Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: design_freak on December 12, 2011, 07:36:47 AM

Title: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: design_freak on December 12, 2011, 07:36:47 AM

I invite you to discuss and to vote. please any comments, pros and cons of each of the platforms.
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: EricWHiss on December 12, 2011, 10:08:39 AM
You left out  6008AF or Hy6 plus IQ180  because I would have bought that because the camera is my choice and I think still better than the others.



Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: design_freak on December 12, 2011, 10:23:12 AM
Sinar/Leaf mean hy6. I will change that. Thanks.
Feel free to write why you chose it.
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 12, 2011, 11:21:23 AM
I get this question asked more times than I can actually count in e-mails, PM's and on forums. The REAL answer here is extremely simply. First you NEVER buy a camera you BUY a SYSTEM and everything about it from back,body, lenses, accessories and such but equally important is software, service , repair, availability in purchase and repair times. Not to mention where is this company going are they financially sound do they put a lot of money in R&D and also rental houses when traveling or whatever reason you may need a rental at any given time. Lets also add loaner service and such. Now before we even get past this part what about the dealer you buy from. Trust me folks i been buying from B&H for almost 40 years and they will not send you a loaner and as good as they are that is NOT what they do. So you need a good dealer for support and when your stuck in the boonies and your software just shit canned who do you call. Your putting out anywhere from 15k to 60 k or more out of your pocket . This is not for the faint at heart and you really need to do your homework. But the first item that is the most important is the back itself and the glass since this is the heart of the system and the most costly. The body is just a go between them but still very important. Personally a body is what it is and my main concern is back, glass and software. If i am going to compromise anywhere it will be the body. But thats me others think differently. As far as what system to buy , do your homework and buy what fits you the best. I chose Phase since it fit me the best at the time and still does. But i also added a Cambo tech cam to my entire system as well and 3 lenses. Plus I have a 35mm system for that type of work that requires it. I just can't get around the one only system given the diversity of shooting I do as much as i have banged my head trying. LOL
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: jonathan.lipkin on December 12, 2011, 11:32:33 AM
I looked at a few and settled on the H3Dii because of the tilt/shift adapter. Guy's analysis is correct - it's the system, and also a good idea to buy from a dealer you can establish a relationship with.
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: Graham Mitchell on December 12, 2011, 12:19:10 PM
I like the Hy6 platform because of the fast leaf shutter lenses, the various rotating backs/sensors, and the viewfinder options. Other 'nice to have features' are that I can run back and camera from one battery, and the ergonomics.
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: theguywitha645d on December 12, 2011, 12:26:21 PM
If I were buying a P1 or Leaf back I would chose one with the mount that would fit my camera.
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: ondebanks on December 12, 2011, 12:28:52 PM
I agree with Guy, that the body is not inherently as important as the lenses and the back. But the back is freely interchangeable with many choices (you could pick any of the options in the poll, and change the back afterwards); whereas the lens range is not. I rank the lens range as the most important factor. But since the body determines which lens range can be mounted, that indirectly makes the body important too!

Since I have (and really need) such things as a full-frame 645 fisheye and 200/2.8 telephoto, there's only one choice for me - the Mamiya/Phase 645AFD/DF platform, mainly with manual focus lenses.
The Rollei 6008AF/Hy6 comes close for fast lenses etc., and the bodies are wonderful, but it's a lot more pricey as a system.

But I dispute one aspect of the poll: I would not pick any of the digital backs listed (IQ/Aptus)!  :P That restricts the whole poll to Dalsa sensors only, and they are just too noisy and restrictive in long exposures. Give us some Kodak options (most P+ backs, Hasselblad CF, Sinar 65LV, etc.) please!

Ray

Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 12, 2011, 01:16:44 PM
I agree with Guy, that the body is not inherently as important as the lenses and the back. But the back is freely interchangeable with many choices (you could pick any of the options in the poll, and change the back afterwards); whereas the lens range is not. I rank the lens range as the most important factor. But since the body determines which lens range can be mounted, that indirectly makes the body important too!

Since I have (and really need) such things as a full-frame 645 fisheye and 200/2.8 telephoto, there's only one choice for me - the Mamiya/Phase 645AFD/DF platform, mainly with manual focus lenses.
The Rollei 6008AF/Hy6 comes close for fast lenses etc., and the bodies are wonderful, but it's a lot more pricey as a system.

But I dispute one aspect of the poll: I would not pick any of the digital backs listed (IQ/Aptus)!  :P That restricts the whole poll to Dalsa sensors only, and they are just too noisy and restrictive in long exposures. Give us some Kodak options (most P+ backs, Hasselblad CF, Sinar 65LV, etc.) please!

Ray



Ray good point on the glass. Lenses are really the restrictive part since they will ONLY fit within the same brand name of body and the backs even at a mount change cost can be moved around the systems. Thanks for adding that. I'm thinking Sinar, Phase and Leaf backs you can but I am not sure on Hassy backs if you can mount change???
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: EricWHiss on December 12, 2011, 01:20:54 PM
Interesting to read that Ray and Guy where you think the body is not as important, and I wonder if you both shoot with the Phase Mamiya  645 bodies then? ... Just kidding!

But seriously,  I find the body really important for the following reasons:  
1)  Viewfinder and focusing are key for me.  I need a big, bright viewfinder and having different finder options like WLF, Chimney, 45 and 90 prisms like the Hy6 has make focusing easy in many different circumstances.
2)  Mirror dampening (or not)... The Hy6/AFi is so well damped I feel comfortable shooting at slow speeds
3)  Advanced functions - like focus trap and focus stepping and custom settings  
4)  Ergonomics.  Everyone will have their own preferences.  I myself find the Rollei 6000 and Hy6 very close to ideal.  


Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 12, 2011, 01:33:52 PM
Interesting to read that Ray and Guy where you think the body is not as important, and I wonder if you both shoot with the Phase Mamiya  645 bodies then? ... Just kidding!

But seriously,  I find the body really important for the following reasons:  
1)  Viewfinder and focusing are key for me.  I need a big, bright viewfinder and having different finder options like WLF, Chimney, 45 and 90 prisms like the Hy6 has make focusing easy in many different circumstances.
2)  Mirror dampening (or not)... The Hy6/AFi is so well damped I feel comfortable shooting at slow speeds
3)  Advanced functions - like focus trap and focus stepping and custom settings  
4)  Ergonomics.  Everyone will have their own preferences.  I myself find the Rollei 6000 and Hy6 very close to ideal.  




Well I think we are both saying it is maybe less important to lenses and back since we can and do have alternates in tech cams as the medium but also bodies are pretty basic items and usually the least amount in costs. But they obviously have importance for sure. Now a new Phase body certainly would put a bigger smile on my face for sure, no denying that ever. LOL

Its not perfect and many Phase shooters feel the same way it is our compromise in the system at large. I would never deny that to anyone. Its good and workable but could be better.
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: design_freak on December 12, 2011, 02:56:11 PM
I looked at a few and settled on the H3Dii because of the tilt/shift adapter. Guy's analysis is correct - it's the system, and also a good idea to buy from a dealer you can establish a relationship with.

You can still enjoy it on H4x... with much much better DB :)
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: design_freak on December 12, 2011, 02:59:57 PM
If I were buying a P1 or Leaf back I would chose one with the mount that would fit my camera.

It would be safe to have right mount ;)
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: BlasR on December 12, 2011, 03:59:21 PM
Ar u getting pay for the IQ?  or you want to be IQ dealer?

just asking!

What about if anyone like to buy H4d-60 ,great choice all in one.
its not better?
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: yaya on December 12, 2011, 04:39:01 PM
But I dispute one aspect of the poll: I would not pick any of the digital backs listed (IQ/Aptus)!  :P That restricts the whole poll to Dalsa sensors only, and they are just too noisy and restrictive in long exposures. Give us some Kodak options (most P+ backs, Hasselblad CF, Sinar 65LV, etc.) please!

Ray, at least half of the backs you've listed are no longer in production and the vast majority of MF images in the world are being taken at exposures shorter than 10 seconds.

Kodak Platinum Equity has yet to announce ~5m CCDs that are larger than 49x37mm which makes its current products less appealing for many typical MF applications

Yair


Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: design_freak on December 12, 2011, 04:58:49 PM
Ar u getting pay for the IQ?  or you want to be IQ dealer?

just asking!

What about if anyone like to buy H4d-60 ,great choice all in one.
its not better?

My answers to your questions:
I do not have to buy  ;D
I do not intend to sell  :)
The privilege of the rich  8)
In my opinion no  ::)

The question has been asked quite precisely. As many as two options are for products the company, which is a good result.

Kisses  :D
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: ondebanks on December 13, 2011, 04:36:00 AM
Ray, at least half of the backs you've listed are no longer in production and the vast majority of MF images in the world are being taken at exposures shorter than 10 seconds.

Kodak Platinum Equity has yet to announce ~5m CCDs that are larger than 49x37mm which makes its current products less appealing for many typical MF applications

Yair


Yair, true; but I didn't see any rule which said that we could only buy brand new equipment! Sometimes older is in fact technically better. And we all know the longevity of MFD backs.

Re. exposures shorter than 10 seconds - don't you feel at all embarassed that your company sells supposedly top-end photographic products, which cannot do one of the very basic things that 100 years of film cameras, and 10 years of cheap CMOS cameras, could (and still can) do, as a fundamental and essential part of the photographer's creative palette?

We owe Leaf a huge debt of gratitude for being among the founding fathers and pioneers of MF digital backs in the '90s, kickstarting our genre; but it's not 1992 or 2001 anymore, and there can be no excuses for inadequate performance, now that the technology has been very mature for a number of years.

Ray
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: yaya on December 13, 2011, 09:19:25 AM
Hi Ray,

I hate the car analogy we always use on here but the fact that a 2 seater high-end sports car cannot be fitted with 2 child seats in the back, which most cheap/ used compact family cars can easily do, does not mean it is not a good sports car or that its manufacturer should be embarrassed because it can't be used for school runs...

There are some very good (photographic) reasons for using Dalsa sensors these days as they do a fantastic job for may typical MF/ LF applications

The OP has listed "P+/ IQ/ Aptus-II" in the poll which I would assume rules out older/ other back models

Yair
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: theguywitha645d on December 13, 2011, 11:36:36 AM
With such a short flange distance, the S2 could be the new mirrorless camera with a mirror. The Chinese (and Leica) could (does) make lens adapters for other brand lenses. I can put Mamiya, Hasselblad, and Pentax 67 lenses on my 645D. I can even put Leica Visoflex lenses on the 645D.

I hope Holga and Lomo is reading this...
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: design_freak on December 13, 2011, 12:01:44 PM
I'm torn. if phase one df offered the opportunity to work with the film cassette, without hesitation I would choose the body. I hope that colleagues from Phase One to learn to read. I hope that the new body Phase One will offer such an opportunity. Currently, I take into account H4x and Hy6. Hy6 + APTUS II R - really nice combo. h4x + IQ180. Unfortunately, Hasselblad future is uncertain (nothing is known about the new lenses for matching full frame) I really like 35-90 and 28.

Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: EricWHiss on December 13, 2011, 12:04:14 PM
I hate the car analogy and occasionally call out Yair on overly sales'y stuff like 'multishot killer'  however in this case I am writing to back him up.   While they can't do 10 minute exposures like the phase p45+, the latest leaf backs do quite well at 10sec - even up to 30 secs - really.    And if memory serves, I probably could put my two young kids behind the seats in my 1959 190sl convertible and drive them to school - except that I had to sell the car to pay for the camera gear.  :D

Hi Ray,

I hate the car analogy we always use on here but the fact that a 2 seater high-end sports car cannot be fitted with 2 child seats in the back, which most cheap/ used compact family cars can easily do, does not mean it is not a good sports car or that its manufacturer should be embarrassed because it can't be used for school runs...

There are some very good (photographic) reasons for using Dalsa sensors these days as they do a fantastic job for may typical MF/ LF applications

Yair

Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: DeeJay on December 14, 2011, 01:03:20 PM
I wish Phase added Rollei to their mount list. That is the choice I would make in a heart beat and would gladly give the rest the flick.
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: Anders_HK on December 14, 2011, 09:09:01 PM
" if you're planning on buying equipment...  Phase One/Leaf choose right mount"

My choice was Rolleiflex Hy6 with AFi-II 12.

Handling a Hy6 convinced me. Having now used it for around six months I am very pleased. It is lightyears ahead of Mamiya AFDIII system in every aspect, including ease, ergonomics, simplicity, quality, reliability. It is also a different way of seeing and has brought me more back to the image. The Xenotar 80/2.8 AFD is the best lens I have ever owned.

The AFi-II 12 files are superb in image quality and not mere more pixels; a very worthy step up from other Leaf backs. Rotating sensor and tilting screen works perfect with Hy6, best solution.

I highly recommend it.

Best regards
Anders
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: ondebanks on December 15, 2011, 04:43:15 AM
With such a short flange distance, the S2 could be the new mirrorless camera with a mirror. The Chinese (and Leica) could (does) make lens adapters for other brand lenses. I can put Mamiya, Hasselblad, and Pentax 67 lenses on my 645D. I can even put Leica Visoflex lenses on the 645D.

I hope Holga and Lomo is reading this...

Mamiya lenses on your 645D? As in, Mamiya 645 lenses? I've said previously  (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=59524.msg480590#msg480590)that if I could focus my M645 lenses to infinity on a Pentax 645D, I'd never look back! But the P645 & M645 flange registration distances seemed to rule that out (no problem for the M645 & S2, though). If there's a solution I've missed, please tell - I'm intrigued!!

Ray
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: ondebanks on December 15, 2011, 05:07:47 AM
Hi Ray,

I hate the car analogy we always use on here but the fact that a 2 seater high-end sports car cannot be fitted with 2 child seats in the back, which most cheap/ used compact family cars can easily do, does not mean it is not a good sports car or that its manufacturer should be embarrassed because it can't be used for school runs...

There are some very good (photographic) reasons for using Dalsa sensors these days as they do a fantastic job for may typical MF/ LF applications


Yair, the car analogy is actually a good one.

You see, it highlights where Medium Format sort of lost its way in the digital age.

In the film age, a Medium Format SLR or rangefinder could do ***EVERYTHING*** that a 35mm SLR or rangefinder could do; in some cases it could do it technically better with greater control (faster flash sync etc.), and in all cases it delivered much better image quality.

With film, if 35mm was a "compact family car", then Medium Format was a top-end Range Rover, with the same number of seats (and yes, plenty of room for the child seats in the back too!), but more space, more power, greater visibility, and more confidence in challenging conditions. You lost nothing in moving up to Medium Format; a little less of the automation bells and whistles perhaps, but nothing fundamental to image making, and nothing that a good photographer couldn't do without. You gained - well, we all remember how much we gained in moving up.

Now with a very large segment of the Medium Format digital market, we've gone backwards - the "tool which can do-it-all" philosophy has been discarded, the child seats have been tossed out and it's become a "2 seater high-end sports car", good for some things only.

I cannot be the only photographer who is saddened and annoyed by this.

Ray
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: Anders_HK on December 15, 2011, 06:54:02 AM
Now with a very large segment of the Medium Format digital market, we've gone backwards - the "tool which can do-it-all" philosophy has been discarded, the child seats have been tossed out and it's become a "2 seater high-end sports car", good for some things only.

I cannot be the only photographer who is saddened and annoyed by this.

I plain disagree with the above and which implies that we are all alike and of same view. Nor was medium format ever a "do-it-all-tool", it lent to slower and deliberate shooting also with film, and for film also not most versatile tool for sports and wildlife. Personally I wish I would have discovered medium format sooner for film (skipped Nikon and had 6x7 transparencies instead of 35mm). Likewise that I would have passed DSLRs altogether and jumped straight to a Leaf back for digital! Frankly looking back it would also have saved me money.

What I use now is Hy6 + AFi-II 12, and for snapshots my iPhone 4. For my photography (landscapes, travels and portraits) I fail to see the need for a DSLR, and which would lend to a shooting experience I dislike. For snapshots I use iPhone.

Best regards,
Anders
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: DeeJay on December 15, 2011, 08:09:27 AM
My MF is my do it all tool. Except for snaps which I use a Leica X1.

I would actually reverse it and say that a dSLR is now a limited tool for me now and that 'back in the day' of 10 shot per 120 roll, MF was more limited because of expense.
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: pixjohn on December 15, 2011, 01:57:03 PM
I use a Leaf back on an H2 body now.  If I was to purchase a new back i would probably stay with the H4X.
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: Graham Mitchell on December 17, 2011, 05:02:43 AM
I wish Phase added Rollei to their mount list. That is the choice I would make in a heart beat and would gladly give the rest the flick.

Would be great to see that happen!
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: ondebanks on December 17, 2011, 06:40:08 AM
Would be great to see that happen!

Didn't it happen already? (But at a typically unjustifiable extra cost!)

http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/01/31/phase-one-comes-to-the-rolleiflex/

Or was this plan abandoned? I've never seen reference to it since.

Ray
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: ondebanks on December 17, 2011, 07:03:26 AM
I plain disagree with the above and which implies that we are all alike and of same view. Nor was medium format ever a "do-it-all-tool", it lent to slower and deliberate shooting also with film, and for film also not most versatile tool for sports and wildlife. Personally I wish I would have discovered medium format sooner for film (skipped Nikon and had 6x7 transparencies instead of 35mm). Likewise that I would have passed DSLRs altogether and jumped straight to a Leaf back for digital! Frankly looking back it would also have saved me money.

What I use now is Hy6 + AFi-II 12, and for snapshots my iPhone 4. For my photography (landscapes, travels and portraits) I fail to see the need for a DSLR, and which would lend to a shooting experience I dislike. For snapshots I use iPhone.

Best regards,
Anders

Anders,

How did you turn my "I cannot be the only..." into your "implies that we are all alike and of same view"?
So a doubtful "surely there is more than one?" equates to an assertive "there is absolutely everyone!"? Of course not.

I abandoned 35mm entirely when I got my Mamiya 645 system in 1992. It was indeed a "do-it-all-tool" for me.

I think you missed my main point, which was encapsulated in the phrase "but nothing fundamental to image making": so yes, I agree with you that MF & film "was not most versatile tool for sports and wildlife", but that's a question of degree. 35mm film could do some things better/easier/cheaper than MF - but the point is that MF could still actually do them if you tried. It was not technically disabled from taking on sports and wildlife; I've seen plenty of examples. With few exceptions now - and that's a dwindling number of exceptions given the sensor direction that PhaseOne is going in - it is technically disabled from taking on very long exposures, which I view as fundamental to image making in some applications. Even if you never need to make long exposures (and I know that's the majority of people here) you might appreciate this deeper point about the changed "philosophy" and utility of medium format.

Ray
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: Graham Mitchell on December 17, 2011, 06:10:41 PM
Didn't it happen already? (But at a typically unjustifiable extra cost!)

http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/01/31/phase-one-comes-to-the-rolleiflex/

Or was this plan abandoned? I've never seen reference to it since.

Ray

That refers to the 6008 not the Hy6.
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: theguywitha645d on December 17, 2011, 07:00:43 PM
Mamiya lenses on your 645D? As in, Mamiya 645 lenses? I've said previously  (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=59524.msg480590#msg480590)that if I could focus my M645 lenses to infinity on a Pentax 645D, I'd never look back! But the P645 & M645 flange registration distances seemed to rule that out (no problem for the M645 & S2, though). If there's a solution I've missed, please tell - I'm intrigued!!

Ray

Ray, sorry, my bad. I am not sure where I got the idea--probably read it on the internet. ;)
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: ondebanks on December 19, 2011, 05:03:56 AM
Ray, sorry, my bad. I am not sure where I got the idea--probably read it on the internet. ;)

No worries mate :)
Goddamn internet - I think we should all keep well away from it!  :D

The other way around should be possible (P645 lens -> M645 body), but I've never come across a commercial adapter; just one reference to someone who said they were looking into getting one custom made.

The Pentax 645 300/4 EDIF would be one lens worth adapting, at least to the manual focus bodies: beats the M645 300/5.6 on speed and ED glass, beats the M645 300/2.8 on price and weight; it's a nice "middle way". Would also be nice to see a shoot-out between the Pentax 300/4 and the Mamiya AF 300/4.5 on the same body.

Ray
Title: Re: if you're planning on buying equipment... Phase One/Leaf choose right mount
Post by: ondebanks on December 19, 2011, 05:05:13 AM
That refers to the 6008 not the Hy6.

Ah, of course. (I still think 600x when I read "Rollei mount").