Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: Morgan_Moore on November 26, 2011, 04:31:37 pm
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User Fred has been battering FCP lets get it out there.
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I have been using FCP6 since I started learning editing.
Using my Canon, Sony FS100 I transcode the footage to prorezz
(this is a fairly painless 'tea' or 'sleep' based process)
I then *
-create a bin for my rushes
-drop into that bin and then all on the timeline
-cut them up with B for Blade
-move the around with A for .. who knows
-do a little grade using 3 way colour
-Export
If I went to Scarlet I think I would..
Go into 'Capture One' (whatever the Red Raw convter is called)
Apply a look to the Red Raw files
Export them to pro ress
Continue as before
This is assuming a 1080 delivery and no fancy motion graphics - Im a camera person who will edit small local jobs, for larger jobs the client should use a post house and employ me as an operator or DOP
Where does this fall over?
Obviously the weak link is the inability to apply further tweeks to the RAW of a specific clip and have that move to the timeine without re-exporting the file
SamMM
*this is a little oversimplified, often I have 2 or 3 tracks of vision and a couple of sound
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I will-would participate in this thread.
But not to shut-down FCP, just to be informative as far as my knowledge can help.
If we could have all the knowledge of the members, it will be an excellent thread.
An idea could be taking many common tasks, each one separatly, and see what would be the procedure in this or that NLE so we can compare (and learn from everybody).
Surprises will araise, beleive me. It could be a powerfull thread and very informative.
But I'll doubt it will work.
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Im NLE agnostic :) Fire away
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Question about slow-mo.
You've shoot _ fps with your Phantom or your Casio microcam and want to output slow-mo in a 24 fps project.
What's the procedure in FCP7 (or X if you wish) just to place the clip in the timeline at the correct speed? (step by step)
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get off speed clips, place in a folder
open compressor
select 'conform' 25p
OK
conform process takes 5 second (its just re-writing meta data not interpolating the file)
drag files into FCP bin/time line
Edit, no rendering etc
Or sony FS100 in S+Q motion - no action required
This process has never been an issue to me ia 5 mins at the beginning of the project
S
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Identifying 'off speed' clips can be an issue using a DSLR
Either shoot a 60p card, or if you have muddled them up..
Photomechanic - view the folder
SOrt - by size
all the 720 come to the top!
Select and Apple J (I think) - move to different folder
S
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Thanks.
- Edius:
1) put your(s) clip(s) into the timeline (by default Edius will motion adapt the clip to your speed project)
2) right-clic on the clips in the bin, a dialog-box appears with all the clip settings that can be affected
3) type the original speed (ex 1500 fps)
done
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- Avid
Different possibilities.
my favorite is this:
a) clip into the timeline (same default motion adapting than Edius)
a2) if you want you can mark in-out points and not the entire clip (same in edius by the way)
b) Open the motion effect editor choose
TIMEWARP
c) parameter (by values or by visual display that looks like a vectroscope. it's keyframable and the render style is parametrable, so as format, strobe if required)
done.
nota: edius also allows fine tuning with keyframes etc...but it's one step more. If all you want is a fixed slow-mo based on your original footage (let's say you shooted at 200 fps) and you don't want the NLE to motion adapt to 25p, it's just the right-clic I told above.
In both editors, you could affect the speed of a clip within the timeline without overwriting anything and matching the sound. This would depend on factors like if you are in overwrite or split mode and if the "layers" are connected or not. So it's completly flexible at the moment you take that decision.
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get off speed clips, place in a folder
open compressor
select 'conform' 25p
OK
conform process takes 5 second (its just re-writing meta data not interpolating the file)
I think you might mean Cinema Tools not Compressor?
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correct Cinema Tools
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So our score sheet
Importing the clips not a problem
Timeramping the clips in FCP is possible, but confusing and I dont know the quality of the interpolation
you might be 0-1 up!
S
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So our score sheet
Importing the clips not a problem
Timeramping the clips in FCP is possible, but confusing and I dont know the quality of the interpolation
you might be 0-1 up!
S
Yeah, that's where Avid starts to shine for ex. Interpolation is choosable, there are many and you have to know those well to see wich one is best for this or that. A real editor knowledge.
I also forgot to mention, because it could lead to confusion, that the timewrap in Avid is different from the motion effect. Motion effect is used if you want to affect from the beginning the clip and recuperate its native speed. Timewrap is more suitable when you are in the timeline, editing.
Motion effect has less render options than timewrap.
I have a sort of sheet that explains wich interpolation is best and what are the consequences, but it is in spanish and transltion would take awhile.
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Question: now you want to import in a layer, sorry, in a track, a 10 bits still image with alpha channel. (let's assume you are using a 10 bit codec also). The image is RGB...
The layer could be a sign (advertising) took by a highres camera, it could also be an image sequence with alpha chanel generated in PS, false clouds, whatever.
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Honestly we are now going beyond my 'remit' - I cannot fight the corner of FCP
I have improted jpgs and PSDs
With the PSDs I was able to manipulate individual layers
I was creating 'Astons' bands at 70% opacity with 100% opacity text on top
The process was render heavy and annoying
S
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STILLS
About stills import,
both Edius and Avid don't support CMYK.
This is frankly a little annoying if you haven't checked before that all your images are in RGB mode.
As often, Avid features more options on the import-behaviour, but I find Edius to be more user-friendly when it comes to render still imagery.
-AVID
In Avid, the way you import stills matters a lot, and it's also the case with any other material so what I write here is valuable also for motion footage.
As the still will normally be in RGB mode, you can dialog with Avid to see how this will be integrated.
-If you tell Avid that the source image is in RGB mode, Avid will import the image within the broadcast "legal" black and white.
-Now, you can also fool the software and impose to it that you want to keep the super-blacks etc...then you fool Avid saying that your image is already a 601-709, it will import with the "illegal" values.
-There is third option that is usefull in the case you face banding. It will remove it but the "price to pay" is a little more grain added.
-you can-have also tell the software how to behave in the case that your image was prepared for the output format or not, the nature of the pixels, squared or not, etc...
this would be a little long to put on this post but the dialog box is quite clear about it and it's fast.
but as always, many options means that the users have to really know what they are doing and "stupid" errors can occur easily if one doesn't look carefully to the dialog box options.
-you can pre-assign a duration for your still
-you can choose if you want Avid to take the alpha chanel or not, and if you invert it or not (can be usefull)
then you can tell if that's part of a sequence.
CAUTION:
Avid doesn't import by default the sequence in the desired order in the bin.
Tho_mas gave me the solution in another antique thread: sort by name: in the Bin click on the column "Name" and press cmd+E (strg+E on PC respectively).
In Avid, this is very important that you learn the bin options seriously. When I started, I just wanted to cut and no took time to understand the all bin capabilities, and then
issues can occurs and I was barking against the software when it was me.
Learning the bins in Avid is a must because they are really powerfull.
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Edius:
Edius is really powerfull when it comes to deal with still imagery (on the quality side).
Edius is also a WYSIWYG editor. That's a powerfull feature. If you conect a proper monitor to it, you see while you cutting the final result. There is no degradation in the viewer.
To be short, it's very much like the Avid but more straighforward. Less options at first but you can always come back later and parameter.
Also, Edius is 10bits default and its engine does a really good job in adapting still imagery in a motion color-space.
Be carefull in Edius: if you update in PS the still, it will be updated in Edius Also automatically. This is a good and bad thing, it depends.
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SUPER IMPORTANT
Edius does not (this is a big and one of the only downside of Edius) recognize PS layers ! Booo Grass Valley, bad !...it would import a merged PSD (but would maintain the alpha channel).
I don't want a merged psd to be imported.
Ok, one can always create the sequence from PS from the layers but it's an unnecessary step.
Avid in that aspect is the correct way! It has several options on importing a layered psd, you can tell it for example that you just want it to import selected layer(s), etc...the dialog box is clear without "hidden" stuff.
Layered Tiff is not supported.
No rendering needed in both.
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Already tired of this thread? ;D
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Im tired of all threads .. if something needs a thread it doesnt work properly :)
Im happy with FCP formy current cameras, but maye you could describe a Scarlet workflow to me
to me the ideal work flow is probably something..
1) open 'capture one' the red software
2) paste approx look to all files
3) imprort those files to NLE
4) maybe import files from another cam (h264? MTS, ProRezz ?)
edit
5) return to raw viewer, be presented with files that are not on the cutting room floor
6) finalise 'look'
7) grade and effext/text final in NLE
8 ) export
Ideally (1) and (6) would happen inside the NLE....
I would prefer a tea based workflow (time prepping the files while I drink tea) to an NLE that constantly stalls because of background process, or being presented with red render bar
I hate sitting at my computer when it is working and I am not
S
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Unfortunatly, if you use FCP I can't be of any help.
If an experienced FCP user could answer about a great-reliable Scarlet workflow, that would be more helpfull for you than an Avid-Edius user because you currently don't use those.
Best luck.
Cheers.
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I am under the impression that the FCP work flow goes like this
1) do the C1 thing, export
2) improt to FCP
Edit
4) need a different look from the raw? start again and reimport
Pretty poor
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It seems to me that Chris Barrett from this forum has managed a very simple, powerfull and straightforward Red Workflow: Premiere Pro + Da-Vinci.
According to what he was writing, it looks reliable and easy without conforming.
You could maybe ask him.
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I am under the impression that the FCP work flow goes like this
1) do the C1 thing, export
2) improt to FCP
Edit
4) need a different look from the raw? start again and reimport
Pretty poor
Are you talking fcp 7 or fcpx, because there is a huge workflow difference.
For fcp7, export from cine-x in the look you want, then edit, then once the edit is a lock, to do slight matching add the 3 point color editor filter per clip, or if you want a completely different look, export to apple color, which is a fairly easy software to learn.
Then export back to fcp and you get a new sequence which matches you edited sequence, then render and output.
For fcp x, you cannot (unless they changed it recently) modify the clips outside of the program and then relink. There is no relink function, though I understand that now fcpx accepts xml.
IMO
BC
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cine-x is what ive been calling 'capture one' - tool for adding a look and exporting red files
yep Im on 7
Thanks
SMM
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It all depends what kind of workflow you are looking for.
If I understand, you need a fast workflow, without rendering, if possible no conforming and able to both work in fast editing or be powerfull enough for
more heavy-long term projects. You need more reso than 2K.
I also understand that you are in Mac, you don't want to spend your life in heavy learning curve and you want something that works with Red or anything else,
tutos easy to find over the internet, no hassles, reliable because of clients fast delivery etc...
Well, FCP7 simply isn't the appropriate software. I think that the earlier you leave it, the earlier you'd get what you're looking for.
I know that it's not easy to leave a software that we are used to and familiar with, but if you want to move forward in the direction you seems to mention, FCP is a dead road (or an end road, don't know how you say that in english).
IMO, if you agree with all the description I wrote above: Go Premiere Pro.
Avid is too complicated to learn, and not really intuitive (at first). Edius would be the perfect software for your needs but it's windows only, and I'm not sure if Sony Vegas is as good as Adobe with Red workflow.
You learn Premiere fast, tutos abund everywhere.
Then you can get the lite version of Da-Vinci for free wich works like a breeze with adobe.
In terms of workflow, that will be another story and you'll be able to work fast with confidence.
The only thing that you have to watch carefully with Premiere is the video card. Make sure you have the right brand because PP is very dependant on that and it can boost dramatically or not your editing experience.
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I know that it's not easy to leave a software that we are used to and familiar with, but if you want to move forward in the direction you seems to mention, FCP is a dead road (or an end road, don't know how you say that in english).
'Dead end' is the phrase you are looking for.
:)
Avid is too complicated to learn, and not really intuitive (at first). Edius would be the perfect software for your needs but it's windows only, and I'm not sure if Sony Vegas is as good as Adobe with Red workflow.
You learn Premiere fast, tutos abund everywhere.
Premiere has improved enormously, it used to be a crockety bag of poo, but it is much better now. Probably as it's aped many of the excellent Sony Vegas's ideas. Shame Vegas is PC only.
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Premier had nowhere to go but up though that doesn't mean it's not good, it just means Adobe took a long time to get there.
The problem with Premier is not in it's functionality, it's how few people on the professional level use it. At least in El Lay.
If our studios become overbooked or have more long form projects come in, with Premier I can't just pick up a phone and find editorial houses or editors.
With FCP 7 I can find 10 in half a day, with Avid 20 people.
As far as Vegas. Nobody here knows that's a NLE, to them Vegas is just a quick drive to a weekend of fun.
IMO
BC
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Avid is a great NLE, probably the most complete and powerfull to date.
But IMO, it depends a lot on each one business situation. The thing with Avid is that it is the editor for real professional editors, I mean people who are editing 9-10 hours a day everyday. Then Avid shines.
But if you do not practise regularly, it's very easy to forget it. (in that senses it's very much like Smoke).
I think that for multitask people, indy or small pros, that do all their things, included the shooting alone or in a reduced team, Avid is overkill and could be more a problem than a solution.
You really have to edit all the time to make profit of Avid.
For middle, big structures, it's another story, they don't have this prob because they can put people on the editing task.
So I think that for small structures, or simply people who can't-want to enter in a serious learning curve, there are easiest options being good options.
Now, it's true that for a relatively ambicious studio, with external editing houses in mind, Avid would be a great choice, but people should know first that it's not going to be a Premiere Pro or a Vegas learning curve.
Media Composer is a much more serious tool to master.
It is so true that there is a sort of pride within Avid editors because they know that none week-end editors are using it. It's pro only.
Having using it for some months now, I can tell that there is a good reason to go Avid, but there also could be bad reasons in some cases. It's great on comlicated stuff, colaborative workflow, lots of volume, file management, high-end editing techniques that require skilled operator...it's really bad on instant editing with easy intuitive interface that our gran'ma could do while cooking.
There are some advanced functions in the timeline for ex that are really suitable for working fast with flexibility and precision, but they require the guy real knowledge or at least training. In the right hands it could be a time saver, but if the person does not know what he's doing, it could f...d and ruin the editing tracks in the instant without you noticing it at first (so no necessarly will be possible comand-Z)...the "what the hell is that?..." will resonate. (same with Edius)
But I do think that Avid, even not perfect, is bringing me a real plus in my workflow and measurable in terms of time-money (they are the same) and capabilities.
http://vimeo.com/17502817