Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Pro Business Discussion => Topic started by: mediumcool on November 05, 2011, 11:21:31 am
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I don’t mean the late and lamented magazine, but how the profession (pretentious?) is practised these days.
Pies at Petapixel (http://www.petapixel.com/2011/11/04/theory-vs-reality-how-photographers-actually-spend-their-time/).
(http://img13.mediafire.com/c3c11b2f776a29ee11daf49d85a29a5773ea72662937166d1799f25c09868f4e6g.jpg)
I would prefer that the red and the green were at least equal. Amusing nonetheless.
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Maybe they didn’t have enough colours for eating, sleeping, and …
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I spend less than 12% of my week actually shooting. Ideally it would be around 40%.
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I spend less than 12% of my week actually shooting. Ideally it would be around 40%.
I reckon 25 – 30% would be great, but 20% or less would be the real world. I spend more time in Capture One and Photoshop. Need speed!
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Thanks for sharing, very interesting! I guess the more you are able to shoot (in %), the more money you have to pay other people do the post processing and all the other stuff for you.
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Thanks for sharing, very interesting! I guess the more you are able to shoot (in %), the more money you have to pay other people do the post processing and all the other stuff for you.
Yes, there’s definitely a balancing act if there is a lot of shooting going on: I remember being in awe as a young photographer hearing that a number of famous photogs had others always do their developing and printing, HCB for one.
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Maybe they didn’t have enough colours for eating, sleeping, and …
Real Photographers aren't supposed to waste time eating or sleeping or ...
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The dreamt ideal would be the opposite.
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So incredibly true!
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Real Photographers aren't supposed to waste time eating or sleeping or ...
The ellipsis was there to indicate elision of a rude word!
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Yeah, and that is the problem with an "hourly rate"!
If you shoot 12% of the time, and charge for that time, each hour = 1/8 of the total workload.
So 1 hours shooting at $80/hour = 8 hours work at $10 hour. Subtract capital (equipment) and overhead (lights, gas), here we are back at the minimum wage of $7.85 US.
So the customer can scream "You want $160 effing bucks an hour! You are crazy!" :P
And maybe at that rate you make $15 an hour net, or $30,000 a year. Which is average pay for the lowest paid profession, a Social Worker, straight out of college. >:(
Then you break a Profoto flash tube that costs $500 and you don't eat that week. Thanks for the chart!
Michael
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When I was young, my second studio was built alongside the house, the original one having been 'let go' when studio work dried up. Naturally, within some months of that decision it came back again... so, we built. As a result, the kids were used to seeing Nikons and 'blads lying around the place in manner most casual, though in reality, I was hoping to interest them in the gentle art. Clearly and thankfully, they were a damned sight smarter than I, and hardly spared the stuff a glance.
Today, it would have been one more thing on my conscience.
In truth, not a lot has changed other than the competition is even greater in numbers if not quality. In the early 80s a friend of mine whose son had just graduated from university took the lad to a career specialist for advice when he showed an interest in photography. (This was a wealthy family; the father could have floated the whole thing.) According to the specialist (in London - family lived in Spain), the prognosis was not good: he told the lad that there were possibly a dozen guys in Britain making really big money out of the business. The young chap took up PR instead.
As I wrote on another thread, you have to love photography and making images if you push it hard enough to really do it as career.
Rob C
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As I wrote on another thread, you have to love photography and making images if you push it hard enough to really do it as career.
I have my social security (official tax record) income statements from my 20's, after I graduated from college.
With my dual majors in Photography and Philosophy, and by combinging my two lucrative careers of "Photography" and "Bicycle Racing", I was just rolling in the dough. I made $5,000 US one year, $9,000 US the next (in 1990 dollars.) ::) ::)
Of course, that doesn't count the "primes" - $50 prizes - that I would have to sprint for in bike races to earn enough gas money to get home from the race ...
I had a $1,500 bike in the trunk of a $500 car, with a spare tire in the back seat (good camoflage.) I've never been as happy though in my life. Plus I could make women blush just by unbuttoning my shirt, that was fun! (I was working out 4-6 hours a day.) ;D
After I busted up my body enough that I couldn't race any more, I went and got an MBA with a focus in IT. I did a digital imaging system in 1991, fresh out of school, and made $45,000 that first year. A little more lucrative.
All those crashes cought up to me though. In 2007 I was offered an ad shoot by the Director of Photography and Archives at Ford (forget his exact title.)
I couldn't do it - too many pain pills, I couldn't work without taking massive doses, plus my memory, cognition, and body were shot (I couldn't sleep with the pain, which fried my brain,etc.) I closed my studio and gave it up - just doing headshots caused too much pain to be worth it ......
Ah well. No regrets.
I just got an e-mail from the Innocence Project in the US. An innocent man just got out of jail after 27 years - after DNA evidence proved that he was innocent ... That covers the whole time period above. At least we had choices!
Cheers. Life is good! ;)
Today, we are thrilled to announce the exoneration of Innocence Project client Thomas Haynesworth. The Virginia Court of Appeals issued a Writ of Actual Innocence in his case this morning, ending Mr. Haynesworth's long ordeal. Wrongfully convicted of three Richmond-area crimes in 1984, Mr. Haynesworth served nearly 27 years in prison and over eight months as a registered sex offender.
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Yeah, and that is the problem with an "hourly rate"!
If you shoot 12% of the time, and charge for that time, each hour = 1/8 of the total workload.
So 1 hours shooting at $80/hour = 8 hours work at $10 hour. Subtract capital (equipment) and overhead (lights, gas), here we are back at the minimum wage of $7.85 US.
So the customer can scream "You want $160 effing bucks an hour! You are crazy!" :P
And maybe at that rate you make $15 an hour net, or $30,000 a year. Which is average pay for the lowest paid profession, a Social Worker, straight out of college. >:(
Then you break a Profoto flash tube that costs $500 and you don't eat that week. Thanks for the chart!
Michael
I got up to $130/hour about 15 years ago, but it’s been down, down ever since; backyarders (what we call ’em here in Australia) have ruined the market except for the top-end. I do print design as well, so this often supplements the same job.
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backyarders (what we call ’em here in Australia) have ruined the market except for the top-end. I do print design as well, so this often supplements the same job.
Yeah, this industry is an effing mess!
How is anyone supposed to make a living or get by, to ever get to the higher end today? There is no low end where you can learn, no career path where you can do portyraits or headshots and eat and make a little income while they are learning, etc.
I don't see the future, as Rob C. said about his kids.
I balanced making images with working on digital imaging systems. It was a good "synthesis", because I kept hands-on with systems that I could never afford on my own. Million $$ plus scanners and servers in 1991, etc.
I bid both the consulting and photo on a project basis, with negotiated deliverables and timing. So that removed the "per hour" question for the most part. Averaged $60 an hour as a working number, but that was for 2,000 hours a year, not 12% of that time! (40 hours x 50 weeks) Wow. But I guess most people are able to bill the lab/computer time, so that brings it up to about 1/3 of the time.
Liscensing, rights, all of that is a hard concept to sell nowadays! Everyone thins you are more like the lawn guy, not even up to plumber rates! ???
The models here call the low lifes "GWC" - "guy with camera" - or PWC - "pervert with camera", so that may be a good overall name! ;D ;D
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I balanced making images with working on digital imaging systems. It was a good "synthesis", because I kept hands-on with systems that I could never afford on my own. Million $$ plus scanners and servers in 1991, etc.
For some time I worked as a Mac consultant and was an Authorised Apple Reseller for the graphics/DTP market, so like you got to work with stuff I couldn’t afford! This in addition to photography, print design, and for a while web design (but that field is even worse than photography!).
Liscensing, rights, all of that is a hard concept to sell nowadays! Everyone thins you are more like the lawn guy, not even up to plumber rates! ???
Licensing has never been big in Oz, unlike the US; clients have long expected to own all rights.
The models here call the low lifes "GWC" - "guy with camera" - or PWC - "pervert with camera", so that may be a good overall name! ;D ;D
Love it! ;D
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Probably due to what photographers are charging them for and talking to them about, more than anything else.
True. One point is that Australia is a small market (not long ago the population was less than 20m) and the opportunity to sell on was not particularly feasible until (1) the internet (2) affordable scanning and (3) direct digital imaging all made it easier to shove images around. But the die had been cast, and these factors allowed more *weekend warrior* entrants anyway.
I know photogs shooting weddings/portraits who would not have done so a while back.
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True. One point is that Australia is a small market (not long ago the population was less than 20m) and the opportunity to sell on was not particularly feasible until (1) the internet (2) affordable scanning and (3) direct digital imaging all made it easier to shove images around. But the die had been cast, and these factors allowed more *weekend warrior* entrants anyway.
I know photogs shooting weddings/portraits who would not have done so a while back.
I understand.
When I started out on my own, I did anything to keep the doors open. After several months of misadventure with people who ran away with proofs, didn't turn up, etc. I had my moment of epiphany on a miserable set of wet church steps on a gloomy Glaswegian afternoon: I was awaiting the arrival of a 'bride' when I had this vision of David Bailey driving past in his Rolls, slowing down and smiling at me. It was the last wedding I did. I swore to myself I'd do nothing but try for the fashion that I craved and, that failing, I'd go back into engineering and forget the whole sorry business. It was the best revelation I've ever had.
In a nutshell, do what your heart desires or just get the hell out and do another thing entirely; don't tease and torment yourself with shit. If, indeed, that's how you view that work, which others patently do not and make much moolah from it. Then, as they say in Yorkshire (I take this on trust) where there's muck there's money.
Rob C
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When I started out on my own, I did anything to keep the doors open. After several months of misadventure with people who ran away with proofs, didn't turn up, etc. I had my moment of epiphany on a miserable set of wet church steps on a gloomy Glaswegian afternoon: I was awaiting the arrival of a 'bride' when I had this vision of David Bailey driving past in his Rolls, slowing down and smiling at me. It was the last wedding I did.
Was the *trouble and strife* in the Roller? ;)
I swore to myself I'd do nothing but try for the fashion that I craved and, that failing, I'd go back into engineering and forget the whole sorry business. It was the best revelation I've ever had.
In a nutshell, do what your heart desires or just get the hell out and do another thing entirely; don't tease and torment yourself with shit. If, indeed, that's how you view that work, which others patently do not and make much moolah from it. Then, as they say in Yorkshire (I take this on trust) where there's muck there's money.
Truer words etc. Some people do well with weddings and portraits, and good luck to them.
Given the vagaries of self-employment (and I started in the ’70s), if you don’t like what you are doing, you will burn out while not producing the best work. My biggest weakness was accepting commercial jobs from people I didn’t like on first meeting; relations took a turn for the worse when poor communication, arrogance and stupidity became evident over time (note to self: be careful dealing with a business run by second-generation family). Two lawsuits over 30 years is not too bad, though!
I am nearing 60, and look like qualifying for an early pension; this will help me to work on projects I have been interested in for many years where the returns may be glory, or a trickle of cashflow. Let’s see.
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Was the *trouble and strife* in the Roller? ;)
No, but the 'box of pinups' probably was. ;-)
Given the vagaries of self-employment (and I started in the ’70s), if you don’t like what you are doing, you will burn out while not producing the best work. My biggest weakness was accepting commercial jobs from people I didn’t like on first meeting; relations took a turn for the worse when poor communication, arrogance and stupidity became evident over time (note to self: be careful dealing with a business run by second-generation family). Two lawsuits over 30 years is not too bad, though!
My own tragic experience, too. Happened with my second-biggest regular calendar when the marketing director, for whom I had great personal respect, handed the gig over to his PR man. Turned into my final shoot for them... My ego, the PR's ignorance and my loss. If I could but turn back the clock... I'd have a 9mm in my pocket for client-aimed use only. But then, as you age you realise that everything has to change, clients included. But at the time you don't feel so cool and detached about it...
Rob C
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Love it! ;D
RE: PWC
Yeah, the models are basically treated like shit, by everyone - many photogs, agencies, MUAs, perverts, et. al.
A good handful of mine became fast friends, although it was 100% "hands off" - I am old enough to be their father! Plus married. Had fun pumping loud music, drinking coffee, etc. Now they have all moved to LA (my 3 best, plus my MUA.)
A more general term here is probably: lowballers
I'll have to see what I can work up around that: slimy, low-life, blood sucking, scum bag low-baller, c*ck suckers ....
SLLBSSBLBCS
Hmm... not a great acronym .... gotta work on that ... more later
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My own tragic experience, too. Happened with my second-biggest regular calendar when the marketing director, for whom I had great personal respect, handed the gig over to his PR man. Turned into my final shoot for them... My ego, the PR's ignorance and my loss. If I could but turn back the clock... I'd have a 9mm in my pocket for client-aimed use only. But then, as you age you realise that everything has to change, clients included. But at the time you don't feel so cool and detached about it...
Rob C
In any enterprise requiring creativity and skill, a healthy ego is essential, but it can get in the way. If I remember an old Richard Avedon quote correctly, he said: “ ... if I have to stand on my head in public to feed my family, I’ll do it”.
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RE: PWC
Yeah, the models are basically treated like shit, by everyone - many photogs, agencies, MUAs, perverts, et. al.
A good handful of mine became fast friends, although it was 100% "hands off" - I am old enough to be their father! Plus married. Had fun pumping loud music, drinking coffee, etc. Now they have all moved to LA (my 3 best, plus my MUA.)
A more general term here is probably: lowballers
I'll have to see what I can work up around that: slimy, low-life, blood sucking, scum bag low-baller, c*ck suckers ....
SLLBSSBLBCS
Hmm... not a great acronym .... gotta work on that ... more later
Adelaide, the city I live near, has few major fashion houses, so the majority of fashion photography is in catalogues, much of which is done in the larger pop. eastern states, but there is still an *industry* of young star-struck women, some of them more realistic in their expectations. But the thought of [in many cases] older photographers circling naïve young damsels for profit and salaciousness is a bit sickening. It is probably the same everywhere in the *western* world.
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But the thought of [in many cases] older photographers circling naïve young damsels for profit and salaciousness is a bit sickening. It is probably the same everywhere in the *western* world.
Yes. If you see the words "Fine Art Photography," in most internet type cases (Craigslist, Flickr, etc.), it means:
Some scragly old dude, 50-65 years old, probably with a beard, who shoots b&w nudes of young women in the landscape/abandonded barns/etc. and calls it art.
Of course the younger guys have digital cameras and their own schtick.
I have one model I worked with who does primarily nude modelling (not for me - she was surprised that I wanted her to keep her clothes on!)
She would go to a "photo shoot" at a hot tub spa, etc. Had a boyfriend go with her always, but seems like 80% of the time the guys assumed sex was included. She is one of the models who moved to LA - god help her, I hope she is OK.
It is amazing how incredibly eager young women are to be "models" = stars, famous, beautiful, rich, sexy in their eyes.
I did a birthday photo shoot for 3, 15 year old girls, as a favor to the mom of the BD girl (my wifes friend.) With a make up artist, styling, wardrobes, etc.
One of them became so obsessed with me that she talked for a year about how she was going to be my model, that she was my favorite model, she was going to become famous, etc. etc.
On the mom's direction, I never printed, posted, or released a single image from the 100's of pics I took. It caused so much stress between the 3 about who was "my favorite", who was in front of the camera the most (apparently at one point the obsessed one locked a door or something, so the other two couldn't get back to my studio from the dressing room? Something like that.)
Anyway, it is scary, scary, scary how eager they are, how blind they are, and how easy it would be to manipulate them. And that opportunity for manipulation exists at every level of the game, from the PWC to (almost) the highest end of the business.
And that doesn't even include the agents, agencies, photogs, etc. who merely treat the models as some sort of subhuman dog or robot, to be ordered and kicked around, then tpssed aside when they are no longer wanted.
It is in many ways a very slimy business. I always had conflicted feelings about the work. To make matters worse for me, I have a degree in Philosophy (along with Photography), and tend to be introspective about that sort of thing. I do consider myself a "feminist", or at least strongly in favor of equal rights and respect for all.
That was how my studio was run at least. We were all good friends, we had fun working together, there was a bit of teasing, etc. But I did always maintain that clear, bright line.
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A friend who worked in advertising as an art director asked me to get involved in a *model agency* recently; he bragged that he had made a lot of money out of it some years back, but I was dubious because of the bullshit that has to be spread to get paying customers. We had a falling out over other matters, and I am somewhat relieved! I think I could well have been shafted too ...
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Some scragly old dude, 50-65 years old, probably with a beard, who shoots b&w nudes of young women in the landscape/abandonded barns/etc. and calls it art.
I resemble this remark! But if I shave it off, rampant jowls will be there for the world to see! ;D
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I resemble this remark! But if I shave it off, rampant jowls will be there for the world to see! ;D
Ahh, but surely you are accomplished, and therefore it really **is** art? ;>}
Plus, scraggly is sort of close to "scrawny". Now if you have jowls, surely you're not scrawny?
I, on the other hand, try to take photos of beautiful models with near no clothes in my studio, where I have professional equipment, or on location in urban settings. Surely you can see how different and how far superior that is?
The truth is that it all a continuum. At 53, I can't help but feel like some kind of pervert and question my motives hanging out with all of these young, vital 20ish year olds. Not just the models either - makeup artists, etc.
The whole fashion industry is on a continuim of pretense about what it does to young women. Just look at the figures on anorexia - they are astounding! Along with things like cutting (self inflicted), etc.
At the same time, I have loved photography since I was 8. And I remember taking some "comp card" photos of a beginning 15 year old, average model a couple years ago, with her mom there, how much I loved that creative process. So . .... We all live with our compromises, eh?
Cheers!
Michael
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Dear me, I never realised that other people found models so intimidating to their sense of self!
I'm as old as the hills and I would have no problem or compunction about working with nudes again. My problem is availability of said women. Well, the client to pay the model fees, more realistically. I feel no desire to work with beginners; I have worked with the best and once you've been there, there's no way back. Part of the problem is that it's not just body: without the face, it comes down to very little. And beautiful faces are not known for their ubiquity nor, for that matter, is the combination of both perfect face and figure!
I wouldn't mind working with starting girls wanting to do fashion - could quite enjoy that again - but they are as unavailable on this rock upon which I perch as are the clients! Were I to live in a capital city, then I would quite like doing model composites, something I seldom did when I was working - time meant money. What I was lucky in having, was a muse: a girl with talent, huge interest in photography/photographers/fashion magazines, drive and money behind her. Wish she were here and still twenty!
Rob C
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Ahh, but surely you are accomplished, and therefore it really **is** art? ;>}
Should have truncated it to read “Some scragly old dude, 50-65 years old, probably with a beard … ”, which was all I was referring to! Have done precisely two unclad photo shoots (that was the model, not me). The best one was a vanity shoot for a lovely blond 20-year-old of Scandanavian origins; she was giving pix to her boyfriend as a birthday present. I used an Agfa Clack modified for electronic flash and Ilford XP1 (for its speed and tonal range) and made sepia prints. Best for me was a pic of Christy backlit in a window wearing a thin singlet, with my late dog enjoying a pat while standing cat-like on the windowsill. She got the negs, so I can’t reprint that one.
Plus, scraggly is sort of close to "scrawny". Now if you have jowls, surely you're not scrawny?
Not scrawny (not for a long time) but scraggly has a connotation of ugly, which was what I intended. Jowls, and still more jowls—where do they come from?
I, on the other hand, try to take photos of beautiful models with near no clothes in my studio, where I have professional equipment, or on location in urban settings. Surely you can see how different and how far superior that is?
Ah, yes.
The truth is that it all a continuum. At 53, I can't help but feel like some kind of pervert and question my motives hanging out with all of these young, vital 20ish year olds. Not just the models either - makeup artists, etc.
MUAs can be real sleepers. And FOC wannabes.
The whole fashion industry is on a continuim of pretense about what it does to young women. Just look at the figures on anorexia - they are astounding! Along with things like cutting (self inflicted), etc.
Read (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Wolf) the [ironically] gorgeous Naomi Wolfe on this.
At the same time, I have loved photography since I was 8. And I remember taking some "comp card" photos of a beginning 15 year old, average model a couple years ago, with her mom there, how much I loved that creative process. So . .... We all live with our compromises, eh?
+1
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Some scragly old dude, 50-65 years old, probably with a beard, who shoots b&w nudes of young women in the landscape/abandonded barns/etc. and calls it art.
New Year's resolution: to force myself to shoot less landscapes and barns :D
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It's interesting to me how many threads there are along this same theme.
I'm share similar demographics with you guys, but I realized over a decade ago that there was no real opportunity left because there was no respect for the profession.
Had my top clients hire the AD to shoot the style I developed for them. They watched, learned and then didn't need me. None of them are in the business anymore, same thing happened to them. Clients took everything in house and fired the agencies. Half the clients lost their business to China and so they'e gone. The food chain keeps descending to the lowest common denominator, those who haven't learned yet.
I'll always shoot. I love it more than ever because I don't have to sacrifice my dignity and make others money they don't deserve. There are plenty willing to do so.
Graphic design, web development, video production, all the same story.
Avedon wouldn't last today, standing on your head stop being enough a long time ago.
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It's interesting to me how many threads there are along this same theme.
I'm share similar demographics with you guys, but I realized over a decade ago that there was no real opportunity left because there was no respect for the profession.
Had my top clients hire the AD to shoot the style I developed for them. They watched, learned and then didn't need me. None of them are in the business anymore, same thing happened to them. Clients took everything in house and fired the agencies. Half the clients lost their business to China and so they'e gone. The food chain keeps descending to the lowest common denominator, those who haven't learned yet.
I'll always shoot. I love it more than ever because I don't have to sacrifice my dignity and make others money they don't deserve. There are plenty willing to do so.
Graphic design, web development, video production, all the same story.
Avedon wouldn't last today, standing on your head stop being enough a long time ago.
Not so sure about that. There’s such a thing as the spin-off value of using celebs, and Avedon and a few others are (were) in that bracket.
Take a look at Pirelli: they have always used stars for their calendars, on both sides of the camera, knowing well that that alone adds a certain perceived glamour to their production each year. Also, within the fashion world, there is a certain sense of ‘closed circle’ that keeps things moving in their own orbits.
I’m no oracle – but I think that as long as those various media last, they’ll keep doing it the way they always have. The difference is, those organs were never open to a wide supplier base, but ever exclusive.
Rob C
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New Year's resolution: to force myself to shoot less landscapes and barns :D
All those drafty holes! ;D