Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Anthony R on January 25, 2012, 12:41:41 pm
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I've been out of the loop as far as new medium format backs and camera systems. The P45+ as far as megapixels is sufficient for my needs. I am curious about Phase One's current line up, of which I know nothing about.
The Hasselblad systems are attractive, however I am adverse to Phocus, especially when it comes to delivering raw files to clients as they have and are familiar with C1, etc, but not Phocus. I'm also unsure of my tethering options.
If you were to buy today, which would you choose? I shoot beauty and hair primarily, quickly.
Thanks in advance.
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No doubt, the H4D40, since there is a great promotion going on.
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No doubt, the H4D40, since there is a great promotion going on.
How about tethering and the proprietary raw processing?
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Also, I have a gig in a week and a half and I'd like to rent a potential contender for purchase. I normally tether to C1.
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Money no object? I'd get a Hassie 4Dx. You get the Hassie camera and lenses plus the open platform. Best of all worlds.
I recently tested the Hassie HD40. I liked it. The Phocus software seemed easy to use and did what I needed. The images can also be processed directly through Lightroom - which is my processing software of choice. Color was comparable to what I've been getting out of my Leaf back. The True Focus system worked great. Images from the HD40 were noticeably sharper than those from my H1. High ISO - to 800 - was usable.
John
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Naturally (note my signature) I would recommend either an Aptus-II 8 (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/products_aptus28.asp) or an Aptus-II 7 (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/products_aptus27.asp) on a 645DF (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/products_aptus2645df.asp). Both tether into Capture One and shoot very fast (the 8 is probably the fastest back currently) and produce excellent skin tones
Check out Shay Kedem's work (http://shaykedem.com/) He uses a 645DF/ Aptus-II 8 combo. There's also a good range of f2.8 lenses (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/products_lenses.asp) with a leaf shutter in them plus the incredible 150mm/ f2.8
Good luck and enjoy!
Yair
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If you photograph people the Hasselblad has a big advantage with True Focus and simply the best skin tones I've ever seen.
The H4D 40 would be my first choice.
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While there are some that like Phocus, I also prefer C1.
The 645DF body is the weak link though - what a terrible viewfinder, poor sync speed, lots of vibration, and the viewfinder stays dark for an eternity between frames which makes it difficult for fashion or beauty work - all IMHO. Once you've used another camera you won't be happy with the DF. People keep saying that Phase is coming out with a new camera but they've updated the DF already several times and it still has lots of limitations. Unless they toss that platform and start new, its going to still be behind other camera platforms.
Personally, I'd go with an AFi with Leaf back or the Hasselblad 4-xx and learn to use Phocus. It's not bad, just different.
The AFi and the H are the most advanced cameras out there. You can buy the AFi body's from DHW or other places new and get the leaf back. If you had to get a mamiya for a phase or Leaf back to get C1 software, then pick up an RZ with phase or leaf back.
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Thanks for all the opinions and info thus far. Does no one want to jump in and speak about a Phase One camera/back situation? I used to shoot a P30+ on Contax.
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Thanks for all the opinions and info thus far. Does no one want to jump in and speak about a Phase One camera/back situation? I used to shoot a P30+ on Contax.
I only have deep experience with two brands, Leaf and Phase. Love the look of the Leaf file (processed in photoshop) disliked the reliability of the back as it went in 4 times for major issues and/or replacement.
Leaf stood behind it, but it was a problematic day in day out tool for me, so I went with Phase.
My two phase backs have never had an issue and are even more viable today than they were when I bought them, as the software keeps improving, capture pilot for remote is great and the backs are solid, especially in tethering.
Since I use Contax and have a lot of backups, cameras aren't really my problem today.
Knowing this if I decided to buy another medium format camera I'd either go Hasselblad or Pentax.
Hasselblad's 40 mpx camera because it goes to 800 clean and phocus produces beautiful skin tones and because the price of the h4d 40 is pretty good. (Not great but good). The main reason I would go to Hasselblad is the lenses and bodies are in rental world wide and they make an autofocus and fast 100mm which is a real go to lens. Also Hasselblad has a mobile App and I hear that Phocus is finally stable.
The Phase/Mamiya DF I'm not in love with and doubt if I ever will be. The real issue of that body is the prism doesn't remove. That is a feature I use all the time on the Contax and when you need it, you really, really need it.
Now I'd amend all the above if the Pentax would tether and had a mobile app, because I believe the $10,000 price point is where these cameras should really be, (even though the Pentax also has a fixed prism).
BTW: I love the mobile apps to the I-pad. It makes the lcd on the camera irrelevant and finally stopped everyone from standing around the computer station.
IMO
BC
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Thanks for all the opinions and info thus far. Does no one want to jump in and speak about a Phase One camera/back situation? I used to shoot a P30+ on Contax.
Why did you give up the p30+ on Contax and what would you want different from that? You won't be getting that much better in terms of higher Usable ISO with a new back and possibly not a big difference in DR either. As others have pointed out, the Contax might still be a better body than the current phase offering.
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Thanks for all the opinions and info thus far. Does no one want to jump in and speak about a Phase One camera/back situation? I used to shoot a P30+ on Contax.
I own the PhaseOne IQ180, and simply everything about it works perfectly. It works 100% smoothly with the PhasOne 645DF as well as very well with technical cameras. The IQ180 works great as a whole, touchscreen is not an issue and works just as well as it is advertised too. Shooting tethered is a breeze, simply throw the cable into the back, and into the firewire port of your computer, fire up C1 and your good to go. I could not recommend it any more thoroughly. You can read my full review of the camera on my website:
http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2012/01/14/phaseone-iq180-a-love-story/
Although, something else to consider is the Leica S2, I am considering purchasing this camera as well because it is considerably more compact then the PhaseOne 645DF and might be nicer to use at some times. However it offers about 1/2 the megapixel count that the PhaseOne IQ180 does, if you are looking in the 40mp range of cameras, I would certainly consider the Leica S2, since I have been more impressed with its performance and image quality then I have with the Hasselblad / PhaseOne / Leaf / (Pentax) systems in this range. also reviewed in depth on my website
That said the Hasselbald backs in the H4D-50-60 range are very good although I am less inclined to like the ergonomics to the Hasselblad H cameras, I owned a H3D-39ms for a couple of years, and it was a very good camera, and yielded me some very nice images (the half of the equation that was in its control; equipment) however I was never fully satisfied with the ergonomics and overall feel of the camera body. Oddly enough though, the lenses were absolutely some of the best built I have ever seen (in terms of exterior build quality) and there internal parts did not leave me wanting either. Their autofocus was on par with all medium format cameras, and their optics were stunning, especially for me the 50mm 3.5, 100mm 2.2 (this lens almost made me stay Hasselblad) and the 300mm f/4.5. you can also read about these cameras and lenses on my website in the Hasselblad section.
If you have the opportunities to use all of them that would be the best, but if you are going off of things you can easily rent, then Hasselblad and PhaseOne are the most common in rental houses, however based on your location its also possible to find other cameras like the Leica S2 (as well as the Pentax and leaf's).
thats my two cents.
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I tested both 645DF with Leaf back and Hasselblad H4D-40.
The H4D-40 is the winner system. This includes much better camera, one battery (Mamiya/Leaf uses 2 batteries), less weight, better construction of lenses (at least to my taste), better true focus, and so on.
Price difference is too small to consider 645DF.
I sold all my Contax 645 kit with Leaf back and went to H4D-40.
C1 should not drive your choice of camera system.
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did you switch because of the 645DF or because of the leaf back? Also, I prefer two separate batteries because this means if the body sucks out all its power, the back doesn't turn off.....
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Consider the Leica S2 if you want the ergonomics of a DSLR with impeccable build and remarkable lenses. The price is a factor, but the quality of the images is remarkable. They have a depth, a three dimensionality and micro-contrast that is exceptional. It can be tethered to Lightroom. Leica hasn't released as many lenses as the other brands, but the ones they have are, well, Leicas. I migrated from
the Nikon world, and the S2 just felt perfect in my hand-- there was no difficulty or awkwardness in the handling of the body. I found
the Phase too bulky, too awkward (granted I do not shoot in a studio). The H4D40 was better, but the viewfinder was not as good
as the S2. In fact the viewfinder in the S2 is the best of the MF cameras I tried. This is important, because I find myself manually
focusing far more often than when using a 35mm DSLR. The difference is that manual focus is easy, fast, and accurate with the S2
(at least you don't have to release a clutch like with the Phase!)
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I'm surprised with all the people who think the DF body is good enough and wonder what kind of shooting they do. I found it near impossible to be happy with this camera for shooting people. The viewfinder is limiting both because its tiny and dim and also because of the long black out between frames.
The one feature of the leaf that is wonderful is the revolving sensor - this is great for switching between portrait and landscape modes on the fly. I can't believe how much I use that.
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I think I would choose either a P1 or a Hassy! If I was to buy new that is....
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I think I would choose either a P1 or a Hassy! If I was to buy new that is....
If you can get it down to two cameras, then I would have to say it pays to rent them both if you have an assignment or are going on a trip (rent 1 not both) and use it for a week or however long you are away, getting to know the camera more intimately will help you make your decisions.
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I switched because Contax AF is too slow, not always precise (as my Sinar M), and about useless under low light.
I replace battery with a fresh one of exactly same type. This is the H4D advantage. 2 batteries is all I used till now for longer photo sessions.
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Saying what I would choose is of no value to someone shooting beauty and hair.
If I was looking to shoot beauty and hair using MFD then certainly, no question at all, I'd be using an H4D-40.
+ 1, as Keith, with zero hesitation.
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If you can get it down to two cameras, then I would have to say it pays to rent them both if you have an assignment or are going on a trip (rent 1 not both) and use it for a week or however long you are away, getting to know the camera more intimately will help you make your decisions.
I don't think you got the meaning...
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I Would go Alpa with phase one back P30+ or Leica S2.
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Like the OP I am interested in moving up to MFD for beauty and portrait work.
While I appreciate the recommendations for P31+ and H4D-40, I was wondering if there are any benefits to a larger un-cropped sensor (P65 or Aptus II 10), not for the sake of more MPs, but for that elusive MF look which may be differentiated from FF DSLR even more with a larger vs a smaller sensor.
I am asking based of my experiences in shooting Hasselblad V and Mamiya RZ67 years ago with film. Perhaps the comparison doesn't apply to various MFD formats, but I always preferred the look of the
RZ for portraits which I realize may be due more to the way RZ lenses draw than the larger negative.
Any insights and experiences would be much appreciated.
Richard
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Like the OP I am interested in moving up to MFD for beauty and portrait work.
While I appreciate the recommendations for P31+ and H4D-40, I was wondering if there are any benefits to a larger un-cropped sensor (P65 or Aptus II 10), not for the sake of more MPs, but for that elusive MF look which may be differentiated from FF DSLR even more with a larger vs a smaller sensor.
All things being equal, I'd rather not have a cropped sensor. However, I don't think the difference between a HD40 crop and the P65 is all that great and hardly noticeable at best. You're pretty much splitting hairs between the two. Now, if money were no object, I'd get the HD4x with the Aptus II 10 DB. But it is and the extra $25k or so that it would cost for a small amount of extra image area doesn't make sense for me. (I shoot fashion/portraiture and the extra megapixels are completely unnecessary anyhow.)
John
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I dont shoot whatyou shoot but use my camera only as a hobby photographer. Right now it is many images my kids and some landscape.
I had a Hy6 with Sinar back before - I liked it a lot but now have had the S2 for nearly one year.
The biggest advantage of the S2 for me is, that while it is still a bug camera I find myself using it much more also for applications where I would have used a Nikon in earlier times. It draws attention but not as much as the "big" MF cameras, it handles very fast, the AF is very good, the body is well damped so I can do a lot of handhold shooting, the lenses are great even wide open (which I use a lot), and it is all weatherproof (I tested this recently in heavy snowing conditions).
I sometimes miss the Hy6 with the WLF, but the S2 scores for me a lot because I now bring a MF to places where I would not have used a MF camera in earlier times.
Then the AF and exp metering are also working quite well and reliable, and the files do really not need much procesing for my taste.
So I would buy this camera again.
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Money no object? I'd get a Hassie 4Dx. You get the Hassie camera and lenses plus the open platform. Best of all worlds.
a p40 on a hassie 4Dx would be a nice system, but to buy a 4Dx you must first buy a H1 or H2 to trade in on it. They can be had cheap, so maybe not a big deal, but you can't just buy a 4Dx
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I'd suggest to test all the systems you can possibly put your hands on and evaluate which one suits your needs better. Image quality aside, everything else is extremely subjective and you'll find a million differing opinions on handling, software, etc... When making such a big investment, you can only rely on first-hand experience. Personally, after having rented and tested the two main contenders, PhaseOne and Hasselblad, I ended up investing in a H4D-40 system - for my needs it was the much better option. I shoot fashion, beauty and advertising and for that I find True Phocus invaluable. It's the only system that lets you shoot wide open and position the subject's eyes in the corner of the image and having them tack sharp in focus, nothing beats that. The IQ is amazing and the camera is actually usable in the 400-800 ASA range, which is a big bonus when shooting moving objects in available light. The grain at 400-800 is really pleasant and film-like, so sometimes I shoot at 400 ASA even in the studio, I love that feel of the file. Having only one battery to deal with is very convenient, too. The lenses are to die for - I have the 28, 80, 210 and 35-90 and I really couldn't wish for anything more quality-wise. Besides, there's a killer offer on the H4d-40 + 80mm kit now, you can grab a second lens for 50% off - get the 35-90 for half price and you'll be a very happy man, this has got to be the most amazing lens I've ever come across. As for Phocus - the latest releases are stable (and I'm a PC user!), no issues there. Raw processing is simple and the IQ is, ehm, wow. Phocus Mobile works as advertised, really comfy when you need that kind of thing. I think all the hype about C1 is a bit artificial - I don't really find any relevant differences between the two. I only have one problem with the system - being a PC user. Shooting tethered to a PC laptop is problematic, because of the small FireWire sockets that all PC laptops have - you have to use a FW800-to-small FW400 adapter which is really flimsy and the cable jiggles a lot, it's hard to keep in place even with gaffer tape, so you really have to pay attention not to move it at all once you've connected the camera to Phocus. Tried a few FW800-to-expresscard adapters, didn't work at all. This applies only to the laptops, the PC towers have big FW sockets so no issue there. That's the only thing I'd like to see changed in the Hassy - the next generation to be using USB3 and not the loathed FW. Fortunately, I hate shooting tethered and do it only when the clients insist, so I'm not really concerned with the issue :) What else... Yep, you've also got the HTS option which is really nice for wicked portraits and fashion stuff. If money was no object, I'd get the H4D-60, but I couldn't really justify the huge price difference with the needs of my current clients, and the 40 is a bit faster, so I decided to get the entry level, start building the system up, and get a high-end body in the future, maybe after a generation or two of cameras.
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I'd suggest to test all the systems you can possibly put your hands on and evaluate which one suits your needs better. Image quality aside, everything else is extremely subjective and you'll find a million differing opinions on handling, software, etc... When making such a big investment, you can only rely on first-hand experience. Personally, after having rented and tested the two main contenders, PhaseOne and Hasselblad, I ended up investing in a H4D-40 system - for my needs it was the much better option. I shoot fashion, beauty and advertising and for that I find True Phocus invaluable. It's the only system that lets you shoot wide open and position the subject's eyes in the corner of the image and having them tack sharp in focus, nothing beats that. The IQ is amazing and the camera is actually usable in the 400-800 ASA range, which is a big bonus when shooting moving objects in available light. The grain at 400-800 is really pleasant and film-like, so sometimes I shoot at 400 ASA even in the studio, I love that feel of the file. Having only one battery to deal with is very convenient, too. The lenses are to die for - I have the 28, 80, 210 and 35-90 and I really couldn't wish for anything more quality-wise. Besides, there's a killer offer on the H4d-40 + 80mm kit now, you can grab a second lens for 50% off - get the 35-90 for half price and you'll be a very happy man, this has got to be the most amazing lens I've ever come across. As for Phocus - the latest releases are stable (and I'm a PC user!), no issues there. Raw processing is simple and the IQ is, ehm, wow. Phocus Mobile works as advertised, really comfy when you need that kind of thing. I think all the hype about C1 is a bit artificial - I don't really find any relevant differences between the two. I only have one problem with the system - being a PC user. Shooting tethered to a PC laptop is problematic, because of the small FireWire sockets that all PC laptops have - you have to use a FW800-to-small FW400 adapter which is really flimsy and the cable jiggles a lot, it's hard to keep in place even with gaffer tape, so you really have to pay attention not to move it at all once you've connected the camera to Phocus. Tried a few FW800-to-expresscard adapters, didn't work at all. This applies only to the laptops, the PC towers have big FW sockets so no issue there. That's the only thing I'd like to see changed in the Hassy - the next generation to be using USB3 and not the loathed FW. Fortunately, I hate shooting tethered and do it only when the clients insist, so I'm not really concerned with the issue :) What else... Yep, you've also got the HTS option which is really nice for wicked portraits and fashion stuff. If money was no object, I'd get the H4D-60, but I couldn't really justify the huge price difference with the needs of my current clients, and the 40 is a bit faster, so I decided to get the entry level, start building the system up, and get a high-end body in the future, maybe after a generation or two of cameras.
I'm on PC too (we should be rare here), I hate tether too, Firewire sucks too...and if I'd buy a MF today it would be indeed within the Hassy system.
But as far as I'm concern, while MF is not going multimedia, I'm done with them, and I suspect that in 2 or 3 generations Red camera would have released a fully high def still+raw motion camera (at good cost).
Very good works Nikola, great imagery. High level.
Best regards.
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Another vote for the Hasselblad H4D-40. I would pick up the 100mm, 50mm-II and 28mm lenses.
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... I was wondering if there are any benefits to a larger un-cropped sensor (P65 or Aptus II 10), not for the sake of more MPs, but for that elusive MF look which may be differentiated from FF DSLR even more with a larger vs a smaller sensor...
Richard,
I think there is something to the extra pixels and few extra mm in size with the 80mp sensors. At least I have noticed it when I went to the AFi-ii 12 from p20, ixpress 528 and CF-39MS. More tonality, more film like, if that makes sense. But not sure if everyone will notice it, or if it comes through in prints. Certainly on the screen it does.
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No question in my mind for your application. The H4D-40 wins hands down as a complete photographic system. Truefocus is very useful and the camera ergonomics and operations are way better than the Phase/Mamiya. Lenses I would choose would be the 50Mk2, and 100 to start with then the 35 or 28 and finally the 150 - all nice sharp glass.
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Money no object? I'd get a Hassie 4Dx. You get the Hassie camera and lenses plus the open platform. Best of all worlds.
I recently tested the Hassie HD40. I liked it. The Phocus software seemed easy to use and did what I needed. The images can also be processed directly through Lightroom - which is my processing software of choice. Color was comparable to what I've been getting out of my Leaf back. The True Focus system worked great. Images from the HD40 were noticeably sharper than those from my H1. High ISO - to 800 - was usable.
John
Money no object? I would go for a Porsche and keep my Contax with 22mpx Imacon, ....the Porsche would surely insure better MODELS for posing, thus more success! Q.E.D. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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If you were purchasing a new MFD camera today, which would you choose?
For you: I'd be person number 234 recommending the H4D40. It has the best sensor in digital medium format, currently (Kodak KAF-40000) - the same sensor which has made the Pentax 645D so successful. And I think that AF is overrated in medium format (and I happily do without it on most of my lenses), but TrueFocus is not - it really does give the H4 series the edge for people photography.
For me: my "needs" are (1) Mounts/adapts M645 lenses like my 24/4 fisheye and 200/2.8 APO, (2) long exposures, (3) preferably higher real ISO (thanks to microlenses), (4) focal plane shutter.
Sadly, the P645D can't do the 1st of these, although it's ideal on all the others.
The H-blads can't do the 1st or 4th.
Neither can the Hy6/AFi, and indeed if one is limited to Leaf and Sinar backs, it's no good on the 2nd and 3rd either!
If money was no object, the Leica S2 can do all 4.
Since money most definitely is an object, I'm staying put with my Mamiya 645AFD. Upgrading my back to a P30+ would improve the situation a lot with regard to my 2nd and 3rd needs, and despite being one Kodak sensor generation behind, it would come very close to the S2 for signal to noise and resolution. (The big leap forward was from the 9 micron to 6.8 micron sensors; less of an improvement going from the 6.8 micron to 6 micron ones). Besides, and this isn't entirely rhetorical, is it worth getting an S2 but not using any S2 lenses?
I really wish (probably futilely) that Phase One would come to their senses, and build a back around the Kodak KAF-40000; it would be the generational successor to the P30+, in the same way as that was the generational successor to the P21+.
Ray
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+1
I use the leaf afi body with a leaf afi aptus II 7 back
excellent combo and I love the rotating sensor.
money no object Leica S2
While there are some that like Phocus, I also prefer C1.
The 645DF body is the weak link though - what a terrible viewfinder, poor sync speed, lots of vibration, and the viewfinder stays dark for an eternity between frames which makes it difficult for fashion or beauty work - all IMHO. Once you've used another camera you won't be happy with the DF. People keep saying that Phase is coming out with a new camera but they've updated the DF already several times and it still has lots of limitations. Unless they toss that platform and start new, its going to still be behind other camera platforms.
Personally, I'd go with an AFi with Leaf back or the Hasselblad 4-xx and learn to use Phocus. It's not bad, just different.
The AFi and the H are the most advanced cameras out there. You can buy the AFi body's from DHW or other places new and get the leaf back. If you had to get a mamiya for a phase or Leaf back to get C1 software, then pick up an RZ with phase or leaf back.
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Richard,
I think there is something to the extra pixels and few extra mm in size with the 80mp sensors. At least I have noticed it when I went to the AFi-ii 12 from p20, ixpress 528 and CF-39MS. More tonality, more film like, if that makes sense. But not sure if everyone will notice it, or if it comes through in prints. Certainly on the screen it does.
Juanito and Eric,
Thank you for your replies and comments. I had some limited use of 645DF with P30+ and while the images were eye popping on the screen compared to my 5DII, the Epson 3880 became the great equalizer. Yes, the P30+ excelled at bigger print sizes, but at 17" x 22" (the largest that I need to print) the difference did not consistently come trough in print; in a few instances it seemed that 5DII did better. If the difference had been as distinct and as consistent as a 16" x 20" print from 4x5 sheet film vs MF film, then P30+ would have ended up in my gear bag.
Again, appreciate the discussion. Back to the drawing board...
Richard
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snip.....
I really wish (probably futilely) that Phase One would come to their senses, and build a back around the Kodak KAF-40000; it would be the generational successor to the P30+, in the same way as that was the generational successor to the P21+.
Ray
Regardless of money, I agree I'd like to see more backs with the Kodak 40mpx sensor. Everyone that uses a Pentax or Hasselblad raves about it.
Still, I love my p21+ and use it more than my p30+ because it's so responsive. It shoots virtually as fast as my Contax and doesn't have that digital lag feel.
The only issue with it is it can moire easier (though I don't see much moire) and it's probably 1/2 or 1/3 a stop less useable iso than the p30+.
I do know if you can find one, today the p21+ is the deal of the century and when I shoot it side by side my p30+ I can never really see any noticeable difference in detail.
IMO
BC
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I switched because Contax AF is too slow, not always precise (as my Sinar M), and about useless under low light.
I replace battery with a fresh one of exactly same type. This is the H4D advantage. 2 batteries is all I used till now for longer photo sessions.
Obviously you wouldn't shoot at all if AF didn't exist! Your saying not mine... sorry for spotting your photographic abilities... 8) Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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I´d choose a Hy6
no wait! I actually have this exact camera! ;D
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My dream camera is something in the style of Hy6 or Hasselblad V-series with a PhaseOne back. Highly modular, different finders, rotating sensor, and much faster AF. I'm still hoping Phase's next camera will be something along these lines.
So, to answer the question.. if money was no issue and I had to buy a camera today I'd probably look at the Hy6, even though I'm not a fan of leaf backs. If money WAS an issue I'd make the same choice I did and go with Mamiya/Phase.
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Money no object? I would go for a Porsche and keep my Contax with 22mpx Imacon, ....the Porsche would surely insure better MODELS for posing, thus more success!
If you require a Porsche to get models perhaps an examination of other areas of
your 'equipment' should be a priority ;)
Mark
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If you require a Porsche to get models perhaps an examination of other areas of
your 'equipment' should be a priority ;)
Mark
You din't get this right Mark, I don't require no car to get models.., actually I don't give an F for this type of "photography" (I don't even consider it as photography), my comment has to do with how important is a "photographer's" appearance with his image of it! To be more specific, try to read my earlier posts which have a lot to do with "P1 or Hass?", ...well "how do I look better", or "star"? (hand expressions are allowed). What's the point of that conversation? Is it spending the money of an expensive car to buy ...better photography? Jesus! Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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I would rather say "Jesus" to your comment about shooting models :"I don't even consider it as photography".
That must be one of the most stupid and arrogant comments ever.
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Just to throw a wrench in the discussion, the new Nikon D800 is about to be announced any day now. With 36 megapixels and version with no anti-aliasing filter, this camera is definitely a MF competitor. The new Nikon glass is awesome. Unless you need the high sync speed - which can be partially overcome by using the Pocket Wizard Flex system - the distinct need for MF is getting slimmer. I still like the look of MF but unless you really are using it, there's other options out there.
John
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You din't get this right Mark, I don't require no car to get models.., actually I don't give an F for this type of "photography" (I don't even consider it as photography)
I read this comment and chuckled, then I went to your so called portfolio and laughed out loud for a good minute or so. Thanks for the comedy Theo ::)
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+1 :)
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Fred: thanks, mate! Still a very, very long way to go, though :)
Actually, the multimedia thing doesn't really concern me... I'm sticking to stills, not really interested in motion as of now, at least not in the way that I see the majority of fashion photographers is - completely ignoring any depth, storytelling, etc, usually ending up with a variation of the horrid cliché of models touching their faces in slow motion with French music in the background. 99% of what I see shot in the last couple of years with DSLRs in the fashion field is simply moving pictures with no cinematographic value. Because good commercial video requires much more resources, budget, preproduction, etc compared to good stills, most clients will not be interested in spending MUCH more for the addition of video (and so it will be not worth doing from my point of view as a content provider), and (what most photographers fail to comprehend) it's a completely different language with completely different algorithms, where the most important thing is the ability to tell stories, and not learning to rig a 5dm2. So the whole "convergence" thing - nah, it ain't really happenin' for me. I'm a photographer, not interested in being somebody's DP. Some day I'll start experimenting with direction, but the camera is not the weak link in that equation - I am. And directors don't need any equipment besides a viewfinder and a laptop - how cool is that :D
"You din't get this right Mark, I don't require no car to get models.., actually I don't give an F for this type of "photography" (I don't even consider it as photography)" - yeah, I always thought of myself as of some kind of, ehm, carpenter or plumber, say. WTF?
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Fred: thanks, mate! Still a very, very long way to go, though :)
Actually, the multimedia thing doesn't really concern me... I'm sticking to stills, not really interested in motion as of now, at least not in the way that I see the majority of fashion photographers is - completely ignoring any depth, storytelling, etc, usually ending up with a variation of the horrid cliché of models touching their faces in slow motion with French music in the background. 99% of what I see shot in the last couple of years with DSLRs in the fashion field is simply moving pictures with no cinematographic value. Because good commercial video requires much more resources, budget, preproduction, etc compared to good stills, most clients will not be interested in spending MUCH more for the addition of video (and so it will be not worth doing from my point of view as a content provider), and (what most photographers fail to comprehend) it's a completely different language with completely different algorithms, where the most important thing is the ability to tell stories, and not learning to rig a 5dm2. So the whole "convergence" thing - nah, it ain't really happenin' for me. I'm a photographer, not interested in being somebody's DP. Some day I'll start experimenting with direction, but the camera is not the weak link in that equation - I am. And directors don't need any equipment besides a viewfinder and a laptop - how cool is that :D
Yeah, that's what is generally happening.
In Madrid we are lucky to have Recuenco http://www.eugeniorecuenco.com/
Both talented photographer and advert cineast. But it's more the exception than the rule.
He's been into "convergence" way before all the convergence stuff appeared, and he's very experienced now.
http://vimeo.com/31954546
http://vimeo.com/31963953
http://vimeo.com/search/videos/search:recuenco/st/6e96c484
Enjoy, this is very high motion level
All that is very new, everybody's learning and among all the people who jumped into it, many photographers will give-up or will keep going with the easy clichés but some will learn to do well and will do great stuff, I'm sure.
Best regards.
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My daily work is done with a technical camera. No Hasselblad, Mamiya, PhaseOne or Hy6 allow me to do what I do every day easily with my technical view camera. So, I can choose between Linhof, Sinar or Arca.
The multishoot back gives a quality of reproduction that 1 shot back can not afford to offer. Two possibilities: Sinarback or Hasselblad.
The best integrated system is a Sinar P3 camera with a Sinarback 86H. They are medium format, aren't they?
For me, this is the best way.
I could love the Fuji GX680, which has too short life...
If I would be interested by professional photographs of landscapes, people or something else, the solution should be very different.
PdF
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Oh, yeah, I worship Recuenco and his work, (especially the Loewe commercial with a massive wink to Kar-Wai, this is simply breathtaking), but he is a completely different story, as you say :) Bruno Aveillan, who is my favorite commercial director (have you seen his work for Louis Vuitton, Shangri-La and all the perfume brands? Most beautiful thing ever created), is also an accomplished fine art photographer , but again, completely different story. These two guys' work follows a completely different pattern, nothing to do with the dslr-wannabe-crowd.
Of course, it's a great thing that some great directors will emerge thanks to this newly found mass access to cheap video tools, but there is one major problem to that: as with digital photography, now with cheap digital video the world is flooded by an immense wave of unconscious mediocrity, and everybody who can make you somebody is so bombarded with it that they actually stop giving a ****, and this makes the whole making-it-big process way more difficult even for the few ones with real talent. Yes, everybody has an open "speakers' corner" with the internet, but it's of barely any real use - actually, more and more I believe that the less online presence you have, the better. Steven Meisel doesn't have a website. Nor Camilla Akrans. Etc. So I believe that not being part of the ME-ME-ME-desperate-for-attention-online-facebook-linkedin-crowd is what could make somebody stand out in this all-online, all-mediocre age, as long as you mingle with the right people *in real life*. Sorry, went way offtopic :) Just my 2 eurocents :)
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I completly agree with your lines.
Aveillan Vuitton is simply absolutly beautifull. All those 2 guys touch is extremely good whatever they do. (it's curious by the way because recuenco and Aveillan are "made of the same wood" if I might say). Yeah, that's not 2 cents productions and talent. Everything is top, the crew, the post etc...
You're also right, they are "more" accomplished cineasts at first.
I also totally agree with you about the internet presence, and specially the social networks.
Cheers.
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As they say - great minds think alike :D
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I read this comment and chuckled, then I went to your so called portfolio and laughed out loud for a good minute or so. Thanks for the comedy Theo ::)
You should see my reaction, when I had a look in yours..... I stood in "awe...", in fact I think I've never seen better lighting in my whole life! Tremendous... how you do it man? The nearest I've come to this is when I used the self timer and was just focusing the camera letting it fire by it self. But I was never able to achieve ...that! Thank you for sharing. Regards, Theodoros.
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You should see my reaction, when I had a look in yours..... I stood in "awe...", in fact I think I've never seen better lighting in my whole life! Tremendous... how you do it man? The nearest I've come to this is when I used the self timer and was just focusing the camera letting it fire by it self. But I was never able to achieve ...that! Thank you for sharing. Regards, Theodoros.
Hahaha.. you are a silly little man aren't you.
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Hahaha.. you are a silly little man aren't you.
You seem not to like people that admire your work... Never mind, I would take anything from such a great artist as yourself..., I feel honored that you bother to address to me. Thank you, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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You seem not to like people that admire your work... Never mind, I would take anything from such a great artist as yourself..., I feel honored that you bother to address to me. Thank you, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
lol, playing the martyr card now? Look buddy, if you can't take what you dish out you might want to stop insulting people left & right on this forum. This isn't exactly the first time you've been behaving like an ass around here.
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lol, playing the martyr card now? Look buddy, if you can't take what you dish out you might want to stop insulting people left & right on this forum. This isn't exactly the first time you've been behaving like an ass around here.
Insulting? :o I only said that I don't consider this kind of shooting as photography, It's my opinion.., who ever insulted you? I don't like meat either... do you feel that insults butchers by saying so? I don't like "blockbuster" hollywood films either, I don't think it has anything to do with cinematography, I prefer some Felini or Tarkovsky or Kurosawa... do you feel that Michael Bay is insulted by this? Who is the one here that is insulting the other?
Back to the OP..., IMO this kind of "photography is better done with a Sony a850 or an a900 (FF.. just to be able to keep DOF shallow if chosen otherwise an APS-c would do) and the ...Porsche I mentioned before ...for the same amount of money as the cameras discussed here, I do think that the model plays a more important part for the success of the picture than the photographer and you'll find plenty among publishers that believe the same. You may also find that the models would be easier to work with a "photographer" that drives a ...Porsche than with one with a MFD camera, in fact the may not care for the camera (nor do the publishers). It's only my opinion and I do take your "language" against my opinion as a privilege (your opinion on my photography even more so..). It just proves me and my view on photography ....right! :-* Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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I'm on my 4th Phase One back...currently have the P65+ and use it on a Hasselblad H2 camera and several prime lenses. I have stayed with Hasselblad camera simply because I like all their leaf shutter lenses...no vibration on shutter release. I'm going to stay with the Phase One P65+ as any more megapixels would be a hinderance to me....more hard drive space, needs more processing power and I don't make super large prints that need more megapixels. I have always enjoyed the quality I've gotten from Phase One so that would be my recommendation..any one of their backs. Eleanor
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I bought my Hy6 just a few months ago, and the answer is still Hy6 until something better comes along.
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I just recently sold all my Leica gear that I had been using as a companion to my Cambo WRS/P65+ and went with a Phase DF body and 3-lenses. Now I shoot completely MF with a 3-lens kit on the Cambo and 3-on the DF and all I have to do is switch the P65+ to whatever mode I wish to use.
Works for me! ;D
Don
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Maybe this will help you:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=60215.20
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Thanks again everyone. Now I'm really torn on the H4D..
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my contax with a p65+ on it is the best system I've used. Ive had two attempts at liking an H1/2 phase kit, and I just don't like it. The lenses render unusually, and it seems very plastic and unbalanced (with a zoom). even though i have had many years with the H1 i would still struggle with the menus.
the contax is completely intuitive, everything is where its suppose to be. real dials, dedicated single purpose buttons and leavers. its amazing how design has gone backwards with the new cameras the last few years.
the contax with a full frame back shooting a frame a sec (or almost twice that with sensor plus), fast lenses and a battery grip the contax is hard to fault for me.
if only i could justify a IQ 160 i would be in heaven. it costs the price of a decent used car to upgrade to the nice IQ nice screen, but really , when i use the contax its in a full production setup and everything is tethered and the theres an iPad setup right beside me.
paul
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my contax with a p65+ on it is the best system I've used. Ive had two attempts at liking an H1/2 phase kit, and I just don't like it. The lenses render unusually, and it seems very plastic and unbalanced (with a zoom). even though i have had many years with the H1 i would still struggle with the menus.
the contax is completely intuitive, everything is where its suppose to be. real dials, dedicated single purpose buttons and leavers. its amazing how design has gone backwards with the new cameras the last few years.
the contax with a full frame back shooting a frame a sec (or almost twice that with sensor plus), fast lenses and a battery grip the contax is hard to fault for me.
if only i could justify a IQ 160 i would be in heaven. it costs the price of a decent used car to upgrade to the nice IQ nice screen, but really , when i use the contax its in a full production setup and everything is tethered and the theres an iPad setup right beside me.
paul
+1 for the Contax, but the OP requires a New camera... Rrgards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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I've been using Phase One for a few years now, first the AF and now the DF. Phase One/Mamiya bodies are perfectly acceptable, they do the job, but they're just difficult to love in the way that the Hasselblad V or Contax 645 could steal your heart and make you forgive any shortcomings. With Phase One/Mamiya bodies the shortcomings just keep niggling away at you.
The Phase One dealers keep gossiping that an entirely new body is coming. So maybe they'll improve that so-so focusing screen and the plasticky feel, but I guess there's nothing they can do about the "screwdriver" AF.
I also use a Linhof M679cs. It's magnificently engineered, but IMO technical cameras and digital backs will remain an unhappy marriage until proper live view comes along. Then again, those same gossipy Phase One dealers say the IQ180 is the last of it's type before Phase One switches to CMOS, if so that'll probably fix the live view problem.
The real bottom line is that we're still some way from the "end of history" with MF digital, so no matter what the dream outfit is today there's every chance it'll soon be something else tomorrow!
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+1 for the Contax, but the OP requires a New camera... Rrgards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
why do people have to buy new cameras? especially when the new cameras don't offer hardly any more?
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Yeah, some old cameras are still way ahead of some of the new ones. The contax you like is one of them, but also Rollei 6008AF is now pretty old but still offers a lot. What about the Fuji 680? There's a neat camera you can't even get now. But the Hy6 is a big advancement over the 6008AF and the H bodies have continued to evolve. Curious to see if Phase/Leaf/Mamiya bring out something really new this time or not.
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why do people have to buy new cameras? especially when the new cameras don't offer hardly any more?
Before I say anything, I'd suggest buying the system I like more than just need. You can make almost any high end camera do what you want, but if you don't enjoy it, it doesn't make you happy, or like they say with cars, if you don't turn in the parking lot and take a second look at it, then I'd keep looking.
The problem with a lot of cameras, especially, some of the older ones is the ability to find someone that has them all where you can test them in the way you work, or want to work.
That being said, I pretty much agree with Paul on "why new" in some instances.
I'm not a luddite and have been doing digital for a long period and don't long for times past, but with learning 10 camera menus, probably 50 programs, It may or may not have improved my photography, though it has positively eaten into a good 35% of my life.
It's funny, i've shot about a trillion images with the Canon's and Nikons and unless I use them for 2 days I still have to pause and think, oh yea that little wrench means __________. Each new model is just different enough to be a little less intuitive.
I can go months and not touch the Contax(s) but pick them up and start shooting in a minute.
(http://spotsinthebox.com/julia_yellow_bar.jpg)
Back on topic.
If you do consider a Contax be aware that the viewfinder with a prism is rather small, (kind of like the Mamiya) but if your shooting horizontal with a waist level finder it's quite large. Also the cameras never break on their own (at least my 4 haven't) but it's easy to break a few things, like always cover the rear curtain for the shutter or some assistant will stick a thumb through it and never travel with the prism on or pick the camera up by the prism because the little clips that hold it on will fracture and you won't get a decent connection and once you put a digital back on the camera, like all things digital everything must connect.
That's the downside, the upside is the lenses are brutal sharp, fast and the camera and lenses and inexpensive. You can buy backups cheap and if you look around you can find repairs when needed.
The only other downside is there is no fast 110 autofocus, like the H series. 110 to 120 is a sweat spot for a lot of our work and the macro works fine, but you have to manually focus and that's a skill set that is getting lost.
Also there are no leaf shutter lenses, but since 95% of our work is now with HMI's or fast strobes, the ability to sync fast doesn't concern me that much.
None of that matters to me because I like them, you'll find others with the same opinions of Rollei's, v series blads, RZ's and Fuji 680's. Along with Contax, these seem to be cameras people enjoy as cameras.
IMO
BC
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hands down, contax 645 + p1
i chose the contax because of some amazing work a friend is doing with film only. still i need to get to his level though!
later i got the p1 p45+, its just a killer combo with some very very sharp lenses and nice bokeh rendering.
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Personally I'd wait and see what Photokina has to offer. It might be nothing but who knows there might be enough of a game changer announced that would change what's the 'best' MFD camera or perhaps make what is currently available more affordable/available used.
Personally I'm vested with Phase One DF & Alpa STC with an IQ160/P25+ and a backup Aptus 65 but I very, very, VERY nearly sold up to go to the Leica S2 system because of the glass. Leica might be one of the vendors who'll have something new - I stress MIGHT. The one thing I have found over the years is that with MFD the glass is the most important thing.
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If you were purchasing a new MFD camera today, which would you choose?
A Fuji gx680, a film back and a scanner.... even an Epson V750 would do.
Big clear viewfinder either prism or waist level rotating backs for shooting vertical and 50mm to 500mm lenses all with tilt and shift, as well as extremely close focus.
But the main reason is image quality that goes beyond manipulation in post with the output of a sensor.
MFD just has too small of a sensor for it to be worth the bother considering just how damn good the D800 is.
If I want the look of a larger capture area I'll skip MFD and go to a 6x8 negative and a scanner.
That is my idea of digital medium format. An SLR that is a close as I can get to my 8x10 camera.
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I also have the SINAR Hy6 with the emotion 75LV. What back are you using; I'm thinking about the new LEAF Aptus II 12,
wondering about how to connect to Hy6, since many of the pre-owed are the wrong fitting for the Hy6.
Jerry Reed
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get the AFI 12. Its configured for the Hy6.
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Geoffrey is correct, the back has to be an AFi-II back. You cannot mount a "normal" Aptus-II 12 on a Hy6
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I see you shoot hair.
That would suggest you are shooting strobes?
Since you are starting from scratch, I assume you have no legacy lens problems?
I then would try all the options, but unless I missed it, no one has suggested Leica S2?
Once they finally get CS lenses, I would find a 1/1000 sec synch attractive, and I like that their batteries last forever.
Given the cost of any MFD system, I would be prudent to rent all they systems and see which one you like to use. All give great results.
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Yes I agree with the Leica S2. It is a game changer in "little" MFs world (not the D800, really, you can forget). It is a game changer because it is smaller than a D3x/D4, rugged (very, even splash proof) and the viewfinder is awesomely spectacular. It is a system but absolutely not closed like hassie or PO (sorry guys I know there is some aficionados over here), because of the files. You export in DNG file format directly in LR (given with the camera). The DNG is the universal RAW file, made by adobe for adobe apps.
You also have the choice. Leica lenses are ... leica lenses :) Perfect or close to be. With the H - adapter you can fully control Hassie lenses too :o
I'd go for S2 + one spare battery + APO MACRO SUMMARIT-S 120 mm f/2.5 (and mabe the 35 mm) Unfortunately I bought a BmW and it is useful too :P But sure when money flaw again the S2 (or S3) will land in my studio.
But, as NB already said, try and test it. Test the systems and choose the one who fit correctly in your hands and, most important, in your feelings.
Only you can have the final word and we are just the little demons, teasing you on your shoulder ;)