Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: andreagenor on January 08, 2012, 01:10:33 am
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Hi, I'm thinking of buying a new generator and would like other opinions.
I see two options, first Broncolor Senso A4 2400 and second Profoto D4 2400.
What would be the best option?
Sorry my English!
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Hello,
The first thing is to consider in purchasing a new generator is the company you are thinking of dealing with especially the after sales servicing and if they have loan generators available in case yours needs to be repair.
I have been using Bowens generators now for 27 years and can say they are very reliable and also a lot cheaper than Broncolor and Profoto. Also Bowens have a new 2400 watt pack coming out in the first 1/4 of this year.
Another brand which has a very good reputation is Elinchrom. If I had to start a fresh with a new lighting system Elinchrom would be my first choice.
Cheers
Simon
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Depends on where you are located.
Europe seems on equal with Broncolor, the U.S. (especially in rental) is more profoto.
It also depends on how much you want to expand.
First do yourself a favor and rent both sets, or find a dealer that will toss in the rental once you make a purchase.
I don't know about Broncolor but Profoto has a different recycle rate on European current vs. U.S.
Also profo's D4's have a heavy draw on the mains, so if you work location that is something to consider.
They are all very good, both companies are top of the line, though I'd also look at less costly versions like the profoto monoblocks or their Acute series.
Now if you plan to move to continuous light, Bron has Kobald and most of the fixtures are interchangeable on their HMI's.
Profoto also has HMI's but the fans run while shooting which can be an issue with sound.
If I wanted to continue with profto HMI's I'd go k5600 which are more robust and the fixures match profoto.
Once again, test them in what you do, what you need and think about expansion.
Personally I don't think any light head with a standard reflector is prettier than profoto with the frosted cap, but I have both profoto flash and Broncolor HMI's and both are excellent.
IMO
BC
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I tested Bron and Pro together with their representatives to see which was the most color-stabil.
Bron was clearly the best. But thats just one of he issues to consider.
On the other side I feel Pro is a bit more rubust.
Henrik
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Profoto all the way. I've used them all my professional life without as much as a hiccup. There's a reason they dominate the rental-market, they're built like tanks and they just keep working year after year.
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I'm using Broncolor equipment for 35 years, sometimes in very complex circumstances, often with the need for very high accuracy (I'm a multishoot-addict). No major problems, this is the top. So, I do not need to know if the others are good! In addition, the service of the Belgian importer (Hotz) is impeccable.
Currently, I use every day 8 power packs and 15 lampheads or lightboxes. Everything works fine.
PdF
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I was in exactly the same position last year with the choice being, Scoro, D4 or Pro8A. Eventually I went with the D4.
The D4 comes very close to the Scoro with color stability (I do a lot of multishot too) where the Scoro has the ability to vary the color temp actually overall the Scoro just had a tad more options and possibilitie but this wasn't something that is absolutely necessary to me.
Considering I found both Bron as well as Profoto in many quality areas pretty equal it came down to resale value, rental possibilities & second hand availability. It also helped I could get a second hand D4 with some acute heads which after upgrading to an Air version came at around 50% of the price of new. Try finding new 2nd hand Broncolor equipment.
Another consideration over here was that Profoto is very well supported where as the Broncolor dealer just went belly up. I could have used both and I am pretty sure I would have been equally happy :)
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Hi, I'm thinking of buying a new generator and would like other opinions.
I see two options, first Broncolor Senso A4 2400 and second Profoto D4 2400.
What would be the best option?
It's all about repairs. Both brands will provide quality lighting and accessories for modifying that light, but the time will come when the pack you bought will need repair or maintenance. Which brand will provide you with the best after-sales service?
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Simon, There isn't Elinchrom and Bowens in Brazil.
bcooter, I'm in Brazil, here there are only one Broncolor and Profoto seller here, end there are others national brands like Atek that I use today. www.atek.com.br
I don't want continuous light.
The service for me is less important because the two company are so good support here, i find it is because there are only two here.
My questions are more technical.
I like Broncolor Scoro because appears for me more complex and settable and i like this control.
I like to use many light points and D4 appears cool with your four lamp sockets.
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I like to use many light points and D4 appears cool with your four lamp sockets.
D4's 4 lamp sockets are a bit too many (overkill), unless you use them mainly for table shots (I do).
In this case the somewhat short head cable length is ok, because you don't place the heads at long distance between them around a table.
But for people shots or larger sets I've found that I can barely fill 2 or 3 sockets, otherwise the short cable is keeping the heads too close one to another. In this cases I would stick with some pro7s or 7a.
Although, 4 sockets are more than fine if you're planning to use multiple sockets heads, as the twin head, ore some strip lights (they tend to use two or three flash lamps, i.e. sockets per "head").
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I understand and I was really thinking to buy two power packs and many heads. i.e If I buy profoto D4 I will buy 8 heads.
Anyway there are extension cords and with two packs I think that will work.
Today I do with one power pack 1200w/s + 3 times 200w/s monolight.
The actual power pack is good, but the control is not precise, there aren't label in switch that indicate what power you are using.
Worse, the monolight only have 1/1, 1/2 power.
http://atek.com.br/paginas/produtos/pop_up.php?id=388
Other thing, I want more power too, because about less than one year I switch Canon to Mamiya and I'm fighting with shorter focusing.
I don't know If I'm still using wrong lens, but when I shoot products I want all product sharpen but normally my lights can't do power for I using f22 or f32, and I think that with 2400w/s I can do.
I can't explain in English all the problems I'm facing with this world change.
Sorry my bad English, the google translate is help me.
:)
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http://vimeo.com/32792549
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http://vimeo.com/32792549
This video was done by BronImaging. Do I smell bias here? I have shot water with my Pro7a and even older Pro6 packs and it was pin sharp, Pro8 should be even better in this regard.
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This video was done by BronImaging. Do I smell bias here? I have shot water with my Pro7a and even older Pro6 packs and it was pin sharp, Pro8 should be even better in this regard.
+1
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Another comparison review: http://biwastudios.blogspot.com/2010/02/broncolor-scoroa4-vs-profoto-8a.html
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Another comparison review: http://biwastudios.blogspot.com/2010/02/broncolor-scoroa4-vs-profoto-8a.html
I'd actually recommend reading the other review linked at the end of your link too, it touches on many more aspects and some of them are far more important in my mind. Here's a couple that stood out to me...
"In use, we’d have to give the Profoto pack major points for speed and ease of use - both in actual controls and in intuitive use. Throughout the testing, every time we needed to change the settings on the packs, we simply changed the Profoto to what we needed. The Broncolor was always a matter of sitting down, reading through the menu and trying to figure out if you were doing what you actually wanted to do."
"And the fan noise on the Broncolor heads is not only loud, but it has an annoying pitch. Much of this, like the controls on a camera, you can get used to. However, working with lighting is a little different than working with a camera during a shoot. The lighting system is best when it’s invisible. There’s enough to worry about on a set without having to deal with things like tangled cords, annoying fans, and weird connectors. When I am working with a system for a few hours and feel a sense of relief when I turn the fans off, I know that there’s something wrong."
"This is a very important performance difference in any shooting that requires some horsepower. Sets, room shots, people, dancers, medium-scale explosions - you get the idea. If you’re looking for astoundingly crisp, frozen action of tabletop subjects where you can move the lights in and run them at minimum power and still retain decent depth of field, you’re probably going to want the Broncolor. If you have something bigger where you need more light, more depth of field and still need to try to freeze action, then the Profoto is going to give you noticeably better results."
"The Broncolor system has remarkable color accuracy within one small piece of the test range, in this case, ironically, at the highest power. It holds the place of both the highest accuracy and consistency, and the lowest when shot with the Color Control turned off. The Profoto system has a fairly consistent margin of error throughout its power range. It’s interesting that these conclusions run parallel to what we saw in the duration testing. One system, the Broncolor, is quite remarkable within some fairly narrow parameters, and the other, the Profoto, has a more generalized, more consistent performance throughout its working range."
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Of course! I assumed it would read after the first review.
Here is the link if anyone missed it: http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S.html
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Yep, I read both reviews when I was about the choose between the Bron en Profoto too. To be honest I already chose the Profoto before.
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I use a d4 for tabletop food stuff, often all sockets filled. for me the reasons not to go for bron is my dislike of push buttons for incremental settings and, much more important, with the scoro i can't switch the individual model lights on or off from the pack, a feature i use constantly. When i tried the Scoro for a couple of days my assistant told me he would quit if i kept on sending him around the set to swich the bron model lights off by the head.
with both makes it is deeply annoying how much they charge for simple accessories, at least with Bron it seem to be genuine, most Profoto stuff is just relabled (like Bacht or Bowens) with price doubled or tripled.
two lightformers by Bron still spark my envy: the satellite dish and the Flooter. there is no real profoto substitute for that.
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You can easely mount a profoto torch in a Satelite ( if you are a bit of a handyman.... or knows one :-)
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Can anyone show me some examples of satellite dish? I'm curious and I didn't find any at a quick google search.
Thanks.
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http://www.google.be/search?q=broncolor+satellite&hl=nl&client=safari&pwst=1&rls=en&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=nVgLT6y4I9Go8QORutgK&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBEQ_AUoAQ&biw=2316&bih=1273
;) :) :D ;D
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:-[ Sorry, I meant "examples of satellite dish ILLUMINATION" i.e. how does an actual photo shot/lighten WITH a Satellite Dish looks like.
Thanks, Peter ;)
later edit:
ok, got something in the broncolor brochure.
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geesbert, Your information was very interesting, because I do many product shoot in tabletop, but at the same time I do people in studio and on location.
I know that, there aren't perfect product for all situations, but all informations and experiences is good for my decision.
I didn't know that Bron Scoro can't individual model light in power pack, its is no pratical really.
ctz, look this http://vimeo.com/31853135 (http://vimeo.com/31853135)
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ctz, look this http://vimeo.com/31853135 (http://vimeo.com/31853135)
thanks!
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geesbert, Your information was very interesting, because I do many product shoot in tabletop, but at the same time I do people in studio and on location.
I know that, there aren't perfect product for all situations, but all informations and experiences is good for my decision.
I didn't know that Bron Scoro can't individual model light in power pack, its is no pratical really.
ctz, look this http://vimeo.com/31853135 (http://vimeo.com/31853135)
Hi Andreagenor,
this has been covered before, and it is simply wrong: Broncolor Scoro can of course switch every lampsocket on and off seperately by simply pressing a dedicated button for every outlet, no idea where this nonsense comes from. I have been working with both, profoto and bron and I often use (and never want to miss) those special features of the grafit / scoro packs. You can have frosted domes for bron heads as well, lighting quality depends how you use your equipment, not which brand you use. Both brands have their specific pros and cons.
In your original query you asked about the senso, not the scoro, that´s a whole different story...
Regarding flash duration differences between profoto and bron, there were a lot of open questions in that thread about the (profoto-biased) h2h test, my personal experience meets those from the biwa blog.
Cheers, Ulf
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UlfKrentz, I really asked about the Senso, but after I see Senso features and it is more like Acute2R.
I use Mamiya with Leaf Aptus and I no need Ultra Fast charging time, because my camera is read about 1.7 second... But I want control.
Profoto D4 appears cool for me because I want use it in many situations like tabletop, people in studio and on location too.
I like the four lamp sockets and individual control.
The same way as Broncolor Scoro... is so cool.
The pricing is the question now, because D4 is about $7,587.00 without heads and Broncolor Scoro A4 non "S" Price:$10,036.50
With this difference I can buy 3 D4 heads
This is a lot of money here and in Brazil I will pay 77% over this price with import tax
I really I don't know what I do. :)
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snip
I really I don't know what I do. :)
Hi, the problem with both, senso and D4 is you both don´t buy in the high end line of the brands, so if you like to upgrade you´ll have to buy new heads as well. Hard to give any advice, especially with that amount of money involved. It all depends on your workflow and its future development.
What is not considered important right now might be essential in a few months. Try to do a hands on test, rent some stuff and work with it, if you really want control, you will probably have to bite the bullit and also go the bron route with grafit or scoro packs. We never regretted investing in this system.
Cheers, Ulf
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Not necessarily so. The D4 can take every head the Pro8Air can AND it can take the heads meant for the cheaper Acutes too. You can even mix them (though you have to be a bit careful with this) in 1 pack. If you plan on getting a Pro8Air eventually just buy the ProHeads right away and not the Acutes.
It can be even upgraded to the Air version. The only downside I found is that the D4Air can only be remotely used with the Profoto Studio 3 software and not the much better Profoto Studio AIR software.
The D4 is also slower, certainly when you are working full power. It has also a longer flash duration but still pretty good though.
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Yes ok, of course, but the OP was thinking of buying "D4" heads. This problem also did not apply to bron before they introduced the senso packs and heads :o Quite a change and definitely something to be aware of!
Cheers, Ulf
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Hi Andreagenor,
this has been covered before, and it is simply wrong: Broncolor Scoro can of course switch every lampsocket on and off seperately by simply pressing a dedicated button for every outlet, no idea where this nonsense comes from. I have been working with both, profoto and bron and I often use (and never want to miss) those special features of the grafit / scoro packs. You can have frosted domes for bron heads as well, lighting quality depends how you use your equipment, not which brand you use. Both brands have their specific pros and cons.
In your original query you asked about the senso, not the scoro, that´s a whole different story...
Regarding flash duration differences between profoto and bron, there were a lot of open questions in that thread about the (profoto-biased) h2h test, my personal experience meets those from the biwa blog.
Cheers, Ulf
of course you can switch off the individual heads, but you cannot switch off individual model lights from the pack while keeping the flash on. it is either all model lights on or off. individual model lights have can be switched off by a small switch on the head, but not on the pack. This is a feature I am using constantly with my D4, because I use a lot of mirrors to bounce back my lights, so I have to see exactly what every single head is doing.
(http://www.randlkofer.com/fotos/07_vita/selfportrait.jpg)
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Of course! I assumed it would read after the first review.
Here is the link if anyone missed it: http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S.html
THIS IS ONE OF THE WORST REVIEWS I HAVE EVER SEEN! Plesae do not refer people to that review.
In many cases, they are just plain wrong. For example:
"The Broncolor reflectors take the more expensive, and somewhat non-standard 12” grid spots" WRONG
This is not true at all. The standard P70 reflector uses an 8" grid, which they say the Profoto also uses. I use speedotron grids in my reflectors that I buy used at $5 a piece, rather than the Bron or Profoto grids, which are about $100 each new or used.
"The Broncolor heads come in two varieties: a 3200 Joule and a 1600 Joule head. You never really want to run a 1600 with 3200 Joules of power. It gets very dramatic. This is not only inconvenient, but dangerous…and unnecessary." WRONG
The Broncolor power pack knows what the maximum power is that a head will take. They are coded. If you plug a 1600 Ws head into a 3200 Ws pack, IT WILL NOT LET YOU dial in 3200 Ws to that head!
The 1600 Ws tubes and protecting glass are cheaper than the 3200 Ws. So Bron offers the customer an option of a cheaper alternative ...
And that seems to be the problem with this review at every point. In tehir lack of familiarity, they choose that which is simpler on first blush, not necessarily the solution that offers a better option in the long run. And because they don't know/undertstand the Bron system beyond the most superficial level, they make mistaken assumptions, menu settings, and preferences at each step of the review!
I don't feel like taking the time to go through their review in detail right now. But when I first read it perhaps a year ago, I found fault with their assumptions, decfision making, and recommendations at every step of the review.
Now I think Profoto is a great system, as is Broncolor. I have used both, as well as Speedotron, Dynalite, Norman, and others.
Although I am currently using Broncolor, for a US photopgrapher I think that in many instances Profoto may be a better choice because of their market penetration here (Broncolor has not marketed an entry level system like the Acute to get photogs started with, and continuing to use, their system, a big, big mistake in my mind.)
But please be careful with the comparison reviews you find online. In many of theses reviews, like the PDN comparison bewteen the two packs, you have reletively inexperienced and even naive (non-studio photogs using a pack system for the first time!) people conducting the review.
Best,
Michael
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I see two options, first Broncolor Senso A4 2400 and second Profoto D4 2400.
Personally, whichever yopu buy, I would buy used. My rule of thumb is to expect to pay about 50% of the new price for lightly used equipment in Excellent+ condition. I very, very rarely buy new Broncolor equipment. If you buy used equipment at a good price, you can usually resell it later at near the cost you paid, reducing your cost of ownership by a huge amount!
You are unlikely to find the Senso available used, because it is so new. But you might look at other mid-tier Broncolor products that are more comparable to the D4, as the Senso is Bron's entry level pack, more like the Profoto Acute.
If flash duration is not a top priority, Broncolor Topas packs with 2 fully asynchronous channels and LCD adjustments in .1 stop over a 6.7 to 7.5 stop range are a great basic pack. The Topas A2 are about 6 kilo, very light and portable for location use. They are a delight to use. I love them as my daily go-to packs!
The Topas A2 1600 Ws packs are selling used in the $1,200 range (I sold one like that with only 7,500 pops/exposures on it), the Topas A4 3200 Ws for around $1,600 US.
The Broncolor Verso does have fairly short flash duration. It also makes an excellent studio or battery operated location unit. I sold a Verso A2 1200 Ws pack with RFS for around $3,500. Battery packs are around $600. A bit more for the Verso A4 2400 Ws.
The Broncolor Grafit A4 RFS have been selling between $3,500 to $5,000 US. Less for an A2 or a non-RFS version.
One Broncolor pack that I still use daily has 290,000 pops on it. Another that I got from a car studio has 880,000+ pops. So something with under 10,000 pops is still almost brand new!
The Picolites haeds are small, portable heads about the size of a can of soda. They sell used for $450 to $550. The Unilite are a beautiful in bewteen size. Solid metal body. Harder to find used, but about $800 range used. The Pulso G2 and G4 are a bit over $1,000 used.
The older Pulso run around $550 to $650 used, the Primo about $450.
Good luck!
Best, Michael
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But please be careful with the comparison reviews you find online. In many of theses reviews [...] you have reletively inexperienced and even naive (non-studio photogs using a pack system for the first time!) people conducting the review.
+1!
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FWIW, I also think that original review posted that was pro-Bron was also a little limited and one sided.
The truth is that the technology here is incredibly sophisticated and complex. This is an interesting example from the Bron USA blog about what is actually going on with short flash duration.
Quite one-sided again in this case, but the complexity of the technology/engineering is fascinating!!
http://blog.bronimaging.com/2010/04/profoto-not-working-cancel-the-shoot-no-call-broncolor-instead/
"Rental Shop Manager: Nothing special, just an environmental portrait, but the wind is blowing and the wardrobe is getting blurred. They thought it was their lens or digital back, but we swapped that out and tested the cameras without the strobes and the camera is good. It is definitely the lights.
BIG Customer Support: Yes, it’s the lights. Profoto 8a packs use a technology that they call PiPE. PiPE stands for Pre ignition Plasma Establishing. What it means is that they use a preflash to warm up the gasses in the flash tube so that they can get a short flash duration…but the problem is that the pre-flash actually affects the exposure and causes the “blur” which normally shows itself as a ghost second image."
OK, one sided propaganda for sure! But I remember one comparison review of the Pro 8A and Scoro that started out "I haven't ever used studio packs before ..." And the PDN one that I mentioned spent about 1/3 of the review talking about superficial things - color of the packs, etc. Cant find it without my subscription - if anyone can quote, I just remember it was god-awful for a pro mag!
Cheers! Michael
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This is a pretty good review of the Senso. They also didn't understand a few things, per their notes, but it looks like they corrected them after talking with Bron:
http://photoartsmonthly.com/blog/2011/04/15/introduction-the-broncolor-senso-a2/
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BTW, I am now in the situation where I am pondering whether to get some Proheads instead of the Acutes for my D4 (eventually I know I will be getting a Pro8Air).
Does anyone know what the differences are between the Acute heads and the Proheads? Are the Proheads significantly sturdier and stronger? (they are the same size, weight & dimensions. Everything appears to be the same besides the locking handle).
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BTW, I am now in the situation where I am pondering whether to get some Proheads instead of the Acutes for my D4 (eventually I know I will be getting a Pro8Air).
Does anyone know what the differences are between the Acute heads and the Proheads? Are the Proheads significantly sturdier and stronger? (they are the same size, weight & dimensions. Everything appears to be the same besides the locking handle).
Hi Dustbak,
The ProHeads are designed to work with the higher voltage of Pro6 freeze / Pro7 / Pro8. AFAIK thats´s why you cannot use the Acute Heads.
...and that´s what I was talking about, might not be cheap...
The higher voltage is key to the shorter flash duration especially when using high power output. If you are looking for a short flash duration you may also consider the use of twin tube heads (also with the D4).
HTH, Cheers, Ulf
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of course you can switch off the individual heads, but you cannot switch off individual model lights from the pack while keeping the flash on. it is either all model lights on or off. individual model lights have can be switched off by a small switch on the head, but not on the pack. This is a feature I am using constantly with my D4, because I use a lot of mirrors to bounce back my lights, so I have to see exactly what every single head is doing.
(http://www.randlkofer.com/fotos/07_vita/selfportrait.jpg)
I hope I´m wrong? You cannot completely switch off a single outlet with the D4? This is something we frequently need and use, turn off a specific outlet (flash and modelling light) without disconnecting the lamp base.
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Thx Ulf, I was also hoping the Proheads are a but sturdier than the Acutes. Yes, these heads are not particularly cheap but what is.
I think Geesbert meant to say you cannot do so with the Broncolor. I know you can with the D4. With my D4Air I can do it even wireless.
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I try to get it right now: With the D4 you can switch on and off the flash function of every single head attached, Aditionally you can switch on or off the model light of every single head.
with the scoro, every head can be switched on individually, but the model light can only be switched on or off together.
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I try to get it right now: With the D4 you can switch on and off the flash function of every single head attached, Aditionally you can switch on or off the model light of every single head.
with the scoro, every head can be switched on individually, but the model light can only be switched on or off together.
Thank you Geesbert,
I took a short look in the user manual and had not found the function of separately turning both off, but like I already supposed this obviously was my fault. Anyway, I still don´t see this additional feature missing for our work, YMMV. What´s often used here and was the reason for investing into the bron system is the color control / flash duration alteration. Both brands have excellent packs.
@Dustbak
we own (broncolor adapted) ProHeads and I think they are very well made and sturdy, they have a great form factor, cable length feels a bit short though.
Cheers, Ulf