Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Jan Morales on November 02, 2011, 10:18:14 pm
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I received a box of 17"x22" Ilford Galerie Gold Fiber Silk paper today from a major retailer in New York City--let's call them A. It arrived damaged because they did not secure the paper in the shipping box and it probably banged around inside during shipping. It's a replacement shipment for a previous box of paper they sent me that was damaged in the exact same way.
And the reason why I bought the paper from A is because I'd had several shipments of paper arrive damaged for the same reason from another major retailer in NYC--let's call them B. ;D
I can't believe that I am the only person on the planet who receives paper from A and B that is damaged, so is it that some damage is considered acceptable by most photographers? That doesn't seem plausible to me, but I can't think of any other explanation.
Or am I too picky about how undamaged the paper I receive should be? Generally the damage is because a corner (or two) of the box of paper has taken a hit resulting in usually every single sheet in the box getting creased in the corner. The damage is not dramatic looking, but I sell prints of this size for about $200, and I like to hand customers a print that is completely free from creases, dents, and other obvious defects. Is that not expected in the fine art print world? If a dent or crease can be hidden behind the mat when framed is that OK?
I'm a little exasperated because it seems to be a recurring problem for me. I just want to get perfectly flat sheets of paper--flat corner to corner. Am I making too big a deal out of it? Or are others of you out there experiencing the same problem?
Sorry for the vent!
Jan
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Unacceptable. In your position I would tell them to take it back at their expense and next time pack it properly. I don't know your purchasing conditions where you live, but for this very reason I buy locally and inspect the boxes before I pay for them.
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Unacceptable. In your position I would tell them to take it back at their expense and next time pack it properly. I don't know your purchasing conditions where you live, but for this very reason I buy locally and inspect the boxes before I pay for them.
Thanks, Mark. That's exactly what I did. I returned the first box and told them to pack it properly and they sent the replacement packed exactly the same way. Ugh. This time I'm just going to get a refund.
I live in the Washington, D.C., area and I searched for a local vendor and haven't found one. Penn Camera here sells Ilford paper, but not in the 17"x22" size.
Does anyone have experience with LexJet? I'm going to try them next.
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I went through this so many times until about 8 years ago when I found Shades Of Paper. com.
They know what they are doing. They double box everything and in all this time of ordering hundreds of rolls and boxes of everything I've never returned a roll or box of media. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you need an outside box but just about none of them do that. It's just amazing when you consider the prices we are paying for this stuff.
The place I get silk from, Jacquard is the exact opposite, they refuse to use decent packaging and every order has some damage.
john
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I don't want to end up with damaged paper, and I do not want to return a shipment of damaged paper. I get that you're trying to protect these retailers but I would love to know who they are before I'm in the same boat. A,B=
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I don't want to end up with damaged paper, and I do not want to return a shipment of damaged paper. I get that you're trying to protect these retailers but I would love to know who they are before I'm in the same boat. A,B=
A = Adorama
B = B&H
Generally boxes of 8.5"x11" paper come undamaged. At 13"x19" the damaged rate is high enough that it feels like a crap shoot when I place an order--not a good feeling. And so far on two shipments of 17"x22" the damaged rate is 100%. I'm not going to stop buying other stuff from them, but I'll get my paper elsewhere.
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<snip>
Penn Camera here sells Ilford paper, but not in the 17"x22" size.
<snip>
Can they order the larger size for you?
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Jan, I think you are just a bit unlucky. I have never (knock on wood) received damaged papers and I order a decent amount, all the way from 8 1/2 x 11 to 17" rolls. I use Atlex and B&H. Luck of the draw I suppose. I agree with the others - if you receive damage goods either refuse the order or return it.
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Can they order the larger size for you?
Believe me, I asked. They referred me to LexJet.
Thank you to all who replied. It's good to get confirmation that expecting undamaged paper is not unreasonable!
Jan
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B&H and Adorama often have the lowest prices on paper, but it arrives damaged so often that it's not actually a savings. If they would only package it properly this wouldn't happen, but they simply will not do it. I've complained, and even told them how others package things so they arrive without damage. FWIW, we order large mats (for picture framing) from a different supplier and they simply "sandwich" them between two sheets of heavy cardboard, stapled all around the edges. This does not allow anything to slide around inside, protects the corners very well, and it's cheap. I've received paper from still other suppliers packaged this way, and it's always perfect. Throwing a box of paper sheets into a larger box offers little protection. It slides around inside the bigger box damaging the corners and the larger box, being mostly empty except for a couple of air pillows, gets crushed. The only papers that seem to survive no matter how badly packaged are the Epson premium papers. Their boxes are heavily reinforced, are much larger than the sheets inside, and provide special protection in the corners. These were obviously designed by someone who knows what they need to withstand in "normal" shipping. Others, like Ilford, need to be packaged by someone who knows how to do it. The manufacturer's box is little more than a shell to hold the sheets.
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Jan:
I had the same problem of crushed corners with Hahnemuhle 17 x 22" and 13 x 19" sheet stock. You would think a German company would understand the concept of mass and momentum. And you can't throw a box of paper into a larger box without some sort of support.
The vendor, IT Supplies, worked with Hahnemuhle USA and had them add protective corners and brown paper cushions to the box of paper. IT Supplies replaced the paper at no charge and shipped it Fedex overnight. In my case they instructed me not to bother with returning the damaged paper. I am very pleased with IT Supplies service and support.
Gene
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Interesting. Never had a problem with orders from either store. Everything is always packed well. Recently ordered 15 frames with glass from Adorama. They arrived quickly (cross-border shipment) and were well packed. The glass in one frame was broken. Not surprising and not Adorama's fault.
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Interesting. Never had a problem with orders from either store. Everything is always packed well. Recently ordered 15 frames with glass from Adorama. They arrived quickly (cross-border shipment) and were well packed. The glass in one frame was broken. Not surprising and not Adorama's fault.
I have total confidence ordering any other type of product from both of them, but for some reason paper is consistently packed loose in the shipping box and consequently often arrives banged up and unusable.
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I've ordered 17x22 Exhibition Fiber from B&H (shipped to Calif) on a number of occasions, but have never had a damage problem. However, that might be because of the way Epson packages that paper, with a cardboard surround for the paper inside the Epson box.
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I've ordered 17x22 Exhibition Fiber from B&H (shipped to Calif) on a number of occasions, but have never had a damage problem. However, that might be because of the way Epson packages that paper, with a cardboard surround for the paper inside the Epson box.
Epson is the only paper I've ordered from them that has not arrived damaged. The Epson boxes are the only manufacturer supplied boxes I've seen that don't require careful packing for shipment.
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Hey Gang
First Off Sheet stock is very hard to ship..why Sometime even Double Boxed doesnt save them.. I Have visited both the UPS and The Fedex main Hubs and Have watched the process in action. Most of the damage comes from a corner crunch..well most times a 25 or 50 sheet box is very light and the warehouse guys treat it like they are freezbees..or jam the box into the truck. Here at Shades we have a policy that any box from our building is double boxed.. we can only hope disty does the same but we all know that a double box cost money time and effort! So Disty looks at it differnt than we do. We have also chosen Fedex as our carrier based on way less claims over a two year period. My only guess is that the Fedex Ground guys own there own route and are responsible for Damages.. where UPS guys are all about speed and Time.
Hope This helps
Cheers
Jim Doyle
Shades Of paper ;)
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Update: A few days ago, against my better judgement, I ordered a 50 sheet box of 8.5"x11" paper from Adorama. I thought it might arrive intact because of the small size. It arrived today and to my amazement, instead of putting it in a box, they put the flimsy manufacturer's box in a padded ENVELOPE! Of course it got bent in the middle and two corners were smashed to the point where the paper sheets were protruding from the corner of the broken interior box. Needless to say it was completely destroyed, but the story doesn't end there. I called Adorama customer service and told them what had happened. The representative asked if I wanted a refund or replacement. Since I ordered the paper because I need it, I asked if they could re-ship the order in a box this time. The rep said "to be honest with you, I can't guarantee it will be packaged any differently than this order". So, I chose a refund and that's the end of ordering sheets of any size from Adorama.
Also, to Jim Doyle, we too have noticed that orders we receive via Fed Ex seldom arrive with damage even when they aren't packed very well. I know our UPS damage rate is much higher, though I haven't kept any statistics on it. Unfortunately most suppliers love using UPS.
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ALL the paper manufactures should really look at the way Epson is currently packaging its large cut sheets! I buy a lot of Epson VFA 17"x22" and it is boxed where the paper sits in a "frame" with thick corrugated cardboard cushioning the paper from all sides. Since they started boxing the paper this way, every sheet has be perfect! Before this, I had MANY bent corners.
~ Jeff
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I recently bought a box of 13x19 Canson Infinity Baryta from B&H. It was double boxed and then placed in a shipping carton sized so that there was no room for the contents to slide around, either left to right or front to back. Large bubble wrap was placed underneath and on top of the paper so it could not move at all.
On the other hand, three months ago I bought a box of 17x22 from B&H which I removed from the shipping carton but have not yet opened. After reading this thread I took a closer look and see that one of the corners of the Canson box is damaged. This shipment was not double boxed and maybe that is the difference. I do not remember how loosely or tightly the Canson box was packed in the shipping carton. Anyway, I hope the damage is not too great inside as the return date has long since passed. After many purchases over many years this is my first negative experience with B&H and based on others' experiences I will be buying my paper elsewhere even though B&H usually has the best prices. Lesson (expensive) learned.
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I agree about the Epson boxes for 17x22 - ideal for shipping. I have had some luck with Atlex. Maybe they do better because printing seems to be their sole business....
Jeff
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As Jim put it here, double boxing is the only way to ship this stuff, if they don't do that move on to another supplier. But also, at least here in Atlanta, UPS is a disaster no matter who ships it. I have used Fed Ex totally for about 7 years now and never have to deal with destroyed boxes. In the rare occasion where someone ships me something UPS it is always bent, and if it's inkjet paper it's destroyed.
john
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One has to hope the same returned boxes of paper aren't going back into stock and going round and round.
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In the Washington, DC area, I would go to Ace Photo in Ashburn, VA. They are a short way north of Dulles Airport and have a large stock of high quality papers. Especially if it's out of your way, I'd call first to see if they have the paper you want. Online, they are at acephoto.net.
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A further note, at Ace Photo, if you ask nicely, they'll let you into the back stockroom to look over the selection. Otherwise, you have to ask at the desk for what you want. --Barbara
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One up for Epson's boxes, both for sheets and rolls.
I haven't returned one single box in 8 years(for box damages). But a lot of other brands.
/Sven
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Jan, you might want to give Embassy a call. I don't know if they'll order it or not, but they're the only other local shop I can think of that MIGHT do that.
http://www.ephotocraft.com/Contact.asp
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I am happy to report that today I received a box of Ilford GFS 17"x22" paper from Shades of Paper very well packed and in perfect condition. What a relief. Thank you to all who responded.
Jan
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P.S. I should add that while the paper from Adorama was damaged due to poor packing, Adorama customer service was always impeccable. They never argued or asked me to pay for return shipping. The refund for the damaged paper came through today.
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I am happy to report that today I received a box of Ilford GFS 17"x22" paper from Shades of Paper very well packed and in perfect condition. What a relief. Thank you to all who responded.
Jan
From vendor 'A' or 'B'?
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From vendor 'A' or 'B'?
I got the paper from Shades of Paper (www.shadesofpaper.com (http://www.shadesofpaper.com/)). A and B are Adorama and B&H, respectively.
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Years ago I had ordered a box of Velvet Fine Art 13x19 sheets from B&H. When unpacked, the box of paper was obviously dented on one corner. I called B&H immediately because I didn't want to be stuck with the paper if I broke the seal and opened the paper box. They asked me to open the box and see if the paper was actually damaged; it was. They were very good about taking it back and paying for return shipping but i was P.O.ed nonetheless because i needed the paper for a print to submit to a competition. Fortunately I was able to buy it locally but of course for more money.
I now buy most of my paper from Atlex. Their prices are very good. It always come beautifully packed either surrounded by foam peanuts or the air pocket things. And I have never had a problem with any papers that I have bought from Red River.
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We've had paper shipping issues from Red River and Brilliant brand papers. They went away when we ordered Epson brand premium paper from AI Friedman in NYC. But we order in bulk, so our stuff sometimes arrives on shipping pallets. Otherwise, the paper comes tightly packed in boxes. With the other stuff, the paper would come in huge boxes with little to no packing material. Once we opened the box, the paper corners would be bent rendering them useless in our 3880s, because the damn print heads would get stuck on the bent corners leaving nasty marks. We also experienced humidity issues in winter with the generic, non-Epson brand papers. The papers would curl in the dry air.