Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => But is it Art? => Topic started by: Rob C on January 04, 2012, 11:13:13 AM

Title: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 04, 2012, 11:13:13 AM
We've often had the argument about whether one can be taught how to be an artist and not simply a technician.

Now dig this:

"He told Radio Times: I used to point out at art school, you can teach the craft, its the poetry you cant teach. But now they try to teach the poetry and not the craft. "

I quote David Hockney.

Rob C

Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: RSL on January 04, 2012, 11:17:31 AM
That's been going on for a long time, Rob. I remember some of the crap I used to see when my wife had her gallery. A lot of the kids who'd bring stuff in had learned from their teachers that the intent was the thing and craft was unnecessary. It's all part of the idea that performance doesn't matter as long as you feel good about yourself.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: luxborealis on January 04, 2012, 11:50:50 AM
Christian Barr once said, "Art can't deny craft, but refuses to acknowledge it. In the end they are still brothers."

Dawn Detarando: "I don't see craft as something you make, but rather something you need to achieve good art."

Any monkey can put paint to paper, but is it art? Probably not since art is self-expression and for self-expression you need self-awareness. Both good craft and self-awareness brings you closer to producing art but are not guarentees.

There is a lot of crap out there that some people believe is art and some art critiques call art. I suppose "Art is in the eye of the beholder."

Can you have art without craft? Wow - impossible to say really as some people have inherent skills in art without having "learned" their craft. Perhaps these are the true artists.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: RSL on January 04, 2012, 12:04:46 PM
Ooohhh... Let's try to define art.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: fotometria gr on January 04, 2012, 12:34:04 PM
Christian Barr once said, "Art can't deny craft, but refuses to acknowledge it. In the end they are still brothers."

Dawn Detarando: "I don't see craft as something you make, but rather something you need to achieve good art."

Any monkey can put paint to paper, but is it art? Probably not since art is self-expression and for self-expression you need self-awareness. Both good craft and self-awareness brings you closer to producing art but are not guarentees.

There is a lot of crap out there that some people believe is art and some art critiques call art. I suppose "Art is in the eye of the beholder."

Can you have art without craft? Wow - impossible to say really as some people have inherent skills in art without having "learned" their craft. Perhaps these are the true artists.
I suppose that a fundamental of art is visualization, there are no painters that do not visualize their paintings before they start them or authors that don't visualize the story before they start writing, A.Adams refers extensively in his books on it and C.Bresson used to say that "the real photographer "sees" in his mind the print before he even hits the shutter", I guess that the values of society is dropping all the time and thus their art criteria/codes, but especially in photography, where to some its enough to hit a button and declare them shelves as artists, its easier to fool the one that receives the outcome. I would agree that there is no way to visualize the print with no technical background and thus create art, but I would also agree that some people (only a few in my experience) do have the technical knowledge AND THE TALENT TO EXPAND/BUILT ON IT, but lack the scientific knowledge to talk about it. I guess that the opposite is at the moment the vast majority of "photographers" especially as cameras appeal a lot to what I call "Gadget freaks" and industry bases a good margin of its sales to them. For example, did you notice the pictures that won NPCI last year? .....Jesus! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 04, 2012, 12:35:22 PM
Ooohhh... Let's try to define art.

Ok, I'll bite: art, like beauty, is in the eye of the beer holder. ;)
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: fotometria gr on January 04, 2012, 12:59:28 PM
Ooohhh... Let's try to define art.
OK! ...You first, ...I'll follow later, promise!  :) Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: RSL on January 04, 2012, 03:46:36 PM
You nailed it, Slobodan, and in just eleven words. That kind of verbal economy is art at its apogee.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: fotometria gr on January 04, 2012, 04:16:32 PM
We've often had the argument about whether one can be taught how to be an artist and not simply a technician.

Now dig this:

"He told Radio Times: I used to point out at art school, you can teach the craft, its the poetry you cant teach. But now they try to teach the poetry and not the craft. "

I quote David Hockney.

Rob C


Is your opinion that "poetry" can be taught Rob? Or the old method of teaching the craft and let the instinct catch from there is enough? Mine is that it should be the craft, but since poetry can't be taught, approaching/decoding of art should be discussed (not taught) thus helping the student to advance from there. Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 04, 2012, 04:59:07 PM
My point of view is rather too well understood here, Theo.

I do believe that it is possible to self-educate on camera use; that it is easier/quicker to be taught; that Photoshop skills should be taught along with basic art in schools.

I do not believe that anyone can teach anyone else how to be an artist. I believe that in photography, self-education of the eye and mind is the only way it works, and that is done by looking at all the work one possibly can, which is the natural way of anyone sufficiently interested in photography or paint. It's why one is aware of either discipline to the extent that making it a life has any attraction in the first place. I think there are those photographers who never much looked at other's work and simply did it right out of the egg; I've never met one.

Looking at all that work does two things: it reveals to one the field(s) of personal interest; it gives one benchmarks against which to measure one's own progress. It does not, however, give anyone any business sense, which is perhaps as important a quality as any of the others in the mix! In practice, maybe it's the greatest of them all.

Rob C
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 04, 2012, 05:03:55 PM
Ok, I'll bite: art, like beauty, is in the eye of the beer holder. ;)


Like somebody said: I've never gone to bed with an ugly woman, but I've sure woken up beside many!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: WalterEG on January 04, 2012, 05:25:48 PM
Art gives my mind a hard-on.

Keith,

Perhaps you could share your brand of Beta-Blockers with Rob.

Comes a time in a man's personal evolution that a hard-on anywhere is a welcome talisman of former youth.

Cheers,

W
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: fotometria gr on January 04, 2012, 05:38:45 PM
My point of view is rather too well understood here, Theo.

I do believe that it is possible to self-educate on camera use; that it is easier/quicker to be taught; that Photoshop skills should be taught along with basic art in schools.

I do not believe that anyone can teach anyone else how to be an artist. I believe that in photography, self-education of the eye and mind is the only way it works, and that is done by looking at all the work one possibly can, which is the natural way of anyone sufficiently interested in photography or paint. It's why one is aware of either discipline to the extent that making it a life has any attraction in the first place. I think there are those photographers who never much looked at other's work and simply did it right out of the egg; I've never met one.

Looking at all that work does two things: it reveals to one the field(s) of personal interest; it gives one benchmarks against which to measure one's own progress. It does not, however, give anyone any business sense, which is perhaps as important a quality as any of the others in the mix! In practice, maybe it's the greatest of them all.

Rob C
Couldn't agree more... So, can to your opinion a teacher pass the reception of art to a possible artist? I mean surely none can teach somebody else to be an artist as you correctly state, but can't he help the "student" to decode/understand/approach existing art, thus helping him possibly optimize his abilities? Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 P.S. I should have said, I hate being called Theo..., please try to avoid that.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: RSL on January 04, 2012, 07:27:58 PM
Couldn't agree more... So, can to your opinion a teacher pass the reception of art to a possible artist? I mean surely none can teach somebody else to be an artist as you correctly state, but can't he help the "student" to decode/understand/approach existing art, thus helping him possibly optimize his abilities? Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 P.S. I should have said, I hate being called Theo..., please try to avoid that.

So what shall we call you? Metria?

Yes, a teacher can "pass the reception of art" to a student. When I was at University of Michigan in 1950 and 51, I was lucky enough to have an English literature professor who, somehow, turned me on to poetry in a big way. I suddenly started spending most of my time in the men's union writing poetry, which didn't do much for my standing in my other classes, but got me published a couple times, while I was still 19, in one of the "little" magazines common in those days. I wrote poetry for decades after that and was published many times in various "little" magazines. That professor opened my life to something really glorious. I still can recite "Prufrock" from memory. I owe that man a lot.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 05, 2012, 04:22:30 AM
Keith,

Perhaps you could share your brand of Beta-Blockers with Rob.

Comes a time in a man's personal evolution that a hard-on anywhere is a welcome talisman of former youth.

Cheers,

W




Doubt that changing brands helps now its academic at the very best.

Three maxims that come with age:

1.  never pass a toilet;
2.  never trust a fart;
3.  never waste a woodie, even if youre alone.

Now you see why beta-blockers are so popular: keep you on the right side of the law in public places. However, if Heff's Playboy Philosophy was correct, you may not be quite so safe even at home in certain States of the Union.

Rob C
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: fotometria gr on January 05, 2012, 07:25:27 AM
So what shall we call you? Metria?

Yes, a teacher can "pass the reception of art" to a student. When I was at University of Michigan in 1950 and 51, I was lucky enough to have an English literature professor who, somehow, turned me on to poetry in a big way. I suddenly started spending most of my time in the men's union writing poetry, which didn't do much for my standing in my other classes, but got me published a couple times, while I was still 19, in one of the "little" magazines common in those days. I wrote poetry for decades after that and was published many times in various "little" magazines. That professor opened my life to something really glorious. I still can recite "Prufrock" from memory. I owe that man a lot.
Theodoros will do.
Could this have happened with any teacher? What I was trying to reach at, is that technic can be taught by many teachers, craft by none, but there are a few teachers, the ones that have that special "eye" who can "see" the talent that exists (even if the student hasn't realized it) and on the other hand the "real" knowledge on the subject that allows them to influence a possible artist and extract the maximum out of him by helping him to understand, decode and hence advance, from where the predecessors have stopped. Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 05, 2012, 12:53:11 PM
Ooohhh... Let's try to define art.

'What strange psyche believes that two emails, printed out, then scrunched up, are important in any way? The creator of that masterpiece looked genuinely shocked when he was told that it was (literally) rubbish. He left, head down, cradling the screwed-up paper lovingly in his hands. ... The judges were kinder to some of the other entries one thought the hanging whistle was "simple, radical, with strong sexual connotations". There was, however, a wonderful moment when an artist stumbling to explain the merit of some chairs he'd thrown on the floor was told: "This is the biggest load of bull---- I've ever heard." And that from Tracey Emin!

As Emin well knows, though, the question of what makes art, and what makes good art, has been around from Duchamp's urinal to Hirst's pickled shark. And there's a single answer an answer that keeps art colleges going, keeps students believing that they really will change the world one day. Why is it art? Because I say so.'

Art? Even Tracey Emin said it was rubbish  (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/6649663/Art-Even-Tracey-Emin-said-it-was-rubbish.html)


'Why, I ask, is my unmade bed just an unmade bed and hers is art? "Because you didn't say that yours was art and you didn't feel that it was. I saw it as art and felt that it was. I said that it was and showed that it was. I have transferred what I feel on to someone else looking at it. That's the alchemy. That's the magic. I was the person who had to have the conviction in the first place. If you think about it, is it really worth all those fights and arguments and trauma to defend something that isn't real? No, it's not."'

'I really know what I'm talking about. I'm a brilliant f***ing artist' - Tracey Emin interview (http://www.scotsman.com/news/i_really_know_what_i_m_talking_about_i_m_a_brilliant_f_ing_artist_tracey_emin_interview_1_1434721)
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on January 05, 2012, 02:17:26 PM
I have no trouble defining Art. I know for a fact that it is the nickname of my friend Arthur.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: fotometria gr on January 05, 2012, 02:44:01 PM
'What strange psyche believes that two emails, printed out, then scrunched up, are important in any way? The creator of that masterpiece looked genuinely shocked when he was told that it was (literally) rubbish. He left, head down, cradling the screwed-up paper lovingly in his hands. ... The judges were kinder to some of the other entries one thought the hanging whistle was "simple, radical, with strong sexual connotations". There was, however, a wonderful moment when an artist stumbling to explain the merit of some chairs he'd thrown on the floor was told: "This is the biggest load of bull---- I've ever heard." And that from Tracey Emin!

As Emin well knows, though, the question of what makes art, and what makes good art, has been around from Duchamp's urinal to Hirst's pickled shark. And there's a single answer an answer that keeps art colleges going, keeps students believing that they really will change the world one day. Why is it art? Because I say so.'

Art? Even Tracey Emin said it was rubbish  (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/6649663/Art-Even-Tracey-Emin-said-it-was-rubbish.html)


'Why, I ask, is my unmade bed just an unmade bed and hers is art? "Because you didn't say that yours was art and you didn't feel that it was. I saw it as art and felt that it was. I said that it was and showed that it was. I have transferred what I feel on to someone else looking at it. That's the alchemy. That's the magic. I was the person who had to have the conviction in the first place. If you think about it, is it really worth all those fights and arguments and trauma to defend something that isn't real? No, it's not."'

'I really know what I'm talking about. I'm a brilliant f***ing artist' - Tracey Emin interview (http://www.scotsman.com/news/i_really_know_what_i_m_talking_about_i_m_a_brilliant_f_ing_artist_tracey_emin_interview_1_1434721)
The problems of art with people appreciation of it... defined by artists! Only art can help them find their way and this way is through art,  ...its really a circle. Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 06, 2012, 11:55:45 AM
The problems of art with people appreciation of it... defined by artists! Only art can help them find their way and this way is through art,  ...its really a circle.

Break the circle -

"When David Frost asked Tracy Emin on his TV show why her bed was a work of art, she replied 'Because I say it is'. He did not then ask her, as he could have done, 'But who says you're an artist?' Artists do not, by any means, hold all the cards; they are free to try to be artists, but others are also free to decide for themselves whether they have achieved their goal."

p76 The Eclipse of Art: Tackling the Crisis in Art Today (http://books.google.com/books?id=fuxPAAAAMAAJ)
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: fotometria gr on January 06, 2012, 12:48:59 PM
Break the circle -

"When David Frost asked Tracy Emin on his TV show why her bed was a work of art, she replied 'Because I say it is'. He did not then ask her, as he could have done, 'But who says you're an artist?' Artists do not, by any means, hold all the cards; they are free to try to be artists, but others are also free to decide for themselves whether they have achieved their goal."

p76 The Eclipse of Art: Tackling the Crisis in Art Today (http://books.google.com/books?id=fuxPAAAAMAAJ)
Obviously.., the difference of my comment is that it was a quote on art appreciation from a public that doesn't necessarily consider themselves as artists, nor think of art as important. This is only one part of art crisis, the other being the quality of art that is produced today, but again I don't think that the later can be a discussion through web, ...it does need eye crossing, tobacco and filled glasses between people. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 06, 2012, 01:18:10 PM
Obviously.., the difference of my comment is that it was a quote on art appreciation from a public that doesn't necessarily consider themselves as artists, nor think of art as important. This is only one part of art crisis, the other being the quality of art that is produced today, but again I don't think that the later can be a discussion through web, ...it does need eye crossing, tobacco and filled glasses between people. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr



Yes, but discussing art with too much booze around can be as sterile as the art itself might be.

Such chat is, however, entertaining, and as seems obvious from here on the Internet, everyone is perfectly capable of being his own expert, including myself.

I'm repeatedly struck by the virtually absolute absence of ladies in these discussions; that's a real pity because they do have a very interesting set of alternative views to offer, could they but be bothered. Let's face it: women have a far better colour sense, can do interiors better than most guys I know, and find matching clothes etc. a piece of cake (well, many do if not all).

How sad to lose their contributions here.

Rob C
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: fotometria gr on January 06, 2012, 01:52:38 PM


Yes, but discussing art with too much booze around can be as sterile as the art itself might be.

Such chat is, however, entertaining, and as seems obvious from here on the Internet, everyone is perfectly capable of being his own expert, including myself.

I'm repeatedly struck by the virtually absolute absence of ladies in these discussions; that's a real pity because they do have a very interesting set of alternative views to offer, could they but be bothered. Let's face it: women have a far better colour sense, can do interiors better than most guys I know, and find matching clothes etc. a piece of cake (well, many do if not all).

How sad to lose their contributions here.

Rob C
Nice observation Rob, but again with all these code names you never know. OTOH if you have a look at "Magnum" females are not that many... Maybe photography doesn't suit them as other arts, I don't know the reason, but I suspect that it has to do with the knowledge of technical matters such as aperture or focal length, angles or perspective control and DOF that are involved in the process. In my BEng degree I did in Wales 25 years ago, we had two females in three years of courses, they seem to have very little interest in making pictures but they do have good (better than men IMO) appreciation of good photography and can be excellent judges! Its the same with cinema really, female directors are a very small quantity (again possibly because of the technical issues involved). Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 06, 2012, 02:24:05 PM
... possibly because of the technical issues involved ...

Possibly because of the social issues involved !
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 06, 2012, 02:32:46 PM
Obviously.., the difference of my comment is that it was a quote on art appreciation from a public that doesn't necessarily consider themselves as artists, nor think of art as important.
It's not clear to me what you mean - I think Julian Spalding's point was that "others [who do not consider themselves artists] are also free to decide for themselves whether [those who try to be artists] have achieved their goal [of being artists]."
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: fotometria gr on January 06, 2012, 02:47:11 PM
Possibly because of the social issues involved !
Hmmm..., I don't know..., I'm sure that if it was because of social issues it would apply in other forms of art as well, it doesn't.. does it? Not to that extend anyway! Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: fotometria gr on January 06, 2012, 02:56:44 PM
It's not clear to me what you mean - I think Julian Spalding's point was that "others [who do not consider themselves artists] are also free to decide for themselves whether [those who try to be artists] have achieved their goal [of being artists]."
It may be my English, I haven't practice it for 20 years..., it used to be much better. I think though you may succeed if you try a little..., I try to expand a bit from what you state above. Regards, Theodoros.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 06, 2012, 03:01:50 PM
... if it was because of social issues it would apply in other forms of art as well, it doesn't.. does it?

fwiw Why are there so few? (Creative women: Visual artists, mathematicians, scientists, musicians) (http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10067.aspx)
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: WalterEG on January 06, 2012, 04:32:31 PM
I'm repeatedly struck by the virtually absolute absence of ladies in these discussions; that's a real pity because they do have a very interesting set of alternative views to offer, could they but be bothered.

I shudder at the thought that I am about to make the sweeping generalisation that I am .... but here goes:

Perhaps women just get out and DO and let their work speak for itself rather than sitting around nattering about how it would be if they ever did get out and DO.

I feel I am increasingly in touch with my feminine side and see little, if any, merit in chewing the fat about something which itself is actually a relatively easy and enjoyable pastime - like chattering.

Cheers,

W
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 06, 2012, 06:08:07 PM
fwiw Why are there so few? (Creative women: Visual artists, mathematicians, scientists, musicians) (http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10067.aspx)




It's past midnight, I'm knackered from having fights with the other computer that thinks it's about to die; the best I can do with the link is copy it (done) and read it tomorrow, possibly sending it on to my daughter.

Rob C
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 06, 2012, 06:22:48 PM
... read it tomorrow, possibly sending it on to my daughter.
At your leisure, for your pleasure - it's just an article that Google tripped over and at-a-glance seemed reasonable.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 06, 2012, 06:25:09 PM
... in touch with my feminine side ...
That's just your masculine side insisting that nothing is beyond your understanding :-)
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: DavidJ on January 07, 2012, 12:48:59 PM
Tracey Emin is now Professor of drawing at the Royal Academy!
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: fotometria gr on January 07, 2012, 12:50:58 PM



It's past midnight, I'm knackered from having fights with the other computer that thinks it's about to die; the best I can do with the link is copy it (done) and read it tomorrow, possibly sending it on to my daughter.

Rob C
Hey Rob, I forgot to ask you if the "Beanbag on the back of Landrover technique"  ;) that you suggested on the artist  ??? that found yours inappropriate for the purpose  :-X, would actually also work on a spacecraft when in take off?  ::) IMO you should have suggested LSD, thus stability works with some people, I also gave the thread to my daughter to read..., she still LOLs!  ;D. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: fotometria gr on January 07, 2012, 01:23:52 PM
Tracey Emin is now Professor of drawing at the Royal Academy!
Good! we can now hope that proves to be a good teacher as well. This has nothing to do with the person, but Art appreciation is currently a mess, (getting worst all the time) because of its "leaders" or the "responsible" for its advance! Mind you that by saying "leaders" I don't mean the artists, after all everybody (even if he doesn't know what he is talking about) will remember Picasso, at least for the "Guernica" but I don't know anybody remembering the Professor of the "Spanish or French (Royal or not has to do with the employer) academy" of the times! Actually I don't know anybody that remembers any professor in arts (That is through history), but I do now that Ticiano had a student called Demenicos Theotokopoulos (El Greco), Socrates had a student called Platon and that they where not professors, but were called "Masters" long after they lived, by the future generations. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: sertsa on January 10, 2012, 12:30:32 AM
That's just your masculine side insisting that nothing is beyond your understanding :-)

Best thing I've read in a while!

 ;D
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: LoisWakeman on January 10, 2012, 02:13:42 PM
And you wonder why we don't participate? Sheesh.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 10, 2012, 02:40:15 PM
And you wonder why we don't participate? Sheesh.
Do you have time to spell it out a little more?
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 12, 2012, 12:54:17 PM
Do you have time to spell it out a little more?


I wish you hadn't gone with that; in the action it provides its own answer.

Rob C
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 12, 2012, 06:39:05 PM
I wish you hadn't gone with that; in the action it provides its own answer.

Seems like LoisWakeman did no more than express contempt for newbie sertsa - so I wish for an alternative interpretation that's less ugly than a slap-down.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: sertsa on January 13, 2012, 03:16:52 AM
Not that this is thread going anywhere useful, but didn't realize Lois's reply was to my comment.  Why would there be contempt for the appreciation of somebody recognizing that their personal growth might just be an illusion.  Don't hear a ===woooosh==== over my head, but it may be there.  ;D
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 13, 2012, 03:43:43 AM
Not that this is thread going anywhere useful, but didn't realize Lois's reply was to my comment.  Why would there be contempt for the appreciation of somebody recognizing that their personal growth might just be an illusion.  Don't hear a ===woooosh==== over my head, but it may be there.  ;D



I'd stop looking and listening - I don't think it's flying anywhere near your head...

Rob C
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 13, 2012, 01:09:37 PM
I don't think it's flying anywhere near your head...
Only LoisWakeman knows.

Do you think there's any merit in throwing rocks from the sidelines into a scrum?
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 13, 2012, 03:25:00 PM
Only LoisWakeman knows.

Do you think there's any merit in throwing rocks from the sidelines into a scrum?



Unquestionably; you can knock all of the contestant out and be fair.

Rob C
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 13, 2012, 03:27:14 PM
Unquestionably; you can knock all of the contestant out and be fair.

Where's the merit in throwing rocks from the sidelines?
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 13, 2012, 05:39:34 PM
Where's the merit in throwing rocks from the sidelines?



With luck, they don't bounce right back.

Rob C
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 13, 2012, 06:53:04 PM
Are you guys competing for the weirdest thread exchange of 2012?
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 13, 2012, 07:58:55 PM
No, not the weirdest - just the dullest evasions.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 14, 2012, 04:05:56 AM
No, not the weirdest - just the dullest evasions.


Okay - I award you the prize.

Rob C
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: LoisWakeman on January 18, 2012, 05:48:55 AM
Hi Isaac,

I seem to have stirred up a dust devil here  ???

I think maybe I responded to the wrong post, but someone was wondering why women didn't participate more on aesthetic discussions here, followed by a remark along the lines that perhaps it was the difficulty of the technical aspects. As a science graduate and self-confessed geekess, that really made me bridle.

But in general, the occasional tendency to macho insults and what sometimes seems like deliberate misconstruction as an excuse for rudeness, rather than reasoned discussion, rather puts me off participating more.

I know it is fashionable to be far more abrasive online than one would be in person, but I try to pretend that an online forum is like any other community. Not always successfully, obviously, given the heated reaction to my remark.

Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 18, 2012, 11:08:14 AM
Wouldn't that be an exception that proves the rule? ;)
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: LoisWakeman on January 18, 2012, 12:26:10 PM
I know lots of geeks, of both sexes. Just goes to show how sad I am, I guess. ;)
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 18, 2012, 12:42:36 PM
... perhaps it was the difficulty of the technical aspects. ... that really made me bridle.
I would just ask that, when it's something particular, you click the quote button rather than the reply button, and snip the quote down to the most egregious text, like this -

OTOH if you have a look at "Magnum" females are not that many... Maybe photography doesn't suit them as other arts, I don't know the reason, but I suspect that it has to do with the knowledge of technical matters such as aperture or focal length, angles or perspective control and DOF that are involved in the process.
So what problems jump-right-out?
- Why should "Magnum" be considered a representative sample of photographers?
- Which other arts?
- What is the gender breakdown in those other arts?
We haven't even established that there is a different gender breakdown in photography compared to "other arts", but there's still that rush to explain (what we don't even know exists) using a belittling caricature. [Maybe that wasn't how it was supposed to read, English not always the first language.]

the occasional tendency to macho insults and what sometimes seems like deliberate misconstruction as an excuse for rudeness, rather than reasoned discussion, rather puts me off participating more.
I'm new here - but it does seem to me very much a boy's club, and more than that an old boy's club, with all the negative connotations.

... the heated reaction to my remark.
Storm in a teacup.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 18, 2012, 01:13:37 PM
... I'm new here - but it does seem to me very much a boy's club, and more than that an old boy's club, with all the negative connotations...

Maybe because you are new here? Those of us who've been around a while (old or not) know perfectly well that we welcome and encourage and ask directly for more female participation. And those female photographers who chose to contribute collaboratively rather than combatively are surely aware of the warm and sincere welcome by us, "old boys".
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 18, 2012, 01:19:50 PM
... We haven't even established that there is a different gender breakdown in photography compared to "other arts", but there's still that rush to explain (what we don't even know exists) using a belittling caricature. ...

Gee, Isaac, wasn't it you who posted this link:

fwiw Why are there so few? (Creative women: Visual artists, mathematicians, scientists, musicians) (http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10067.aspx)
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: LoisWakeman on January 18, 2012, 04:40:13 PM
Quote
I would just ask that, when it's something particular, you click the quote button rather than the reply button, and snip the quote down to the most egregious text,

Yeah - not very clever for a supposed geek, was it? I'm more used to forums with proper threading, so get a bit lazy I suppose!   ;)
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 18, 2012, 04:56:22 PM
Gee, Isaac, wasn't it you who posted this link:
Yes, and from your response I get the impression that you haven't read further than the title.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 18, 2012, 04:58:31 PM
Yeah - not very clever for a supposed geek, was it?
I consider it an example of major personal growth that I didn't point that out to you :-)
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 18, 2012, 05:03:13 PM
Yes, and from your response I get the impression that you haven't read further than the title.

Ah, the usual hiding behind quotes and patronizing.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 19, 2012, 01:15:31 PM
Ah, the usual hiding behind quotes and patronizing.
The only words I quoted were the words I was replying to - your words - just as you have quoted my words in your comment.

Gee, Isaac, wasn't it you who posted this link
I read that as sarcasm. The sarcasm suggests that you think there's something about that article which conflicts with those words of mine. But you don't say what in that article you think conflicts with those quoted words of mine, and that leads me to think your comment was solely based on the article title.

You've stopped at sarcasm, you haven't moved the discussion forward.

Here's a quote for you -

But in general, the occasional tendency to macho insults and what sometimes seems like deliberate misconstruction as an excuse for rudeness, rather than reasoned discussion, rather puts me off participating more.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 19, 2012, 02:56:34 PM
Strikes me that Lois is being roped in as a creative consultant: someone called in at the last moment to share the blame. I worked with some of those guys a few times... a lot gave up and went home.

Rob C
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: WalterEG on January 19, 2012, 03:02:33 PM
Ain't dat da troof Rob!
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 19, 2012, 03:38:07 PM
... You've stopped at sarcasm, you haven't moved the discussion forward...

Funny how in all your propensity to cut & paste, quote and provide links, you overlooked this quote as my contribution to the discussion:

Maybe because you are new here? Those of us who've been around a while (old or not) know perfectly well that we welcome and encourage and ask directly for more female participation. And those female photographers who chose to contribute collaboratively rather than combatively are surely aware of the warm and sincere welcome by us, "old boys".
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 19, 2012, 04:57:29 PM
Funny how in all your propensity to cut & paste, quote and provide links, you overlooked this quote as my contribution to the discussion
That comment provided your perspective on why everything is just fine, without acknowledging in any way what LoisWakeman had already said wasn't just fine from her perspective.

The sarcastic remark suggests that you think there's something about that article which conflicts with those words of mine - what is it exactly?
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 19, 2012, 04:59:08 PM
There are words of yours somewhere?

Pardon me for not noticing in the jungle of quotes and links you usually provide ;)
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 19, 2012, 05:07:30 PM
There are words of yours somewhere?
Pardon me for not noticing in the jungle of quotes and links you usually provide ;)

As she said - "And you wonder why we don't participate? Sheesh."

... what sometimes seems like deliberate misconstruction as an excuse for rudeness, rather than reasoned discussion, rather puts me off participating more.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 19, 2012, 05:15:37 PM
That's it!?

These are your words and your contribution!?

"And she said"!?

Oh, my!
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Isaac on January 20, 2012, 12:22:30 PM
... deliberate misconstruction as an excuse for rudeness, rather than reasoned discussion, rather puts me off participating more.
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 20, 2012, 01:18:08 PM
Not that this is thread going anywhere useful...
:P
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 20, 2012, 02:57:27 PM
That's what happens when a thread departs from its roots...

Rob C
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on January 20, 2012, 04:18:05 PM
That's what happens when a thread departs from its roots...

Rob C
Well, let's hope the Monkey will post something to get it back on course.

Eric
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 21, 2012, 03:56:07 AM
Well, let's hope the Monkey will post something to get it back on course.

Eric




Well, lend it a typewriter and you may find yourself the recipient of the complete Works of one Willie Shakespeare!

Rob C
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on January 21, 2012, 08:08:41 AM
KLaban,

He took that snap just after typing out the complete works of Proust. I think Shakespeare is next, but maybe George Eliot comes first.

Eric
Title: Re: Teaching the Monkey
Post by: Rob C on January 21, 2012, 01:25:46 PM
Okay, Keith, what's his hand doing?

A lovely shot which reminds me of the current commercial for a tooth and gum cleaner chew for pooches, where they show dogs with false teeth. They are really beautifully done!

For no clear reason of which I'm aware, this reminds me that there's going to be a documentary(?) some time this month on Bailey and Shrimpton called We'll Take Manhattan or something similar. It will probably suck, because there are actors, but I know that if I find it I won't be able to resist watching. Those two represent so damned much that mattered so damned much to me!

I wish them well.

Rob C