moon"
"The golden sphere slowly rose in front of me"
"I pressed the shutter, a feeling I'll never forget. The moon, tree, and earth."

As for the photo, it's nice. Like most of Lik's images, though, it's all show, no depth. The fact that he tries to fool people into thinking it's a single shows that even he knows it.

As for him being the best landscape photographers of our lifetime, that's a crock. He doesn't even make the top 100. Sure, he's pretty good, but he's as far from being the best as I am.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: John MacLean on February 04, 2012, 03:35:35 pm
OMGawd, he's definitely got a good copywriter. What a crock of shite! This is such an obvious composite, come on! I think the guys that have landscape galleries in Las Vegas love to bullshit everyone with their "how I made this image" crap. I know a couple that lie thru their teeth, and the pedestrian public eats it up. I wish "nature" photographers would fess up and not try to pull the wool over the public's eyes, because some of us know better. If an image is a composite of several elements, then just say so. Otherwise it doesn't bode well for the image maker in the long run. Just my opinion on the subject!

Lik's tv show on the Weather Channel shows him in exotic locales and I usually like the videographer's shots better than his cheesy film rebate framed image. He's ALL hype!

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: bill t. on February 04, 2012, 07:10:20 pm
I saw a very large framed version of this image a few days ago and I thought it looked kinda grungy as a print, versus the more dayglow ambiance of the rest of the pieces in the gallery.

The stars are rather blurred and the tree is oddly positioned relative to what a compositor might have created, so it just might be a single shot.  However, at least one other image in the gallery was clearly suspect re compositing.  But honestly I wouldn't hold a composite against him.  It's all about the image, that's my new mantra.  It's good enough for oil painters, it's good enough for me.

And the same copywriter is obviously coaching his gallery salespeople.

Let's see, an edition of 998 would work out to probably...more than $10,000,000.00 by his normal pricing strategy.  The "artist's proofs" and the last numbers in the edition cost a LOT more than the main edition.

Peter Lik knows his customers and what it takes to sell photographs to them, and I have to admire that.  I wish I had customers as sticker shock resistant as his.

And who said you could find better images on flickr within any randomly selected 5 pages of thumbnails?  Wasn't me, oh no.  And I also didn't say most Lik photographs were taken less than 300 yards from a parking lot.

But OTOH I enjoyed visiting his Vegas galleries and it was fun to see the pieces and the unmitigated flamboyance of it all.  I look forward to the day when I too can sell the final 998/998 piece of one of my editions for $1,000,000.00.

ps...hah!  The spell checker wants to change "compositing" to "composting."  Everybody's a critic!

edit...OK, doing a flip-flop.  It's a composite, definitely.  Stars out of focus, sharp edged moon, lotsa stuff.  Composite.  Funny how that comes through so much better on a little image than a humongous print.  But my only complaint is, it should have been done better.  There was also a Milky Way shot in the gallery that is probably real but a little wanting.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: tim wolcott on February 04, 2012, 11:33:52 pm
Another stock image that has been done over and over again.  Really if think this work is good,  I suggest you get out see some real images and that are properly printed.  It obviously was conceived thru many layers of photoshop just like the one called Tree of Universe.  It would be nice to actually see him shoot something that is not give me type shot and print it himself.  

Really I have seen at least Nat'l Geo, Sunset mag, Arizona Highways and yes Stone images have the same shot basically.  Really come up with something original, Hey have an original thought Peter.  If you like that image just scan or cut out the magazine and save yourself a lot of money.  T
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: bill t. on February 05, 2012, 01:03:40 am
Peter Lik sure bothers us, doesn't he?  I'm afraid to ask why, I might learn too much about myself.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Anders_HK on February 05, 2012, 04:07:29 am
Peter Lik sure bothers us, doesn't he?  I'm afraid to ask why, I might learn too much about myself.

Jealousness for that he is making $$ and very good at that and is likewise very good at what he makes, aka his art??  ;)
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: tim wolcott on February 05, 2012, 10:53:55 am
I think it what Barnum once said, "A sucker born every second."  If the client buying artwork spent more time looking at what they were buying and looking at more artwork.  To see what artwork is really out there for them to buy.  Mediocrity would not prevail!!!!!

"Mediocrity is not a Standard."  A phrase I like to say, but look Microsoft, Lik and other companies seem to do well creating mediocrity.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on February 05, 2012, 01:38:04 pm
When I saw the image and read the text my first thought was: "fake" and I felt deceived and disappointed.
And this has nothing to do with it being a possible composite, more with the overall look-and-feel of the image - in my eyes kitsch.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: bill t. on February 05, 2012, 02:42:13 pm
People who buy Lik's art do so because they have never seen anything else like it.  It is flamboyant in subject and presentation.  As far as those buyers are concerned, those pieces are the very opposite of mediocrity, they positively stand out from everything else!  His market is basketball players, football players, sports announcers, ex-presidents and other wealthy people who like to feel they are "living big" and the perceived bigger-than-life boldness of Lik's pieces speaks to them.  But mainly they act as a mirror to how the buyers feel about themselves.

Art is a mirror, I'm convinced of that.  When people find something inside themselves reflected in imagery, they are greatly affected by it.  And I have to give Peter some credit there.

So can anybody make a case based on reason why Peter Lik's aesthetics are inferior to our aesthetics here on LuLa?  No quips, no sound-bytes, no perfunctory put-downs, no memes, no out-of-hand dismissals, no ad-hominem slaps, but actual REASONED STATEMENTS why "our" artistic ways might be better than Peter's?

I tried, but if I'm honest it always reduces down to me trying to feel superior! :)
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 05, 2012, 03:27:25 pm
People who buy Lik's art do so because they have never seen anything else like it.  It is flamboyant in subject and presentation.  As far as those buyers are concerned, those pieces are the very opposite of mediocrity, they positively stand out from everything else!  His market is basketball players, football players, sports announcers, ex-presidents and other wealthy people who like to feel they are "living big" and the perceived bigger-than-life boldness of Lik's pieces speaks to them.  But mainly they act as a mirror to how the buyers feel about themselves.

Art is a mirror, I'm convinced of that.  When people find something inside themselves reflected in imagery, they are greatly affected by it....

Well said, Bill.


Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Anders_HK on February 05, 2012, 11:37:07 pm
People who buy Lik's art do so because they have never seen anything else like it.  It is flamboyant in subject and presentation.  As far as those buyers are concerned, those pieces are the very opposite of mediocrity, they positively stand out from everything else!  His market is basketball players, football players, sports announcers, ex-presidents and other wealthy people who like to feel they are "living big" and the perceived bigger-than-life boldness of Lik's pieces speaks to them.  But mainly they act as a mirror to how the buyers feel about themselves.

Art is a mirror, I'm convinced of that.  When people find something inside themselves reflected in imagery, they are greatly affected by it.  And I have to give Peter some credit there.

+1 very, very well said.

I would go further; what is art???

Is what Bill stated not what art is about? The perception of others, those who are willing to hang it on their walls and enjoy it???

Or does art have to follow a set mold, come from a certain school where all is perfect, pretty pictures in repeat??

Heaven forbid if someone makes big $$ on art. We live in a much commercial world. Considering that, and the differing times of society, the analogy between Peter Lik and Ansel Adams is perhaps not at all profound. Ansel wrote for the national parks, Peter Lik in todays commercial world spread the image of the wilderness and adventure on basis of commercialism, which is precisely what todays world is about!!! Dont get me wrong, my own opinion is that this world is way too commercial, but Peter Lik seems to stare it and grab it right in the eye.  ::)

Best regards,
Anders
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: torger on February 06, 2012, 04:38:44 am
I'm kind of surprised of the reactions.

Although it may be debatable if a frame-filling moon represents exquisite taste, my concern is not that.

The problem I have is that the image is a composite, while the market speak implies that it is a single shot. Not only that, the composite is not made from a single position with the same lens at the same time, but with two different lenses from different positions. Going that far down the line, it is not far to a full "clip-art montage", mounting a moon shot separately behind the tree -- I don't think he has done that, but the somewhat manipulative presentation of the image raises my suspicion.

As I see it, landscape photography is much about "being at the right place at the right time". From this aspect this moon shot is technically difficult. You need to find a tree with free sight 2 km away or so (remember this is ~2200 mm focal length), and get the full moon to line up behind it. Good taste or not, it is impressive. But was this real?

Here in Sweden I feel that the culture among photographers is that the documentary aspect is important, even for landscape photographers. You may do adjustments, some dodge-and-burn and HDR and stitching (you still were at the right place at the right time), but if it is a multiple viewpoint composite or largely a photoshop creation you better say it and certainly not market it implying it is a single shot or you may severely harm your credibility and career.

It is not only about the resulting picture. You can make artificial diamonds look really nice, but still people pay a lot more for the the real thing. It is the same about photography, you can compose a great looking picture in photoshop where you did not be at the right place at the right time, but that is still not the same thing as really being there - which is valued much higher. Still you would be able through market speak to convince non-photographers that it is real and sell it at that price.

Lik's picture here is a special case. Probably the moon shot was at the right place at the right time. But everything outside the moon (also the tree outside it) is taken from another viewpoint, with another lens. The composite is also highly unrealistic (wide angle and extreme tele in same shot, moon inside atmosphere) so it is not just a "HDR" type of shot when multiple shots were taken to overcome camera limitations. So parts of it is good photography, and part of it is on the way down the slippery slope towards clip-art montage, at the same time marketed in a way that may cause non-photographer customers believe that they buy a true single shot photograph.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: BFoto on February 06, 2012, 06:11:25 am
People who buy Lik's art do so because they have never seen anything else like it.  It is flamboyant in subject and presentation.  As far as those buyers are concerned, those pieces are the very opposite of mediocrity, they positively stand out from everything else!  His market is basketball players, football players, sports announcers, ex-presidents and other wealthy people who like to feel they are "living big" and the perceived bigger-than-life boldness of Lik's pieces speaks to them.  But mainly they act as a mirror to how the buyers feel about themselves.

Art is a mirror, I'm convinced of that.  When people find something inside themselves reflected in imagery, they are greatly affected by it.  And I have to give Peter some credit there.



+1

A mate of mine in the US has 7 of his works and pays 10s of thousands for each piece, especially trying to get higher up the limitied editions. I was very sceptical and had somewhat of a -ve attitude towards my mate, often stating he had more money than sense (which he does!).

But, the first time i walked into his house in Houston, I was gobsmacked at the shear size, enormity, and grandosity of each piece. And being a photographer, i pixel peeped, analyzed and critiqued each piece for hours, sober and then not so much....

In the end, i have to say i was more than impressed with MOST of the work, and was quite envious of the ablity to create such giant art. My main critique of his prints in the end was his final output sharpening. Some of the images are tac sharp outstanding and a couple of them not sharp at all (poor). Yet my 5D and 1D just dont resolve that big....I think?

My mate has a big house with big wide and high walls that these images only barely fill. Until I start making such high quality images that size, in order to COMPETE with Lik, I guess my mate and many others will continue to pay a premium for what few offer.



Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Rob C on February 06, 2012, 09:28:16 am
I don't really think that my own problem is with one photographer. I think it's more about what constitutes art.

Reference has been made to sports stars (okay, their wallets) and I don't think of them as any sort of rôle model in my life. The only place I can remember seeing, and getting to know too well, really huge prints from photographic images was in the hospital where my wife had her final two operations. I walked those corridors many a night and day, the pictures being all that I could see that wasn't hospital. I grew to dislike them intensely, wishing they had at least been photographic and not digital. Even better would have been paintings, which the earlier hospital had by the dozen.

I'm really afraid that it comes down to an unpalatable truth (for me): photography is an art, in some cases, but an inferior one at best.

If Lik can make money out of his photography, good for him, and power to his elbow. Nobody is pressuring me to spend the little that I can afford!
 
Rob C
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: sailronin on February 06, 2012, 04:27:33 pm
The photograph (graphic art?) is quite striking, I'm sure his audience (fan base) is thrilled with his latest "work of art".
I think the guy has a formula and it work great for him much like Thomas Kinkade and his production art. He'll never be an Edward Weston or Paul Strand or Ansel Adams, but none of them died rich.  He makes a fortune out of photographing what he wants, wish I could do the same.

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: sierraman on March 09, 2012, 12:30:38 am
(Peter Lik) This shot has eluded me my entire photographic career. I have spent years trying to perfect this image, there are so many variables you don't even think about. It's a really touchy image, but when it all lines up, the result is out of this world… literally. I have drawers full of transparencies that I have shot over decades that just didn't cut it. I tried all the variables--different lenses, exposures, compositions, times, then much to my frustration the results back from the lab were always disappointing.

The remoteness of Kodachrome Basin in Utah was an obvious choice to finally nail this elusive image; remote, clean air, and a selection of cliff tops to shoot from. I had been watching the phase of the moon and tonight the moon was close to full. I had a specific composition in my mind and I searched for days to line up this classic tree with the moon. Tonight I hope it all comes together. It was a long night but I knew at some point my perseverance would be rewarded.

I was white-knuckled as I set up the mammoth lens, filling the viewfinder with this balanced scene, the tree framed amongst the rocks and the low lying clouds added to the tension… this had to work. The desert silence was stunning, my pulse raced, I could hear the blood running through my veins. Then, I saw the horizon starting to glow. The golden sphere slowly rose in front of me. I was totally stunned. I couldn't believe it. So connected to this lunar giant that I was trembling. Such an impact on my life. I pressed the shutter, a feeling I'll never forget. The moon, tree, and earth.

I hope to share with you this amazing connection I had on this special evening with the moon, that affects our lives. It certainly affected mine.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Michael West on March 09, 2012, 12:41:06 am
 Id hazard to say that its the radical unfamiliarty of seeing a distant tree and horizon with that sort of magnification  

the juxtaposition of the moon to the tree and horizon are not what one would ever likely be capable of  seeing with the naked eye  

t

As I understand it the longer the lens the more pronounced the foreshortening which would account for the odd look" of the size of the moon tree and hill.

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: LoisWakeman on March 14, 2012, 08:31:55 am
A bit late to the party, but: it doesn't do it for me - shades of ET going home, and (de)motivational posters. Kitsch but not in a fun way. However, if we believe half what the guy or his PR agent says, he is onto a winning formula - and good luck to him.

I'm a bit of a stickler for some degree of believability in a landscape image. I know we can choose viewpoints and use lenses and post processing to see what the eye cannot - however this seems to go too far for my taste. But I am sure lots of people I know would think it was great - and that's' what's so interesting about humanity - we are all different, just like everybody else! (Now there's a slogan for a poster...)  ;D
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Rob C on March 14, 2012, 10:17:52 am
I lead a sheltered life in exile; I'd never seen Lik on my radar before this thread. However, though not impressed with the Moon, I do like the River of Zen shot, the one with blurred water and rusty leaves. Perhaps that's because of the attraction of something simple, well done; much like a boiled egg, in other words. And I can't pick a fight with one of those.

Rob C
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Justan on March 15, 2012, 11:54:31 am
While I know naught about this fellow, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lik) he is a role model in how to succeed in landscape photography.

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: LoisWakeman on March 15, 2012, 12:12:18 pm
Ah - but who wrote the Wikipedia entry? (Call me a cynic...)
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Justan on March 15, 2012, 12:29:33 pm
^That’s a valid point but all the same, accordingly, he did get a million dollars for a print and has sold many many others for a princely sum, gotten more than a fist of awards, has or had 13 galleries, sold lots of books, has more yada yadas than most……..

Imo this makes him a role model for how to succeed....

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: sierraman on March 15, 2012, 07:29:36 pm
Whikipedia quote,

"Peter Lik is a self-taught Australian landscape photographer.[1] While traveling in Alaska in 1984, Lik began to experiment with panoramic cameras. He is known for his limited editions and his work has been compared to that of legendary photographer Ansel Adams."

"Ansel Adams". Say what? ???
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: PierreVandevenne on March 16, 2012, 11:10:41 am
Here's what a moon that has just come over the horizon should look like

http://nationalgeographicdaily.tumblr.com/post/6661391061/full-moon-rising-photograph-by-stefan-seip-the

Notice something?

Also, yes, the starfields look _very_ fishy. Yes, there should be star trails with a long exposure. And there should be more stars, and more variation.

Also, even assuming this gentlemen has perfect technique, the moon image is amazingly sharp and crispy for something outside the atmosphere that's just above the horizon.

Also, assuming the sun set on the right of that image (ok, there isn't much sky to tell, but right is clearly more likely than left) what lights the moon? Now, if a full or near full moon rises at sunset, where is it located relatively to the sun? On the opposite side of course. Typically, a moon near the horizon at sunset following the sun obviously looks like this

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/upload/2011/09/who_discovered_the_earth_is_ro/MoonMercury_zubenel_c800.jpeg

Very very lame composite.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Justan on March 17, 2012, 11:49:47 am
^It might be. It’s obvious that he was using an astronomical motion control camera tripod and related goodies, such as this one (http://www.losmandy.com/starlapse.html). That would eliminate most or all of the blur. But having never worked with this kind of setup personally, I don’t know if it could produce the results we see in the image. However, I have seen a lot of really impressive results when using this kind of tripod setup before.

If anyone is interested to find out if this is a composite, you can always contact someone who can provide a direct answer http://www.lik.com/contacts/
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: PierreVandevenne on March 17, 2012, 01:50:42 pm

Thinks about it for a minute: yes, you can track the stars. But then the fixed background is blurred.
And anyone who has tracked and shot stars knows that they don't look a bit like they do here.

When is the last time you saw a round sun or moon near the horizon?

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: JohnTodd on March 22, 2012, 12:52:00 pm
...his work has been compared to that of legendary photographer Ansel Adams

Well, *my* work has been compared to Ansel Adams as well. In fact, I compared it just the other day, and I found that mine was vastly inferior!
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 22, 2012, 02:31:26 pm
^That’s a valid point but all the same, accordingly, he did get a million dollars for a print and has sold many many others for a princely sum, gotten more than a fist of awards, has or had 13 galleries, sold lots of books, has more yada yadas than most……..

Imo this makes him a role model for how to succeed....

How to succeed at what, Justan? Make money? If that's the objective, check Andreas Gursky's "Rhein II" which sold for 4.3 mil U.S. When you look at the picture be sure you're sitting down because you may fall asleep. Gursky didn't even have to push the color saturation. What he did was become accepted inside the "art world" as someone whose work would, in the future, by popular acclaim, rise in price (notice I didn't say "value.") Same thing with Cindy Sherman's incredibly blah "Untitled #96," which sold for 3.89 mil. What you're looking at is the "art market," which has damned little to do with art.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Justan on March 23, 2012, 02:04:38 pm
> How to succeed at what, Justan?

Previously answered, Russ. Post # 25. Try working on reading comprehension.

> … What you're looking at is the "art market," which has damned little to do with art.

A very revealing deflection, Russ.

It’s always a good idea to learn from people who are successful in specific fields.

Thanks for the chuckle.

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 23, 2012, 02:22:17 pm
...Try working on reading comprehension...

Bad-hair day, Nancy?
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Rob C on March 23, 2012, 04:38:58 pm
Bad-hair day, Nancy?


Just the snap for this:

Rob C
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 23, 2012, 07:17:14 pm
> How to succeed at what, Justan?

Previously answered, Russ. Post # 25. Try working on reading comprehension.

> … What you're looking at is the "art market," which has damned little to do with art.

A very revealing deflection, Russ.

It’s always a good idea to learn from people who are successful in specific fields.

Thanks for the chuckle.

Glad you had a light-hearted moment, Justan, but you didn't answer my question. Post #25 doesn't answer it. Successful in what way? Is Gursky's photograph fine art, worth 4.3 million? If so, what distinguishes it from the average tourist snapshot, which, if this is the standard, ought to be worth at least 4 million and change. How about Sherman's "Untitled #98?" What do you see in it that distinguishes it from the average family snapshot and makes it worth roughly 3.98 million more than a print you'd get for $5 from the local drugstore?

What I see is an artificial "art" market that, in many ways, is a lot like the Federal Reserve. The "value" of its product is accepted on faith. In one case the object is a dollar bill. In the other it's a photographic print.


Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Rob C on March 24, 2012, 05:11:19 am
Glad you had a light-hearted moment, Justan, but you didn't answer my question. Post #25 doesn't answer it. Successful in what way? Is Gursky's photograph fine art, worth 4.3 million? If so, what distinguishes it from the average tourist snapshot, which, if this is the standard, ought to be worth at least 4 million and change. How about Sherman's "Untitled #98?" What do you see in it that distinguishes it from the average family snapshot and makes it worth roughly 3.98 million more than a print you'd get for $5 from the local drugstore?

What I see is an artificial "art" market that, in many ways, is a lot like the Federal Reserve. The "value" of its product is accepted on faith. In one case the object is a dollar bill. In the other it's a photographic print.



And in both cases, there are frequent forgeries.

Rob C
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: JohnTodd on March 24, 2012, 07:19:29 pm
Having been in three of Mr. Lik's galleries in Las Vegas recently, I decided that I didn't care for the majority of his work, which is probably a fair aesthetic judgement. However, what really struck me is the emphasis in the sales pitch about the investment value of each piece, particularly the structuring of each release to maximise the ROI to the buyer. Boasting about the number of prints sold sight-unseen seems to take this work out of the realm of visual art...
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Rob C on March 25, 2012, 05:49:32 am
Having been in three of Mr. Lik's galleries in Las Vegas recently, I decided that I didn't care for the majority of his work, which is probably a fair aesthetic judgement. However, what really struck me is the emphasis in the sales pitch about the investment value of each piece, particularly the structuring of each release to maximise the ROI to the buyer. Boasting about the number of prints sold sight-unseen seems to take this work out of the realm of visual art...


Yes, and makes Russ seem even more correct in his views about the world or 'art'!

Rob C
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: EduPerez on March 26, 2012, 04:40:14 am
What I see is an artificial "art" market that, in many ways, is a lot like the Federal Reserve. The "value" of its product is accepted on faith. In one case the object is a dollar bill. In the other it's a photographic print.

But isn't this the case for everything nowadays? ... Stock exchange? Real state? Food?
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 26, 2012, 07:20:45 am
What I see is an artificial "art" market that, in many ways, is a lot like the Federal Reserve. The "value" of its product is accepted on faith. In one case the object is a dollar bill. In the other it's a photographic print.

Actually, a terrible analogy ... Russ, keep the politics out of it.

What gives the dollar value is the word and faith of the American people and the government's ability to tax our output - which is enormous and very real.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 26, 2012, 11:13:38 am
What gives the dollar value is the word and faith of the American people and the government's ability to tax our output...

Which is rapidly approaching its terminus.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 26, 2012, 12:39:25 pm
Which is rapidly approaching its terminus.

Not even close, Russ.

The yield on the US Gov't 10 Year is about 2.2% ... that tells you everything you need to know.

You can tell me you are right and several trillion dollars of real money is wrong, but I would have no choice but to laugh at you.

You've fallen for a bunch of republican claptrap ...
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Rob C on March 26, 2012, 01:10:51 pm
Not even close, Russ.

The yield on the US Gov't 10 Year is about 2.2% ... that tells you everything you need to know.

You can tell me you are right and several trillion dollars of real money is wrong, but I would have no choice but to laugh at you.

You've fallen for a bunch of republican claptrap ...


Whereas you've fallen for...?

I fell for Brigitte, but only after a torrid affair with Ava, Susan and even a fan letter to Kathryn.

Statistics: the only one's worth squat are 36-26-36; the rest are figures and figments of the imagination; they are infinitely variable and open to interpretation by any and all interest groups. Playing with them provides careers!

Rob C
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Justan on March 26, 2012, 01:59:45 pm
you didn't answer my question. Post #25 doesn't answer it. Successful in what way?

Don’t be obtuse, Russ, unless it’s beyond you to do anything else. Do you agree or disagree that Lik has had a successful career? Yes or no. If your answer is “no” then can you provide any evidence to support your claim?

> Is Gursky's photograph fine art, worth 4.3 million?

Are you alluding to his Rhein II which recently sold for $4.3 million? If you are asking about this work can you make a case that the buyer was coerced into buying it? If you can't make that case, then absolutely yes, it was worth the amount paid for it.

If you are alluding to another of Gursky’s works, then state which work.

> If so, what distinguishes it from the average tourist snapshot, which, if this is the standard, ought to be worth at least 4 million and change.

I’m not a professional art appraiser so don’t have an authoritative answer, but two words will summarize: Critical acclaim.

> How about Sherman's "Untitled #98?" What do you see in it that distinguishes it from the average family snapshot and makes it worth roughly 3.98 million more than a print you'd get for $5 from the local drugstore?

See above.

> What I see is an artificial "art" market that, in many ways, is a lot like the Federal Reserve. The "value" of its product is accepted on faith. In one case the object is a dollar bill. In the other it's a photographic print.

I’m sure you do see that. However using a weak analogy to attempt a facile point is not very bright. Yet that is exactly what you did.

If you want to claim the value of art is artificial then stick to that point and it will fall on its face when compared to other works by successful artists over history. People are willing to pay a lot for things they like. This is known as a fact. When an artist does successful work after successful work over a span of years to decades, the works tend to draw larger purchase prices. That too, is undisputable.

It’s one thing to not like an artist or their works. I’m fine with that. Bluntly, only an idiot or emotionally disturbed individual would state that obviously successful artists are not, in fact, successful.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on March 26, 2012, 02:10:57 pm
Artistic value is not measured in $$.
Market value is.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 26, 2012, 02:14:07 pm
Russ: The "value" of the dollar is accepted on faith...

Jeremy: No, Russ, you are terribly wrong: what gives the dollar value is the word and faith of the American people...

Me: ???
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 26, 2012, 02:33:46 pm
The yield on the US Gov't 10 Year is about 2.2% ... that tells you everything you need to know.

What it tells me is that there are people who believe there's a way to pull in all the funny money that's been pushed out the door without bringing on an inflation that'll make the Weimar Republic look like a financially stable government. Or, to put it a different way, what it tells me is that Barnum grossly underestimated the situation, or at least failed to anticipate future increases in the birthrate of the subjects of his dictum.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 26, 2012, 02:46:34 pm
Russ: The "value" of the dollar is accepted on faith...

Jeremy: No, Russ, you are terribly wrong: what gives the dollar value is the word and faith of the American people...

Me: ???

Fair point ... but faith in the productivity of the US worker is a bit different than what underpins the art market. 
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 26, 2012, 02:53:33 pm
Don’t be obtuse, Russ, unless it’s beyond you to do anything else. Do you agree or disagree that Lik has had a successful career? Yes or no. If your answer is “no” then can you provide any evidence to support your claim?

Sorry, Justan, and I know this is going to blow your mind, but I don't equate "success" with money. I don't agree that Lik has had a "successful" career. I would submit that Gene Smith had a successful career even though he died a pauper. Gene Smith made photographs that will still move people a hundred years from now. Lik makes photographs that people will store in their attics once the novelty has worn off.

Quote
Are you alluding to his Rhein II which recently sold for $4.3 million? If you are asking about this work can you make a case that the buyer was coerced into buying it? If you can't make that case, then absolutely yes, it was worth the amount paid for it.

If you are alluding to another of Gursky’s works, then state which work.

You seem to be having trouble with reading comprehension, Justan. Evidently you didn't comprehend post #33.

Quote
I’m not a professional art appraiser so don’t have an authoritative answer, but two words will summarize: Critical acclaim.

Critical acclaim from whom? Ahhh... yes. The "fine art" market people, including "professional art appraisers," those folks who resemble priests in a cult, and who, with their dicta, reinforce the financial faith of the people who buy this kind of crap.

Quote
If you want to claim the value of art is artificial then stick to that point and it will fall on its face when compared to other works by successful artists over history. People are willing to pay a lot for things they like. This is known as a fact. When an artist does successful work after successful work over a span of years to decades, the works tend to draw larger purchase prices. That too, is undisputable.

It’s one thing to not like an artist or their works. I’m fine with that. Bluntly, only an idiot or emotionally disturbed individual would state that obviously successful artists are not, in fact, successful.

You mean "financially successful." That rarely has much to do with the value of a work. As I pointed out earlier, in the "fine art market," value and price don't seem to be coupled -- even loosely.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 26, 2012, 02:55:36 pm

Whereas you've fallen for...?


My own analysis and understanding of markets ... I have a graduate degree in finance and a fair bit of experience in such matters.

Anyone who states that the US Government is at the end of the line with respect to its borrowing capacity isn't paying attention to facts (or what the market is saying) and is either playing a political game or has become the unwitting victim of a bunch of political claptrap.

Fortunately for us, we could borrow A LOT more ... not saying we SHOULD ... just saying we CAN.

And that is why the 10 Year Treasury trades where it does today ... not because people are stupid ... but because the bond market doesn't  really pay much attention to the politics of nonsense.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 26, 2012, 03:09:31 pm
... only an idiot or emotionally disturbed individual would state that obviously successful artists are not, in fact, successful.


What the heck, Nancy!!!?? Really!?

You seriously just called a senior (in every sense) member of this forum "an idiot or emotionally disturbed"!? You can't take a difference in opinion without name calling!? I am all for a good rhetorical fight, but come on, how about some modicum of decency while we are at it? Sheesh!
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 26, 2012, 03:22:01 pm
It's okay, Slobodan. I may be 82, but in a verbal fight I'm not quite defenseless.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 26, 2012, 03:25:51 pm
My own analysis and understanding of markets ... I have a graduate degree in finance and a fair bit of experience in such matters.

Anyone who states that the US Government is at the end of the line with respect to its borrowing capacity isn't paying attention to facts (or what the market is saying) and is either playing a political game or has become the unwitting victim of a bunch of political claptrap.

Fortunately for us, we could borrow A LOT more ... not saying we SHOULD ... just saying we CAN.

And that is why the 10 Year Treasury trades where it does today ... not because people are stupid ... but because the bond market doesn't  really pay much attention to the politics of nonsense.

Jeremy, I'm not going to argue with you, and I'm not backing off because of your credentials, which, in most people I find meaningless, though I doubt that would be true in your case. I'm backing off because at this point it's a matter of opinion. All we can do is wait and see what happens. I very much hope I'm wrong and you're right. (But I doubt it.)
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Rob C on March 26, 2012, 05:10:42 pm
My own analysis and understanding of markets ... I have a graduate degree in finance and a fair bit of experience in such matters.




I'm informed that anyone who defends himself at law has an idiot for a client. I wonder if this also applies to finance...

Rob C
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 26, 2012, 05:44:27 pm


I'm informed that anyone who defends himself at law has an idiot for a client. I wonder if this also applies to finance...

Rob C

Sorry, Rob ... but you aren't really making any sense. 

Say "Goodnight", Gracie. 

"Goodnight Gracie"

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: sierraman on March 26, 2012, 06:16:22 pm
I thought we were talking about Peter Lik.  :)
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 26, 2012, 06:18:15 pm
I thought we were talking about Peter Lik.  :)

Ok then:

Say "Goodnight", Peter.

"Goodnight Peter"

 ;D
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Rob C on March 27, 2012, 05:19:04 am
Sorry, Rob ... but you aren't really making any sense. 

Say "Goodnight", Gracie. 

"Goodnight Gracie"





Perception is all; I perceive the sense most clearly. As I would.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 28, 2012, 08:35:17 am
Not even close, Russ.

The yield on the US Gov't 10 Year is about 2.2% ... that tells you everything you need to know.

You can tell me you are right and several trillion dollars of real money is wrong, but I would have no choice but to laugh at you.

You've fallen for a bunch of republican claptrap ...

Jeremy, For a somewhat different opinion check the editorial pages in this morning's Wall Street Journal for Lawrence Goodman's article: "Demand for U.S. Debt Is Not Limitless."
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 28, 2012, 09:00:29 am
Jeremy, For a somewhat different opinion check the editorial pages in this morning's Wall Street Journal for Lawrence Goodman's article: "Demand for U.S. Debt Is Not Limitless."

That's the republican claptrap I'm talking about.

Take a look at Ireland ... they have followed that advice ... they reduced their debt and deficit ... and they are sinking into a morass of stagnation and persistent unemployment.

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 28, 2012, 10:46:52 am
Actually, a terrible analogy ... Russ, keep the politics out of it.
 
That's the republican claptrap I'm talking about.

Take a look at Ireland ... they have followed that advice ... they reduced their debt and deficit ... and they are sinking into a morass of stagnation and persistent unemployment.

Aren't you the guy who said "keep the politics out of it?"

So anything published in the WSJ is "Republican claptrap," but anything published in the NYT is the word of the almighty? Even op-ed on the front page of the NYT posing as news, and then, later found to have been, and acknowledged by the Times to have been, pure fiction written by rogue "reporters," not caught because they were "reporting" what the owners and masters of the NYT hoped and believed to be true?

Come on, Jeremy, you can do better than that. As usual, the Irish will be just fine. They're taking the lumps they let themselves in for and digging their way out. If we're smart we'll start doing the same thing next year, but we've often shown ourselves not to be smart. The longer we pretend we can have a perpetual party on hope and change and borrowed money the harder it's going to be to sober up and pay the bill. If we wait much longer the only politically possible solution is going to be to monetize the debt and wipe out anyone who, as you put it, "had faith in the dollar," and saved it. Are you ready to be paid in billion-dollar bills?

Oh, and where was that stagnation and persistent unemployment? Was that Detroit? Maybe Oakland? Fresno...?
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 28, 2012, 01:42:32 pm
...Are you ready to be paid in billion-dollar bills?...

I was.

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 28, 2012, 02:12:26 pm
Aren't you the guy who said "keep the politics out of it?"

So you refer to the editorial page of the WSJ?

So anything published in the WSJ is "Republican claptrap,"

On the editorial page?  Yup.

but anything published in the NYT is the word of the almighty?

Did I say that?

"Goodnight Gracie."

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 28, 2012, 03:43:33 pm
You didn't answer my question, Jeremy. What Slobodan showed probably is the future of the U.S. unless we get things under control tout de suite. Visualize that 500 billion with "Federal Reserve Note" printed in English at the top. That'll get the government out from under its obligations in a hurry.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Rob C on March 28, 2012, 04:36:52 pm
I sort of remember using the peseta, and years before that, the lira. I used to be a multi-millionaire in the days of the peseta and lira.

Sadly, I'm now as poor as ever I was, in any money that I'd still use.

Rob C
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: JonathanRimmel on March 28, 2012, 05:54:06 pm
I think this is more than obviously a composite. In fact it reminds me some the fantasy spacescapes which I myself like to do in Photoshop. So while there is nothing really wrong with the image. I would not say it is all that fantastic, nor would I in good conscience call it a photograph.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 29, 2012, 07:05:32 am
You didn't answer my question, Jeremy. What Slobodan showed probably is the future of the U.S. unless we get things under control tout de suite. Visualize that 500 billion with "Federal Reserve Note" printed in English at the top. That'll get the government out from under its obligations in a hurry.

You keep wanting to play political ping-pong ... I don't really like to play that game anymore. 

That's fine ... it's your opinion* against the collective wisdom of thousands of investors holding and buying trillions of dollars of long-dated treasuries.

You could be right and they could all be wrong.

We'll see.

(*Is it really yours?  Or are you just repeating stuff you've heard others say that you really, truly don't understand ... be honest ...)
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 29, 2012, 08:46:08 am
Jeremy, more "Republican claptrap" in this morning's WSJ that you probably ought to check out: "The Dangers of an Interventionist Fed," by John B. Taylor. But, of course, that kind of article by a professor of economics simply shows that it's stuff he's heard but doesn't understand.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 29, 2012, 10:14:19 am
What happened between 1937 and 1941 in the United States and why?
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 29, 2012, 11:02:21 am
What happened between 1937 and 1941 was that I lived part of 1938 in Buckeye, Arizona. The rest of the time I lived in Ferndale, Michigan. Why? Because that's what my parents decided we should do.

If you mean what happened to the economy, it remained slumped due to incompetent attempts at centralized management by FDR and his "brain trust."
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 29, 2012, 12:18:12 pm
... it's your opinion* against the collective wisdom of thousands of investors...

Hmmmm... so it boils down to "opinion" vs. "wisdom". Never mind that investors' "wisdom" is equally based on opinion and, even more important, on faith. Amassing thousands with the same opinion or faith does not turn it into a fact or wisdom.

Whole capitalism is based on faith. The engine of capitalism, arguably, is credit. Credit comes from Latin (credo, credere...) "I believe", as in "I believe that you will be able to return the money I lent you."

As for investors' "wisdom"... a rather shaky proposition. Investing is just another form of faith or belief, as in "I believe this investment will bring dividends in the future". And investors, of course, are always right, right up to the point when they are... not, e.g., when the bubble bursts. Investors believed in tulips, dot.coms and housing. Investors believe in governments and their t-bills too, e.g. Russia in 1998. And yet, in September 1998, the West collectively lost $100 Bln overnight. And George Soros, who built his wealth and reputation on "wisdom" i.e., "knowing" how to bet against the British Pound, reportedly lost his "wisdom" and $2 Bln too.

In any given market, there are those who believe it will rise and those who believe it will fall, otherwise there would be no trade. So, yes, there are many who believe in the US government as the "last bastion of capitalism" and its ability to control its debt and inflation. And then there are others who rather believe gold is the best protection against inflation (just check the gold prices lately). But you see, there is that damn word again "believe".

In other words, Russ is just as justified in his belief as you are, Jeremy. Many people would agree that (they believe) inflation is unavoidable. Perhaps not to the point as in my home country, but a 15% inflation is not unheard of in the US either, as recently as a few presidents ago. Other people believe soft lending is still possible.

I believe one of the two sides must be right. And that's a fact. Believe me. ;)

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 29, 2012, 12:26:38 pm
Hmmmm... so it boils down to "opinion" vs. "wisdom". Never mind that investors' "wisdom" is equally based on opinion and, even more important, on faith. Amassing thousands with the same opinion or faith does not turn it into a fact or wisdom.

There is a "wisdom of crowds" and I know you understand that.

You are playing word games.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 29, 2012, 12:30:12 pm
If you mean what happened to the economy, it remained slumped due to incompetent attempts at centralized management by FDR and his "brain trust."

Remained slumped?  That's not exactly right ...

A recovery well-underway was derailed ... first by overly tight fiscal policy spurred by the belief that deficit spending had run amok followed by a poorly conceived and ill-timed tightening of monetary policy by the Fed.

1937 employment was not reached again until the massive and unavoidable stimulus of the war.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 29, 2012, 01:02:25 pm
Remained slumped?  That's not exactly right ...

A recovery well-underway was derailed ... first by overly tight fiscal policy spurred by the belief that deficit spending had run amok followed by a poorly conceived and ill-timed tightening of monetary policy by the Fed.

1937 employment was not reached again until the massive and unavoidable stimulus of the war.


Right, Jeremy, and I'm sure everybody in that class had to regurgitate exactly that on their exam in order to pass.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 29, 2012, 02:10:51 pm
Right, Jeremy, and I'm sure everybody in that class had to regurgitate exactly that on their exam in order to pass.

Author is a republican historian and member of multiple republican administrations:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/07/deficit-great-depression-recovery-opinions-columnists-bruce-bartlett.html
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 29, 2012, 03:06:00 pm
Yes, I've read that theory before, Jeremy, and all I can say is that any correlation between the 1930s and now is loose at best. And even Republicans occasionally make mistakes. Rarely... but they do.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 29, 2012, 04:19:11 pm
any correlation between the 1930s and now is loose at best.

The 1930's in the US and the situation in Japan in the 90's are two very real and relevant examples of the kind of economic environment in which we now find ourselves. 

Fortunately for us, the current chairman of the fed recognizes that and has acted accordingly.

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 29, 2012, 04:20:42 pm
...  And even Republicans occasionally make mistakes...

You mean like when they turned Clinton's surplus into a record-setting deficit? ;)
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: sierraman on March 29, 2012, 04:41:34 pm
I thought we were talking about Peter Lik? :)
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 29, 2012, 07:17:07 pm
You mean like when they turned Clinton's surplus into a record-setting deficit? ;)

You mean the surplus that Reagan created by taking the hard route and accepting an early recession in order to undo the damage Carter had done? That surplus?
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 29, 2012, 08:03:51 pm
You mean the surplus that Reagan created by taking the hard route and accepting an early recession in order to undo the damage Carter had done? That surplus?

Ultimately, it is all Eve's fault: deficit of apples and surplus of serpents ;D
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 29, 2012, 09:07:01 pm
You mean like when they turned Clinton's surplus into a record-setting deficit? ;)

Be fair - credit for the surplus is due to both Papa Bush and Clinton.  The budget deal of 1990 cost Bush his political career, but set-up the boom.  Clinton, to his credit, continued the path established in the second half of the Bush administration in many ways.

That's what I'm talking about.

We can play political ping-pong, or we can talk about the real history and the real economics.

Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 29, 2012, 09:16:37 pm
Be fair - credit for the surplus is due to both Papa Bush and Clinton...

Whether it is Reagan, Papa Bush or Clinton to fully or partially credit for the surplus, it does not change the fact that eight years of Son Bush turned that surplus into deficit.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 30, 2012, 06:04:43 am
No doubt about that, Slobodan. With respect to the economy, Bush was a disaster. But his successor has been a catastrophe.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: jeremypayne on March 30, 2012, 08:07:29 am
No doubt about that, Slobodan. With respect to the economy, Bush was a disaster. But his successor has been a catastrophe.

Russ ... Kinda disappointed how nakedly partisan you are.

That's the stuff of talk radio and the talking heads on TV.

Rise above it. Pull back on the stick and fly above the clouds.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 30, 2012, 08:46:05 am
I'm not all that partisan, Jeremy, but I can see what's happening without the blinders that seem to be over the eyes of people directly involved in financial markets. What do you think is going to happen when Greece goes tits up and the euro comes crashing down? That point's not far off, since the Germans seem about at the end of their willingness to support Greek lives of luxury. As "the schnoz" used to say: "It's gonna be a catastrostroke."
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Rob C on March 30, 2012, 09:49:34 am
Hey, I though Americans only thought about American politics?

Europe and the Euro is a thing apart: so many people bundled together economically but without a common language, standard of living, or ethos, unless you consider the lingua franca of English and the English (Brits!), ironically, as far away from being in the Euro as they can be! So far.

The main problem I see is a matter of national characteristics. The southern people like the mañana idea, and the northern ones find it too cold to wallow in dolce far niente. At least, a couple of generations ago they did. Now, it's all some of them have ever known or want to know. Those with a work ethic (as distinct from an earlier definition of 'ethics') put their back into their job and produce what people want to buy; in Britain, we killed off the industrial base and took an easy slide into 'service' industries where you spend much time on theories and produce nothing except figures in a bank account.

This difference in attitudes and expectations becomes ever so clear when you consider the majority of expat Brits who come out to Spain with the dream of investing their all in a pub: they imagine it's going to be a piece of cake, and then realise that they ain't never going to get the prime sites at a rate that allows them to make money, and that the hours they have to work to stand still are so much greater than ever they were at home. So they go bust, leaving a bad smell and many debts behind them as they vanish off the face of the country. But, the locals soldier on and make it work, more often than not, and I think that's partly because of tradition and lower expectations and absolutely no romanticism about working in bars. And some pretty shrewd minds, well-educated or not.

Take an island like Mallorca, that I know reasonably well after 31 years: apart from tourism, there isn't anything anymore. The building boom was all about selling holiday homes to foreigners; there used to be a lot of farming (the island is far from being a desert) until the European Union paid farmers to slaughter their animals and stop growing stuff; now, instead of being pretty self-sufficient, the place relies on imports for most of everything except spuds, and even they have gone downhill in quality. The Common Agricultural Policy insists on huge subsidies for farmers, most of them French, and even a first dr¡ve through that country will reveal the wealth of working farms they have. Meanwhile, in Britain, they pay/paid farmers to 'set aside' land and do nothing with it but let Nature reclaim it... as if all that came for free! An echo of the European Ideal, except that it came first in Britain. There used to be a very good shoe industry in Mallorca; that's been decimated by Chinese imports...

Perhaps that funny definition of ethics wasn't so funny after all. International cynicism and short-termism is now the name of the game.

Rob C
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: RSL on March 30, 2012, 02:07:20 pm
Hey, I though Americans only thought about American politics?

It's all world politics now, Rob. Here in the U.S., Bernanke's fired out. There are no more rounds in his gun. He threw away most of his ammunition shooting at shadows, and now it's too late. So, when the euro crashes American outfits invested in European sovereign debt are going to be ass-deep in a financial bloodbath. They'll descend on the U.S. government for relief, and in order to survive politically, the government will have to "do something." All they'll be able to do at this point is further debase the currency. Three years ago our politicians brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in hope and change and dedicated to the proposition that some men can live on a free lunch provided by wealthy taxpayers. Now we are engaged in a great political war testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. Wanna bet on the outcome? I think we'll survive, but there's a really tough period ahead. Wish we could run Maggie Thatcher this November -- on either party.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: bill t. on April 06, 2012, 03:53:14 pm
Are we talking about the same Bernake who saved us from a decade-long, highly destabilising world depression?  If he had been there in '29 WWII might not have happened.  Revisionist history is almost as much fun as scape goating, and just as credible.

OK, here's how to make some damned money in photography...


1. Browse Pixdaus until you find a great cliche shot taken by some enthusiast.  Thank the Good Lord for photo enthusiasts, they are tireless location scouts and they work for free and if you send them a complimentary email they will tell you exactly when and where they took the shot.  Love 'ya, mate!

http://static2.pixdaus.com/files/items/pics/3/73/94373_523714b775337031cd8100e362bec601_large.jpg (http://static2.pixdaus.com/files/items/pics/3/73/94373_523714b775337031cd8100e362bec601_large.jpg)

2. Make it your own, Don't even bother to match the excellent technical quality of your enthusiast.  Sell it for $112,500 in the original edition.  Or if it's that last one in your modest edition of 950, charge $1,000,000 and get it. 

But there are bargains to he had (http://www.artbrokerage.com/artist/Peter-Lik/Tree-of-Life-35468).  PS this is why I eschew anything except sofa size! 

Don't we just hate it when other people get rich on things we do for peanuts?
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Rob C on April 07, 2012, 03:58:09 am
Had a look at the bedroom shot of the pic in its 'hung' location: I think I now understand who might buy this garish stuff.

Why do I find myself thinking of Nevada, wild horses and a notorious, eponymous ranch that might, on a heavy day, be mistaken for a Ford?

Rob C
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Anders_HK on April 07, 2012, 07:34:22 am
I suppose you gents are not really into photography, heh? But heavily into politics??? Do you think you found the right thread???

Please do not answer, but perhaps let this thread get back to OP subject.
Title: Re: Peter Lik new release "Bella Luna", is this ok to you?
Post by: Rob C on April 08, 2012, 05:20:40 am
Anders, it's the unusual capacity of this forum to create (and allow) situations where one thing can lead on to another that's even more interesting than the very narrow boundaries of photography. Tunnel visioned sites and people abound on the Internet; enjoy being part of somewhere different.

Rob C