Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: digitaldog on January 19, 2012, 07:38:25 pm
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Andrew did a good job but...I think he should have used the Before/After function to give an indicator on HOW to correct an image in soft proofing. The Before/After views are really important to give an indication of what changes need to be done for the image to print optimally.
You wish is my command (and a good point). Part two:
http://digitaldog.net/files/LR4_softproof2.mov
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Quote from: Photo Op on January 16, 2012, 07:53:30 PM
What I'm asking, is the Before the DNG, and the After the Virtual Copy, with however many subsequent adjustments?
Jeff Schewe-
No...Before/After has nothing to do with VC's...
:~)
Andrew- the above discussion took place in a another thread that was not intended for a discussion of soft proofing. Chris graciously separated it into this thread so I was hoping you could respond to my question, especially since you have now updated to your second video (both of which are greatly appreciated). My question was whether once soft proofing is "on" does the "before" represent the photo as it existed in the develop module before soft proofing was initiated. I am hoping that is the case, since it would represent the original to which I am trying to get the "after" virtual copy to "equal". If you need to refer to the original thread where the discussion resided before transfer, it is here-
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=55786.new;topicseen#new
Thanks!
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My question was whether once soft proofing is "on" does the "before" represent the photo as it existed in the develop module before soft proofing was initiated.
Yes...and you can test it yourself...
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Yes...and you can test it yourself...
Great! ....and how can I test it?
Thanks.
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Great! ....and how can I test it?
Use it...
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Wordy, but at least you didn't say RTFM!
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...but at least you didn't say RTFM!
Ain't no manual yet...
:~)
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While I have you on the line...are you using Lion, yet?
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...are you using Lion, yet?
Only on the laptop...the main machine is still 10.6.6 because, well, I still don't trust Lion and I still need to learn how to use it. The main machine is mission critical and I can't afford to guess whether it'll work or not–it's pretty exotic with a Mac RAID car, multiple SAS 15K drive arrayed with a separate boot drive and Users drive and a PCI card running a pair of ESATA 6 drive arrays...
About some things, I'm pretty conservative...(not politics mind you although I tend to be a financial conservative and social liberal willing to pay my fair share of taxes).
:~)
Actually, I misspoke...I'm at 10.6.8 on the main machine...
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Thanks! And another good thread on SP-
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/947403?tstart=0
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Thanks for the 2 videos on LR4 and softproofing. I have another question: While my workflow and way of processing make the features of LR not particularly useful for me, I must say that the implementation of softproofing in LR4Beta is very attractive to me, compared with CS5. If I were to buy LR4 when it is released (hopefully with SP at least as good as it is in the beta) it would only be for the SP, and I would still use CS5 and Bridge for the way I work. Can we assume that CS6 will incorporate the changes to softproofing, in which case my copy of LR4 would become as irrelevant to me and unused, the way previous versions of LR have?
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Can we assume that CS6 will incorporate the changes to softproofing, in which case my copy of LR4 would become as irrelevant to me and unused, the way previous versions of LR have?
No...
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Jeff, Andrew (DigitalDog)-
Is this technique also appropriate for soft proofing in LR4?
http://laurashoe.com/2012/01/25/soft-proofing-in-lightroom-4-with-the-original-next-to-the-proof/
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Is this technique also appropriate for soft proofing in LR4?
http://laurashoe.com/2012/01/25/soft-proofing-in-lightroom-4-with-the-original-next-to-the-proof/
If she is dragging the 2nd window to the main display that should be OK. The potential problem actually using two displays is they might not be identical, high end calibrated display systems (dual PA271W’s as an example) where using the dual display might not produce a good match. You have a wide gamut and sRGB-like display? Forget about it. I’d just type the Y key and edit the VC. Dragging a copy over is clever (not sure what this provides the Y doesn’t).
What I don’t understand is why she recommends this:
Next you will change the definition of “Before”: in the History panel, right-click on the History step that immediately proceeds your first proof adjustment (or the top step if you haven’t made any yet),and choose “Copy History Step Settings to Before”.
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I think it's because you have to make a develop 'change' in order to get the 'make/use a proof copy' popup and her step gets you back to the pre-change state?
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I think it's because you have to make a develop 'change' in order to get the 'make/use a proof copy' popup and her step gets you back to the pre-change state?
I did, then tried the suggestion and now both before and after appear the same. Confused.
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Hi folks, thanks to Mike Nelson Pedde for letting me know about this discussion. Frankly, to be honest, until I read this thread and checked into it further, I did not realize that Before now has a new "Master Photo" option for when you are using a proof copy to make your proof adjustments! I still learn something new every day -- the downside of writing a blog is that I learn in public. ;-)
My workflow is to develop my photo optimally without considering any output device, and then when I am ready to output, I will turn on soft proofing, select my profile or color space, and if this changes my photo, apply output-specific develop adjustments to get it as close as possible to where it was just before soft proofing. If you choose to do this on the master rather than a proof copy, as far as I can tell, there is no direct way to make this step in your Develop history your "Before" in the Before/After (Y) comparison. You have to right click on the last step in History before soft-proofing and choose Copy History Step Settings to Before. (If you have not yet made any soft-proofing adjustments, it will be your last step in History.)
The Before will be your developed photo before soft proofing adjustments (and does not show the effect of applying the profile or output color space.) As you work on the After, the goal is now to get it as close as possible to the Before
Time to rewrite that post. :-)
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The Before (IF YOU SELECTED PROOF COPY) will be your developed photo before soft proofing adjustments (and does not show the effect of applying the profile or output color space.) As you work on the After, the goal is now to get it as close as possible to the Before.
Laura- thank you for responding to this thread. I inserted the bold in your statement above to ask the following question. Just to confirm(?), are you saying that if one chooses to select proof copy (Virtual Copy) when first initiating soft proofing, that the Before rendition contains ALL of the adjustments (History) to the photo made in LR up until SP was selected?
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My workflow is to develop my photo optimally without considering any output device, and then when I am ready to output, I will turn on soft proofing, select my profile or color space, and if this changes my photo, apply output-specific develop adjustments to get it as close as possible to where it was just before soft proofing.
I would agree that we do want to edit the master to look as good as possible in a non output agnostic way.
You then want to apply edits to the soft proofed VC presumably to make it look closer to the master. The Y key gives you that before and after.
The VC is then a specific edited iteration with a fixed output profile and rendering intent (the later nicely carried over to the Print module for you).
It is interesting that Adobe allows you to edit the master as a master with a soft proof. I suspect that might be a tad dangerous...
If you choose to do this on the master rather than a proof copy, as far as I can tell, there is no direct way to make this step in your Develop history your "Before" in the Before/After (Y) comparison. You have to right click on it and choose Copy History Step Settings to Before. Otherwise you are comparing your soft proofing adjustments to the photo as it was originally imported.
Still a wee confused but I think I’m closer to seeing what you are after. At least by the use of the Option Click History step part. I’d think you would want to compare your soft proofing adjustments to the photo as it was originally edited prior to the initial soft proof editing. I think the fundamental disconnect here is what we end up with and see asking for Before. As you state, when you ask for this, you get the image as it appeared from import, you lose any subsequent edits you applied up to this point prior going into Soft Proof right? That is a problem. And a Snapshot doesn’t appear to help us here.
What I did was make a soft proof. When I cranked up Tint to make the image look vastly different (Magenta), I got the dialog asking if I wanted a VC or to edit on the Master. While I think it may not be a good idea, I selected Master. Then I clicked on the Y key. I see the before and after. I think what you might be saying (?) is that using the Option Click History bit, the Before would now show the magenta Tint Edit right? Because when I do this, the Before gets magenta due to the move on the Tint slider. The problem is, both before and after look identical to me. I don’t think that one shows us the edit without the soft proof. That is what I think we’d want here. This seems to suggest we make a VC when asked for a before and after, as the before is the before with the edits.
Here is yet another problem I’d like you to consider. Say you setup a soft proof and edit (Master). You make some edits. You then change the profile (not smart but doable). Apply more edits. Should LR not ask you if you wish to make a VC or continue to edit this Master? Applying a profile for a soft proof doesn’t track in History. If it did, we’d see what profile we selected (assuming this was written in the history) and, if we alter the profile, LR could probably ask us if we wanted to do this (and we could back out of it with History).
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Still a wee confused but I think I’m closer to seeing what you are after. At least by the use of the Option Click History step part. I’d think you would want to compare your soft proofing adjustments to the photo as it was originally edited prior to the initial soft proof editing. I think the fundamental disconnect here is what we end up with and see asking for Before. As you state, when you ask for this, you get the image as it appeared from import, you lose any subsequent edits you applied up to this point prior going into Soft Proof right? That is a problem. And a Snapshot doesn’t appear to help us here.
Andrew- EXACTLY my point in belaboring the question- At the time of selecting soft proofing, to my way of thinking, since the whole attempt is to see how your edited photo will appear in print (web?) the virtual copy should be compared to the edited photo, NOT the image as ingested without edits. Maybe this discussion will engender a response from the LR team (I.e., Eric), instead of us guessing what's going on.
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Andrew- EXACTLY my point in belaboring the question- At the time of selecting soft proofing, to my way of thinking, since the whole attempt is to see how your edited photo will appear in print (web?) the virtual copy should be compared to the edited photo, NOT the image as ingested without edits.
The VC does, the Master doesn’t if I have this all straight. That makes the ability to soft proof and apply edits to the Master (if you want to use Before and After at least) a real headache.
I have to wonder why we are even allowed to edit the master this way.
Here is another behavior I think is either buggy or just poorly thought out. It also involves History:
1. Invoke Soft Proof (S key).
2. Make an Edit (dialog pops, you say you want to use Master).
3. Make more edits or maybe not. Click in History to step prior to the soft proof (I used Import). Result is, you are back to square one. Good.
4. Type S key and load profile, alter slider. Result: No dialog asking if you want to edit the Master or VC. Expected result: Dialog pops (I went back in History).
I really think that History and Soft Proofing have significant disconnects that shouldn’t be.
Eric? Jeff?
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Oh man, this really is screwed up...
Do this.
Take an image in Develop that has never been worked on. If you want, type Y (both before and after look the same).
Make some edits. As you’d expect, there is an update between the two.
Type S key. Now make an edit. You get the dialog asking for VC or Master. Doesn’t matter what you select.
Now type Command/Control Z to undo the edit.
Now close soft proof (S key), reopen again. Even pick a different profile.
Make an Edit. You are not asked if you want to apply this to a Master or VC. It is as if the dialog will only appear once and that’s it.
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I have to wonder why we are even allowed to edit the master this way.
Eric? Jeff?
Among other things regarding SP, but that's a good reason for these discussions during the BETA stage, No?
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Still a wee confused but I think I’m closer to seeing what you are after. At least by the use of the Option Click History step part. I’d think you would want to compare your soft proofing adjustments to the photo as it was originally edited prior to the initial soft proof editing. I think the fundamental disconnect here is what we end up with and see asking for Before. As you state, when you ask for this, you get the image as it appeared from import, you lose any subsequent edits you applied up to this point prior going into Soft Proof right? That is a problem. And a Snapshot doesn’t appear to help us here.
Sigh, it looks like I somehow didn't hit "Post" to my answer to this a few hours ago.
We are on the same page.
"Before" has to be the end of working your master, before you start making output specific adjustments. And also we are in agreement that it is much better to make output specific adjustments on the proof copy, not the original. In my post I was just providing viewing comparison options for both scenarios.
To make clear, in the (less optimal) case of making output edits to the master, here is what I mean to get Before and After to work as needed:
Photo example:
1. Import (History step 1), adjust highlights (H2), add saturation (H3). Looks fabulous = "Master".
2. Turn on soft proofing and set profile. Loses contrast, so I want to add some.
3. Increase contrast (=H4). Dialog pops up, I select "Make this a proof."
4. Turn on Before/After (Y)
5. In History, right-click on H3, and copy history settings to before.
Now Before is the "Master", and I can adjust "After" to try to match it.
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Just hypothesizing about LR/PS workflow considering the LR4 soft proofing...
In the past (Pre-LR4):
Import raw file into LR3; do as much editing as possible in LR3; export as TIF or PSD to Photoshop; add secret sauce; season to taste; perform soft-proofing for a selected printer profile & try to make the image look good again; back to LR3 to print the now-looking-good-again PSD/TIF.
Never do any LR3 adjustments on the PSD/TIF - if the image needs further adjustment (eg to print to a different printer) open the PSD/TIF in Photoshop and add another layer set to do the new soft proofing fixes for the image; back to LR3 to print to the new printer.
Is it NOW valid to do this?:
Import raw file into LR4; do as much editing as possible in LR4; export as TIF or PSD to Photoshop; add secret sauce; season to taste; back to LR4 for soft-proofing the PSD/TIF, making a VC for a selected printer profile & try to make the image look good again; LR4 for printing.
If I need to print the image to a different printer, just use LR4 to make another VC of the unchanged PSD/TIF for any changes soft proof needed.
So rather than ending up with a single TIF/PSD with a number of different layer sets (one for each soft-proofed printer) - I now end up with a number of VCs for the PSD/TIF (one VC for each soft-proofed printer).
Sounds OK to me. Am I missing something?
Kevin
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Photo example:
1. Import (History step 1), adjust highlights (H2), add saturation (H3). Looks fabulous = "Master".
2. Turn on soft proofing and set profile. Loses contrast, so I want to add some.
3. Increase contrast (=H4). Dialog pops up, I select "Make this a proof."
4. Turn on Before/After (Y)
5. In History, right-click on H3, and copy history settings to before.
Now Before is the "Master", and I can adjust "After" to try to match it.
I just tried the above without #5. After making the contrast adjustment and checking to make a vc proof, the master (before) is intact without the contrast move. Only the vc after has it. Are you trying the sp edit the master? Why?
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Great! ....and how can I test it?
(http://www.herfree.com/avatar.php)
Roth,
If you mean how can you get LR4 Beta, see this page on the Lightroom Journal for relevant links and information about the beta:
http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2012/01/lr4betanowavailable.html (http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2012/01/lr4betanowavailable.html)
Regards,
Nigel