Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: ZoranC on January 10, 2012, 08:16:00 pm

Title: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: ZoranC on January 10, 2012, 08:16:00 pm
I am looking at purchasing the printer and I have narrowed down the choices to Epson 3000 and 3880.

What attracts me to 3880 is bigger prints.

What attracts me to 3000 is that I will be getting 220dpi out of my 12MP files with it, vs 180 with 3880, and that it has 2 picoliter drops vs 3.5 for 3880, which implies better print quality out of 3000 when looked up close, especially when it comes to skin gradations.

But at same time I keep wondering whether one could perceive any difference when 13x19 220dpi print with 2 picoliter 3000 and 17x22 180dpi print with 3.5 picoliter 3880 are looked at from their respective regular viewing distances?

And how much of perceptible difference would be between 13x19 220dpi print with 2 picoliter 3000 and 13x19 220dpi print with 3.5 picoliter 3880 are looked at from same viewing distance that is regular for 13x19 print?

Please advise.
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: rmyers on January 10, 2012, 08:43:42 pm
A little ink math to consider if you haven't already.


R3000 ships with 9 ink cartridges @ 25.9 ml each for a total of 233.1 ml of ink.  Replacement ink cartridge = $31.99 at one on line retailer.  Ink = $1.24 per ml.

3880 ships with 9 ink cartridges @ 80 ml each for a total of 720 ml of ink.  Replacement cart = $59.95 at same retailer.  Ink = $0.75 per ml.

If you deduct the 233.1 that the R3000 ships with from the 720 the 3880 ships with, you get 486.9 more ml of ink in the 3880.  If you use the 3000 price of $1.24, that = $603.76 more ink shipping with the 3880 that you were eventually going to use in the R3000.

There is approx $230.00 difference in the printers at the same on line retailer.

Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: AFairley on January 10, 2012, 08:52:25 pm
A little ink math to consider if you haven't already.


R3000 ships with 9 ink cartridges @ 25.9 ml each for a total of 233.1 ml of ink.  Replacement ink cartridge = $31.99 at one on line retailer.  Ink = $1.24 per ml.

3880 ships with 9 ink cartridges @ 80 ml each for a total of 720 ml of ink.  Replacement cart = $59.95 at same retailer.  Ink = $0.75 per ml.

If you deduct the 233.1 that the R3000 ships with from the 720 the 3880 ships with, you get 486.9 more ml of ink in the 3880.  If you use the 3000 price of $1.24, that = $603.76 more ink shipping with the 3880 that you were eventually going to use in the R3000.

There is approx $230.00 difference in the printers at the same on line retailer.



Looking at B&H, he 3000 after rebate, deducting the value of the ink that ships with it, costs $345.  The 3880 after rebate, deducting the ink value, costs $420.  So you are paying $75 more to get a printer that will print larger and whose ink costs about 60% of the 3000's.  The only thing you are giving up by going to the 3880 is the ability to print on roll paper.  the 3880 would be a no brainer to me.
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: ZoranC on January 10, 2012, 09:11:19 pm
A little ink math to consider if you haven't already.
Thank you, yes I did consider it, I am focusing this topic mainly on perceptions of output quality.
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: ZoranC on January 10, 2012, 09:12:36 pm
Looking at B&H, he 3000 after rebate, deducting the value of the ink that ships with it, costs $345. ...
Thank you, what about questions on output quality I asked, please?
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: rmyers on January 10, 2012, 09:16:32 pm
I haven't seen a print from a 3000 to compare to a 3880, so I can't help you there.  You might be able to order sample prints from Epson if  you can't find someone that has a 3000.
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Farmer on January 10, 2012, 11:18:40 pm
You won't see any improvement on the R3000 compared to the R3880.  The minimum droplet size is not the deciding factor in output quality.  The Epson's use variable droplet technology so depending on your print mode it will use different droplet sizes (or combinations).

Both will produce excellent results.
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: ZoranC on January 12, 2012, 12:58:58 am
You won't see any improvement on the R3000 compared to the R3880.  The minimum droplet size is not the deciding factor in output quality.  The Epson's use variable droplet technology so depending on your print mode it will use different droplet sizes (or combinations).

Both will produce excellent results.
Thank you!
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on January 12, 2012, 03:58:04 am
You won't see any improvement on the R3000 compared to the R3880.  The minimum droplet size is not the deciding factor in output quality.  The Epson's use variable droplet technology so depending on your print mode it will use different droplet sizes (or combinations).

Both will produce excellent results.

Makes me wonder then why Epson desktop models use 2 picoliter droplets as a minimum droplet size and other desktop models go as low as 1.5 picoliter. The variable droplet size exists for all models, some have 3  droplet sizes, some 5. The 3880 has a minimum droplet size of 3.5 picoliter. My line of thought has been that the wider formats have larger droplets to keep enough speed at the sizes they print and the larger droplet will be less visible on those sizes considering the viewing distance. The distance between nozzle and substrate can be increased with larger droplets as they will keep their course better so media that can not be kept flat over wider areas, like in wide format printers, will benefit. All compromises in view of the sizes printed. The definition/addressing (shape/placing) of the dot laid down with a pro head could be better and compensate the droplet size difference somewhat but that is all. The custom quad ink developers take the droplet size into account, where they see 4 to 7 different ink grades as good for wide formats (3.5 picoliter), the desktop models can do with 2 to 4 grades.

On the economy of the R3000 versus 3880, much depends on what volume is printed in a year. Roughly 1.5 ML ink counting per square foot.  The 3880's 720 ML ink translates to 480 square feet of print in best case. The R3000's 234 ML to 156 square feet. Not counting the length of the printers ink tubes that have to be filled (must be about 30% more to fill on the 3880) and not counting the gloss/matte black ink switch cycles on both. Price difference of $ 580 between the R3880 and R3000 buys you about
470 ML R3000 ink carts which should translate to 314 extra square feet printed. All BHphoto Jan 2012 prices. If you print less than 500 square feet in two years then the R3000 is the better choice, not counting other factors. If you print more than 500 square feet in one year take the 3880. Between those numbers it is harder to decide.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Farmer on January 12, 2012, 04:39:29 am
The models that dropped down to 1.5 picoliters (such as the R1800 etc) didn't have 3 blacks.  The availability of such a small dot size is an alternate solution to K3.

Under a loupe, you may see some benefit of the smaller minimum drop size, but in actual practice, having held prints from the two together, there is no practical difference.
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on January 12, 2012, 07:45:59 am
The models that dropped down to 1.5 picoliters (such as the R1800 etc) didn't have 3 blacks.  The availability of such a small dot size is an alternate solution to K3.

Under a loupe, you may see some benefit of the smaller minimum drop size, but in actual practice, having held prints from the two together, there is no practical difference.

There are differences. Gradations benefit of smaller droplets>dots so you can use less black-grey inks and use the extra head channels for extra hues like in the R1900. Or just deliver a cheaper printer with less channels like the Claria models. But we compared the R3000 that has a 2 picoliter minimum droplet size and the R3880 that has a 3.5 picoliter minimum droplet size. Almost half the size and in practice that is quite analogue to the dot size on the paper. Both have variable droplet sizes above that minimum but at their highest resolution setting both will use their respective minimum droplet sizes. Both have the same inkset, 9 channels, 8 in use per media preset. What could be the reason for Epson to use 2 picoliter droplets in the R3000 if 3.5 would have been as good? It sacrifices speed for image quality and that is a good choice when smaller prints will be made. What I recall of Epson technology for dry minilabs, Noritsu/Fuji, is 1.5 picoliter + 4 droplet sizes above that, CMYK dye. If there is a photo printing market that asks for speed  it is in that sector. But they went for 1.5 picoliter droplets so the 4x6"s can compete with analogue output in image quality.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: John R Smith on January 12, 2012, 12:31:34 pm
Ernst is spot-on, as usual.

The smaller the print, the bigger the advantage the R3000 will have. Which is why I may well purchase one.

John
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Light Seeker on January 12, 2012, 01:20:46 pm
Something else worth considering is that Epson positions and treats the 3880 as a "pro" printer. A few years ago I went from a 2200 to the 3800, which is (roughly) representative of the two models you're considering. I found the 3800 to be in a different class in terms of design, build and handling. It was more "elegant", for want of a better term. It would be like comparing a consumer level SLR to a pro or semi-pro SLR. Both will take great pictures, but the pro body is more responsive and pleasant to work with, and more resilient in harsher environments.

Terry.

Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Farmer on January 12, 2012, 04:05:05 pm
Again, this is all technically correct, but having held prints from both printers next to each other there is no practical difference.  I would not make the decision as to whether to purchase an R3000 or a Pro 3880 based on expectation of output quality.  All other factors will be more useful in distinguishing between the two products to determine which is the best solution for a given user.
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: ZoranC on January 12, 2012, 06:28:31 pm
Thank you all!
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: bjanes on January 12, 2012, 06:51:31 pm
A little ink math to consider if you haven't already.


R3000 ships with 9 ink cartridges @ 25.9 ml each for a total of 233.1 ml of ink.  Replacement ink cartridge = $31.99 at one on line retailer.  Ink = $1.24 per ml.

3880 ships with 9 ink cartridges @ 80 ml each for a total of 720 ml of ink.  Replacement cart = $59.95 at same retailer.  Ink = $0.75 per ml.

If you deduct the 233.1 that the R3000 ships with from the 720 the 3880 ships with, you get 486.9 more ml of ink in the 3880.  If you use the 3000 price of $1.24, that = $603.76 more ink shipping with the 3880 that you were eventually going to use in the R3000.

There is approx $230.00 difference in the printers at the same on line retailer.

Whether or not the larger ink cartridges of the 3880 would be economically advantageous depends on your printing volume. Epson says the life of the cartridges in the printer is 6 months, although I've read of users experiencing no problems after 1 year or more. I went with the 3880, but don't know if my print volume will be enough to use up the cartridges before they out date.

Regards,

Bill
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: ZoranC on January 12, 2012, 07:03:03 pm
Whether or not the larger ink cartridges of the 3880 would be economically advantageous depends on your printing volume. Epson says the life of the cartridges in the printer is 6 months, although I've read of users experiencing no problems after 1 year or more. I went with the 3880, but don't know if my print volume will be enough to use up the cartridges before they out date.
Thank you Bill, I have been taking this into consideration as I am feeling that my volume in first year would be such that I would be throwing away ink in 3880, and I have no way of guessing whether business would take off and that would change in second year. If it doesn't then 3880 would be a burden.
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Light Seeker on January 12, 2012, 07:49:25 pm
I have run ink cartridges in my 3800 for considerably longer than 6 months; for considerably longer than a year actually. It is wise however, to agitate them periodically to keep the pigment in suspension.

Terry.
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: AFairley on January 12, 2012, 08:45:57 pm
Thank you Bill, I have been taking this into consideration as I am feeling that my volume in first year would be such that I would be throwing away ink in 3880, and I have no way of guessing whether business would take off and that would change in second year. If it doesn't then 3880 would be a burden.

You are forgetting that you are paying only 60% of the the ink cost on the 3880, so even if you have to throw away 40% of the 3880 ink, your cost per print has been the same.  Not to mention that you can print with Ultrachrome inks for at least 2 years in the 3000 (personal experience).
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: ZoranC on January 12, 2012, 10:58:17 pm
You are forgetting that you are paying only 60% of the the ink cost on the 3880, so even if you have to throw away 40% of the 3880 ink, your cost per print has been the same.
Wouldn't it be better (for printer) to use up all the ink rather than risk a chance of dried out ink clogging things up?

Not to mention that you can print with Ultrachrome inks for at least 2 years in the 3000 (personal experience).
I thought R3000 is not even a year old?
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: ZoranC on January 12, 2012, 10:59:19 pm
I have run ink cartridges in my 3800 for considerably longer than 6 months; for considerably longer than a year actually. It is wise however, to agitate them periodically to keep the pigment in suspension.
Thank you! What's the agitation procedure that you are recommending?
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on January 13, 2012, 03:32:59 am
You are forgetting that you are paying only 60% of the the ink cost on the 3880, so even if you have to throw away 40% of the 3880 ink, your cost per print has been the same.  Not to mention that you can print with Ultrachrome inks for at least 2 years in the 3000 (personal experience).

Interesting. What I counted is that near 500 square feet produced the price per square feet would be the same. It is above that number that things change and the 3880 becomes cheaper, below that number the 3000 is cheaper. Throwing away 40% of the ink does not make the 3880 purchase a better choice, below and above that volume printed. A company would estimate the expected economic lifetime of a printer and the volume produced during that period and base a print price on that. In that case I would set 3 to 4 years as the lifetime. If more than 500 square feet is produced per year, more than 1500 to 2000 during the lifetime than the 3880 is certainly the better choice. If it will not be more than 750 to 1000 then I would think of the 3000. If your 3000 is really 2 years old and there are carts in that printer as old, you made at least the right printer choice :-) it would have been worse with a 3880.

Both the 3000 and the 3880 lens are more or less using an OEM CIS internally, carts separated from the head. Larger carts both than models that carry the carts on the head. The economy of a printer changes a lot if one considers refilling carts with the ink from carts of the larger models and filling 26-80 ML carts is less a hassle than the much smaller carts. With more courage you could even short circuit to the internal tubes of the printer from the larger carts. Something I have done on more than one printer. Prices per ML drop to 20-25 Eurocents ex VAT a ML depending on the wide format cart size. You are still using the Epson factory ink. Avoid that route if the volume is as low as 500 square feet a year, ink will stay too long in the system. If that route would be interesting then also consider the 4900 + larger carts, no DIY skills required.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on January 13, 2012, 03:36:35 am
I have run ink cartridges in my 3800 for considerably longer than 6 months; for considerably longer than a year actually. It is wise however, to agitate them periodically to keep the pigment in suspension.

Terry.
My findings exactly.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on January 13, 2012, 03:38:04 am
Thank you! What's the agitation procedure that you are recommending?
I take each cartridge out of the printer, oscillate it gently for a few seconds, then put it back. It takes less than two minutes in all. I do it every month or two.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Wayne Fox on January 13, 2012, 04:24:42 am

What attracts me to 3000 is that I will be getting 220dpi out of my 12MP files with it, vs 180 with 3880

where are you coming up with those numbers?  a 12 mp file is @3k x 4k pixels in dimension.  If you print that to an 8x10 print, you will be at 400dpi. If you print it at 16x20, you'll be at 200dpi.  it's the size of the image vs. the output size that determines this.  (internally the printers are working at 360/720 dpi ... both the same so it's a lot more complicated than that. Maybe you're seeing that 180 is the nozzle density in the head, (but that's the same for both printers), so that's how many drops it can spit out at a time, but that's why the printer can't print a 1" wide strip on each pass.  If printing at max resolution (which vertically is 1440) the printer will pass over each inch 8 times.

So the question is whether the smaller dots, which you probably only get by forcing the 3000 to its highest resolution of 5670x1440 (using the smaller dots at the other resolutions probably won't get enough ink on the paper) would result in a real world visual difference, and I concur with Phil, I've seen both (and sell both models) and unless you use a loupe you won't be able to tell which print came from which printer (and even then probably only if you know what you are looking for and have a high powered loupe).

Several good  points I've seen mentioned (from my perspective both as an experienced user and a dealer).  Build quality .. the 3880 is a workhorse, solid and designed for serious use. It rarely clogs .. probably the best printer epson has ever made and maybe the best printer anyone has ever made (imho). The 3000 is a good printer but not in the same category.  The difference in ink costs is substantial, but as ernst mentioned, if you don't print a lot that's not helpful.  You can use the ink cartridges far longer than epson recommends without any issues, removing them and gently agitating them as Jeremy mentioned.  I recommend turning the cartridge upside down before oscillating it gently and then setting it down that way for a few minutes.. You can do 3 or 4 at a time, just hold them together as a group.  Do not shake.  Something to do every 6 to 8 weeks ... don't need to do it a lot.

Finally, the 3000 is a 13" wide printer, the 3880 is a 17" wide printer ... personally this alone sways most of those I sell too, unless they just don't have the budget and really don't print a lot.  Ok by me because most of them are bringing in stuff for me to print on my 3880 within a month or two.

(i guess the 3000 does do something the 3880 doesn't do .. DVD/CD's, if you need that.  That's the only reason I have one setup in my store).

Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on January 13, 2012, 08:19:37 am
Build quality .. the 3880 is a workhorse, solid and designed for serious use. It rarely clogs .. probably the best printer epson has ever made and maybe the best printer anyone has ever made (imho). The 3000 is a good printer but not in the same category.  The difference in ink costs is substantial, but as ernst mentioned, if you don't print a lot that's not helpful.  You can use the ink cartridges far longer than epson recommends without any issues, removing them and gently agitating them as Jeremy mentioned.  I recommend turning the cartridge upside down before oscillating it gently and then setting it down that way for a few minutes.. You can do 3 or 4 at a time, just hold them together as a group.  Do not shake.  Something to do every 6 to 8 weeks ... don't need to do it a lot.
+1 on this.  I started out with a 2880 and quickly found out that my printing needs were too high for this printer and its small cartridges.  I bought a 3880 about 15 months later and the difference in build quality between the two was clearly evident.  I've had this printer for just short of two years now and have gone through one complete set of ink cartridges and have NEVER had a clog (in fact I sometimes forget to do a routine nozzle check since it has been clog free).  I've used some of the cartridges for almost a year after opening and have visually seen no difference in the color rendition on prints (I probably should do a spectro check of patches to study the longevity of the inks after opening in more detail).  Agree with Wayne on the timing and approach to agitating the cartridges.  If you have the funds, this is the printer to purchase.
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Ronny Nilsen on January 13, 2012, 03:29:57 pm
How old is the 3880 now? Is it due for being replaced by a new model soon?

A local store is having a sale on the 3880 where they include software called  Mirage 1.6. Does anybody have any experience with this software?

Ronny
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Farmer on January 13, 2012, 03:45:03 pm
http://mirage.dinax.de/

It's very good.  I've tested it a reasonable amount.  It's a mini-RIP, if you like.  Great for nesting and other placement related functions for printing.  There are also very nice canvas wrap functions (auto mirroring at edges etc).  All in all, slick product with good results.
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on January 13, 2012, 03:46:40 pm
Ronny,

I think the 3880 is just a little over 2 years old.  I bought mine in early 2010 and it had only been on the market for three months or so.  Other than moving to the additional ink set of the 4900 (Ultrachrome HDR) it is difficult to see why Epson will phase this out (they are still marketing the 4880 which has roll paper capability and the same ink set despite putting the 4900 on the market).  There is a current rebate on the 3880 in the US but this is nothing new; rebates appear from time to time.  Were Epson to add the two new inks and create a 3900, one would assume the cost would be higher but the question is whether the they would keep the 3880 size or need to increase the width to accommodate two extra cartridges.  Just for comparison here are the widths in inches for the three printers:  3880 - 27"; 4880 - 30"; 4900 - 33"

Alan
Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: Wayne Fox on January 13, 2012, 04:51:59 pm
Yeah, I don't see Epson putting the HDR inks into the 38xx chassis, but then I was surprised they pulled it off with the 4900.  I'm just not sure the intended market for that printer really needs the orange/green inks, the head would get large so an entire new printer (like the 48-4900) change, the expanded gamut isn't significant for most photographic application.

I suppose Epson could be working on improvements in the current K3VM ink set other than just adding a couple of colors which may require printer upgrades.  But K3 inks are outstanding right now .. not sure there is much to be gained so we might not see anything for quite some time.  Even if they did, they would roll the changes out to the entire printer line right away .. it might be a while before it migrated to the 38xx chassis much like it took a while for vivid magenta in the 3880.

Title: Re: Epson 3000 vs. 3880? Help me decide
Post by: MHMG on January 13, 2012, 06:55:21 pm

I suppose Epson could be working on improvements in the current K3VM ink set other than just adding a couple of colors which may require printer upgrades.  But K3 inks are outstanding right now .. not sure there is much to be gained so we might not see anything for quite some time.  Even if they did, they would roll the changes out to the entire printer line right away .. it might be a while before it migrated to the 38xx chassis much like it took a while for vivid magenta in the 3880.


A boost in Epson's yellow ink lightfastness could bring Epson to parity with Canon and perhaps even HP, so it wouldn't surprise me if Epson chemists are working on further durability improvements even though many customers no doubt already think the print permanence issues have been resolved to everyone's satisfaction.  With the HDR ink set, as the orange and green inks are substituted for yellow ink (e.g.,in skin tones, greens, reds, and cyan/blue-greens, an increase in the light fade resistance for those blended colors is already measurable because yellow is the weakest link. While the improvement isn't huge and only places the HDR ink set modestly above the K3VM in overall lightfastness, it's real. For me, it would be enough to purchase a 4900 over the 3880 if I was going to be doing a lot of portraiture where better skin tone color retention over time is a desirable trait.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com