Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Wayne Fox on September 21, 2011, 06:12:35 pm
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Wraps finally came off on this ... a few surprises. They went with a smaller than 4/3rds sensor, I assume to make the camera smaller. Guess we'll see some IQ tests in the near future to see if this was a good move or not.
http://nikon.com/news/2011/0921_digital_01.htm
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Apparently the only thing smaller than 4/3 is the sensor. :'(
Eduardo
Wraps finally came off on this ... a few surprises. They went with a smaller than 4/3rds sensor, I assume to make the camera smaller. Guess we'll see some IQ tests in the near future to see if this was a good move or not.
http://nikon.com/news/2011/0921_digital_01.htm
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it looks like Nikon bent over backward to protect the DSLR line - ultimately i think this is the wrong choice and larger sensors will prevail
if you're investing in a camera system the small sensor IQ limitations are a big negative
at least they got the VF right, hope Panasonic and Olympus will take a lesson here
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Just as an aside to that, today my Canon rep was in with some sample prints from the s100. While the original announcement seemed sort of a yawner, after seeing the IQ gains (very usable ISO 1600) there is a lot more to this camera than I originally thought. Personally I think it might be very close to the new Nikons in IQ. I'm not sure why nikon thought an upgraded point and shoot (which isn't small enough to be a point and shoot) was the way to go. Guess we'll see.
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Hi,
I fail to see the benefits of small cameras, unless they are flat so they will fit into a pocket. Aside from that, the Sony NEX cameras with APS sensors are small, definitively small compared to the lenses. With a small sensor the lenses can also be small. That is of course and advantage. But I guess that the EVIL market is perhaps not about you and me.
Best regards
Erik
Just as an aside to that, today my Canon rep was in with some sample prints from the s100. While the original announcement seemed sort of a yawner, after seeing the IQ gains (very usable ISO 1600) there is a lot more to this camera than I originally thought. Personally I think it might be very close to the new Nikons in IQ. I'm not sure why nikon thought an upgraded point and shoot (which isn't small enough to be a point and shoot) was the way to go. Guess we'll see.
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Hi,
I fail to see the benefits of small cameras, unless they are flat so they will fit into a pocket. Aside from that, the Sony NEX cameras with APS sensors are small, definitively small compared to the lenses. With a small sensor the lenses can also be small. That is of course and advantage. But I guess that the EVIL market is perhaps not about you and me.
Best regards
Erik
I'd agree. I like my NEX-5 with the 16mm and my Fuji x100. I'd rather carry a small DSLR than the NEX-5 with the 18-55 or anything bigger..
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Just as an aside to that, today my Canon rep was in with some sample prints from the s100. While the original announcement seemed sort of a yawner, after seeing the IQ gains (very usable ISO 1600) there is a lot more to this camera than I originally thought. Personally I think it might be very close to the new Nikons in IQ. I'm not sure why nikon thought an upgraded point and shoot (which isn't small enough to be a point and shoot) was the way to go. Guess we'll see.
Has Nikon posted high ISO raw files shot with the V1?
Now, the J1/V1 is not targeting folks like us. It is targeting all the mothers in the world who are tired of being unable to get sharp pictures of their fast moving young children with compact cameras. From its design and spec, I belive that the J1/V1 is likely to be without much competition for those people.
God nows this market in much larger than that of high end shooters.
Cheers,
Bernard
Cheers,
Bernard
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Has Nikon posted high ISO raw files shot with the V1?
Now, the J1/V1 is not targeting folks like us. It is targeting all the mothers in the world who are tired of being unable to get sharp pictures of their fast moving young children with compact cameras. From its design and spec, I belive that the J1/V1 is likely to be without much competition for those people.
God nows this market in much larger than that of high end shooters.
Some good points. No, I haven't seen files yet, my Canon rep is much more aggressive and helpful than my Nikon rep. I assume he'll get around some day. And they could be very good, so my comment was more about how the s100 (a true pocket camera) is a pretty big improvement in many regards to the s95 (cmos not ccd, smart image stability, major improvements in high ISO, 8 fps burst rate, improved focusing, smart white balance ... can use two different white balances in a scene (foreground flash background tungsten), greater zoom range.
I can see that's where Nikons "target" is, but no one at a best buy or other type of store will really be able to sell this well. A lot of those moms come to camera stores, where there are several other choices (such as sony NEX or a55/65). I can't imagine a camera store pushing these when they can sell a Sony ... better margins, protected pricing so no price slashing etc. and proven technology.
Guess we'll see ... we'll probably bring a couple into the store so maybe after having one in hand I'll see things differently.
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Has Nikon posted high ISO raw files shot with the V1?
J1 @ http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/NIKONJ1/NIKONJ1GALLERY.HTM
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J1 @ http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/NIKONJ1/NIKONJ1GALLERY.HTM
The small versions seem incredibly good on the screen of my iPhone (:-)), how are they when watched at 100% on a real screen?
Cheers,
Bernard
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I can see that's where Nikons "target" is, but no one at a best buy or other type of store will really be able to sell this well. A lot of those moms come to camera stores, where there are several other choices (such as sony NEX or a55/65). I can't imagine a camera store pushing these when they can sell a Sony ... better margins, protected pricing so no price slashing etc. and proven technology.
I believe that it will be an easy sell in Tokyo. My mother will litteraly run to get one if it performs per the specs.
Which somehow doesn't mean that my mother lives in Tokyo, contrary to a widespread popular belief.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Has Nikon posted high ISO raw files shot with the V1?
Now, the J1/V1 is not targeting folks like us. It is targeting all the mothers in the world who are tired of being unable to get sharp pictures of their fast moving young children with compact cameras. From its design and spec, I belive that the J1/V1 is likely to be without much competition for those people.
God nows this market in much larger than that of high end shooters.
Cheers,
Bernard
Cheers,
Bernard
I think so too. Yet, I don't see many mothers looking to spend $649 or $899 to do this. Even very capable HD video cameras which are more appealing to this genre go for half the price. I can't help but feel, if this is their main target, that they missed in a huge way.
Now.. put that focusing technology in a $300 Coolpix.. and they'd have a winner. And eventually they probably will. But banking on the 'dissatisfied' segment of the $200-$300 PNS market to all of a sudden be willing to plunk down $700-$900 because of a promise of better focused images? Not a chance.
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I agree that this camera system is not aimed at us. I don't even think that it's aimed at the US market. I think this is more intended for the asian market, and especially the Japanese domestic market. I guess I look at it as a kind of an upper-middle class snapshot camera. I guess the series 1 cameras are what I always thought P&S cameras should be in the first place.
The spectrum of digital image quality, from cell phone cameras to MFDBs, is now officially vast.
Meanwhile, EXPEED 3 is officially here. If the D4/D400/D800 have two of those, that will be 1200MP/sec theoretical throughput, and that's enough to do some interesting work in real-time. If it could process 40MP times 30 FPS, or 20MP times 60 FPS, it might be possible to create video frames from downsampling in real-time, instead of from decimation. A rapid-readout sensor would make all the difference here. Any such camera Canon/Nikon would close out the 5DII video generation in an instant and begin a new one.
I also think the idea of motion snapshot will find its way into professional cameras as the equivalent of a recording engineer's "pre-roll". The idea of pre-roll on a digital audio recorder is that the "tape" is always running, so when you hit the record button, the recorder already has several seconds of material recorded, just in case you missed the cue. I would not mind if the camera -- silently -- took 30 portrait frames at full resolution, starting when I half-pressed the shutter release, and let me review them quickly before saving. [The motion snapshot also reminds me of something that SNL has been doing recently when going to and from commercial, and it's a cool effect.]
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I think so too. Yet, I don't see many mothers looking to spend $649 or $899 to do this. Even very capable HD video cameras which are more appealing to this genre go for half the price. I can't help but feel, if this is their main target, that they missed in a huge way.
Now.. put that focusing technology in a $300 Coolpix.. and they'd have a winner. And eventually they probably will. But banking on the 'dissatisfied' segment of the $200-$300 PNS market to all of a sudden be willing to plunk down $700-$900 because of a promise of better focused images? Not a chance.
I guess that the question is how much the average memories sensitive mother did spend over the past 3 years in compacts that ended up frustrating them. Buy 2 and you are in the price range.
Most people don't look at things this way, but buying the right equipment is often a way to save money.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Another thing that is striking with the J1/V1 is IMHO what I see as a strong iPhone influence. Ungortunately, as Thom pointed out, it is only partial.
There are 3 things remarkable about the iPhone:
- unless you use Camera+, there are zero settings yet pictures come out mostly Ok. This approach will have a tremendous impact on what we come to see as a good camera experience. The 1 series is trying to replicate this settingless-yet-works experience at the level of the UI,
- connectivity. I would be surprised if a 3g or wifi accesory were proposed by Nikon soon to enable iPhone like connectivity to the 1 series,
- open platform with embedded apps to enhance images before uploading. The 1 series come short here for now.
Besides I am amazed by the violence of the negative reactions on DPreview. How can prople get that excited about a camera they have not even touched or seen? :-)
Cheers,
Bernard
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It's always a disappointment when a camera manufacturer starts a new system and – from a photographer's point of view – gets so many things utterly wrong. People who know a bit about cameras don't really have to see this in flesh to understand about all its limitations.
I, for myself, really can't understand how anyone who is really serious about photography should ever consider this. Exept the (truly remarkable!) 60fps feature is needed for some very special circumstances, or the high crop factor in combination with the interchangeable lens system (e.g. good for birdwatching, maybe surveillance as well). Apart from that, it's a Nikon-branded gadget with funky styling that comes in lots of colors – if you like it, go for it, sure.
But anyone else... why bother with this? It's just sad that Nikon, as one of the biggest camera brands ever, have now definitely chosen to not offer demanding photographers an innovative mirrorless solution. There's of course nothing inherently wrong with ignoring serious photographers regarding possible future camera systems. Sure – it's any company's free right.
Thomas
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I don't know why people insist on comparing this with large sensor cameras. If you compare it to Pany LX-5 or Oly OZ-1 instead, there is some appeal. It's not far off the price of those "high-end" p&s digicams if you include the price of the optional EVF finder, you get a much bigger sensor, and if you want some day, you can fit other lenses onto it. Lots of people are buying those high-end digicams, so now someone is offering a super-digicam upgrade/alternate for them. Of course, the system may turn out not to be commercially successful, but I don't see it as a failed attempt to compete with micro-4/3 or NEX.
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I don't know why people insist on comparing this with large sensor cameras. If you compare it to Pany LX-5 or Oly OZ-1 instead, there is some appeal.
(1)
It's got the size and weight of a "large sensor" system camera (The bigger model with the built-in viewfinder weighs 3 gramms more than the NEX-7 which in addition also has a built-in flash.)
(2)
The lenses have just as well the size of a "large sensor" system camera. Yes there are other system's zoom lenses out there that are bigger, but also others that are the same size or even smaller, e.g. the 10-100 for the Nikon has exactly the same size and weight as the APS-C 18-200 for Sony NEX. The new 14-42 for MFT is much smaller than the 10-30 for this Nikon.
(3)
The Nikon comes with the same limitations as most "large sensor" system cameras (they make two different models with either built-in flash or built-in viewfinder the same time....)
(4)
And last not least it comes with the same price as "large sensor" system cameras.
In contrast to that, I can't see the big similarity to a LX-5 or Canon S95 or other similar offerings which are really a different class in physical size.... truly pocketable, almost like a cell phone, and also substantially less expensive.
Another funny thing is that the Nikon, despite its super small sensor, comes with dull f/3.5-5.6 kit zoom lenses, which are standard for much bigger sensor sizes but really should not be produced for a sensor that small. Yes, most of the smaller all-in-one-cameras have much faster lenses than the Nikon. Another thing they just did not get right.
Thomas
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Perhaps we should take into account aspects such as image quality and user experience as key aspects of this product before casting a judgement on it?
Since when have cameras become nothing but a list of numbers on a spec sheet? I would expect the good people of LL to know better. :)
Anyway, the old principle still applies, don't like it, don't buy it. I personnaly need a compact camera to replace my dead G10 and S90, a camera that focuses well in dark places and that my wife will have to be able to use also without spending too much time reading the manual. Right now the specs of the J1/V1 appear closest to my needs. It is a bit expensive, but I am not sure why people here even mention price as a factor considering the price of other equipment already owned...
Cheers,
Bernard
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What is it that makes the Nikon appeal to you more than, say, any MFT camera? Why would you want that Nikon more than a GF3 with a much smaller 14-42 "pancake" lens and an already much more proven system behind it? Why should that Panasonic, for example, make your wife need to read the manual and a Nikon should not? Why do you not simply replace the S90 with a S95 that does not come with the size penalty of the new Nikon and a much faster lens?
Everyone is free to buy what he or she wants. But everyone is also free to point on issues when a manufacturer makes a new product with a lot of questionable characteristics. It's not that the Nikon won't be able to take photos. It's rather that there is so much good competition out there already that it makes the Nikon just look a bit lame. But if you like it, why discuss any more. Go out and buy it! It's as simple as that!
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What is it that makes the Nikon appeal to you more than, say, any MFT camera? Why would you want that Nikon more than a GF3 with a much smaller 14-42 "pancake" lens and an already much more proven system behind it? Why should that Panasonic, for example, make your wife need to read the manual and a Nikon should not? Why do you not simply replace the S90 with a S95 that does not come with the size penalty of the new Nikon and a much faster lens?if you like it, why discuss any more. Go out and buy it! It's as simple as that!
try to shot erratically running (= not in one direction) child w/ GF3
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I agree that this camera system is not aimed at us. I don't even think that it's aimed at the US market. I think this is more intended for the asian market, and especially the Japanese domestic market. I guess I look at it as a kind of an upper-middle class snapshot camera.
I'd agree with this as well. Having spent over 23+ years in Asia you can't help but recognize photography is one of their few almost national hobbies.. like ham radio was in Japan in the 80's.. not sure what it's like now. In Thailand the NEX-5 sold like hotcakes, it was new and stylish and from Sony. Everyone with a benz or better SUV had to have one hanging around their neck. The Fuji x100 still hasn't made it to the shelves, it's old and not nearly as stylish. Same with Malaysia and Singapore.
But to ignore the US and European markets? Risky.
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I personnaly need a compact camera to replace my ... G10 ...
+1
One key point might be the definition of "pocketability" (if this an ok English term).
Canon had a nice belt-bag for the G10. Any larger camera is not pocketable for my purposes.
What I really don’t understand is why we already had high quality, pocketable P&S FF film cameras more than 10 years ago. But hardly anything like this since "digital". For example, at the risk of sounding snobby, the Leica Minilux Zoom (Ti Bogner edition) sometimes still finds the way in my pocket for a day trip or so. Seems not every buyer of a small camera is a price buyer.
Peter
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I thought Tom Hogan (http://bythom.com/ (http://bythom.com/)) had some interesting comments about why the "1" might be useful/preferred under the paragraph heading "Don't Undersell...".
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Well, in post #15 you said it also means "... that Nikon, as one of the biggest camera brands ever, have now definitely chosen to not offer demanding photographers an innovative mirrorless solution."
This may have colored your perspective on the new Nikon. I would add "for now" to that statement. This new concept is so far from the capabilities of DX that it cannot really replace the larger format. Something close to say m4/3 could be made far more easily into a DX replacement, even if slightly inferior to it.
BTW: I kind of like the esthetics of te V1 (I also admit to liking the nex-es): clean lines, modern, no attempt to emulate '70s rangefinder (PEN) or 90's über-slr [GH3] looks.
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Some good points. No, I haven't seen files yet, my Canon rep is much more aggressive and helpful than my Nikon rep. I assume he'll get around some day. And they could be very good, so my comment was more about how the s100 (a true pocket camera) is a pretty big improvement in many regards to the s95 (cmos not ccd, smart image stability, major improvements in high ISO, 8 fps burst rate, improved focusing, smart white balance ... can use two different white balances in a scene (foreground flash background tungsten), greater zoom range.
I can see that's where Nikons "target" is, but no one at a best buy or other type of store will really be able to sell this well. A lot of those moms come to camera stores, where there are several other choices (such as sony NEX or a55/65). I can't imagine a camera store pushing these when they can sell a Sony ... better margins, protected pricing so no price slashing etc. and proven technology.
Guess we'll see ... we'll probably bring a couple into the store so maybe after having one in hand I'll see things differently.
Wayne, I agree with you an all points.
This is a camera that is aimed at the intermediate market, but with a price that is too high for that market ($1149 (http://"http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-10mm-10-30mm-Kit-Black/dp/B005OGR3QY/ref=br_lf_m_1000720831_1_1_ttl?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&s=photo&pf_rd_p=1318671122&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_i=1000720831&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=114ECP9PFKPRSNS1X581") for the V1 and the 2 lens kit, $649 (http://"http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-J1-10-30mm-Kit-Black/dp/B005OGQY5U/ref=br_lf_m_1000720831_1_18_ttl?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&s=photo&pf_rd_p=1318671122&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_i=1000720831&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=11K7MCS7M4C5YF32QCT4") for the J1 and the 10-30mm zoom). Personally, for $150 less, if one wanting to stay "brand loyal", I'll get the coolpic p7100. Sure the sensor is smaller and it's a lower video resolution, but I get real pocketability, much better controls, a standard flash hotshoe, stereo sound (the 1 is mono ???) and an articulating screen. Did mention it was $150 less?
The 5 variants of this thing make it a nightmare for brick and mortar retailers like yourself. You now have to keep shelf space for 5 versions of this camera. I can see situations where folks end up with a silver body and pink lens...
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It'll take a while before all this shakes out, but one thing about the 1 system that surprised me was the size of the lenses -- it has the same drawback as the NEX, which is small body, large system. If you bought a D7000 instead of the NEX, you'd hardly notice the overall difference in size when you're carrying the bag onto the airplane, or humping it up the mountain...and you'd get the D7000 viewfinder. The 1 system components simply aren't small enough. IMHO, about the only reason to buy an EVF is for size, but that has to include the lenses.
There's a similar discussion going on at The Online Photographer, where I found this link, which is worth thinking about, in the overall context of EVF systems: http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/lense.html
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Why would you want that Nikon more than a GF3 with a much smaller 14-42 "pancake" lens and an already much more proven system behind it? Why should that Panasonic, for example, make your wife need to read the manual and a Nikon should not? Why do you not simply replace the S90 with a S95 that does not come with the size penalty of the new Nikon and a much faster lens?
What I find more appealing with the Nikon based on the partial information available today:
- the long term potential for a more compact system, I agree that it is only partially realized today,
- the promise of an AF system faster than that of the D3s, which is needed if you want to take sharp images of young children, which would be the main usage of this camera (I use my D3x when I am on a photographic mission),
- sensor specs that make me feel that we might have best in class high iso image quality (remember the D3s),
- the possibility to use my large collection of Nikon lenses,
- a highly simplified interface similar in essence to an iPhone experience.
AF speed alone is a no go with all the alternatives on the market today for my target applications. I liked the S90 until it died at young age, but don't even think of using it for moving subjects.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Since when have cameras become nothing but a list of numbers on a spec sheet? :)
Since the advent of digital and forms like this one. At least in the minds of many.
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Well,
it looks promising to me.
However I got to have a peek trough that viewfinder first,
Cheers,
W
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Warehouse Express (clicky (http://www.warehouseexpress.com/list/?key=new-nikon-interchangeable)) are advertising the J1 & V1 with a bundle worth £150, possibly as recognition that it's over-priced. At the moment the deal is for so-called 'pre-orders', which is the same as ordering or reserving one, but with 'pre' added. Leaving aside the mangling of the English language, it's a pretty crappy deal - who wants a Nikon t-shirt, gorrilapod & Nikon training voucher etc? The only positive is the memory card. But I think it's indication that the price will fall by at least this amount, if not more.
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- sensor specs that make me feel that we might have best in class high iso image quality (remember the D3s),
Yeah, keep dreaming with that one. Check out this Link (http://"http://www.focus-numerique.com/test-1302/compact-nikon-v1-bruit-electronique-12.html") It's in French, but they tested the V1 vs the Nikon P7100, Olympus E-P3, Panasonic G3 and the Sony NEX-5N. Look at the images full sized. To my eyes, it looks like the NEX has at least a two stop advantage over the V1.
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Yeah, keep dreaming with that one. Check out this Link (http://"http://www.focus-numerique.com/test-1302/compact-nikon-v1-bruit-electronique-12.html") It's in French, but they tested the V1 vs the Nikon P7100, Olympus E-P3, Panasonic G3 and the Sony NEX-5N. Look at the images full sized. To my eyes, it looks like the NEX has at least a two stop advantage over the V1.
There is no question that the Nex will be much better. They don't belong to the same class. The only thing they have in common is the lack of mirror.
On the other hand the samples I have seen at 3200 Iso showed very little gao btwn J1 and GF3.
Cheers,
Bernard
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There is no question that the Nex will be much better. They don't belong to the same class. The only thing they have in common is the lack of mirror.
On the other hand the samples I have seen at 3200 Iso showed very little gao btwn J1 and GF3.
Cheers,
Bernard
Same approximate size/weight, same approximate cost, no mirror, new lens mount so new lenses, approx same rear LCD, comes in different designer colors, lots of features are the same.. I think they're remarkably similar. What we should be looking for isn't how much the same they are, but where there is a significant difference which offsets the difference in image quality. Focus speed (reported) and the 60fps mode?
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I'd agree with this as well. Having spent over 23+ years in Asia you can't help but recognize photography is one of their few almost national hobbies.. like ham radio was in Japan in the 80's.. not sure what it's like now. In Thailand the NEX-5 sold like hotcakes, it was new and stylish and from Sony. Everyone with a benz or better SUV had to have one hanging around their neck. The Fuji x100 still hasn't made it to the shelves, it's old and not nearly as stylish. Same with Malaysia and Singapore.
But to ignore the US and European markets? Risky.
Nikon's promo video for the J1 depicts upscale Asian women on their way to various social functions...birthday parties, engagements, etc. They use the camera's specialty features in order to really deliver the best pictures. They show the pictures to their friends and their friends are pleased to no end. This is a well-focused message with a clear target. The V1 seems to be targeted more at men, and promos I've seen emphasize control, power, technology.
[Did anyone in marketing wonder about the combined meaning of the letters VJ in US-Japanese history.]
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Hi there is another country in Asia, sometimes called PCR also known as China...
Best regards
Erik
Nikon's promo video for the J1 depicts upscale Asian women on their way to various social functions...birthday parties, engagements, etc. They use the camera's specialty features in order to really deliver the best pictures. They show the pictures to their friends and their friends are pleased to no end. This is a well-focused message with a clear target. The V1 seems to be targeted more at men, and promos I've seen emphasize control, power, technology.
[Did anyone in marketing wonder about the combined meaning of the letters VJ in US-Japanese history.]
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Nikon's promo video for the J1 depicts upscale Asian women on their way to various social functions...birthday parties, engagements, etc. They use the camera's specialty features in order to really deliver the best pictures. They show the pictures to their friends and their friends are pleased to no end. This is a well-focused message with a clear target. The V1 seems to be targeted more at men, and promos I've seen emphasize control, power, technology.
[Did anyone in marketing wonder about the combined meaning of the letters VJ in US-Japanese history.]
I haven't seen them, but it sounds exactly how they promote this type of product.
When you're in a country with "classes" so well defined, you'll often see very targeted advertising. Example: A very small portion of Thailand's citizens can afford to own a car, less drive the car they own, and even less afford the Expressway that charges more for a single toll than most Thai's spend on dinner. The Expressway is elevated, about 20-50 meters. As you drive the Expressway there are big giant billboards planted in the ground, but rising to the Expressway level, one after the other, promoting mostly luxury goods (fancy condo's, cars, purses, cosmetics, high end drink, etc). From the ground you can't see them, but from the Expressway it's like watching television.
When they released the NEX-3/NEX-5.. they took pre-orders and your contact information with the order.. and then called and invited us to a catered event in the Siam Paragon (an uber high end mall with Ferrari dealer store (a regular mall store stuffed with Ferrari's), Porsche, Louis Vitton, Rolex, etc, etc) with lots of bling and free stuff for showing up. Pretty young things handed out the cameras, helped attach straps, and then modeled so you could test it out. They turned the release into a fun social event and their target was clear. Fuji did something similar for the F200exr, Canon had a big one for the 5d Mark II.. buying a new camera at it's release gets you a fun time..
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Same approximate size/weight, same approximate cost, no mirror, new lens mount so new lenses, approx same rear LCD, comes in different designer colors, lots of features are the same.. I think they're remarkably similar. What we should be looking for isn't how much the same they are, but where there is a significant difference which offsets the difference in image quality. Focus speed (reported) and the 60fps mode?
They both are cameras yes, but they target different people for different applications.
If you feel there has to be a better camera, a winner, let's agree that the Sony wins and move on. :)
Cheers,
Bernard
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They both are cameras yes, but they target different people for different applications.
If you feel there has to be a better camera, a winner, let's agree that the Sony wins and move on. :)
Cheers,
Bernard
I'm not yet sure about the NEX-7, but the NEX-3/NEX-5 targeted the same customer base in Asia. Who the Nikon is targeting in the west remains a mystery.
Why do you feel there must be a "better camera?" To simplify to such an extent stifles discussion.
There are a few ways to look at this. We can discuss the main marketing target base (of the Nikons) which I'll agree with others is Asia, with the west being secondary. The market in the USA is so large, even a relatively small percentage of the market means significant numbers sold.
Or we can look at if/how the Nikon's appeal to forum members. I think this is of a higher interest. If we do this, it's natural to compare to the competition. I think most would agree the Sony NEX series is a close if not the closest competition. The cameras are remarkably similar, but obviously different in some respects. The similarities should be obvious if our eyes aren't closed, but the differences not so much. The knowledge to be gained by discussing the differences, I think, is of the most immediate value.
So I'll ask you (or anyone else) again, with so much being similar (size, weight, price, rear LCD, color choices, new lens mount/lenses, no mirror, etc, etc), what do you think the most significant differences are with the Nikon, that would sway you from the Sony with it's obvious sensor/image IQ advantages? To those in the forum I'd guess we care an awful lot about image quality/noise/sensor.. so I'm interested in what the Nikon has to offer that would motivate you to accept less in this area? I gave two examples immediately apparent to me. Focus speed (reported) and the 60fps at full rez.
I've noticed a tendency for some to insist on very focused threads when the subject has no clear focal point. Seems silly if not obnoxious. It's a discussion forum, we shouldn't sacrifice discussion for focus unless it serves a specific purpose of value.
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I'm not yet sure about the NEX-7, but the NEX-3/NEX-5 targeted the same customer base in Asia. Who the Nikon is targeting in the west remains a mystery.
Why do you feel there must be a "better camera?" To simplify to such an extent stifles discussion.
Hi Steve,
I don't, that was the point I was trying to make, but some folks around seem motivated in trying to convince me that the Sony is the better camera. :)
There are a few ways to look at this. We can discuss the main marketing target base (of the Nikons) which I'll agree with others is Asia, with the west being secondary. The market in the USA is so large, even a relatively small percentage of the market means significant numbers sold.
Or we can look at if/how the Nikon's appeal to forum members. I think this is of a higher interest. If we do this, it's natural to compare to the competition. I think most would agree the Sony NEX series is a close if not the closest competition. The cameras are remarkably similar, but obviously different in some respects. The similarities should be obvious if our eyes aren't closed, but the differences not so much. The knowledge to be gained by discussing the differences, I think, is of the most immediate value.
So I'll ask you (or anyone else) again, with so much being similar (size, weight, price, rear LCD, color choices, new lens mount/lenses, no mirror, etc, etc), what do you think the most significant differences are with the Nikon, that would sway you from the Sony with it's obvious sensor/image IQ advantages? To those in the forum I'd guess we care an awful lot about image quality/noise/sensor.. so I'm interested in what the Nikon has to offer that would motivate you to accept less in this area? I gave two examples immediately apparent to me. Focus speed (reported) and the 60fps at full rez.
As mentioned before, this is the camera I would use when I don't intend to do "serious" photography, I use the D3x otherwise either by itself or with a robust pano kit when I need serious resolution.
In this context, here is the value I see with the Nikon 1 series:
- the zoom lenses are smaller (18mm shorter for basic lens kit, 47mm shorter for tele zoom) and the system has the potential be become even smaller in the future,
- the AF seems much faster indeed,
- I'll be able to use my existing set of Nikon lenses if the need arises.
Cheers,
Bernard
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After reaching a population of 1.3 billion, I think they earned the name of the "People's Republic".
Eduardo
Hi there is another country in Asia, sometimes called PCR also known as China...
Best regards
Erik
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Right now all we have on focus speed is Nikon's claims, which may or may not be born out in practice. Tests at this site show the EPL-3 as faster at single shot AF except in dim light.
http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=1&ma1=31&mo1=1521&p1=11887&ma2=32&mo2=1446&p2=11333&ph=21
I wonder if a good bit of the focus "speed" isn't simply because DOF is a mile deep. Time will tell.
But I don't see who, in the US, is going to buy this. P&S upgraders aren't going to be satisfied with the tiny zoom range of the (relatively) small lenses, nor the size of the 10-100. With P&S bodies routinely offering 10X and even 20X zooms, the 10-30 is going to seem pretty limiting.
For the buyer who knows a bit more, and wants a bit more, m43 seems to offer a much better value. Smaller bodies and lenses, a wider range of lenses, and larger sensors. The only real advantages I see are (maybe) faster AF, a couple of somewhat clever features, and the promised ability to use F mount lenses some day, which may be of value if you already own a bunch of Nikon glass.
Even there, though, I have to wonder about the price and bulk of said adapter, and the value of turning a 20mm lens into a 54mm lens, or mounting a V1 to something as huge as a 70-200 2.8.
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<snip>
So I'll ask you (or anyone else) again, with so much being similar (size, weight, price, rear LCD, color choices, new lens mount/lenses, no mirror, etc, etc), what do you think the most significant differences are with the Nikon, that would sway you from the Sony with it's obvious sensor/image IQ advantages?
All right, I'll answer that. I have both m4/3 and Nikon systems. I can carry a three-body, six lens, removable viewfinder, charger, extra batteries system in what amounts to a large briefcase. I can put it on the luggage shelf in the narrow-body regional jets (the ones with one seat on one side, and two seats on the other.) The same system, in the Nikon, would take a roller case and would have to be checked. The NEX bodies are smaller, but the rest of the system isn't. The NEX should be compared to the D7000 and the K5, etc, and those, frankly, are better cameras. The weight savings of the small body is insignificant if you have to tow around a roller-case full of lenses anyway.
I would assume that the Nikon 1 system will, when fully rolled out, fit into a case that will be no larger than an m4/3, with the capability of going smaller yet. Look at the very small X lenses recently released by Panasonic for the m4/3. Nikon is fully capable of reproducing those, and I think eventually will. The future of these systems in involves size, not resolution or marginal utility like super-high ISOs or extreme shadow detail. When Nikon produces its smallest collapsible zoom lenses, like the Panasonics, you will be able to put this system in a purse. The NEX system is constrained on lens size, and there's not much to be done about that. Their smallest lenses will aways be larger than the Nikon or m4/3 smallest lenses. Furthermore, the prints produced by these cameras at any commercial facility will be largely indistinguishable.
Nikon didn't try to insult anybody with this -- they just built it for a different market that isn't you. You don't mind hanging a camera around your neck while you're at a party, but a lot of people do mind. When the Nikons reach their optimum small size, they will be carried in purses, not in roller bags.
JC
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Right now all we have on focus speed is Nikon's claims, which may or may not be born out in practice. Tests at this site show the EPL-3 as faster at single shot AF except in dim light.
http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=1&ma1=31&mo1=1521&p1=11887&ma2=32&mo2=1446&p2=11333&ph=21
Right... I am starting to doubt your willingness to look at this discussion fairly... your summary makes it look like the Pen is better at focusing... here are the figures in the sequence proposed by the tester:
Dark scenes (those were the compacts have been frustrating users):
- J1: 0.5 sec
- Pen E-P3: 1.6 sec
Bright scene:
- J1: 0.37 sec
- Pen E-P3: 0.25 sec
So what this means is that the Pen is basically unusable in dark places, even with static objects, while the J1 pretty much maintains its good day light performance. On the other hand the 2 cameras are only 0.12 second apart in easy scenes. I would think that most people would call this a home run in favor of the J1 but you seem to have a different view. :)
I would be interested in looking at test results for moving objects but my guess is that it would be even uglier.
Cheers,
Bernard
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As mentioned before, this is the camera I would use when I don't intend to do "serious" photography, I use the D3x otherwise either by itself or with a robust pano kit when I need serious resolution.
In this context, here is the value I see with the Nikon 1 series:
- the zoom lenses are smaller (18mm shorter for basic lens kit, 47mm shorter for tele zoom) and the system has the potential be become even smaller in the future,
- the AF seems much faster indeed,
- I'll be able to use my existing set of Nikon lenses if the need arises.
Cheers,
Bernard
It will be interesting to see if the AF is significantly faster. They're marketing it as much faster, but this is one of the areas where the proof is in the using.
I'm personally not interested in using my DSLR lenses with these cameras.. if I was using a full size DSLR lens, considering it's size, I don't see an advantage to using it with a smaller body. Though, I am interested in "pocketable" lenses, those that are pancake in design or fold when not in use. I think this is what I like so much about the x100 over the NEX-5.. the x100 is what it is, you can't hang other lenses on it. So I use it in it's "pocketable" (true, large pockets) configuration.. and if I need more then I'll use a DSLR.
The E mount lenses do offer size advantages, but so far not enough to sway. If the Nikon 1 system's lenses are small enough, and I could carry several relatively small lenses in a situation where zoom makes more practical sense than a foot zoom.. then I see this as an advantage for the Nikon 1. But then so would a Superzoom. It will be interesting to see image quality trade-offs between the relatively inexpensive superzooms and the much more expensive Nikon 1.
The biggest question for me, is how much image quality I'm willing to give up and when, for the sake of small. Currently the Fuji x100 is my minimum standard for image quality, in that I'll use it with the expectation I can make captures I'll want to sell, print large, or use on my website without qualification. I've used 4/3's systems and I find they're on the other side of the line (if only just) for these purposes.
I love PNS cameras, my wife adopted our NEX-5.. but these are family function/outing image quality cameras. My wife is willing to carry the NEX-5 around for family functions, while I'm more happy with PNS style.. She says she likes the look of the Nikon 1 and would use it for family functions and light duty travel. But then she's Asian and fits the demo it's being marketed to..
You see, I think like many others here a modern high quality PNS is "good enough" for such functions. I'd like more image quality, but not enough to carry more size/weight in such circumstances. And for those special family functions such as graduations, weddings, etc.. I don't mind bringing along the DSLR.. in fact people count on it.
Will a 2.7x sensor camera's image quality make a difference to me? Probably not at current standards.
Sorry for being verbose.. but this is only part of what goes in inside my mind when deciding to buy a new camera.
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All right, I'll answer that. I have both m4/3 and Nikon systems. I can carry a three-body, six lens, removable viewfinder, charger, extra batteries system in what amounts to a large briefcase. I can put it on the luggage shelf in the narrow-body regional jets (the ones with one seat on one side, and two seats on the other.) The same system, in the Nikon, would take a roller case and would have to be checked. The NEX bodies are smaller, but the rest of the system isn't. The NEX should be compared to the D7000 and the K5, etc, and those, frankly, are better cameras. The weight savings of the small body is insignificant if you have to tow around a roller-case full of lenses anyway.
I would assume that the Nikon 1 system will, when fully rolled out, fit into a case that will be no larger than an m4/3, with the capability of going smaller yet. Look at the very small X lenses recently released by Panasonic for the m4/3. Nikon is fully capable of reproducing those, and I think eventually will. The future of these systems in involves size, not resolution or marginal utility like super-high ISOs or extreme shadow detail. When Nikon produces its smallest collapsible zoom lenses, like the Panasonics, you will be able to put this system in a purse. The NEX system is constrained on lens size, and there's not much to be done about that. Their smallest lenses will aways be larger than the Nikon or m4/3 smallest lenses. Furthermore, the prints produced by these cameras at any commercial facility will be largely indistinguishable.
Nikon didn't try to insult anybody with this -- they just built it for a different market that isn't you. You don't mind hanging a camera around your neck while you're at a party, but a lot of people do mind. When the Nikons reach their optimum small size, they will be carried in purses, not in roller bags.
JC
1. I've been carrying compact DSLR kit on flights forever.. I dare say I travel internationally and regionally more than the average guy, so I know what/how to pack to cover specific events. I can do this with carry-on. I don't think I'm alone, I know many who do this. I don't need 3 bodies or six lenses for such work, and in the event I do.. nothing but the best image quality will do.. so I Fedex my gear ahead of me in military hard cases properly locked and insured. Sure, I wish everything was smaller and lighter but I haven't been compromising my photography because they're not.
2. My NEX lenses are significantly smaller than my DSLR lenses.. at least at comparable quality. Yet, it's not a professional tool imo.. so my wife uses it.
3. I don't carry a purse.. never thought about the need to fit my camera in one.
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I'm personally not interested in using my DSLR lenses with these cameras.. if I was using a full size DSLR lens, considering it's size, I don't see an advantage to using it with a smaller body. Though, I am interested in "pocketable" lenses, those that are pancake in design or fold when not in use. I think this is what I like so much about the x100 over the NEX-5.. the x100 is what it is, you can't hang other lenses on it. So I use it in it's "pocketable" (true, large pockets) configuration.. and if I need more then I'll use a DSLR.
Hi Steve,
I understand. Using DSLRs lenses on a J1 would not be my main usage either, but knowing you can do it is helpful. If the AF speed is preserved with AF lenses, it could also open up new doors for some applications where pixel density matters (birding,...) since it will turn a 300 f2.8 into a 800 f2.8 and the lack of mirror/shutter could help achieve sharp results.
It opens also the possibility to use a 1 series camera as a backup for important trips where bringing 2 bodies is not possible for logistical reasons (heli travel,...).
Regarding AF speed, the first independant tests show that it is 3 times faster than the newest Olyumpus on static subjects when the light is low. Another poster did provide an interesting link about this in the other Nikon 1 series thread.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi Steve,
I understand. Using DSLRs lenses on a J1 would not be my main usage either, but knowing you can do it is helpful. If the AF speed is preserved with AF lenses, it could also open up new doors for some applications where pixel density matters (birding,...) since it will turn a 300 f2.8 into a 800 f2.8 and the lack of mirror/shutter could help achieve sharp results.
It opens also the possibility to use a 1 series camera as a backup for important trips where bringing 2 bodies is not possible for logistical reasons (heli travel,...).
Regarding AF speed, the first independant tests show that it is 3 times faster than the newest Olyumpus on static subjects when the light is low. Another poster did provide an interesting link about this in the other Nikon 1 series thread.
Cheers,
Bernard
1. I think its interesting you could do this.. but probably not practical. Yet, every time we get a new body we get the people who experiment and post fun stuff.. you can never tell.
2. When I hear "1 series" I think fondly to the shelf holding my Canon's.. :) And to the future when/if they finally announce the 1ds4.
3. AF sounds promising. Nikon is hinting it's even faster at picking up moving subjects.. if so, I can't wait for that tech to transfer to the DSLR's.
All sound points, but nothing yet to prompt me to spend nearly $1000 for one.. knowing I'd also need to invest in the lenses. But it's still early.. :)
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3. AF sounds promising. Nikon is hinting it's even faster at picking up moving subjects.. if so, I can't wait for that tech to transfer to the DSLR's.
Thom Hogan just wrote a short article about this. He believes that this technology is likely to be embedded in the D4 to be announced in a few months.
This would give the options to the photographer to either use the mirror for those needed the best view of their scene, or with the mirror up for those needing the fastest AF and continous focus in video.
I like this idea, it does make a lot of sense. Now nobody knows if Nikon will go this route of course. It also has the potential to be able to focus very fast from anywhere in the frame which will provide tremendous new creative opportunities for sport shooters. Who isn't tired of all these images with fashion models or atheletes in the center of the frame because it is the only area where they can be accurately and reliably focused.
Anyway, back on the J1/V1, Nikon including this technology first in a consumer body shows that they have really understood something about the pains of everyday compact camera shooting. :) It reminds me of the Nike commercial "life is a sport". Oftentimes the accepted level of technological progress is still very far from answering the needs of people and it is good to see that some companies really focus their best effort on helping solve widespread issues like... out of focus images. :)
Cheers,
Bernard
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@ New Mirrorless Camera’s, the ones that caught my eye recently…
First the Pentax Q. The new Sony BSI sensor and the small sensor size lead to very practical image taking for targeted users (where dept of field needed). The lens set is truly pocketable and for those who then add a converter and full sized SLR lenses this leads to spectacular supertele capability. Remember on full frame a supertele lens is very big, very heavy, very expensive and across a distance heat haze and dust will soften an image, so the full frame advantage is less obvious.
The feature and function set on the camera is not aimed at me and the standard prime appears to have barrel distortion so whilst I think Pentax are making a great contribution to photography and I love their brave approach to innovative products the Pentax Q is not my thang.
Second the Fuji X10. 2/3 Inch sensor, not back lit but does have Fuji’s other DR expansion features for low light. Looks like it will also appeal to those that bought the X100 for its retro feel. The optical zoom finder, whilst only 80% view is still very interesting as they claim the experience is large and bright to the user.
Like the Pentax Q, I love that Fuji have been brave to focus a product this way, a great contribution to photography but still not quite what I am after.
Last but not least the new Nikon 1. An even bigger sensor also not back lit but still small enough. If we were thinking in terms of TV sensor tubes and C mount lenses this would be classed a 1 Inch sensor, however it is not that large. With a diagonal just under 16mm it is slightly larger than the diagonal of super 16mm cine film which has a diagonal of 14.4 mm. Nikon appear to suggest ‘’1’’ is the future in place of the Nikon ‘’I’’ of the past.
The film world is very much following the still image world of digital change. Nikon do not bring out a new lens mount every week and the old F mount has survived the digital world of DSLR’s. I suspect they have chosen this new mount as a long term mount for compact still system camera, combo cams (as in the product being launched) and also a professional mount for motion picture camera’s that would shoot this new format the way 16mm film was shoot with C mount lenses. By using the new technologies the need for large heavy indexed lenses is also overcome and so the need for a robust PL type mount is now less import as lenses will be electronic and smaller and auto focus will become a reality for this use. So their CX mount may also replace the need for PL mounts in some applications should they make any professional digital cinema products.
The tech spec of the camera is very significant for all imaging systems. If focus, metering and image quality of both sensor and view finder continue to improve, I suspect we will see this approach on all popular formats. It seems Sony’s new view finder is a step up over optical APS-C viewfinders and almost as good as the average Full Frame viewfinder. The first nail is most certainly in the coffin of the DSLR. Once patent and production capability issues are overcome I suspect this new Nikon will be copied in the larger formats. It will be interesting if Nikon makes the switch on its so called professional model replacements.
I really like the concept of the Nikon 1. The functions it offers over the competition, the ‘’possible’’ future use of the mount and the convenience and price advantage of a smaller format. 10 Mega pixels (less than the Q’s even smaller sensor) obviously chosen to make the most of the faster processing engine for the new features. They really have done their home work… Well done Nikon…
I am quite happy with my ‘’Full Frame’’ 135 Film SLR for portrait work. If my SLR manufacturer brings out a Mirrorless body with a great EVF and Nikon 1 style hybrid auto focus, then I will drool and drool. However I do not NEED a DSLR or Mirrorless Full Frame. Full Frame is the goldilocks format for portrait work. Film more than meets my needs.
NEX 7 is interesting for wide angles (when the top lenses fill out, if they fill out). Not a NEED for me though. I will get way more fun from the Nikon 1 by the looks…
4/3, may as well not exist, just does not interest me (2:3 ratio formats only please), and I am not inspired by the makers in the 4/3 group either. If it suits you, good luck…
This is how I feel today… as the guys at ‘’RED’’ would say, expect change, with me change is guaranteed… LOL
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I was looking at some sample images (http://"http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Nikon-Mirrorless-J1-Digital-Camera-Review/Sample-Photos.htm") from the J1. I was surprised at how much noise there is in the J1 images even at ISO 200.
(http://www.landshapephotography.com/img/v29/p46401016.jpg)
Compared to the (now discontinued, NEX-5. In my mind, that isn't quite fair. To make it even, they should have used the 5n. Oh, well. It doesn't matter as the NEX-5 appears superior anyway...
(http://www.landshapephotography.com/img/v29/p71885870.jpg)
These are un-edited crops 100% right from the images posted on digitalcamerainfo.com.
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I was looking at some sample images (http://"http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Nikon-Mirrorless-J1-Digital-Camera-Review/Sample-Photos.htm") from the J1. I was surprised at how much noise there is in the J1 images even at ISO 200.
True, low ISO seems pretty noisy.
What is interesting though is that the noise level of the J1 seems to be pretty constant whatever the ISO, or to be more accurate the increase of noise with ISO seems to be less than with other cameras it was compared against.
It seems to have been optimized more for higher ISOs, which might make sense considering the moderate aperture you end up having with compact lenses.
All in all though, as was said several times, the 1 series is not trying to compete with the NEX.
Cheers,
Bernard
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All in all though, as was said several times, the 1 series is not trying to compete with the NEX.
Well like it or not, Nikon IS competing with the NEX, and losing badly. The 1 series and the NEX are basically the same size (within a few millimeters of each other in all dimensions) and in the same price range (the nex-5n is CHEAPER than the V1 and has with better specs than the V1). Like it or not, fair or unfair, they will compete with each other.
If you look at Amazon's top 100 DSLR's (http://"http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941/ref=zg_bs_nav_p_1_p#1"), the NEX-7 (with the kit lens) is the top selling mirrorless right now trending upwards in the mid teens (17 when I posted this). The NEX-7 body only is trending up in the low 20's, two versions of the NEX-5n are in the mid to high 20's. The first 1 series offering is the V1 two lens kit in the mid to low 30's with the 1 lens kit is in the high 30's. In just 6 short days since it was announced, the J1 has fallen out of the top 100. There are 9 different NEX offerings in the top 100, compared to 4 Nikon 1 series offerings. It looks like lots of people had waited to see what Nikon had up it's sleeve and have decided to pass in favor of the NEX or other systems. Nikon 1 Series = too little, too late.
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Well like it or not, Nikon IS competing with the NEX, and losing badly. The 1 series and the NEX are basically the same size (within a few millimeters of each other in all dimensions) and in the same price range (the nex-5n is CHEAPER than the V1 and has with better specs than the V1). Like it or not, fair or unfair, they will compete with each other.
If you look at Amazon's top 100 DSLR's (http://"http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941/ref=zg_bs_nav_p_1_p#1"), the NEX-7 (with the kit lens) is the top selling mirrorless right now trending upwards in the mid teens (17 when I posted this). The NEX-7 body only is trending up in the low 20's, two versions of the NEX-5n are in the mid to high 20's. The first 1 series offering is the V1 two lens kit in the mid to low 30's with the 1 lens kit is in the high 30's. In just 6 short days since it was announced, the J1 has fallen out of the top 100. There are 9 different NEX offerings in the top 100, compared to 4 Nikon 1 series offerings. It looks like lots of people had waited to see what Nikon had up it's sleeve and have decided to pass in favor of the NEX or other systems. Nikon 1 Series = too little, too late.
Just what they thought better target group..., nothing more nothing less...., you (and others) obviously think that NEX TG is ....photographers! :o Cheers, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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Well like it or not, Nikon IS competing with the NEX, and losing badly. The 1 series and the NEX are basically the same size (within a few millimeters of each other in all dimensions) and in the same price range (the nex-5n is CHEAPER than the V1 and has with better specs than the V1). Like it or not, fair or unfair, they will compete with each other.
Cannot agree on the size of the system once lenses are factored in. As mentioned before the standard zoom is 2cm shorter on the J1/V1 (that is 2/3 of the size), the tele zoom is 4.5 cm shorter.
But anyway, I am sure that some people will look at these 2 cameras the way you are looking at them. Now, how about the possibility that these people are not the targeted population for the Nikon 1 system?
How about the possibility that AF performance is the most important spec of a compact camera for some people (even if it is not written per se on the all important spec sheet)?
Final post from me on this.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Well like it or not, Nikon IS competing with the NEX, and losing badly. The 1 series and the NEX are basically the same size (within a few millimeters of each other in all dimensions) and in the same price range (the nex-5n is CHEAPER than the V1 and has with better specs than the V1). Like it or not, fair or unfair, they will compete with each other.
If you look at Amazon's top 100 DSLR's (http://"http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941/ref=zg_bs_nav_p_1_p#1"), the NEX-7 (with the kit lens) is the top selling mirrorless right now trending upwards in the mid teens
Wait, you're comparing the pre-sale figures of two cameras that haven't even been released yet, and declaring one the winner based on that? You can't be serious. Six months from now Amazon's numbers might mean something, but not now.
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Wait, you're comparing the pre-sale figures of two cameras that haven't even been released yet, and declaring one the winner based on that? You can't be serious. Six months from now Amazon's numbers might mean something, but not now.
It's a metric. It's up to the reader to evaluate the validity of the metric. Given how the sales for the V1 have tanked on there in the past week, I'm not sure will have much to look at in 6 months... :D
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It's a metric. It's up to the reader to evaluate the validity of the metric. Given how the sales for the V1 have tanked on there in the past week, I'm not sure will have much to look at in 6 months... :D
Are you saying that:
1. some folks would be stupid enough to pre-order a camera from a new system nobody has even seen without actually trying to use them themselves?
2. You see the number of these folks as a meaningful metrics?
Even the hardcore Nikon fanboy I am would not even think of recommanding something similar! I would rather warmly recommend both the Sony NEX and 4/3 cameras as excellent choices for many usage patterns. :)
Cheers,
Bernard
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It's a metric. It's up to the reader to evaluate the validity of the metric. Given how the sales for the V1 have tanked on there in the past week, I'm not sure will have much to look at in 6 months... :D
It's an utterly worthless metric.
Are you saying that:
1. some folks would be stupid enough to pre-order a camera from a new system nobody has even seen without actually trying to use them themselves?
Exactly. Only those with more money than sense are going to pre-order the Nikon 1.
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My thoughts.
The question to ask; does the new product solve any problems. And yes, it might solve some:
1. Todays compacts and mirror-less cameras are incredibly slow in all aspects for taking photos of humans. Since family people often wants to wants to picture others in family this is a must-win :D.
2. Todays compacts and mirror-less cameras have lousy batteries that only lasts for a few shots. Not all people want to carry 4 spare batteries to capture one birthday ;).
3. Todays compacts and mirror-less cameras have to high picture quality. People want crappy solutions like Apple, low-quality music format, etc. With a tiny sensor limited by diffraction from largest aperture (on "normal" consumer zoom) Nikon delivers ???.
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3. Todays compacts and mirror-less cameras have to high picture quality. People want crappy solutions like Apple, low-quality music format, etc. With a tiny sensor limited by diffraction from largest aperture (on "normal" consumer zoom) Nikon delivers ???.
Absolutely, the same way my mac mini is delivering amazing 24 bits/192 khz music files in my living room! :)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Nikon V1 DXOMark score vs NEX....
It should come as no surprise to anyone, the NEX wins handily. (http://tinyurl.com/3ehlfan) What jumped out at me is the HUGE iso advantage from the NEX-3c. The NEX-5 is the discontinued model, they haven't tested the newer NEX-5N yet. There was a significant improvement in the image quality from the 5 to the 5n, so I expect the 5n to further outpace the 1 series.
If you care about IQ, get a NEX. If you need a fashion accessory, get a 1 series...
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If you care about IQ, get a NEX. If you need a fashion accessory, get a 1 series...
Thks for the pointer.
For those interested at looking at these cameras as photography tool with their own strengths and weaknesses... and perhaps a bit tired by the childish "mine is longer than yours" kind of speech... the DxO summary page below might be a bit more relevant:
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/News/DxOMark-news/Nikon-1-series-The-tests/Nikon-J1-a-small-camera-with-a-great-sensor
Some key fragments:
- For those who are well-acquainted with DxOMark, the measurements for the Nikon J1 will be quite surprising: the Nikon J1 sensor performs very well for a such a small sensor (8.8 x 13.2 mm for 10.4 Mpix).
- With an overall score of 56, the Nikon J1 achieves a pretty good DxOMark ranking. With regard to its size, this ranking is a big surprise, as the Nikon J1 sensor manages to score close to or even better than larger sensors (including 4/3 sensors).
- On the other hand, its low-light ISO score is a bit low: 372, which reflects the impact of the sensor size. Indeed, this score is naturally dependent on the sensor size: the bigger the sensor, the more light it captures. So even though the quality of the pixels provided by Nikon is very close to that of its main competitor, its sensor size physically limits the image quality... []... The gap between the Nikon 1 J1 sensor and the PEN EP3 or GF3 sensors comes close to ½ stop.
- So we are in fact trying to compare the J1 with its Sony competitors, the NEX-C3 and the NEX 7. The conclusion here is obvious: if you want the best image quality and the camera size doesn’t really matter, choose the larger Sony NEX cameras. (And you should perhaps wait for the measurement results of the NEX 7 before buying a NEX.)
- Nikon J1 vs Canon G12 vs Nikon P7000. This is perhaps the key comparison for Nikon: the Nikon 1 series is a very good alternative for people who are looking for a high-end compact. Their form factors are very close, but the image quality is significantly better and its interchangeable lenses could convince a lot of beginners to choose the Nikon J1.
Now, they don't speak about AF speed which should be the best of the bunch in low light conditions.
All in all, my personnal takeaway:
- The J1 looks like a very reasonable all round performer as a compact camera system, close to the 4/3 but probably overall a bit better (similar image quality, a bit smaller with much better AF),
- If size doesn't matter too much,then the NEX is an excellent choice indeed,
- If size doesn't matter at all, then get a Phaseone IQ180. :)
Now, I am glad that the DxO figures is finally recognized as accurate through. Because that would mean that my D3x really is much better than your A900. ;D
Cheers,
Bernard
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If you care about IQ, get a NEX. If you need a fashion accessory, get a 1 series...
"Engage troll mode, Scotty."
"Troll mode engaged, Cap'n."
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Now, I am glad that the DxO figures is finally recognized as accurate through. Because that would mean that my D3x really is much better than your A900. ;D
And I could buy 2 A900's and an A77 for the cost of a D3x... ;D
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And I could buy 2 A900's and an A77 for the cost of a D3x... ;D
Sorry, I thought from your NEX comments that best possible image quality was critical for you. But I guess that your application are really very focused and totally satisfied by the abilities of the camera segment between the NEX5 and the A900 then? Below the Nex5 is totally unusable and above the A900 totally not needed?
Or... you are in fact a Sony camera collector? :)
As far as I am concerned I believe that the Sony offering is extremely appealing for some applications. I love the creativity of Sony engineers, the very quick design cycles they have managed to implement,... Fascinating stuff really.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi,
I have an Alpha 900, and I'm quite happy. Would I buy another, it wouldn't improve the quality of my images. So I don't really see the logic. My Alpha 99, once it arrives next year will be better than that three year of D3X that Bernard has anyway. Well unless Bernard...
Oh, by the way...
-Lenses matter
-Tripod matters
-Person behind the camera matters
-And, of course, subject also matters
Best regards
Erik
And I could buy 2 A900's and an A77 for the cost of a D3x... ;D
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Hi,
I have an Alpha 900, and I'm quite happy. Would I buy another, it wouldn't improve the quality of my images. So I don't really see the logic. My Alpha 99, once it arrives next year will be better than that three year of D3X that Bernard has anyway. Well unless Bernard...
-And, of course, subject also matters
Erick,
Of course, you know I am not too serious here, just messing around with my new troll :-)
Cheers,
Bernard
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My Alpha 99, once it arrives next year will be better than that three year of D3X that Bernard has anyway. Well unless Bernard...
This is the Camera I'm waiting on too.
Of course, you know I am not too serious here, just messing around with my new troll :-)
Not trolling, it's all just brand loyalty based hyperbole. In good fun on this end too. And just to bring some love to this thread, and to explain my tardy reply, here's one from last night. :)
(http://www.landshapephotography.com/img/v34/p1049619224-4.jpg)
Exp: 13 Sec
Aperture: F/22
Focal Length 16mm
ISO:100
Camera: Sony A900
Lens: Sony CZ 16-35mm f/2.8
Filters: CPL
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And just to bring some love to this thread, and to explain my tardy reply, here's one from last night. :)
(http://www.landshapephotography.com/img/v34/p1049619224-4.jpg)
Nice image. Fall is coming, I love that!
I'll return the compliment with something a bit different.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6152/6175115790_5fcccff6d4_o.jpg)
Cheers,
Bernard
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This is the Camera I'm waiting on too.
Not trolling, it's all just brand loyalty based hyperbole. In good fun on this end too. And just to bring some love to this thread, and to explain my tardy reply, here's one from last night. :)
(http://www.landshapephotography.com/img/v34/p1049619224-4.jpg)
Exp: 13 Sec
Aperture: F/22
Focal Length 16mm
ISO:100
Camera: Sony A900
Lens: Sony CZ 16-35mm f/2.8
Filters: CPL
nice Lonnie. Where did you shoot this?
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Little Cottonwood.
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Bernard, Bjorn Rorslett is testing the Nikon 1 on Nikongear. I for one was ready to write this little puppy off until I started following Bjorn's work in progress. It seems the AF is head and shoulders above ANYTHING else in production! But don't take my word for it, check it out www.nikongear.com.
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If you care about IQ, get a NEX. If you need a fashion accessory, get a 1 series...
Exactly.
I still can't see a single reason why anyone who is serious about photography – and not just about the newest gadgets and gizmos – would consider one of these Nikons.
Yeah, of course they can take somewhat good pictures, provided the photographer knows what to do. But hey... come on folks: any digital camera can take somewhat good pictures. You really don't need to spend more than 600 Euros for that.
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I still can't see a single reason why anyone who is serious about photography – and not just about the newest gadgets and gizmos – would consider one of these Nikons.
Hum... an autofocus that actually works on moving subjects and dark environments?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hum... an autofocus that actually works on moving subjects and dark environments?
Well, then considering the V1/J1's abysmal performance at iso's greater than 400, I'd say these are out too...
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Well, then considering the V1/J1's abysmal performance at iso's greater than 400, I'd say these are out too...
Abysmal relative to what?
Relative to most compacts, it is extremely good.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Now, they don't speak about AF speed which should be the best of the bunch in low light conditions.
I think that I have read somewhere that the Nikon use a hybrid AF: phase in good light and contrast in low light?
-h
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I would buy a 1 series instantly if it would have a flash system that is compatible with the Nikon CLS system. Eg. I can mount a Pocketwizard Mini-TT1 on the 1 series and use it with SB900's and TT5's. If that is the case I would not even consider a Nex.
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I think that I have read somewhere that the Nikon use a hybrid AF: phase in good light and contrast in low light?
I've read and heard that as well. It was supposedly confirmed by Nikon, but have not seen "the official" Nikon statement.
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Exactly.
I still can't see a single reason why anyone who is serious about photography – and not just about the newest gadgets and gizmos – would consider one of these Nikons.
Yeah, of course they can take somewhat good pictures, provided the photographer knows what to do. But hey... come on folks: any digital camera can take somewhat good pictures. You really don't need to spend more than 600 Euros for that.
I could not agree more. On my side of the pond these things gooble up a good thousand dollars, and for that kind of coin, what exactly am I gaining? I've read over the specs - supposed to be good in low light? Well with most of the lenses starting at F3.5, and i think one lens at F2.8, they better be good at low light. Hey, my Zeiss at F1.4 is really good at low light. :)
Right now I am more interested to see what, if anything comes from the new D4 or D800, if and when they arrive.
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Right now I am more interested to see what, if anything comes from the new D4 or D800, if and when they arrive.
In case you believe in rumors, this could be interesting for you:
http://nikonrumors.com/2011/10/03/the-name-will-be-nikon-d800-the-sensor-will-be-36mp-99-probability.aspx/
The initial article in Japanese also mentions the existence of a version without AA filter. AF technology would be the same as that seen in the J1/V1, meaning accurate by definition and available on the whole frame when using live view since AF sensors are in the imaging sensor.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I already started a thread to discuss the points below until it was revealed other threads on the topic existed. So I will repost them here.
It looks like very few are all that impressed with the new Nikon 1 camera line. At first glance I was rather disappointed. The sensor is smaller than APS-C or Four Thirds. It has a 2.7 x crop factor. Also the price for either version of this new line is too high IMO. ($649.95 for the J1, $899.95 for the V1). Also the placement of some of the controls is less than optimal (like the AF lock and AE lock).
However, all that said. This camera has some incredible new features, especially with regards to video, video/still hybrid, capture rates, and it's auto-focus system. Not every photographer cares about video, but for those that do, the Nikon 1 introduces some fantastic stuff. One thing that all photographers should appreciate though, is the auto - focus system. It looks to me like this new phase detection / contrast hybrid AF with so many focal points may be one of the fastest AF's out there.
Bottom line for me: I won't buy this camera (due to the sensor size and price) but I sincerely hope Nikon will put many of these new innovative features into their next set of DSLR's. Imagine the possibilities with action and wildlife photography with that new AF system! If you like video in your still camera, just think what you'll be able to do! Perhaps I am seeing things others don't, or maybe I have no idea what I am talking about. But elements of this camera seem to have great potential, especially if they were applied to Nikon's DSLRs.
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However, all that said. This camera has some incredible new features, especially with regards to video, video/still hybrid, capture rates, and it's auto-focus system. Not every photographer cares about video, but for those that do, the Nikon 1 introduces some fantastic stuff. One thing that all photographers should appreciate though, is the auto - focus system. It looks to me like this new phase detection / contrast hybrid AF with so many focal points may be one of the fastest AF's out there.
Yep, that's the great thing about freedom of choice though, we are all grown up enough to determine what equipment might help some aspect of our photography.
I have personally been very frustrated by the AF of anything non D3/1D4 class out there on moving subjects/dark conditions, but from the reactions here and elsewhere on the web, either/or:
- very few people shoot moving subjects (kids,...),
- most people have given up on the hope that cameras might be able to focus in such situations,
- most people didn't read about the J1/V1 beyond the size of its sensor,
- they don't believe Nikon's marketing talk about the AF's abilities,
- they don't feel that image quality is as much the result of accurate focusing as it is the result of native sensor image quality,
- they feel that even if an image is sharp, it is unusable if it has too much DoF (yet, they use a compact camera...),
- they don't like Nikon as a brand or like another brand so much more than buying/looking objectively at a Nikon is not an option.
I believe that in the end, it is all about putting together a coherent/optimal set of cameras, my personal dream line up is:
- iPhone 4s in terms of pocket camera,
- Nikon J1 when I have larger pockets/anticipate an opportunity for pictures of the kids or in a party (AF matters)/carry even a small pouch/belt pack,
- Nikon D7000 for the photographic outings when weight is a serious concern/I don't want to stand out too much (like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/72157627781481847/),
- Nikon D3x/D800 for the serious photography.
Stitching, either hand held or on a tripod, is of course available to increase the resolution of any of these cameras when an un-expected need occurs.
In this line up, I just don't see space for a high end compact like a S100, nor for a less compact mirrorless system like the NEX.
Cheers,
Bernard
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For those wondering about the relevance of the iPhone 4S as a replacement for a compact digital in the line up above, the following comparison might be interesting:
http://www.macplus.net/itrafik/depeche-62488-iphone-4s-vs-canon-5d-mark-ii
I know, these are low resolution samples, but nobody would shoot anything critical with a Canon S100 anyway, right?
We'll need to see for stills and I am sure that the S100 will be much better, but the question is "does it matter for those images I would take with one?". Just came across this random sample on Flickr (I hope the photographer won't mind me pointing to his work), I am sure better can be done, but still it appears usable for a decent A4 print.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41150345@N06/6253396244/sizes/o/in/set-72157627768282307/
Cheers,
Bernard
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Team,
For those interested in this camera, I have purchased one recently with the 3 basic lenses. Importantly, I own the white version.
Haven't had time to shoot with it much yet, but so far it has met my expectations in terms of a super iPhone 4 replacement just click and get the picture kind of camera.
Face detection AF just works, focus is fast and accurate even in dark environments and the exposure has proven the most accurate of any camera I have used to date.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Face detection AF just works, focus is fast and accurate even in dark environments and the exposure has proven the most accurate of any camera I have used to date.
That is great to know Bernard. Please keep us updated on this. I am sure many want to stop speculating and just see some results from this camera.
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That is great to know Bernard. Please keep us updated on this. I am sure many want to stop speculating and just see some results from this camera.
I am 1000% sure also! ;D
Cheers,
Bernard
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I just had a kind of mini-epiphany about the Nikon 1 series.
It helped to look at some shots that I found on dpreview, mostly at ISO 400.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1058&message=39658660
Coming straight out of the camera, I've got to say this is a great look. The colors, while pumped, are still tight and well separated. The optics look clean. Noise, while not absent, is very well controlled. It's a real camera.
Then it kind of struck me. This is a serious platform with /downward/ mobility. This is a platform for a future generation of compact cameras. The price can be driven downward while retaining this level of performance, a level of performance that is surprising for any compact camera.
One thing that the Coolpii lacked in my view was a kind of well thought-out platform, something to elevate their cameras above the muddled norm. This has a polished look.
If this basic imager can be made to sell for $400 or less (even if it had a fixed lens), I think it do very well, and evolve into the future. At that price, I'd recommend it over any other compact, including the G12 without hesitating.
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I just had a kind of mini-epiphany about the Nikon 1 series.
Are you telling me I might not be the only photographer finding value in this camera? Too bad, I thought I had managed to get myself a monopoly. ;D
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6239/6283163526_162020a2f9_o.jpg)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Are you telling me I might not be the only photographer finding value in this camera? Too bad, I thought I had managed to get myself a monopoly. ;D
Up until last night, I thought "why CX in a compact body when you could put DX in a compact body?"
Now I think "why 2/3" in a compact body when you could put CX in a compact body?"
It's not going to be a pocket camera like the S100, and lenses will have to be a bit bigger. But all the larger compacts look rather like toys in comparison to the Nikon 1. Fast, responsive PD AF, beautiful colors, interchangeable lenses available. It almost sounds like the rebirth of the compact camera into what it ought to have been in the first place.
I can't imagine the premium for the CX sized sensor is really that much over a 2/3". Another $30-50, all told, if even that? Worth it.
Not that I wouldn't still like to see Nikon make a small mirrorless with an FX or DX sensor.
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Here is a full-sized JPG straight out-of-camera from the previously linked set. I'm pleasantly surprised by how well this holds together at 100%.
http://terrylane.info/photos/DSC0130.JPG (http://terrylane.info/photos/DSC0130.JPG)
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Bernard,
how do you find the handling of the camera? I played with one (J1) briefly in the store this afternoon, and found myself wishing they'd given it even a little bit of a grip. Of course, it was attached to an anti-theft device, which probably adds 50% to the weight, so it may be much better in "real life".
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how do you find the handling of the camera? I played with one (J1) briefly in the store this afternoon, and found myself wishing they'd given it even a little bit of a grip. Of course, it was attached to an anti-theft device, which probably adds 50% to the weight, so it may be much better in "real life".
The handling is compact camera like. Better than an iPhone, worse than a DSLR. It can be shot with one hand only, but sort of calls for a bit of support from the left hand.
I would agree with other reports that the mode switch is too close to the thumb and that it is fairly easy to switch from single image to the shot selector mode.
The key though is that this interface is a strong incentive to just forget about the controls and focus on images capture.
I have been impressed by the ability of the J1 to just take the picture right, well exposed, well focused without any tweaking. Just click and the shot is in the box mostly the way I want it to be in the box.
Cheers,
Bernard