Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: RobWalstrom on January 10, 2012, 09:52:27 am
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I bought my PA271W with SpectraView II in Aug 2010. I had previously calibrated to 140 cdm^2, but a few weeks ago I started calibrating to 100 cdm^2 after I had comments from a couple folks saying my images looked dark. Anyway, there are a few oddities I've noticed, I'm just wondering if they are normal.
First, when starting the computer and getting into Windows, the monitor will do a snap color shift within about 30 seconds of Windows loading. The same thing happens when coming out of sleep. I'm assuming the monitor's LUT is being loaded or something? I just ask because the shift looks to be on the green side to me.
Second, I've recently started noticing that the monitor is noticeably brighter on the right side of the monitor. It's an area about 3" wide, right along the edge, although I find it less noticeable after the monitor has been on for over an hour. I'm wondering if I am noticing it now because I'm calibrated at 100 cdm^2 and it was less apparent at 140 cdm^2.
Hoping some PA owners can chime in here. Thanks in advance!
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No they are not normal. I don't get any of this. But I use a different operating system and calibration/profiling package. I'm on Mac OSX 10.6.7 and calibrated and profiled to 100 cd/m2 using BasicColor 4.x. That of course doesn't tell you where the problem may be, but suggests that the display is perfectly capable of operating at 100 cd/m2 without the effects you are describing. Some sleuthing indicated.
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The color "snap" after power on and resume from sleep is normal and is caused by the display updating itself based on the current temperatures etc.
As for the green shift, do you mean that this is always present, or just when the monitor starts? If it is always present then I would take a look at your Target white point and adjust accordingly if you feel a different value gives you more neutral results. If it is just as it starts, then it is probably caused by: a) the monitor warming up and b) the snap just looks green in comparison the initial power on image because your eyes adjusted to it.
Is the bright spot on the right side visible when looking at a full white screen, or mainly on a black screen? Some backlight bleeding is pretty much inevitable around the edges of the screen when looking at black. If you are seeing it on a white screen, have you tried adjusting the ColorComp level?
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The most difference I see when the display first starts-up is a bit of uneven luminance which is perfectly normal because the display needs to "warm up", after which it has great uniformity.
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All, thanks for the replies. Glad to know the color "snap" is normal, it was something I wasn't sure about since day one and now that seem to have a uniformity problem I wondered if I had other issues.
WillH, for the green shift I'm just saying that the color "snap" looks definitely greener, everything seems to have a green tint. I notice it less as time goes on. In the world of color management, I'm constantly questioning my eyes. :-) But I think you are right, it's just greener than it was before the snap, and I'm not used to it yet.
I noticed the bright spot (it's basically a strip about 3-4" wide along the right side of the monitor) when I had a browser open. The right side of the browser was quite a bit brighter than the rest of the screen. The left side was somewhat brighter as well, so it looked like a gradient of sorts. Last night I did some measurements using the SpectraView II app and NEC puck. I've calibrated to 100 cdm^2 using SpectraView II.
Right after startup: Left side: 120 cdm^2 Center: 96 cdm^2 Right side: 142 cdm^2
After 30 minutes of warmup: Left side: 106 cdm^2 Center: 97 cdm^2 Right side: 117 cdm^2
FYI, in MultiProfiler I had the Digital Uniformity Correction set to maximum. Is this what you are referring to when you mention ColorComp?
The color "snap" after power on and resume from sleep is normal and is caused by the display updating itself based on the current temperatures etc.
As for the green shift, do you mean that this is always present, or just when the monitor starts? If it is always present then I would take a look at your Target white point and adjust accordingly if you feel a different value gives you more neutral results. If it is just as it starts, then it is probably caused by: a) the monitor warming up and b) the snap just looks green in comparison the initial power on image because your eyes adjusted to it.
Is the bright spot on the right side visible when looking at a full white screen, or mainly on a black screen? Some backlight bleeding is pretty much inevitable around the edges of the screen when looking at black. If you are seeing it on a white screen, have you tried adjusting the ColorComp level?
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The "snap" your seeing is the gamma loader opening the monitor settings in Windows.
If you haven't done so download the latest firmware from the help menu in Spectraview. there is a readme file that goes along with this download and it explains some of the issues.
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As for the green shift, do you mean that this is always present, or just when the monitor starts? If it is always present then I would take a look at your Target white point and adjust accordingly if you feel a different value gives you more neutral results. If it is just as it starts, then it is probably caused by: a) the monitor warming up and b) the snap just looks green in comparison the initial power on image because your eyes adjusted to it.
Does editing the target negate the purpose of calibration, the setting of the monitor to a standard?
Peter
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The aim of the calibration is to bring the display back to a consistent point.
There is nothing magical with D65. If you find that tweaking it improves your color matching then do it.
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The monitor has a 5 year warranty so if it gets bad enough, I would have NEC do something. If you can't go without a monitor during that period then look at an decent Dell that you could buy and sell without much pain.
A correction and comment:
1. NEC offers a full4 year warranty on the PA series.
2. We will cross-ship a replacement unit on request so there is no need to be without a display.
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The "snap" your seeing is the gamma loader opening the monitor settings in Windows.
If you haven't done so download the latest firmware from the help menu in Spectraview. there is a readme file that goes along with this download and it explains some of the issues.
No this is not correct. The "gamma loader" just verifies the monitor settings, and sets the video card LUTs to linear. If you do see a color change when this loads then you may have some conflicting software that is setting a non-linear LUT in the video card.
The color "snap" is otherwise entirely in the display hardware.
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Right after startup: Left side: 120 cdm^2 Center: 96 cdm^2 Right side: 142 cdm^2
After 30 minutes of warmup: Left side: 106 cdm^2 Center: 97 cdm^2 Right side: 117 cdm^2
FYI, in MultiProfiler I had the Digital Uniformity Correction set to maximum. Is this what you are referring to when you mention ColorComp?
Yes. ColorComp = Digital Uniformity Correction.
The values you quoted are close to what I would expect. The uniformity correction assumes the display is fully warmed up.
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The aim of the calibration is to bring the display back to a consistent point.
There is nothing magical with D65. If you find that tweaking it improves your color matching then do it.
I thought that calibration is done for two reasons, one to do as you say, to bring consistency to the monitor. I also thought calibration is to have your monitor come to a standard that would give very similar looking images on different computer/monitor combinations. If I have to tweak an image to whatever degree in calibration it would seem that in doing so one would be moving away from that standard. Is that not correct?
Peter
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I also thought calibration is to have your monitor come to a standard that would give very similar looking images on different computer/monitor combinations.
Intuitively that makes a lot of sense but take 4 different monitors and calibrate/profile them to the same white point and you'll most likely end up with 4 different white points. A lot of that has to do with the spectral power distribution of the backlight in a given monitor. Even if you take the same monitor and calibrate/profile it with 4 different colorimeters, you'll still end up with 4 different results. Seems kind of pointless then 'eh? You can chase after "accurate" color (and that's a discussion of its own) or you can attempt consistent color and luminance. Consistent is easily doable and that's mostly what these tools allow us to accomplish.
Cheers, Joe
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WillH, thanks so much for the help and comments. I suspect I only noticed this brightness uniformity issue after changing my calibration to 100 cdm^2. After 45 minutes or so of warming up, the brighter area gets down to about 110 cdm^2, which is slightly noticeable, but given it's on the right side where I usually have palettes open it's not such a big deal. Previously I was calibrated at 140 cdm^2, and I doubt I ever noticed uniformity differences even at power on since that is about where the bright spot starts out at.
Thanks also for the comments regarding the green shift. Prior to posting this, I came across articles that said Windows 7 would forget which profile it was using after coming out of sleep. Are the NEC monitors using SpectraView susceptible to this?
http://www.pusztaiphoto.com/articles/colormgmt/win7/
http://www.damiensymonds.com.au/art_vista.html
And lastly thanks to WillH and Shewhorn for commenting about adjusting the white point. One thing I've wondered is if I should address the lighting in my workspace. I currently have low voltage lighting that uses MR16 bulbs which are quite warm. I haven't measured them but I imagine they are somewhere in 2500K-3000K range, possibly lower. Would it be wise to replace these bulbs with SoLux bulbs or something similar for evaluating how well my color matching is?
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I'm using a Mac - 10.7.3 - and I get the color snap too. Looks like it's mostly sorting out it's green channel. Bill, can you comment on this? I get a few of them, actually, depending on what I'm doing. The biggest offender is Microsoft Office - which causes my monitor to shift around a bit before settling down. If I work in Pshop or Lightroom, I don't get more than a few little shifts as the monitor 'wakes up' and 'warms up' etc. I've calibrated using the latest Spectraview, and I didn't used to get this on my 2690 WUXI2. Can anyone confirm the same? This is a new monitor, bought refurbed from NEC last month, on a new Radeon 5770 card.
PS just a plug. I've had a couple of GREAT experiences with NEC. Best customer service ever. I'm sure if your monitor is feeling poorly they can cheer it up!
Peyton
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I also thought calibration is to have your monitor come to a standard that would give very similar looking images on different computer/monitor combinations.
What standard? For most people, the calibration targets are those that produce a screen to print match: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml
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I recently purchased a PA271W and also the SpectraviewII/SpectraSensorPro bundle. When I put the NEC LCD Monitor and Software documentation CD into my Mac (OS10.6.6) this disk looked like it only contained a .exe file for PCs even though the manual refers to both Mac and PC. Among other folders, there was also a "drivers" folder but it was empty. So, I was clueless as to how to install Multiprofiler from this disk on my Mac. Thus, I just went straight to the SpectraView II software install, got it up an running, calibrated the new monitor, and it sure behaves like a calibrated monitor. But here's my question: Am I missing something without Multiprofiler or something else from the NEC LCD Monitor disk that I need to install to get the full potential of the PA271 monitor? In other words, am I getting the PA271W's full internal LUT capability from Spectraview II, and is the digital color compensation feature active, or do I need some supplemental software from the NEC LCD monitor Software and documentation disk? If so, how do I install it? The CD that came with the monitor is behaving like PC only (other than the PDF manuals).
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I recently purchased a PA271W and also the SpectraviewII/SpectraSensorPro bundle. When I put the NEC LCD Monitor and Software documentation CD into my Mac (OS10.6.6) this disk looked like it only contained a .exe file for PCs even though the manual refers to both Mac and PC. Among other folders, there was also a "drivers" folder but it was empty. So, I was clueless as to how to install Multiprofiler from this disk on my Mac. Thus, I just went straight to the SpectraView II software install, got it up an running, calibrated the new monitor, and it sure behaves like a calibrated monitor. But here's my question: Am I missing something without Multiprofiler or something else from the NEC LCD Monitor disk that I need to install to get the full potential of the PA271 monitor? In other words, am I getting the PA271W's full internal LUT capability from Spectraview II, and is the digital color compensation feature active, or do I need some supplemental software from the NEC LCD monitor Software and documentation disk? If so, how do I install it? The CD that came with the monitor is behaving like PC only (other than the PDF manuals).
Hi Mark - I'm using the same display. My understanding is that if you have Spectraview II installed you don't need, and there is no value-added, also having Multi-profiler. All that said, I'm not using Spectraview either. I prefer BasicColor Display from BasicColor GMbH Germany. It coheres very well with the display model and NEC's customized colorimeter for this display. Of course if you are feeling like money is burning a hole in your pocket you can also buy a BasicColor Discus, which is said to be la creme de la creme in colorimeters.
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Hi Mark - I'm using the same display. My understanding is that if you have Spectraview II installed you don't need, and there is no value-added, also having Multi-profiler. All that said, I'm not using Spectraview either. I prefer BasicColor Display from BasicColor GMbH Germany.
So BasicColor Display can correctly set the internal LUT on the NEC Spectraview monitors? How to ensure that one is really invoking the internal LUT of the monitor and how the display uniformity correction is being handled are my two continuing points of confusion. There's a clue to some of these issues in the Multiprofiler manual that states:
"Mac Users - Do not use the ColorSync control panel to switch between different monitor calibrations by selecting different monitor color profiles. Always use the MultiProfiler application to configure the display profile. This is because all of the necessary color adjustments, including the Look Up Tables, are stored in the display monitor and these must be set by MultiProfiler. The ColorSync profiles generated by MultiProfiler contain linear Look Up Tables for the video graphics adapter."
I'm interpreting this to mean that Multiprofiler and Spectraview write two LUTs, one for the monitor's "Spectraview Engine" on board the monitor, and another "linear look up Table" to null out the video graphics adaptor card in one's computer. Makes sense I guess, but it also means that one has to be sure the process doesn't get out of sync which apparently it may do if one starts playing around with the display panel options in the Mac system preferences menu.
Hi Mark S.. Perhaps BasicColor Display is also doing what Multifprofiler and SpectraviewII do, which is to update the internal LUT on the PA271W and also write the "linear LUT" for the display card, but I suspect that most other calibration software packages would undoubtedly try to treat the PA271W as just another monitor in need of a normally calibrated vgct tagged display profile for use with Colorsync.
I did manage to download a copy of Multiprofiler for MAC from NEC's website (silly that it wasn't included in the box or on the same CD that had the PC version), but I have resolved that confusion now, and indeed installed Multiprofiler successfully. Still some questions as to whether SpectraviewII and Multiprofiler have totally or only partially overlapping behavior, but one interesting thing I noted was that when I opened Multiprofiler and went to the "Picture mode" feature, there was a radio button labeled Spectraview and when toggled between other modes and back to that button, it restored the monitor calibration I had previously built in Spectraview II software. So, these two software packages appear to have overlapping integration of various functions, but it's a bit murky from the end-user's perspective, and one seems to have to really wade far into the manuals to try to make any sense of this.
best,
Mark
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I handled that issue by asking them and they told me that if I use Spectraview I don't need Multiprofiler. And BasicColor confirmed that their Display software is fully compatible with this display, to perform as intended. Hardware DDC compliant using the display LUT. BasicColor handles their "Reference" Series for the European market - essentially the same hardware.
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I should really collect some info and take notes since I have both SVII and BasICColor and a PA241W but recently when I was chasing a color profile bug (apparently in Lion, there is an intermittent bug in OpenGL where if you open an image in PS (CS5) and move it to another screen, the correct color profile is not applied. This manifests itself as either desaturated or LSD-induced overload depending on the direction of the movement. Shutting off OpenGL in PS eliminates the bug (as does CS6Beta I think))
I couldn't be 100% sure if the Basic profile was driving the internal LUTs (except for the config screen that let you choose Hardware config) but when I later ran Multiprofiler, there was a discrepancy between the screen luminance values and there was no pre-defined Mode like when SVII does it's thing.
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HI Will.
I have a question I have been trying to get an answer to for a really long time. I keep reading that the PA series is very different in Europe and it's kinda confusing me a lot ...
I bought a PA-241W in France last year. As you might know, here, the PA models come in two categories, as they are also sold under the spectraview reference brand for more money, with a screenhood and the NEC puck and a somewhat obscure statement from NEC that the reference screens have been hand picked by NEC.
Now, doing some research I have come to read many places that there is strictly nothing different with the hardware of both models and the seller confirmed that to me but I also read somewhere that only the reference model allowed for hardware calibration and the other PA ( mine ) only softwear.
To be honest it all seems very obscure to me and I was wondering if you could tell me what really is the difference.
Also, I am about the buy a puck and am leaning towards the i1Display Pro, the SpectraSensor Pro Color Calibration Sensor
and the colormunki DISPLAY. Will the colormunki DISPLAY work with spectraview2 or does just the i1Display Pro and colormunki photo and design will work?
Thank you!
LPR
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All PA models are supported by MultiProfiler (http://www.necdisplay.com/support-and-services/multi-profiler/downloads) so you might give that a shot. On my PA241W that's what I'm using.
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Yes I have that but is multiprofiler doing a hardware calibration on the PA?
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no. MP doesn't do any hardware (puck) based calibration but it does modify the internals of the
display so you're halfway there.
Yes I have that but is multiprofiler doing a hardware calibration on the PA?
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you can check the manual for SVII software but I'm 99% sure they do NOT support the ColorMunki Display.
HI Will.
I have a question I have been trying to get an answer to for a really long time. I keep reading that the PA series is very different in Europe and it's kinda confusing me a lot ...
I bought a PA-241W in France last year. As you might know, here, the PA models come in two categories, as they are also sold under the spectraview reference brand for more money, with a screenhood and the NEC puck and a somewhat obscure statement from NEC that the reference screens have been hand picked by NEC.
Now, doing some research I have come to read many places that there is strictly nothing different with the hardware of both models and the seller confirmed that to me but I also read somewhere that only the reference model allowed for hardware calibration and the other PA ( mine ) only softwear.
To be honest it all seems very obscure to me and I was wondering if you could tell me what really is the difference.
Also, I am about the buy a puck and am leaning towards the i1Display Pro, the SpectraSensor Pro Color Calibration Sensor
and the colormunki DISPLAY. Will the colormunki DISPLAY work with spectraview2 or does just the i1Display Pro and colormunki photo and design will work?
Thank you!
LPR
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Will the colormunki DISPLAY work with spectraview2 or does just the i1Display Pro and colormunki photo and design will work?
The ColorMunki Display is not supported by SpectraView. This is a limitation imposed by X-Rite.
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To be honest it all seems very obscure to me and I was wondering if you could tell me what really is the difference.
I can't really speak on behalf of NEC Europe, however the display hardware is identical. The difference is with the overall package of monitor, certification, hood, software, and extra levels of support aimed at the European market.
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Ah, so that is unlike the older i1D2 SV bundle situation where it seemed like the puck had different firmware that contained different matrices that were tuned to the NEC display
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Ah, so that is unlike the older i1D2 SV bundle situation where it seemed like the puck had different firmware that contained different matrices that were tuned to the NEC display
Howard, Will can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't think the colorimeter is at issue here. That model of colorimeter is custom-tuned for this display - that's the whole point, and would be so regardless of whether the user is in Europe or North America. It's the profile creation software that differs.
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I was reacting to Will's statement:
I can't really speak on behalf of NEC Europe, however the display hardware is identical
Since it was shown that the NEC SV i1D2 'version' didn't perform well on non-NEC displays.
Just trying to minimize the # of pucks and overall cost where possible. If the new i1DPro
does perform as well on NEC's as non-NEC's, that's a big win
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Just to clarify .
Spoke to NEC europe technicians.
The PA series sold in europe all support spectravew II for hardware calibration , it just isn't SOLD here but if you buy it in the states it works fine.
The Munki Dispay indeed is NOT recognized by spectraview II due to Xrite's marketing strategies even though it is identical to the 1display pro which is.
:)
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Newbie to CM and brand new owner of PA271W and SpectraSensor Pro and SpectraView II, reporting.
This combination's calibration process seems to be dead simple. After reading various color management books and fora, and getting a grasp of how complex the subject can be, I was pleasantly surprised by the straightforward calibration process. +1 for user friendliness at beginners' level.