Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Nick Rains on November 02, 2011, 06:39:48 am

Title: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: Nick Rains on November 02, 2011, 06:39:48 am
Looks like the 30mm is finally on it's way. The lens was announced on DP review today with availability next month. I expect to get one in my hands as soon as one arrives in Australia.

The 35mm is an awesome lens but is just that little bit too restricted for my own tastes. The 30mm is the equivalent of a 24mm and is thus quite a bit wider than the 28mm equiv. coverage of the S2 35mm.

Can't wait to see it...
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: paulmoorestudio on November 02, 2011, 01:30:47 pm
I was able to handle and shoot some with it last week in nyc.
Very nice.. meaning that it appears to me like a good rectilinear lens, straight lines and no
discernable barrel distortion.. focus to about .7 meter.
I didnt come away with any of the images I shot ( was not my memory card ) but it looked
really good.. viewed a cs120 macro...nice one.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: ndevlin on November 02, 2011, 11:02:28 pm

Nick,

It's a big piece of glass, focuses very close, gives a really interesting feel wide-open -- who ever heard of good bohek on a 24mm equivalent, eh? I'm sure it will be a smashing lens for the S2 crowd.

- N.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: abiggs on November 05, 2011, 09:54:06 pm
I also saw it in NYC last week, and when I grabbed it I was thinking it was the 35mm. So it is a similar look and feel. I didn't get a chance to shoot with it, though. Based on the 30mm being an option, I would most definitely prefer the 30mm over the 35mm, based on what I shoot (landscapes).
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: DaveCurtis on November 06, 2011, 12:29:00 am
Any chance in doing a review for Lula Nick ?
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: Nick Rains on November 06, 2011, 05:58:49 am
Any chance in doing a review for Lula Nick ?
Certainly will - but I don't know when we will get them down under. I know the Leica agent has them on order but all Leica stuff is in short supply.

I'll keep you posted...
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: dfarkas on November 07, 2011, 09:52:42 am
I did get a chance to do some test shooting at Photo Plus with the 30mm and compare it to the 35mm. Here are my thoughts and a couple of comparison images with 100% crops:

A Quick test: Leica Elmarit-S 30mm f/2.8 ASPH vs. Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH (http://www.reddotforum.com/content.php/183-A-Quick-test-Leica-Elmarit-S-30mm-f-2.8-ASPH-vs.-Summarit-S-35mm-f-2.5-ASPH)

David
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 07, 2011, 05:37:14 pm
Did I read the price correctly: 7,500 US$?  I am not doubting the excellence of the 30mm Leica, but I just don't get the excitement considering the price point.

You can get 3 copies of the truly excellent Nikkor 24mm opening at f1.4 for the price of the Leica 30mm f2.5 lens alone, not to mention the new Zeiss 25mm f2.0. Both of these lenses will enable you to get less DoF when needed or more DoF when needed. They are really amazingly good lenses with a great rendering and the odds that the Leica is significantly better in real world applications are... low.

In case you don't need 3 or 4 copies of a lens... you could also decide to use that cash to buy one or two cameras. :)

Does it make sense to let MF camera manufacturers keep passing down their internal inefficiencies to photographers with such crazily inflated prices?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 07, 2011, 09:47:08 pm
You can get 3 copies of the truly excellent Nikkor 24mm opening at f1.4 for the price of the Leica 30mm f2.5 lens alone, not to mention the new Zeiss 25mm f2.0...

 ::)

Nobody's forcing you to buy, Bernard.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 08, 2011, 06:32:58 pm
Nobody's forcing you to buy, Bernard.

Indeed. Nobody is forcing to buy this lens, but I am saddened by the growing impossibility for most photographers to invest into MF because of the price inflation accross the board.

In essence this is turning into a luxury niche. Perhaps has it been the main positioning of Leica for a long time, but it is in fact in my view hurting photography as a whole more with the S2 range that I, somewhat naively, believed Leica intended to be used by more than a few millionaires.

I just hope that the good folks of Pentax understand that reason and real world constraints must drive their pricing instead of benchmarking themselves against diamond cut luxury toys. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: paulmoorestudio on November 08, 2011, 06:53:19 pm
do I want to pop 7500 bucks for a lens? no.. I don't, but that doesn't mean it is not worth it..
I don't want to buy a 70,000 alexa camera body either..but that doesn't mean there are not
professionals out there that can and do buy such things... cause..they make money from them!
I think a successful photographer doing well at his craft and business makes around 300,000 a year.. after
expenses..and yes that includes depreciation on such things as 30mm leica lenses...so lets say you need to bill 600g
to 800g to do this.. is 7500 dollars for a lens out of the question?  and if you take home 300,000 are you just
another rich millionaire?  I don't think so.
More time and effort needs to be spent by us photographers on how to maintain our fees and rights so buying
the top end equipment is not just wishful thinking. until then.. there is sigma for the average joe.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 08, 2011, 09:57:32 pm
do I want to pop 7500 bucks for a lens? no.. I don't, but that doesn't mean it is not worth it..
I don't want to buy a 70,000 alexa camera body either..but that doesn't mean there are not
professionals out there that can and do buy such things... cause..they make money from them!
I think a successful photographer doing well at his craft and business makes around 300,000 a year.. after
expenses..and yes that includes depreciation on such things as 30mm leica lenses...so lets say you need to bill 600g
to 800g to do this.. is 7500 dollars for a lens out of the question?  and if you take home 300,000 are you just
another rich millionaire?  I don't think so.
More time and effort needs to be spent by us photographers on how to maintain our fees and rights so buying
the top end equipment is not just wishful thinking. until then.. there is sigma for the average joe.

With this kind of thinking you are nearly asking the manufacturers of some key equipments with a sufficient entry barrier to raise their prices significantly...

The 30mm will be just as good and just as needed for some applications if it costs 10.000 US$. That will still be small money for some of the tens of photograpers WW making 300.000 US$, so why not make this lens 15.000 US$ in fact?...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: bcooter on November 09, 2011, 02:36:18 am
Did I read the price correctly: ////////snip


Bernard,

Have you shot Leica glass?  . . . cause Leica makes some fascinating lenses and there is a "look" to them that you can see.

Now, I know on some of their lenses, like my M series 90 the quality control is kinda messy, but $7,500 in the world of a really good lens is not that much.

An Angeneiux optimo zoom is 20 grand (U.S)  and that's not over the top, a series of ghetto priced Zeiss Mini primes is $24,000 without breathing hard and those are not considered to be in the league of Cooke or many others.

Don't get me wrong, Nikon makes some very good glass, some not as good, but I know from experience some Nikon glass doesn't get close to some cine lenses and I doubt if anyone thinks a Nikon lens is the equal of a Leica.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 09, 2011, 06:18:57 am
Have you shot Leica glass?  . . . cause Leica makes some fascinating lenses and there is a "look" to them that you can see.

Now, I know on some of their lenses, like my M series 90 the quality control is kinda messy, but $7,500 in the world of a really good lens is not that much.

An Angeneiux optimo zoom is 20 grand (U.S)  and that's not over the top, a series of ghetto priced Zeiss Mini primes is $24,000 without breathing hard and those are not considered to be in the league of Cooke or many others.

Don't get me wrong, Nikon makes some very good glass, some not as good, but I know from experience some Nikon glass doesn't get close to some cine lenses and I doubt if anyone thinks a Nikon lens is the equal of a Leica.

Hi BC,

Don't get me wrong, I am not questioning the least bit the quality of the Leica 30mm.

I have not used Leica lenses. I have used lenses from Schneider and Zeiss on various formats, but never a Leica lens for some strange reason. Let me return you the questiont though, have you used the Nikkor 24mm f1.4? It is truly a fabulous lens that is bound to enter the pantheon of 35mm lenses in terms of technical measurement, but above all in terms of look.

I am also aware that specility lenses produced in very small series for movie are very pricey. But that is the nature of B2B very small series and is probably unavoidable considering the target of these lenses.

MF is not intrinsically condemned to this niche status. It is being pushed there by very high prices and that is not a good thing for photographers in my view. That is what I am reacting against. Heck, I found the Phaseone 28mm f4.5 (I used to own one) and the Pentax 25mm f4 to be very expensive already, but at 5.000 US$ they almost looks like bargains although they go significantly wider and cover a much larger area than the Leica (full 645). And that is taking into account a historically strong yen, they should be at 4.000 US$. :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: ixania2 on November 10, 2011, 06:17:10 am
Indeed. Nobody is forcing to buy this lens, but I am saddened by the growing impossibility for most photographers to invest into MF because of the price inflation accross the board.


it's only market price. if they wouldn't sell, you would get them for $49.90
i am saddened by the price of bugatti veyron as well, which makes it more and more impossible for me to buy one. same for the estate at fisher-island and picassos.
sad, sad, sad. ;D
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 10, 2011, 07:50:32 am
... I found the Phaseone 28mm f4.5 (I used to own one) and the Pentax 25mm f4 to be very expensive already, but at 5.000 US$ they almost looks like bargains although they go significantly wider and cover a much larger area than the Leica (full 645). And that is taking into account a historically strong yen, they should be at 4.000 US$. :)

The Leica 30mm Summarit-S is an f/2.8 lens, not f/4 or f/4.5.  By your reasoning the Canon 50mm L (f/1.2) shouldn't be priced much more than the Canon Nifty Fifty (f/1.8).
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2011, 08:50:47 am
The Leica 30mm Summarit-S is an f/2.8 lens, not f/4 or f/4.5.  By your reasoning the Canon 50mm L (f/1.2) shouldn't be priced much more than the Canon Nifty Fifty (f/1.8).

I guess that the comparison of the maximum apertures would be relevant if the S2 were a real MF FF camera instead of being a mere APS version of MF. :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2011, 08:55:39 am
it's only market price. if they wouldn't sell, you would get them for $49.90
i am saddened by the price of bugatti veyron as well, which makes it more and more impossible for me to buy one. same for the estate at fisher-island and picassos.

Right... except that Bugattis have always been a luxury product while MF cameras and their lenses used not to.

But anyway, the impact is limited for me, I just wouldn't want to be a pro photographer whose work relies on the look of MF these days. I have rarely seen professional rejoy about the growing inflation of the cost of the equipment they need, but I guess that the power of the brand is strong in these parts. ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 10, 2011, 09:01:30 am
I guess that the comparison of the maximum apertures would be relevant if the S2 were a real MF FF camera instead of being a mere APS version of MF. :)

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31316
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2011, 09:17:14 am
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31316

Yes, but I am not discussing the quality of the lens, system,... that I know is excellent.

As far as the pictures linked to, I don't doubt that the full size images tell a different story, but at that size just about any decent APS camera would be able to do just as well with the right lights. Heck, I suspect that even a Canon S100 would be able to produce these images.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 10, 2011, 10:29:44 am
Yes, but I am not discussing the quality of the lens, system,... that I know is excellent.

As far as the pictures linked to, I don't doubt that the full size images tell a different story, but at that size just about any decent APS camera would be able to do just as well with the right lights. Heck, I suspect that even a Canon S100 would be able to produce these images.

 ::)
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: kers on November 10, 2011, 12:12:30 pm
-- who ever heard of good bohek on a 24mm equivalent, eh?....


here the bokeh of the 24mm nikkor 1,4 at close(st) distance at 1,4

Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: paulmoorestudio on November 10, 2011, 12:32:46 pm
I guess that the comparison of the maximum apertures would be relevant if the S2 were a real MF FF camera instead of being a mere APS version of MF. :)

Cheers,
Bernard


there is a disconnect here and you don't get it... first off, MF refers to Medium-Format right?.. and Medium-Format is from to the old days of 120 film.. if a camera took 120 it was medium format, 35mm film was small format and sheet film was large format..whether you used a handheld 4x5 graflex rangefinder or 11x14 view camera, Hey, guess what?... flim is off the commercial table now.. not relevant...done!..commercial digital cameras range from 4/3rd sensors to almost 645 80mp sensors.. seems to me that the S2 sensor size is in the middle somewhere..however I would say that it produces image quality in the old "Large-Format" range, so your comment inferring that the S2 is not up to "MF" is just a full frame of BS..Image quality matters above sensor size.
 I know there are guys(no girls would do such things) who spend a lot of time and effort trying to compare an 8x10 piece of film to the current high end 80mp and smaller multi-shot sensors and they are amazing and have replaced Large-Format work.  Also by using your MF FF definition a sinar p3 tech camera with 16mp digital back is really not "medium-format" either..please!Enough!
It is pointless to keep using these old film-era monikers.. for hand-held shooting you really don't need anything better than what the S2 provides..and it does provide it at f2.5 with a sensor/lenses twice the size of traditional slr cameras.. German glass has always been had at a premium, before AF, before weather sealing, before electronic leaf shutters, before our weak dollar.  Leica S2 lenses offer this, if you want to be shocked, try their cine lenses.. simple yet elegant manual lenses that won't even cover the S2 sensor @ around 20g per lens.. oh yeah, you have to buy it in a set of 8 focal lengths.. so, in comparison the folks in solms likely think that this AF 30mm is a deal.
Sadly too few photographers sell their work in a smart business model making the sting of new equipment less painful. I know it is an old argument but do the math on a years worth of film and processing in the old days.. most guys would say it was in the 5 digit range.. a year..if you're shooting digital now and are not billing for digital capture, etc.. that is just too damn bad..and that new sensor/camera you want to upgrade is just going to hurt.
 If you want the old quality of medium format film.. you can get yourself great camera like the contax or other and relive the 120film days of glory..But if you just want the old "medium format" price point, I personally think that both canon and nikon digital solutions have filled this area very nicely..and improved on what I use to get from my hasselblad 500cm shooting film. This is the new "medium format"..the cameras that do the mass share of commercial work. The high end hasselblads and this Leica are not for the masses.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2011, 05:03:27 pm
there is a disconnect here and you don't get it... first off, MF refers to Medium-Format right?.. and Medium-Format is from to the old days of 120 film.. if a camera took 120 it was medium format, 35mm film was small format and sheet film was large format..whether you used a handheld 4x5 graflex rangefinder or 11x14 view camera, Hey, guess what?... flim is off the commercial table now.. not relevant...done!..commercial digital cameras range from 4/3rd sensors to almost 645 80mp sensors.. seems to me that the S2 sensor size is in the middle somewhere..however I would say that it produces image quality in the old "Large-Format" range, so your comment inferring that the S2 is not up to "MF" is just a full frame of BS..Image quality matters above sensor size.

My comment was not about the camera/sensor size, it was about the lens and its image circle.

My point was that accepting the higher price of the 30mm because it is an f2.8 lens compared to the Mamiya 28mm and to the Pentax 25mm that open only at f4 is not relevant because the image circle needed to cover the S2 sensor is much smaller than the image circle needed to cover the full 645 frame addressed by the Mamiya and Pentax lenses.

I totally agree with you that the MF naming is not relevant, a D3x delivers better image quality than the MF backs dating a few years. We are on the same page so I will fortunately not have to rely on "full frame of BS" like wording.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 10, 2011, 05:11:33 pm
My comment was not about the camera/sensor size, it was about the lens and its image circle.

My point was that accepting the higher price of the 30mm because it is an f2.8 lens compared to the Mamiya 28mm and to the Pentax 25mm that open only at f4 is not relevant because the image circle needed to cover the S2 sensor is much smaller than the image circle needed to cover the full 645 frame addressed by the Mamiya and Pentax lenses.

It's also not relevant because the Mamiya and Pentax lenses are slower, and it was you who compared the cost of these lenses.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2011, 05:13:38 pm
It's also not relevant because the Mamiya and Pentax lenses are slower, and it was you who compared the cost of these lenses.

Are you saying that the size of the image circle of a lens does not have any impact on its price?

Have you ever compared the price of a 110mm Schneider 4x5 lens opening at 5.6 to that of a 35mm 110mm lens opening at f2.8? Any clue why one is twice the price? :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 10, 2011, 05:40:32 pm
Are you saying that the size of the image circle of a lens does not have any impact on its price?

Not at all.  It was you who compared the prices of slower, wider lenses with the Leica lens.  The lens speed has an impact on the price too, so if a comparison with lenses having a bigger image circle is irrelevant (your words) then your comparison with slower lenses is also irrelevant.  IMHO it's better to compare results, not spec sheets.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2011, 05:44:13 pm
Not at all.  It was you who compared the prices of slower, wider lenses with the Leica lens.  The lens speed has an impact on the price too, so if a comparison with lenses having a bigger image circle is irrelevant (your words) then your comparison with slower lenses is also irrelevant.  IMHO it's better to compare results, not spec sheets.

OK, fine, the 30mm f2.8 is an amazing bargain.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 10, 2011, 05:47:15 pm
OK, fine, the 30mm f2.8 is an amazing bargain.

I don't think we can reach that conclusion from the available information.  We haven't seen its performance yet.  What we do know is that it fits the S2 with full function (AF and aperture).  There aren't a lot of other lenses with its angular coverage that do that, and for some uses working on the S2 is a sufficient advantage.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2011, 05:51:19 pm
I don't think we can reach that conclusion from the available information.  We haven't seen its performance yet.

I don't doubt that it is going to be an excellent lens and that it is going to be appealing for S2 users.

A 30mm f2.8 with that size of image circle shouldn't be a particularly challenging design to start with as we have seen from various 35mm T/S lenses covering at least the S2 sensor size with excellent results accross the frame.

Anything short of near perfection would be surprising even at half that price.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 10, 2011, 06:36:13 pm
I don't doubt that it is going to be an excellent lens and that it is going to be appealing for S2 users.

A 30mm f2.8 with that size of image circle shouldn't be a particularly challenging design to start with as we have seen from various 35mm T/S lenses covering at least the S2 sensor size with excellent results accross the frame.

Anything short of near perfection would be surprising even at half that price.

If you believe it's over-priced there's nothing stopping you or anyone else from designing, manufacturing and marketing a competing lens that sells for less.  The trick is to do it profitably.  If it is truly over priced, and someone else can make a comparable lens for less, and there's enough of a market to recover development costs, there's money to be made.  Let's see if anyone steps up to the plate  :D
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2011, 07:47:08 pm
If you believe it's over-priced there's nothing stopping you or anyone else from designing, manufacturing and marketing a competing lens that sells for less.  The trick is to do it profitably.  If it is truly over priced, and someone else can make a comparable lens for less, and there's enough of a market to recover development costs, there's money to be made.  Let's see if anyone steps up to the plate  :D

Sure, but this is not just about one lens. This one lens is just another stepping stone contributing to the global increase of MF equipment cost.

It is a vicious circle where higher prices reduce demand which in turns increases the impact of fixed cost in the price of equipment.

Nobody will try to make lenses for the S2 because the very price of the system makes it too unaffordable.

Pentax is showing the way with the 645D, similar or better performance than the S2 at 1/2 to 1/3rd the price (depending on the market, the 645D is more than 3 times cheaper in Japan) and much cheaper lenses. But anyway, I'll stop here, I am not the main victim of this folly, I am just surprised to see so many smart photographers accept this as unavoidable.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 10, 2011, 10:03:19 pm

Pentax is showing the way with the 645D, similar or better performance than the S2 at 1/2 to 1/3rd the price (depending on the market, the 645D is more than 3 times cheaper in Japan) and much cheaper lenses. But anyway, I'll stop here, I am not the main victim of this folly, I am just surprised to see so many smart photographers accept this as unavoidable.

You've compared S-system lenses with Pentax lenses and found them similar or better?  That's not what I've been reading.  Several people have adapted Pentax 645 and 67 lenses to the S2 and found the results vary widely, from quite good to quite disappointing.  Cheaper is the one thing that's consistent about the Pentax medium-format lenses.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: mtomalty on November 11, 2011, 12:27:25 am

And expensive is one constant in the Leica brand

What a hilarious pissing match

In the blue corner we have Bernard who doesn't appear to own the camera he's defending
and in the red corner we have Doug defending the camera he doesn't appear to own

Mark
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 11, 2011, 12:48:01 am
What a hilarious pissing match

In the blue corner we have Bernard who doesn't appear to own the camera he's defending
and in the red corner we have Doug defending the camera he doesn't appear to own

Dear referee,

What are the odds?

This being said, I am not defending any camera here, just using one as a reference for common sense. Anyway, time is up.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 11, 2011, 07:44:56 am
And expensive is one constant in the Leica brand

So far another constant about the S lenses is performance.

What a hilarious pissing match

In the blue corner we have Bernard who doesn't appear to own the camera he's defending
and in the red corner we have Doug defending the camera he doesn't appear to own

Mark

I'm not defending anything except accuracy.  Accuracy is missing from Bernard's claims.

Bernard wrote: "similar or better performance than the S2 at 1/2 to 1/3rd the price"

Price?  OK, that's accurate.  Performance?  Where does he get that data?  The comparisons I've seen contradict his claim.  If he want to substantiate his claim that the 30mm S lens is over priced he needs to demonstrate that comparable performance is available for less money.  We don't know how well the S lens performs (we can guess) so it's difficult to compare its performance with anything else, and consequently Bernard's claims can't be substantiated.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 11, 2011, 10:05:14 am
So far another constant about the S lenses is performance.

I'm not defending anything except accuracy.  Accuracy is missing from Bernard's claims.

Bernard wrote: "similar or better performance than the S2 at 1/2 to 1/3rd the price"

Price?  OK, that's accurate.  Performance?  Where does he get that data?  The comparisons I've seen contradict his claim. 

That is factual for the body, right? :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 11, 2011, 11:22:32 am
That is factual for the body, right? :)

Since I haven't used either the 645D or the S2 I can't say anything about performance.  Price is easier to compare.

My evaluation of a camera body's performance is more subjective than for a lens.  There are numerous performance metrics that can be compared directly but usability and handling in my typical use of a camera are another factor in my evaluation of a camera's "worth".  A $10k camera that has equal objective performance metrics to a $22k camera is not necessarily a better value if the user interface grates on my nerves.  So unless I've used both cameras I have no information make comparative valuations.

Now let's suppose the $10k camera body performs as well as the $22K body in all respects - would that make it a better value?  Not unless the lenses for both cameras are equivalent.  The comparisons I've seen of S lenses with Pentax lenses do not support your claim that their performance is similar or better.  Some of the Pentax lenses are quite good, some are not.  The S lenses tested to date have all been outstanding.  If your work requires the performance of the S lenses saving $12k on a body that can't use them is a false economy.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: tsjanik on November 11, 2011, 02:45:30 pm
Since I haven't used either the 645D or the S2 I can't say anything about performance.  Price is easier to compare.

My evaluation of a camera body's performance is more subjective than for a lens.  There are numerous performance metrics that can be compared directly but usability and handling in my typical use of a camera are another factor in my evaluation of a camera's "worth".  A $10k camera that has equal objective performance metrics to a $22k camera is not necessarily a better value if the user interface grates on my nerves.  So unless I've used both cameras I have no information make comparative valuations.

Now let's suppose the $10k camera body performs as well as the $22K body in all respects - would that make it a better value?  Not unless the lenses for both cameras are equivalent.  The comparisons I've seen of S lenses with Pentax lenses do not support your claim that their performance is similar or better.  Some of the Pentax lenses are quite good, some are not.  The S lenses tested to date have all been outstanding.  If your work requires the performance of the S lenses saving $12k on a body that can't use them is a false economy.
Doug:
Lloyd Chambers has extensive reviews of both the 645D and S2 on his subscription site.  If you are interested in either of these cameras, his observations are worth the $39:
http://diglloyd.com/index-dap.html       
http://diglloyd.com/index-leica.html
I don’t believe he would object to my telling you that he prefers the usability and sensor of the 645D.  He loves the Leica lenses of course, but he also loved the Pentax 120mm A, a used copy of which will cost $450 at KEH.

Tom
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 11, 2011, 03:48:33 pm

Lloyd Chambers has extensive reviews of both the 645D and S2 on his subscription site.  If you are interested in either of these cameras, his observations are worth the $39:
http://diglloyd.com/index-dap.html      
http://diglloyd.com/index-leica.html
I don’t believe he would object to my telling you that he prefers the usability and sensor of the 645D.

Unfortunately that doesn't tell me which I would prefer for my working habits and conditions.

I'm mostly interested in long lenses (350mm+), which neither system has yet.  The long Pentax lenses seem to be among the weakest of the legacy models, and there's no new model.  Best bet for me would be adapting a Zeiss Superachromat or Leica Modular APO (which covers the S2's sensor with either the 1.4x or 2x focus modules) to one of these bodies.  The Zeiss 350 f/5.6 Superachromat and the Leica 400mm f/4 APO have both been adapted to the S2 with very satisfactory results.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: tsjanik on November 11, 2011, 04:19:58 pm
........I'm mostly interested in long lenses (350mm+), which neither system has yet.  The long Pentax lenses seem to be among the weakest of the legacy models,.........

Hi Doug:
I don’t know why you have that impression concerning longer lenses.  Another of the Pentax lenses Lloyd found outstanding was the 645 400mm ED(IF) autofocus.   I have that lens and my experience concurs with his.  I have also used the 67 300mm ED on the 645D with excellent results. The 645 300mm ED f/4 or f/5.6  and 67 400mm f/4 ED are reported to be excellent as well.   A 645 600mm A* f/5.6 (another reportedly outstanding lens) just sold on ebay for $3700. Here’s an example with the 400mm and using the AF to track a Common Merganser (handheld).
Tom
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5026/5606123796_0c31909dbe_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/5606123796/)
takeoff (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/5606123796/) by tsjanik47 (http://www.flickr.com/people/21294128@N08/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: smhoer on November 11, 2011, 04:38:51 pm
"........I'm mostly interested in long lenses (350mm+), which neither system has yet.  The long Pentax lenses seem to be among the weakest of the legacy models,........."

Not sure where that comes from as my understanding is Pentax is known for their long glass.  I have been very impressed with the 200, 300 and 400 FA.  Would love to get my hands on one of their longer lenses but don't think the handcart I would need would do well on trails.  The variability in the shorter lenses (except the macro) is a given.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: Nick Rains on November 12, 2011, 12:37:09 am
Here's a little perspective.

Leica S2 lenses are expensive to make - fact. They are hand-made to extremely high standards of image quality (check the MTF charts) and reliability, also a fact.

In the usual scheme of things such items would be hard to sell because people will always look for a price comparison with something that is cheaper and, on paper, similar. The trouble with that line of thought is that there is nothing 'similar' to any of the S2 lenses, so all comparisons are pointless - they cost what they cost.

Furthermore, given that Leica sells every single lens they make, and indeed have a waiting list, it's a bit harsh to accuse them of 'overpricing' their product because its quite likely they would still sell at even higher prices.

Did you see the price of those new Canon T1.3 cinema primes - $6700. A lot of money for a lot of lens but can you say they are overpriced?
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 12, 2011, 02:44:27 am
Hi,

Another way to see it is that the correct price is the highest one customers are willing to pay.  The 25/4 for the Pentax 645D is priced at 5000 USD just to set it into perspective.

I'm not so positive on the reliability issue. Both Lloyd Chambers and Mark Dubovoy had problems with failing apertures on one of their lenses, that is a significant portion of a small sample. It's probably a design issue, but Leica should have discovered it in their own testing.

Best regards
Erik



Here's a little perspective.

Leica S2 lenses are expensive to make - fact. They are hand-made to extremely high standards of image quality (check the MTF charts) and reliability, also a fact.

In the usual scheme of things such items would be hard to sell because people will always look for a price comparison with something that is cheaper and, on paper, similar. The trouble with that line of thought is that there is nothing 'similar' to any of the S2 lenses, so all comparisons are pointless - they cost what they cost.

Furthermore, given that Leica sells every single lens they make, and indeed have a waiting list, it's a bit harsh to accuse them of 'overpricing' their product because its quite likely they would still sell at even higher prices.

Did you see the price of those new Canon T1.3 cinema primes - $6700. A lot of money for a lot of lens but can you say they are overpriced?
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: eronald on November 12, 2011, 06:28:09 am
I dislike the fact that good optics are used to lock people into hopeless systems which soon disappear. Maybe it's time for an open MF mount.

Edmund

Hi,

Another way to see it is that the correct price is the highest one customers are willing to pay.  The 25/4 for the Pentax 645D is priced at 5000 USD just to set it into perspective.

I'm not so positive on the reliability issue. Both Lloyd Chambers and Mark Dubovoy had problems with failing apertures on one of their lenses, that is a significant portion of a small sample. It's probably a design issue, but Leica should have discovered it in their own testing.

Best regards
Erik



Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: Nick Rains on November 13, 2011, 06:48:22 am
Hi,

my biggest critique is that the Leica S2-System doesn't allow to use film when needed. All other camera professional camera systems offer that option.

Best,
Johannes

If that's the biggest criticism then Leica obviously got it pretty much right. If film is such a critical need then no doubt an older MF camera could be found without too much trouble, or cost. I still have an RZ outfit that i paid $20000 for in 1996 (about $30000 in 2011 values) in case such a need eventuates.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: Gigi on November 13, 2011, 12:57:38 pm
Leica chose to give that up as:

a) its not used that much anymore - people tend to go one way or the other.
b) there are other systems for that - they wanted a smaller camera.
c) any changing in the guts of the camera can throw off alignment, a key factor for sharpness.

This is likely due to their experience with the DMR, where they tried to do both, and found (probably) it wasn't worth the hassle. The S2 isn't a full fledged modular system. Its a compact MF system, with a very specific set of goals. It reaches those well, but not the others.

Its the 2x3 format that is less than ideal.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: Nick Rains on November 13, 2011, 05:38:12 pm

You might laugh because I still do some work on film. But I do and it is a big thing to have two systems ready.

Best,
Johannes

Not laughing really - if you need to shoot film then that's fair enough.

No camera system suits everyone, and since so few people genuinely need film backs these days I can understand why Leica chose to move on. For me, the advantages of a locked down sensor mount outweighs the loss of the film option, for you it's a deal breaker.

Geoffreyg: why do you think the 2:3 format is less than ideal?
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: Gigi on November 13, 2011, 09:22:02 pm
Nick -

re: 2:3 format - I wish I had a good answer for you. Have shot for many years with an M2, and loved it. Then moved to 6x6, with some affection for 4x5, and worked composition harder for a long time. Both of these are elegant proportions. Along these lines, 4:3  is acceptable, but the 2:3 less so. Theres something forced in 2:3, the long side is always driving the other side, and not necessarily gently either. Is this a subjective opinion? Absolutely, no doubt about it.

For some shots, its fine, and can even work nicely. But for compositional excellence, it just doesn't feel right. There. Said it, flames to begin. 

Geoff
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 13, 2011, 11:32:47 pm
Hi,

Each subject requires a different crop and I guess that we need to live with cropped images. A formats in Europe are 2:2.828. HDTV is 16x9, that is 2:3.555. I'd expect that presentation will be affected by HDTV, as all modern motion is HD and most computer screens are also HD. So the way the images are used mostly is pretty close to 2:3.

Best regards
Erik

Nick -

re: 2:3 format - I wish I had a good answer for you. Have shot for many years with an M2, and loved it. Then moved to 6x6, with some affection for 4x5, and worked composition harder for a long time. Both of these are elegant proportions. Along these lines, 4:3  is acceptable, but the 2:3 less so. Theres something forced in 2:3, the long side is always driving the other side, and not necessarily gently either. Is this a subjective opinion? Absolutely, no doubt about it.

For some shots, its fine, and can even work nicely. But for compositional excellence, it just doesn't feel right. There. Said it, flames to begin. 

Geoff
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: eronald on November 14, 2011, 02:39:55 am
I still think it would be nice if there was a "PL mount" for MF, a mount for which we could buy superb glass, and then change bodies and at least be able to use MF, auto diaphragm, maybe even use AF and leaf shutters.

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: Nick Rains on November 14, 2011, 03:26:33 am
I still think it would be nice if there was a "PL mount" for MF, a mount for which we could buy superb glass, and then change bodies and at least be able to use MF, auto diaphragm, maybe even use AF and leaf shutters.

Edmund

+1 - I'd love to put the S2 lenses on an IQ180. That would sing.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 14, 2011, 03:31:10 am
+1 - I'd love to put the S2 lenses on an IQ180. That would sing.

Does their image circle cover the size of the IQ180 sensor?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: Nick Rains on November 14, 2011, 03:40:49 am
Does their image circle cover the size of the IQ180 sensor?

Cheers,
Bernard


Good point! Don't know, probably not.

 :-\
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: paratom on November 14, 2011, 08:38:11 am
Hi Bernhard,
the only problem is that the Nikon 24/1,4 doesnt work on MF and that the Nikon bodies do not produce the same IQ as a MF camera like the S2.
So if you are after the last little bit of IQ it gets expensive, and we all know that the last 1% IQ gain will increase the price much more than 1%.
I am quite happy with the S2 IQ that I even use it a lot for "shooting" my kids instead of using the D700 with a much faster AF and lower weight/size. Ihave used a Sinar 22MP back on a Hy6 and a  D3x side by side for some time and same here - Personally I found that I prefered the IQ from the MF back.
How much comes from the sensor and how much from the lenses I am not sure. And how much money it is worth???? Everybody must answer his own.
IMO the IQ from the Nikon is excellent, and the one from the MF is even a slightly little bit better.




Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: eronald on November 14, 2011, 08:55:34 am

Other than that Leica at least has the advantage that the value of lenses is pretty stable these days.



Owners of the R system have written off their lens investment.
Owners of the M system can see the Photokina 2012 cliff approach.
Bertrand Russell's turkey got fed every day, and concluded it would get fed every day. The farmer's wife had thanksgiving marked on her diary. Actually I think Russell talked about a chicken, but who cares, it might have been an S system buyer  ;D

Edmund

PS. My pictures haven't got much better since I got my first batch of expensive gear. My advice to newbies would be to get something that is considered a universal "pro" camera (Nikon, Canon), and then just use it until it literally falls apart.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: paratom on November 14, 2011, 09:01:18 am
Owners of the R system have written off their lens investment.
Owners of the M system can see the Photokina 2012 cliff approach.
Bertrand Russell's turkey got fed every day, and concluded it would get fed every day. The farmer's wife had thanksgiving marked on her diary. Actually I think Russell talked about a chicken, but who cares, it might have been an S system buyer  ;D

Edmund

Ha, I guess you are totally right with the R system lenses (could change though).
But dont we all know these kind of discussions are just for fun anyways since we all buy what we want to buy and one can find arguements for each and any theory/decission.
I once bought a Noctilux before the r-d1 and M8 were announced for 900 Euro ;)
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 14, 2011, 09:08:43 am
Owners of the R system have written off their lens investment.

How do you figure that?  I'd double the money spent if I were foolish enough to sell my R lenses.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: eronald on November 14, 2011, 09:30:13 am
How do you figure that?  I'd double the money spent if I were foolish enough to sell my R lenses.

And you can still use them with film - provided you can get the film  ;D

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: paulmoorestudio on November 14, 2011, 10:14:19 am
Hi,

my biggest critique is that the Leica S2-System doesn't allow to use film when needed. All other camera professional camera systems offer that option.

Best,
Johannes

just curious as to what need is still met with film?  Film is so off my radar now and would like to know what area/ situation in which traditional film would be the preferred medium??
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: theguywitha645d on November 14, 2011, 10:20:11 am
Film is so off my radar now and would like to know what area/ situation in which traditional film would be the preferred medium??

When film is preferred. Process does impart qualities.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: paulmoorestudio on November 14, 2011, 10:23:29 am
When film is preferred. Process does impart qualities.

that cleared it up for me.. thanks!
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 14, 2011, 10:32:05 am
And you can still use them with film - provided you can get the film  ;D

They can also be used on Sony, Nikon, Pentax, Canon and RED cameras: http://leitax.com/
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 14, 2011, 10:34:59 am

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5026/5606123796_0c31909dbe_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/5606123796/)
takeoff (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/5606123796/) by tsjanik47 (http://www.flickr.com/people/21294128@N08/), on Flickr


This web-sized jpg photo is not convincing.  I prefer sharp frame-filling photos.

(http://www.wildlightphoto.com/birds/anatidae/come13.jpg)
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: theguywitha645d on November 14, 2011, 10:38:55 am
Doug, what is the source of your information that Pentax telephoto lenses are not good? Tom, is not a wildlife photographer, he was just trying to help you out.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: theguywitha645d on November 14, 2011, 10:49:13 am
that cleared it up for me.. thanks!


What do you expect for an answer? Except for a few types of photography or professional requirements, there is no "correct" method of making images. I just saw an exhibition of Ambrotypes.

With Bernard and Edmund and the film guy, this thread is really just turning into a troll.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: ondebanks on November 14, 2011, 10:59:34 am
just curious as to what need is still met with film?  Film is so off my radar now and would like to know what area/ situation in which traditional film would be the preferred medium??

Well, here's one need; niche-y perhaps, but no less important because of that. Film gives you more spectral flexibility than a digital sensor with factory-fixed filtration (such as in the S2, or any DSLR or EVIL).

I shot the example below on MF film (Kodak E200). The only way to get the red colour of the nebulae (at 656 nm wavelength) from a digital camera is to hack into the camera hardware: remove the IR-blocking filter altogether or replace it with a broader-bandpass one. This costs money (unless you're brave enough to do it yourself), violates the warranty, puts you in dubious territory regarding insurance cover, hits the resale value, and condemns you to setting unconventional custom white balances for all your daytime photography. Would you be willing to do this with the likes of an S2?!

Or, you could let the camera be, and load it with a €4 roll of E200... :)

Ray

Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 14, 2011, 11:01:02 am
Doug, what is the source of your information that Pentax telephoto lenses are not good? Tom, is not a wildlife photographer, he was just trying to help you out.

I didn't say that all Pentax telephoto lenses are not good, just that some are disappointing.

http://www.reddotforum.com/showthread.php/215-Leica-S2-meets-the-Leica-APO-Telyt-Modular-R-400mm-f-4!

Quoting David Farkas: "Our 400mm P67 lens has been on loan to a forum member here and is on its way back to us for comparative testing. Even without a side-by-side, it's safe to say that the Leica eats the Pentax lens for lunch. Much, much sharper. Easier to focus. Better contrast. Better build quality. The Leica can be used wide-open without penalty. The Pentax really needs to be shot at f/6.3 or f/8 to extract the best sharpness and then you are fighting shutter speed."

Quoting photophil: "My Pentax 400mm tests confirm that the performance is disappointing wide open but greatly improves stopped down 2 stops and even better at 3 stops"
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: tsjanik on November 14, 2011, 09:31:50 pm
This web-sized jpg photo is not convincing.  I prefer sharp frame-filling photos.



Doug:

Nice shot.

I’m not sure I’d judge the sharpness of a lens based on a cropped, handheld, medium format shot with a 400mm lens.  I thought the image might interest you based on your signature and that it demonstrates good tracking AF, somewhat rare for medium format. 
I have found the lens can resolve to the limit of the sensor in my tests.
It appears you’ve made your choices and are simply looking for collaborative evidence.

Good luck,

Tom
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 14, 2011, 10:14:48 pm
I’m not sure I’d judge the sharpness of a lens based on a cropped, handheld, medium format shot with a 400mm lens.

I agree completely.

I thought the image might interest you based on your signature and that it demonstrates good tracking AF

I appreciate the thought.  However I don't use AF and the posted photo, at least in a web-sized jpg, doesn't provide convincing evidence of its value.

The Pentax 67 400m lens' performance, as reported by others, is disappointing to me because I was hoping for a reasonably (for medium format) priced option at this focal length.  Excellent performance stopped down but not at full aperture isn't what I'm looking for.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: grabshot on November 16, 2011, 12:59:19 pm
just curious as to what need is still met with film?  Film is so off my radar now and would like to know what area/ situation in which traditional film would be the preferred medium??

If you have to ask...
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: paulmoorestudio on November 16, 2011, 02:30:23 pm
If you have to ask...

ok I get the ir while shooting neubula thing.. will keep that in mind when shooting those!..
..But for the life of me I can't fill in the blank on the above quote. I have shot film, almost every brand, stock and format made since 1971, so I have some grasp of film's capabilities and I don't think
that much has changed at kodak/fuji since 2005 when I stopped shooting it.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: eronald on November 16, 2011, 03:51:41 pm
This here is the most hardcore set of Medium Format users on the net, people here have the most exotic stuff and no one has actually got an S2?
Does that say something about the S2?

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: telyt on November 16, 2011, 03:55:47 pm
This here is the most hardcore set of Medium Format users on the net, people here have the most exotic stuff and no one has actually got an S2?
Does that say something about the S2?

I believe it says more about your perception.  This thread was started by an S2 user.

It may also say something about this forum.  Usually any mention of the S2 on this forum is met with hostility and complaints that it's over priced.  Most S2 users who are participating in internet forums are elsewhere.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 16, 2011, 04:03:42 pm
Situations with extreme highlights. Negative film may handle some situations differently than sensors.

BR
Erik

If you have to ask...
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: Nick Rains on November 16, 2011, 04:22:46 pm
This here is the most hardcore set of Medium Format users on the net, people here have the most exotic stuff and no one has actually got an S2?
Does that say something about the S2?

Edmund

I have been shooting with the S2 for the past year. I am exceedingly happy with it.

I am off on a shoot tomorrow to Western Australia for a week and we have our own light plane to use. The s2 excels at aerial work over any other MF system because I can happily shoot at f2.8 with the 70mm or 120mm and keep my shutter speeds way high. Some of my colleagues have IQ180s and will struggle with ISO35 and slow lenses. Having said that I cannot compete when the tripods come out, 80MP trumps 40MP when we do our big prints.

No camera is perfect for all situations - I am finding the S2 is simply a very fine camera that does all I ask of it. And the lenses are second to none.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: eronald on November 16, 2011, 06:01:41 pm
Sorry Nick -
 Happy you're happy!
 Peace.

Edmund

I have been shooting with the S2 for the past year. I am exceedingly happy with it.

I am off on a shoot tomorrow to Western Australia for a week and we have our own light plane to use. The s2 excels at aerial work over any other MF system because I can happily shoot at f2.8 with the 70mm or 120mm and keep my shutter speeds way high. Some of my colleagues have IQ180s and will struggle with ISO35 and slow lenses. Having said that I cannot compete when the tripods come out, 80MP trumps 40MP when we do our big prints.

No camera is perfect for all situations - I am finding the S2 is simply a very fine camera that does all I ask of it. And the lenses are second to none.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: paratom on November 16, 2011, 06:37:03 pm
#3 happy S2 (+Nikon) user here.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: paulmoorestudio on November 16, 2011, 06:48:24 pm
Situations with extreme highlights. Negative film may handle some situations differently than sensors.

BR
Erik

sadly the world of the negative is not very practical.. it just is not the best viewing medium, my clients were never very good at reading a properly exposed negative.. so it and transparencies gets digitized, and now we are back in the digital world.. all roads lead to pixels.. and really lets not even begin the discussion of traditional print latitudes. So not to beat a dead horse but..the fact that the  S2 will never have film in it is not a negative..no pun intended.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: Dennis Carbo on November 16, 2011, 08:55:58 pm
ok I get the ir while shooting neubula thing.. will keep that in mind when shooting those!..
..But for the life of me I can't fill in the blank on the above quote. I have shot film, almost every brand, stock and format made since 1971, so I have some grasp of film's capabilities and I don't think
that much has changed at kodak/fuji since 2005 when I stopped shooting it.
I use a 4 x 5 Speed Graphics / Aero Ektar (178mm/f2.5) for portrait work on occasion - it give a unique look none of my Digital Equipment or processing techniques match to my satisfaction. I own it and film is cheap so if I want that look I shoot film.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: HCHeyerdahl on November 19, 2011, 02:22:23 am
#3 happy S2 (+Nikon) user here.
Nick and Paratom,

I am currently a Nikon user and considering the Leica S2. May I ask your opinion on the difference in image quality and what you consider to be the max usable ISO while still maintaining the difference?

Christopher 
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: Nick Rains on November 19, 2011, 03:02:00 am
I will shoot at up to ISO640 and I have 20x30 inch prints that show essentially zero noise.There is noise there of course, if you go looking for it, but you can do plenty to the file before it becomes visible in a print. The highest ISO, 1250, shows a visible drop in IQ - but it's still completely usable for more modest sized prints.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: HCHeyerdahl on November 19, 2011, 03:39:07 am
I will shoot at up to ISO640 and I have 20x30 inch prints that show essentially zero noise.There is noise there of course, if you go looking for it, but you can do plenty to the file before it becomes visible in a print. The highest ISO, 1250, shows a visible drop in IQ - but it's still completely usable for more modest sized prints.

Thank,

but what is your opinion on the image quality (prints) compared to your FF Canons? Is it clearly better at ISO 640 or only at say ISO 100?

Christopher
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: Nick Rains on November 19, 2011, 03:50:39 am
The IQ of the S2 is completely superior to a 5D2 in a 20x30 inch print under just about all circumstances. Smaller prints narrow the gap of course. 16 bit capture helps, the files are more robust than DSLR files and have more useable shadow detail.

I'm not sure what you want to know - the S2 produces superior IQ to a Canon, that's why you spend the big bucks. The Canon can certainly do amazing work, but all things being equal, the S2 has a bigger sensor, better DR, better lenses and thus produces better results.

To specifically answer your last question - prints from the S2 at ISO640 are indeed better than those from a 5D2 at ISO640. The bigger the print, the easier it is to tell them apart.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2011, 11:57:40 am
Hi,

There are no magic tricks Nikon and Canon can do, except reducing readout noise. Having a larger sensor will always be an advantage. It collects more photons. Sharpness will be better because each detail will have a larger size on the sensor. The Leica may also have better lenses, at least in some cases.

The other question is if you that image quality and if you can afford it?

I'd recommend that you check out this comparison of Nikon D3X and Pentax 645D based on images from Imaging Resource: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/51-a-closer-look-at-pentax-645d-image-quality

It contains images scanned from large size prints.

Also check Miles Hecker's excellent reviews: http://wyofoto.com/Pentax_645D/Pentax_645D_review_pt1.html and http://wyofoto.com/Pentax_645D/Pentax_645D_review_pt2.html

Obviously, Pentax does not have the same lens quality as Leica, but other than that the cameras are quite comparable. Electronically I got the impression that the Pentax is very good.

Best regards
Erik


The IQ of the S2 is completely superior to a 5D2 in a 20x30 inch print under just about all circumstances. Smaller prints narrow the gap of course. 16 bit capture helps, the files are more robust than DSLR files and have more useable shadow detail.

I'm not sure what you want to know - the S2 produces superior IQ to a Canon, that's why you spend the big bucks. The Canon can certainly do amazing work, but all things being equal, the S2 has a bigger sensor, better DR, better lenses and thus produces better results.

To specifically answer your last question - prints from the S2 at ISO640 are indeed better than those from a 5D2 at ISO640. The bigger the print, the easier it is to tell them apart.
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: HCHeyerdahl on November 21, 2011, 01:57:41 am
I'm not sure what you want to know -
Thanks,
What do I want to know? Well, I guess I am sort of trying to justify for myself that jumping to the S-system is the right thing to do. I am currently using a D3 with mostly the 24-70 and i print on a 24 inch Hp Z3200ps. The results I get are quite satisfying.

However, I have become increasingly interested in how my camera reproduces the image I capture.  I have added my first prime a 200mm f 2, and to my eye the images taken with this lens quite consistently have a “better look” and it also carries over to the final print. To my eye, it is just more pleasing. Now, where do I go from here?

I could add more primes to my Nikon kit and upgrade to a D4 or D4x. However, that is a serious amount of money that could bring me quite a step towards MF territory. Maybe MF is a better way to go. I know there are several options, but from what I read S2 users appear to be more consistently satisfied with the lenses. If I like “ the look” (looks good on the web, but I have yet to see a print), then Leica´s seeming commitment to consistently produce superb lenses that adhere to a “certain look” would save me a lot of time from having to trying this and that odd lens. Prehaps a S2 with the awaited zoom lens would be ideal?

However, when I look at images comparing the S2 and D3x  on the links from Eric or on DigLoyd, I am amazed at how good the D3x actually is. But I have a feeling these comparings mostly show differences in resolution.  I am really more interested in the overall look and “feeling” the image gives, and to compare that I guess I will have to shoot and process som images of my own and compare the results.

One thing holding me back is the performance at high ISO, so I keep lurking in the forums asking users of Nikon and S2 about their experience. From what I gather ISO 640 seems to be the current max if I want optimal results. That is a bit short of what I want. There may be some updates to improve on this, or maybe I will have to hang out for the S3? Just can´t make up my mind 

Thanks again for your replies, Christopher.


Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: dfarkas on November 21, 2011, 11:10:26 am
Thanks,
What do I want to know? Well, I guess I am sort of trying to justify for myself that jumping to the S-system is the right thing to do. I am currently using a D3 with mostly the 24-70 and i print on a 24 inch Hp Z3200ps. The results I get are quite satisfying.

However, I have become increasingly interested in how my camera reproduces the image I capture.  I have added my first prime a 200mm f 2, and to my eye the images taken with this lens quite consistently have a “better look” and it also carries over to the final print. To my eye, it is just more pleasing. Now, where do I go from here?

I could add more primes to my Nikon kit and upgrade to a D4 or D4x. However, that is a serious amount of money that could bring me quite a step towards MF territory. Maybe MF is a better way to go. I know there are several options, but from what I read S2 users appear to be more consistently satisfied with the lenses. If I like “ the look” (looks good on the web, but I have yet to see a print), then Leica´s seeming commitment to consistently produce superb lenses that adhere to a “certain look” would save me a lot of time from having to trying this and that odd lens. Prehaps a S2 with the awaited zoom lens would be ideal?

However, when I look at images comparing the S2 and D3x  on the links from Eric or on DigLoyd, I am amazed at how good the D3x actually is. But I have a feeling these comparings mostly show differences in resolution.  I am really more interested in the overall look and “feeling” the image gives, and to compare that I guess I will have to shoot and process som images of my own and compare the results.

One thing holding me back is the performance at high ISO, so I keep lurking in the forums asking users of Nikon and S2 about their experience. From what I gather ISO 640 seems to be the current max if I want optimal results. That is a bit short of what I want. There may be some updates to improve on this, or maybe I will have to hang out for the S3? Just can´t make up my mind 

Thanks again for your replies, Christopher.


I do think the best bet is to try the S2 for yourself, see how the camera handles for your shooting, and ultimately process and print files that you have made yourself. If you are in the US, you can test drive one:

Leica S2 Professional Rental | Dale Photo & Digital (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/page/1014/Leica_S2_Professional_Rental_Dale_Photo_Digital.htm)

As far as high ISO on the S2, we did a test of ISO performance a while back. Included with the test are the original DNG files as well as the Lightroom presets used to process each ISO setting.

Maximizing High ISO Performance on the Leica S2 (http://www.reddotforum.com/content.php/160-Maximizing-High-ISO-Performance-on-the-Leica-S2)

If you have any specific questions on the S2, I am happy to help. There is also a fairly large group of Leica S2 users/owners at our Red Dot Forum community (http://www.reddotofurm.com/forum.php), who are generally happy to share their own experiences. Many have made exactly the same transition you are looking to do.

Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 21, 2011, 04:34:49 pm
However, when I look at images comparing the S2 and D3x  on the links from Eric or on DigLoyd, I am amazed at how good the D3x actually is. But I have a feeling these comparings mostly show differences in resolution.  I am really more interested in the overall look and “feeling” the image gives, and to compare that I guess I will have to shoot and process som images of my own and compare the results.

It really is a matter of value. The Leica route is probably going to cost you an additional 30.000 US$ at initial purchase and 5.000 US$ more average per year when factoring in upgrades and possible lenses purchase.

I would personnally wait a few more weeks until the rumored D800 is announced/ships and compare the price of that body + an Ocean optics 60mm macro lens to that of the Leica system in terms of image quality in screen and on print. Then you can decide if the additional price is worth it, or if a car would be more useful. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 21, 2011, 05:00:42 pm
Hi,

I guess that the Leica has some advantage due to the larger sensor and possibly better lenses. But you need also consider the cost. I expect the upcoming Nikon D800 to be attractively priced. The Zeiss lenses don't autofocus but some of them offer very good image quality at a very decent price, 21/2.8 and 100/2 macro come to mind. The D800 will have live view and the S2 has not.

Sharpness/resolution is not the only parameter. There is also control of flare and ghosting. My guess is that Nikon may actually be best in that area. Color is more decided in processing, but I have heard some rumors that Nikon may have not as good color as Sony. Color rendition is related to filter characteristics and there can be a trade off between narrow filters and high ISO performance.

Miles Hecker presented some landscape images taken under the same condition with Nikon D3X and Pentax 645D, these image were very different.

Best regards
Erik

It really is a matter of value. The Leica route is probably going to cost you an additional 30.000 US$ at initial purchase and 5.000 US$ more average per year when factoring in upgrades and possible lenses purchase.

I would personnally wait a few more weeks until the rumored D800 is announced/ships and compare the price of that body + an Ocean optics 60mm macro lens to that of the Leica system in terms of image quality in screen and on print. Then you can decide if the additional price is worth it, or if a car would be more useful. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard

Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: paratom on November 21, 2011, 05:13:21 pm
Thanks,
What do I want to know? Well, I guess I am sort of trying to justify for myself that jumping to the S-system is the right thing to do. I am currently using a D3 with mostly the 24-70 and i print on a 24 inch Hp Z3200ps. The results I get are quite satisfying.

However, I have become increasingly interested in how my camera reproduces the image I capture.  I have added my first prime a 200mm f 2, and to my eye the images taken with this lens quite consistently have a “better look” and it also carries over to the final print. To my eye, it is just more pleasing. Now, where do I go from here?

I could add more primes to my Nikon kit and upgrade to a D4 or D4x. However, that is a serious amount of money that could bring me quite a step towards MF territory. Maybe MF is a better way to go. I know there are several options, but from what I read S2 users appear to be more consistently satisfied with the lenses. If I like “ the look” (looks good on the web, but I have yet to see a print), then Leica´s seeming commitment to consistently produce superb lenses that adhere to a “certain look” would save me a lot of time from having to trying this and that odd lens. Prehaps a S2 with the awaited zoom lens would be ideal?

However, when I look at images comparing the S2 and D3x  on the links from Eric or on DigLoyd, I am amazed at how good the D3x actually is. But I have a feeling these comparings mostly show differences in resolution.  I am really more interested in the overall look and “feeling” the image gives, and to compare that I guess I will have to shoot and process som images of my own and compare the results.

One thing holding me back is the performance at high ISO, so I keep lurking in the forums asking users of Nikon and S2 about their experience. From what I gather ISO 640 seems to be the current max if I want optimal results. That is a bit short of what I want. There may be some updates to improve on this, or maybe I will have to hang out for the S3? Just can´t make up my mind 

Thanks again for your replies, Christopher.


Hi again Christopher.
I would be carefull with those comparisons based on a few images and dont tell the story about the "overall look and feeling" as you say.
My feeling is that with the S2 I get:
- more sharpness and microdetail,for example look into the eyes of portraits shot with the S2
- I prefer the skintones I get with the S2
- the images of the S2 look very "clear"/real/3d
- I like the rolloff from sharp to unsharp plane
- images of the S2 need near zero post processing (for my taste)
- The S2 lenses are very good even wide open (specially the 70mm S lens will beat most 50mm DSLR lenses in regards to contrast/vignetting and Bokeh)
-ISO up to 640 the S2 will beat any Canon/Nikon but I dont like ISO 1250 fro the S2. So yes, you can use the S2 handhold for many things but there are some applications in low light where you will reach the limit.

How big are those differences..hard to say and I would lie that I wouldnt have had second thoughts here and then if I should have spent so much money for the last little bit of IQ and the very few really big prints.

- Other than that I also like the simple user interface of the S2 and the big viewfinder.

On the other side the Nikon system offers a faster pace (faster AF), more foolproof exp metering, of course much more lens options (which I own but dont use ;) and of course smaller lenses).
I had a D3x and still have a D700 (with tele/zoom and high ISO / fast AF applications in mind) but have barely used it after getting the S2.
I have to add that I had a Hy6-Sinar75LV before I switched to the S2. And while the S2 suits better my handling needs I did like the IQ from the Sinar back and the Rollei lenses at least the same as that from the S2. So my opinion is that probably all Medium format digital systems will offer that level of IQ when using the right lenses.

by the way, I am hobby photographer not pro and do a lot of "casual" shooting.

Regards, Tom

 
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: HCHeyerdahl on November 24, 2011, 01:42:37 am
Thanks all for taking your time to share your thoughts on this.

In will of course wait to see what the next generation Nikon cameras bring. Maybe the quality increment from a D4 or D800 is sufficient for my use. As you say Bernard, it is really a value question. I probably ought to get at lest one of the the lenses you and Eric recommend and try that out.

Thanks Tim for sharing your thought on the S2 vs Nikon. Truly appreciate your frankness about having had second thoughts at times. I too do this only for personal pleasure. Now that actually kind of amplifies the desire to reach the ultimate limit. It is not just a tool for doing work to give a living return on investment, it is more of an instrument and process in creating something personally gratifying. But, I am not at all sure if MF is the right step. I am more concernd about color transition, rolloff from sharp to unsharp etc than by increasing pixels. Just because I can, does not mean I should  :-\.

Thanks again, Christopher
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: PeterA on November 24, 2011, 01:59:39 am
This here is the most hardcore set of Medium Format users on the net, people here have the most exotic stuff and no one has actually got an S2?
Does that say something about the S2?

Edmund

Maybe this forum is not where S2 owners and users care to post?  :D

after all the S2 isn't a real MF system don't ya know?









Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: craigrudlin on November 24, 2011, 10:42:08 pm
I just made the switch from 35mm to a Leica S2.  First, I am impressed by the dynamic range.  On a recent trip
through Death Valley and to Mono Lake, I did not have to do any HDR.  Second, is the remarkable tonal contrast
which gives the images a texture and tactile feeling-- you can reach out and touch the rock and feel the sand.
 The S2 handled like my Nikon, extremely easy to use, and
the Leica glass is quite impressive.  My associate  had a D700, and comparing the same "shot" between the 700 and
the S2 demonstrates the remarkable difference in dynamic range, tonal contrast, particularly "micro contrast".
I have already made 20x30 and 24x36 inch prints that have a presence I just can't attain with the 35mm Nikon.
Post processing is also reduced significantly.  Please visit my web site to see some examples (albeit as jpg's they can't really
show the full benefits of MF).  The Leica S2 images are under the "new" section of my website.

One "negative" characteristic of MF, not just Leica, is the reduced depth of field.  That, I admit, I found a "problem."  Not
having as many focusing points fort AF was not really an issue because the viewfinder is so bright and clear that manual
focusing, when needed, was easy and often I just didn't even bother to "focus and re-compose."  The Leica's AF, when used
was very good and definitely not slow.

www.rudlinfineart.com

craig
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: HCHeyerdahl on November 30, 2011, 12:31:16 am
Thanks Craig, that is really interesting.

Although it is probably difficult to see the differences in small web images, I took a look at your new images taken with the S2 and they are beautiful. However, comparing with your images in the multicrome section which I presume are captured with your Nikons, it is really difficult for me to take a random picture and say which is which. Perhaps the Leica images show more pleasing color and transitions, but that could easily just be a self fulfilling illusion (see what you want to see..) or just be different light conditions I guess.   I will just have to get my hands on one and make some prints!

Christopher
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: HCHeyerdahl on November 30, 2011, 12:37:30 am
This here is the most hardcore set of Medium Format users on the net, people here have the most exotic stuff and no one has actually got an S2?
Does that say something about the S2?

Edmund

Maybe this forum is not where S2 owners and users care to post?  :D

after all the S2 isn't a real MF system don't ya know?



I am too much of a wanabe to know if you are just fooling around or actually have a point. I do know that the sensor of the S system is smaller than the Hassey systems that have more then 40 MP. Sorry if I just don´t get the pun, but could you please explain if there is something here I ought to be aware of? I would hate to find out AFTER having moved to the S system.

Christopher


Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: eronald on November 30, 2011, 12:39:07 am
Why doesn't Leica just sell or license Nikon and Canon high-end lenses; we all need that glass, rather than be a boutique brand they would sell hundreds of thousands if not millions, and Peter Karbe would become a rocks star.

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica S2 30mm
Post by: georgl on November 30, 2011, 04:40:10 pm
Quote
Why doesn't Leica just sell or license Nikon and Canon high-end lenses

It takes proprietary experience, technolgy in design/ measurement/ manufacturing and skill to make lenses of this quality-level. The apprenticeship to become a Feinwerktechniker or Feinoptiker alone takes 42 months. The grinding machines can only process single lens surfaces, mechanics with the necessary precision cannot be casted... So even when Nikon or Canon would manufacture lenses to Leica-standard they wouldn't be any cheaper or easier to produce than today. Just look at their better Telephoto- or Cine-lenses.
On the other hand, Leica in Germany is not allowed to manufacture lenses that are fully compatible to Japanese systems - Zeiss had to outsource it's ZF-series to Cosina therefore. Unlike Germany (yes, they're this naive), Japan still protects crucial parts of their industry.

I seriously hope they take the chance and develop a modern digital camera system with proprietary technology this time. ARRI did it with the Alexa - why not Leica?