Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: fetish on September 10, 2011, 12:16:24 pm

Title: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: fetish on September 10, 2011, 12:16:24 pm
Hi guys,

Just wondering did anyone here notice any difference between the recent (about prev 6 months) batches of Silver Rag rolls vs cut sheets?

Seems like only the cut sheets have the surface texture of the original silver rag. The rolls have an entirely difference surface, which is almost high gloss instead of satin-ish.

I've sent feedback to museo a few months ago and expected them to rectify the issue but the recent batch which came in about a week ago still has the problem

It's not that the new surface is crappy, in fact I totally love it! but I require the surface of the prev version for a client of mine whose work are wholly produced on the old silver rag.  :-\
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: narikin on September 10, 2011, 05:31:45 pm
Interesting, besides the gloss, it looks a little smoother too - less bump/ripple - is that so?

While we're on the topic, does anyone know what happened to the 60" rolls of this. been very hard to get for months.  Is a new batch on the way?

I also see 50"x50ft or 60"x50ft listed on various retailers sites. Never both, just one or the other. Did they make 44", 50" and 60" rolls or is this a mix up?


Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: fetish on September 10, 2011, 09:11:17 pm
Interesting, besides the gloss, it looks a little smoother too - less bump/ripple - is that so?

While we're on the topic, does anyone know what happened to the 60" rolls of this. been very hard to get for months.  Is a new batch on the way?

I also see 50"x50ft listed OR 60"x50ft listed on various retailers sites. Never both, just one or the other. Did they make both or is one a typo, or ?




Yea the texture is totally out of whack now, like the coating is being oversaturated.

does your current roll exhibit this problem?
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: fetish on September 14, 2011, 04:20:53 am
nobody else has this problem with the silver rag?  ???
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 14, 2011, 07:16:11 am
nobody else has this problem with the silver rag?  ???
I only print on cut sheets and all my paper was purchased over six months ago.  I haven't seen any sheets that have the same issue that you show.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: fetish on September 14, 2011, 07:19:21 am
thanks Alan for the reply..
it appears to only manifest on rolls. even the newest batch of cut sheets are ok.
hmmm....
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: jdoyle1713 on September 15, 2011, 10:01:05 pm
The Whole Product is different than when Crane Museo actually owned them.. Now That Intelicoat owns the Muse Brand They have ruined the whole line!!

Differnt Paper base, Different Coatings.. NO Stock.. whats next?

HMMMM

we need another supplier Like say Innova ( Since Dave Williams ) The Master behind Silver Rag to develop the paper again back to it original specs! I Know it can be done!!

Go For it Dave ! If your listening!

Cheers
Jim Doyle
Shades Of Paper
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: johncustodio on September 16, 2011, 08:02:58 am
Silver Rag was an excellent paper, but it has changed considerably since it first came out. Intellicoat seems to be constantly tinkering with it. The glossiness of the coating seems to be increasing and how it responds to ink from my Z3100 always seems different from batch to batch. However, I've finally given up on this paper because of their poor quality control. The paper is very difficult and time consuming to use because each sheet has to be examined for specks and other foreign material in the coating and paper base. Sometimes I can get several sheets in a row that are totally clean, and then several more sheets that have one or two black specks on each of them. And forget about using this paper in rolls. Rolls can't be examined before they are printed, and there is always a high probably that there will be a speck somewhere on the print.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Jeff Magidson on September 16, 2011, 12:24:58 pm
For an alternative to Museo Silver Rag, I would take a good look at Canson Platine Fibre Rag. The base of CPFR is a bit cooler but otherwise very comparable.

~ Jeff

http://artslidesboston.com
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: narikin on September 16, 2011, 01:48:36 pm
For an alternative to Museo Silver Rag, I would take a good look at Canson Platine Fibre Rag. The base of CPFR is a bit cooler but otherwise very comparable.

completely different surface and finish in Platine.
you may as well mention HPR Baryta or HPR Pearl as well.
in fact HPR Pearl is probably the closest one in surface finish to MSR.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: jdoyle1713 on September 16, 2011, 01:51:30 pm
No Canson Platine is a Rag and has the some style of coating..Its a Good cometitve product.

Cheers
Jim Doyle
Shades Of Paper ;D
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: narikin on September 16, 2011, 01:59:27 pm
I have both here in front of me.
Platine has a stipple finish, fine, but a stipple
Museo Silver Rag is a burnished gloss.

HPR Pearl is closest to that in surface.

+ Platine, like all Canson Papers, is not available in 60" rolls, as Museo SR (theoretically) was.

Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: fetish on September 16, 2011, 02:37:21 pm
ended up using HFA Baryta. the surface texture is similar to the old MSR but cooler.
it's gonna be ok for now but the real problem will come when the newer batch of prints join the older prints which are printed on the old MSR.

oh gawd... Museo... whyyyyyyyyyyy?????  :-X
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: jdoyle1713 on September 21, 2011, 10:41:15 pm
Rumor Has it Canson Platine Is coming out in 60" just a matter of time ( BY End Of Year) But you didnt hear that from me! HA

Cheers
Jim Doyle
Shades Of Paper  :o
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: fetish on September 22, 2011, 01:23:58 am
Rumor Has it Canson Platine Is coming out in 60" just a matter of time ( BY End Of Year) But you didnt hear that from me! HA

Cheers
Jim Doyle
Shades Of Paper  :o

*likes*  ;D
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: narikin on September 22, 2011, 07:29:12 am
Rumor Has it Canson Platine Is coming out in 60" just a matter of time ( BY End Of Year) But you didnt hear that from me! HA


+2   :)
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: PhillyPhotographer on September 22, 2011, 04:53:12 pm
After many problems with the "new" Museo Silver Rag and their refusal to replace damaged paper I asked Jim Doyle and with his recommendation I switched to Canson Plantine and couldn't be happier.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: narikin on September 22, 2011, 04:58:27 pm
Rumor Has it Canson Platine Is coming out in 60" just a matter of time ( BY End Of Year) But you didnt hear that from me! HA

Thanks Canson! (shhh... I mean... Jim)

Hopefully they will do the same with Baryta Photographique? - which is another of their top quality papers.
the other one I'd love at 60" is Harman Gloss Baryta (ex FBAL),  but that's another company, and another story, doubtless.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on September 23, 2011, 03:09:30 am

Hopefully they will do the same with Baryta Photographique? - which is another of their top quality papers.



The Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk is available in 50" wide rolls, the paper Baryta Photographique is based on.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Sven W on September 23, 2011, 12:17:45 pm
Quote from the factory:

"Regarding the availibility of 60" rolls, unfortunately our Baryta will never be available in such a width. Indeed for technical reasons this is not feasible owing to the coating machine which spreads the baryum sulfate all over the paper, the width of which is smaller than 60". Actually the maximum width we could achieve is 50". We are ready to plan a special batch for this. However please bear in mind this is not a stock product, therefore the lead time may be a bit longer.
However our Platine (which is a 100% rag paper base,  may be offered in 60" (just like Rag Photo and Edition) in the course of 2011. This project is in the pipe."

/Sven
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on September 23, 2011, 05:18:16 pm
Quote from the factory:

Actually the maximum width we could achieve is 50". We are ready to plan a special batch for this.

/Sven

As ambiguous as "We" in the royal sense I guess :-)


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: fetish on September 24, 2011, 01:04:49 am
updated thoughts on the 'new' silver rag surface:

After a week and about 10 prints made with this paper, I found a lot of noticeable cracks and 'holes' on the surface, especially visible in the areas with lots of black. they're not caused by material flaking off but more like the coating is unstable and cracking.
I could easily find 7 or more within a 16"x20" print.

Altho the gloss looks good, I must say that I cant use this paper professionally at this point of time due to the amount of problems it has. :-/
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: MuseoFineArt on September 27, 2011, 12:20:29 pm
We are sorry to hear about your recent concerns with Silver Rag. The industry has experienced several cotton shortages throughout 2011. These shortages have forced manufacturers like us to find alternative base paper suppliers to keep an ample supply of product in the marketplace. There are stringent qualification parameters around any new base consideration, all of which keep the product within specification. In the process of base qualification, we have seen slight variations in white point, which in turn accentuates gloss level. That said, the imaging performance and archival expectations have not been compromised.

As it pertains to the actual inkjet receptive coating, which is the most critical part, there have been absolutely no changes to the technology. We are working diligently to dial the product in. As a valued customer, it would be very helpful to us if you would participate in the testing as your feedback is valued. Please email me directly at museo@intelicoat.com or respond to this post if you are interested in participating in this testing.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: fetish on September 27, 2011, 01:05:07 pm
Hi MuseoFineArt,

I find it difficult to understand why the  surface texture of the Silver Rag 44" Roll batch F1H5401P differs so much from the Silver Rag Cutsheet batch F1B5602 (which has the old familiar silver rag surface which I've used for so long) when there has been no change in the technology?

I have absolutely no issues printing on the cut sheet but the new surface on the roll paper is entirely unuseable IMHO.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: MuseoFineArt on September 27, 2011, 01:18:56 pm
Fetish,

The F1B5602 lot was manufactured in February 2011,  prior to the cotton shortage.The surface texture is inherent in the base paper, not the inkjet coating, however, we can mask surface excess texture through coating technique. We have the product dialed in at this point and are running a coating campaign this week. I would be happy to send you samples of the latest run for your review and feedback.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: MuseoFineArt on September 27, 2011, 01:29:23 pm
The statements made by jdoyle1713 regarding InteliCoat Technologies are completely inaccurate. The Museo products are in stock and available.

InteliCoat Technologies® is a world leader in the manufacture of coated paper, film, and specialty substrates for imaging technologies, and has earned a reputation for producing innovative, highly effective digital imaging products for the ink jet printing market. A pioneer in the digital imaging arena, InteliCoat's brands of digital imaging media are award-winning industry favorites.

The InteliCoat Inkjet Coatings are what makes substrates perform in inkjet printers, not the substrates themselves. The Museo product line is consistant, repeatable and continues to be a leading brand in the inkjet fine art marketplace.

www.museofineart.com
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: fetish on September 27, 2011, 01:34:00 pm
sent a pm to you!
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Rick Popham on September 28, 2011, 06:19:29 pm
...The industry has experienced several cotton shortages throughout 2011. These shortages have forced manufacturers like us to find alternative base paper suppliers to keep an ample supply of product in the marketplace.

I was under the impression that Crane was producing the Museo base papers, but this seems to indicate otherwise.  Is Crane involved at all any more with the Museo line?
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: jdoyle1713 on September 28, 2011, 09:35:32 pm
Hello Newbie Museo Fine art..why don’t you put your actual name out here..HMMM..

Happy New Year.. Museo Finally Got a Batch of paper made.. It’s very accurate.. I had backorders for over 3 months and you could not fill product So Stop..

It’s very accurate!

Tell the truth!!! If you want to question what I actually know as a Fact Put your name out here or call me directly!!


By The way.. Just because you use the " there have been absolutely no changes to the technology. We are working diligently to dial the product in” Hit reality if you change the cotton linter supplier than its different. Otherwise you wouldn’t be trying to dial it in..Hahnemuhle tried that and ended up with a totally new product..You’re dealing with professional photographers, artists and expert printmakers that have trained eyes.. Not the consumer who is clueless on this board..

Cheers
Jim Doyle
Shades Of Paper
856-787-9200 ( Just in case you want to call ) ;D
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Jeff Magidson on September 28, 2011, 10:00:28 pm
MuseoFineArt;

First, thank's for taking the time to answer questions about your products on the forum! I am a Museo customer, so I am interested in the info. It would be more forthright of you to post under your real name. Also, please stick to the facts and spare us the marketing pablum, you will be much better received.

best,

~ Jeff Magidson

http://artslidesboston.com


InteliCoat Technologies® is a world leader in the manufacture of coated paper, film, and specialty substrates for imaging technologies, and has earned a reputation for producing innovative, highly effective digital imaging products for the ink jet printing market. A pioneer in the digital imaging arena, InteliCoat's brands of digital imaging media are award-winning industry favorites.

The InteliCoat Inkjet Coatings are what makes substrates perform in inkjet printers, not the substrates themselves. The Museo product line is consistant, repeatable and continues to be a leading brand in the inkjet fine art marketplace.

www.museofineart.com

Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 29, 2011, 07:36:59 am
All it took was an e-mail to Museo to get a courteous response back with the poster's real name and position within Museo.  I volunteered to test the new batch of MSR paper (I have a couple of boxes of "pre-shortage" MSR and should be able to adequately test black and white points as well as color gamut differences.  I will report my findings back here as well as to Museo.

Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on October 10, 2011, 04:04:26 pm
Last week I received a roll of the “new” Silver Rag from Museo.  I should have told them to send me a small sample of letter size cut sheets since I have an Epson 3880 printer and it is cumbersome to cut and decurl sheets from rolls.  Nonetheless, I cut several sheets for testing with the “old” Silver Rag of which I have several boxes.  According to Museo’s posts on LuLa, the coating process is unchanged but the paper stock is sourced from a new supplier.  The stiffness of the new paper appears identical which is a positive for me since the Museo cut sheets stay flat during prolonged storage and don’t cause problems with head strikes as some other manufacturer’s sheets.

Visual inspection of the paper surface shows little or no difference.  I did not observe any blotches, specks or any other foreign debris on the surface of the “new” paper.  However, the “new” paper is slightly less smooth under a magnifying glass (evident in the printed color patches).  I don’t think that this show up on prints but I have not tested that yet.
I used ArgyllCMS for generating target patches and reading them.  I printed 482 random patches that included four white patches and a 21 step grey set on letter sized paper.  Targets were dried overnight and read with an i1 Pro.  Duplicate patch sets were printed and each set read twice changing the direction of the reading (ArgyllCMS permits bidirectional or unidirectional reading using an i1 Pro).  CIE as D50 L*a*b* as well as XYZ data were recorded.  Black and white densities were calculated using this data and tool on Bruce Lindbloom’s website (http://www.brucelindbloom.com/).  Those results are:

“new” Silver Rag:  white – 0.0387; black – 2.2453
“old” Silver Rag:  white -  0.0375; black – 2.235

a difference that is measurable but likely visually indistinguishable.

Examination of the data on the color patches does not show much statistical difference at all except for three patches which are random colors.  This was a result of a strange reading on one of the sheets of the “old” paper for which I have no explanation.   I will probably print another set of patches just to confirm that these were anomalies.
I am satisfied that the with the exception of the very slight surface difference that these two papers are identical in color and grey scale response.  I have enjoyed printing on Museo Silver Rag and will reorder once my current stock of paper is used up.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: shewhorn on October 10, 2011, 09:20:26 pm
we have seen slight variations in white point, which in turn accentuates gloss level. That said, the imaging performance and archival expectations have not been compromised.

If the white point is changing then it DOES change the imaging performance unless we're talking about a dE of less than 1. Have you ever printed something in black and white? ;) The white point of the paper kinda plays a huge role there! When you say you've "seen" a difference in white point... have you seen that difference with your eyes, or have you seen that difference with a spectrophotometer during QA? I'll assume it's the latter in which case, what kind of difference are you seeing?

Cheers, Joe
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Wayne Fox on October 11, 2011, 01:36:37 am
All it took was an e-mail to Museo to get a courteous response back with the poster's real name and position within Museo. 
That's nice ... but it should have been disclosed to everyone.  If you are going to come onto a board claiming to be/speak for/represent a manufacturer, it's inappropriate to not validate your credentials including your actual relationship/authority.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on October 11, 2011, 08:35:30 am
If the white point is changing then it DOES change the imaging performance unless we're talking about a dE of less than 1. Have you ever printed something in black and white? ;) The white point of the paper kinda plays a huge role there! When you say you've "seen" a difference in white point... have you seen that difference with your eyes, or have you seen that difference with a spectrophotometer during QA? I'll assume it's the latter in which case, what kind of difference are you seeing?

Cheers, Joe
Joe, the 21 step grey scale data that I generated really show no difference between the two papers.  The plots superimpose on top of one another.

Alan
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: fetish on October 11, 2011, 08:39:42 am
Last week I received a roll of the “new” Silver Rag from Museo.  I should have told them to send me a small sample of letter size cut sheets since I have an Epson 3880 printer and it is cumbersome to cut and decurl sheets from rolls.  Nonetheless, I cut several sheets for testing with the “old” Silver Rag of which I have several boxes.  According to Museo’s posts on LuLa, the coating process is unchanged but the paper stock is sourced from a new supplier.  The stiffness of the new paper appears identical which is a positive for me since the Museo cut sheets stay flat during prolonged storage and don’t cause problems with head strikes as some other manufacturer’s sheets.

Visual inspection of the paper surface shows little or no difference.  I did not observe any blotches, specks or any other foreign debris on the surface of the “new” paper.  However, the “new” paper is slightly less smooth under a magnifying glass (evident in the printed color patches).  I don’t think that this show up on prints but I have not tested that yet.
I used ArgyllCMS for generating target patches and reading them.  I printed 482 random patches that included four white patches and a 21 step grey set on letter sized paper.  Targets were dried overnight and read with an i1 Pro.  Duplicate patch sets were printed and each set read twice changing the direction of the reading (ArgyllCMS permits bidirectional or unidirectional reading using an i1 Pro).  CIE as D50 L*a*b* as well as XYZ data were recorded.  Black and white densities were calculated using this data and tool on Bruce Lindbloom’s website (http://www.brucelindbloom.com/).  Those results are:

“new” Silver Rag:  white – 0.0387; black – 2.2453
“old” Silver Rag:  white -  0.0375; black – 2.235

a difference that is measurable but likely visually indistinguishable.

Examination of the data on the color patches does not show much statistical difference at all except for three patches which are random colors.  This was a result of a strange reading on one of the sheets of the “old” paper for which I have no explanation.   I will probably print another set of patches just to confirm that these were anomalies.
I am satisfied that the with the exception of the very slight surface difference that these two papers are identical in color and grey scale response.  I have enjoyed printing on Museo Silver Rag and will reorder once my current stock of paper is used up.


Thanks for your efforts testing the paper Alan,

this test shows much promise that the problem is solved, hopefully.
the difference in white and black points are probably from the minute ageing of the coating between the batches.

looking forward to test the samples Jen promised me too.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: MuseoFineArt on October 11, 2011, 09:01:35 am
That's nice ... but it should have been disclosed to everyone.  If you are going to come onto a board claiming to be/speak for/represent a manufacturer, it's inappropriate to not validate your credentials including your actual relationship/authority.

My intent in not stating my name and position within the company was certainly not to take credibility away from my statements. The intent was to keep the focus on the product itself versus back and fourth banter with former resellers. My name is Jennifer Chagnon and I am the Senior Marketing Manager at InteliCoat.

I acknowleged that there was a cotton shortage back in May that resulted in a stock shortage to the marketplace. We have since identified a cotton base paper source that is consitant and comparable to the former supplier. The inkjet receptive coating has not changed, and as previously mentioned, this is the primary performance driver for the product. Ofcourse white point is a key attribute in imaging output, however, this too can be controlled at the coating level. I am hopeful this response has cleared up any misconceptions.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: narikin on October 15, 2011, 11:40:50 am
Jennifer - thanks for your presence here.  Please know that most people's comments/ critiques are because of a love for this paper, which is one of the very best out there. I hope you can get things back to good stability of coating, substrate, etc,

Silver Rag certainly was available in 60" before, so it can be made, but maybe not on your current machines.

Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: MuseoFineArt on October 17, 2011, 08:44:59 am
Hi snowygst,

I appreciate your response. All of the feedback on the latest run of Silver Rag gives me a high level of confidence that we have achieved comparable and repeatable product with our new base supplier. We will be running again next week to prove replication, at which point, the new qualification will be complete and behind us.

The Silver Rag is in fact still available in the 60 inch width. This is scheduled in our next coating campaign and should be on the shelf within a week.

Thank you for your business!
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: narikin on October 17, 2011, 09:05:31 am
The Silver Rag is in fact still available in the 60 inch width. This is scheduled in our next coating campaign and should be on the shelf within a week.

That will be amazing if true.  We badly need a high quality 60" width baryta type. Everything great stops at 44", unless you go to Matte.
I hear Canson Platine is also coming in 60", so things seem on the move at last for big prints.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on October 17, 2011, 01:29:53 pm
That will be amazing if true.  We badly need a high quality 60" width baryta type. Everything great stops at 44", unless you go to Matte.
I hear Canson Platine is also coming in 60", so things seem on the move at last for big prints.
Just note that neither Museo Silver Rag nor the Plantine from Canson are baryta papers.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: jdoyle1713 on February 16, 2012, 01:55:21 pm
Hello Gang

Just a quick Note Dave Williams and Innova Fine art must have been reading my thread.. They have come out with a 100% cotton Gloss just like "Silver Rag"

After Testing Several Rolls The prints look really alike .. at least they look like the original SR..

Thanks Mike, Dave & Wayne at Innova for listening..

Cheers
Jim Doyle
htpp:/www.shadesofpaper.com
 ;D
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on February 16, 2012, 07:41:10 pm
Hello Gang

Just a quick Note Dave Williams and Innova Fine art must have been reading my thread.. They have come out with a 100% cotton Gloss just like "Silver Rag"

After Testing Several Rolls The prints look really alike .. at least they look like the original SR..

Thanks Mike, Dave & Wayne at Innova for listening..

Cheers
Jim Doyle
htpp:/www.shadesofpaper.com
 ;D
The bigger question will be how it stands up in light fast testing.  I got the e-mail from Shades of Paper last week about this new paper and when I looked at some comparable Innova papers in the Aardenburg tests, they were not as good as Museo Silver Rag.  Maybe this new paper will test better, I don't know but would be happy to sponsor a test of it.  I'm glad to see that Dave Williams is still working in the business (he used to work at Museo) and am also disappointed that Shades of Paper is no longer carrying Museo products though I can appreciate business decisions that you have to make.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: nemophoto on February 19, 2012, 09:13:34 am
I beta tested the new Innova Fibaprint. Very, very nice paper. If you liked the original Silver Rag, which I did -- my paper of choice, you'll love this paper. David Williams did a great job getting this paper out. I had a lot of the older Silver Rag, but as I run low, I'll refill with the new Innova.

Also, the comments on Silver Rag explains why my canned profiles from Museo for my new Pixma Pro-1 seemed out of wack. Obviously created with the "new" Silver Rag versus the "old"' which I have. Too bad Intellicoat messed with a good product. Museo's loss, Innova's gain.

Nemo
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: narikin on February 19, 2012, 09:19:14 pm
Hello Gang

Just a quick Note Dave Williams and Innova Fine art must have been reading my thread.. They have come out with a 100% cotton Gloss just like "Silver Rag"

After Testing Several Rolls The prints look really alike .. at least they look like the original SR..

Thanks Mike, Dave & Wayne at Innova for listening..

Cheers
Jim Doyle
htpp:/www.shadesofpaper.com
 ;D

Not in 60"rolls?  :-(
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: narikin on February 20, 2012, 08:24:00 am
Not in 60"rolls?  :-(

whoops it IS in 60" rolls. hurrah.
 
Innova say it comes "at a price point well below the competitive products", but looks the same price to me - damn expensive!
$420 for just 50ft.  about 4x the price of high quality 300gsm 60" Alpha Cellulose photo paper. Plus the photo paper comes off the roll without any coating errors. Ever. With these papers some prints will always be lost to flaking, marks and glitches.

Hopefully the curl is not so fierce as IFA49 was, though?  Look forward to trying out a test piece at some point.

Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: jdoyle1713 on February 20, 2012, 10:35:31 am
Its 100% Cotton Thats what makes it more expensive than an Alpha cell Paper.. It will also de curl alot better!

If Interested  on Orders Write LuLu and I will give everyone a 10% Discount off  until the end of the month!

Its a real nice Product and just needs to be seen

Best
Jim Doyle
http://shadesofpaper.com :D
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on February 20, 2012, 01:38:23 pm
Its 100% Cotton Thats what makes it more expensive than an Alpha cell Paper.. It will also de curl alot better!

Its a real nice Product and just needs to be seen

Best
Jim Doyle
http://shadesofpaper.com :D
Jack,

Cellulose is cellulose regardless of the source.  Just because one paper may be made out of cotton lint (they really don't use rag stock any longer) or another is made out of properly processed alpha-cellulose really doesn't affect the property of the paper one iota.  All that it means is that sourced cellulose is different.  Cotton just requires less processing, it's no better or worse source for cellulose.  Paper manufacturers are simply promoting "100% cotton" paper as something special and probably have a much higher profit margin as a result.  Those of us who print on a variety of papers know this and the fact that Ilford Gold Fiber Silk and Canson Baryta Photographique have been so widely accepted indicates that alpha-cellulose papers perform at the highest level.

Alan
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: abiggs on February 20, 2012, 03:59:38 pm
Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
[cotton]..it's no better or worse source for cellulose.

That's a pretty bold statement, and one that I doubt is supported by many people.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: TylerB on February 20, 2012, 04:54:05 pm
for me the d curling is a huge issue, so I hope it's true. Some of these thick photo surface hard papers coming off a large roll are almost unmanagable. HPR BAryta is far better in that regard, and it is cotton. Still way too many flecks though.
I hope this new paper performs well and I hope to try it, in the same category, Cone Type 5 is a beautiful paper that looks similar, not quite as shiny though. It's been my warmer photo surface paper here for some time, replacing SilverRag.
Tyler
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: narikin on February 20, 2012, 05:01:54 pm
That's a pretty bold statement, and one that I doubt is supported by many people.

well Aardenberg shows Alpha Cellulose papers can be great. but I guess that isn't "many people"?

Don't mix up short longevity of some papers with the fact that they are alpha cellulose. Yes lots of cheap nasty papers with high OBA's in them are made with Alpha Cellulose because its... cheaper.

That doesn't mean great high quality AC one can't exist. Look at Canon Heavyweight 300gsm Satin in Aardenberg. goes over 100years. Affordable, durable, great gamut, 100% coating defect free, and near the very top of longevity ratings. Or try Canson Baryta - that's near very top too.  Or the closely related (wink) IGFS.

Put away one's need for the "feel" of "art papers" - which is completely irrelevant once they are framed - and you find some excellent AC products out there.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: JimGoshorn on February 20, 2012, 05:13:59 pm
I like Canson Baryta Photographique and the only thing about it that seems odd is that the back of the print feels almost as smooth as an RC paper. Would prefer more of a cotton paper feel with some tooth like the Platine.

Jim
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: KeithR on February 20, 2012, 05:31:27 pm
Hello Gang

Just a quick Note Dave Williams and Innova Fine art must have been reading my thread.. They have come out with a 100% cotton Gloss just like "Silver Rag"

After Testing Several Rolls The prints look really alike .. at least they look like the original SR..

Thanks Mike, Dave & Wayne at Innova for listening..

Cheers
Jim Doyle
htpp:/www.shadesofpaper.com
 ;D

Is there a name for this substrate? :o
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: MHMG on February 20, 2012, 05:31:55 pm
Jack,

Cellulose is cellulose regardless of the source.  Just because one paper may be made out of cotton lint (they really don't use rag stock any longer) or another is made out of properly processed alpha-cellulose really doesn't affect the property of the paper one iota.  All that it means is that sourced cellulose is different.  
Alan

Alan, I think from a chemical perspective you are essentially correct, and hence a high quality alphacellulose paper may very well have the chemical stability (and longevity) of a "100%" cotton paper. However, there are distinct material property differences between cotton and alphacellulose papers that do give credence to what Jim D is saying about de-curling as well as other materials handling attributes. The molecular chain lengths of the fibers can differ.  

All papers have anisotropic material properties which leads to craft terms like "warp and weft" or "long-grain" and "short grain" paper characteristics. These material properties are influenced by the molecular chain length of the chosen linters, i.e., cotton or wood pulp, and many other factors as well, including the mechanical press properties of the paper making machinery. In other words, you could supply the same linters to two different paper mills and the products produced will still have different chemical, physical, and mechanical properties. Much of this reality is due to the fact that terms like "100% cotton" paper are really a misnomer. While the source of the linters used in the paper may be 100% cotton, the final product has many other chemical components including sizings, surfactants, whiteners, inorganic fillers like calcium carbonate, etc. Bottom line: cotton and high-quality alpha cellulose acid and lignin-free papers are still two very different final products. It's not just chemistry of the linters. It's all the other junk, plus the unique mechanical paper-forming properties associated with individual mills that produce the papers.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on February 20, 2012, 05:33:29 pm
That's a pretty bold statement, and one that I doubt is supported by many people.
Andy, I'm not talking about the coating on the paper but only about cellulose.  There is NO chemical difference between cellulose derived from cotton vs. any other source.  The issue with non-cotton sources is processing to make sure that lignin is removed.  This paper chemistry is very well understood and good paper can be made with cotton, hemp, bamboo, sugar cane, trees, etc.  PROVIDING it is processed correctly.  Cotton has commanded a premium price because of it's history and not necessarily it's performance.  Clearly there are differences in papers relative to coating, weight, OBA content and other factors but don't confuse cellulose with this.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on February 20, 2012, 05:40:47 pm
While the source of the linters used in the paper may be 100% cotton, the final product has many other chemical components including sizings, surfactants, whiteners, inorganic fillers like calcium carbonate, etc. Bottom line: cotton and high-quality alpha cellulose acid and lignin-free papers are still two very different final products. It's not just chemistry of the linters. It's all the other junk, plus the unique mechanical paper-forming properties associated with individual mills that produce the papers.
Thanks for the comment Mark.  Of course this is true which is why you see a marked difference between "cotton" papers from different manufacturers (same applies to "alpha-cellulose" papers but of course cotton is also an alpha-cellulose paper).  One of the great features of the Museo Silver and Portfolio Rag papers was their stiffness (talking about sheets and not rolls) and I've never had any problems with edge curl upon prolonged storage.  The few Hahnemuhle papers that I've used (also "cotton" based) tend to exhibit edge and corner curl pretty quickly and one needs to take some precautions prior to printing to avoid head strikes (Epson 3880) despite the fact that these are essentially the same weight and thickness as their Museo counterparts.
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: MHMG on February 20, 2012, 05:54:42 pm
The few Hahnemuhle papers that I've used (also "cotton" based) tend to exhibit edge and corner curl pretty quickly and one needs to take some precautions prior to printing to avoid head strikes (Epson 3880) despite the fact that these are essentially the same weight and thickness as their Museo counterparts.


Yup, there's a lot of anti-curl layer coating technology going into inkjet papers as well. Very few media have no back coating. Take a close look at any one of your favorite inkjet papers. Odds are good there's at least some level of back coating to counteract the curl of the top coating. Anti-curl technology is a whole other discussion, but I agree with you, Alan. HN could use a little R&D improvement there. Intellicoat has "lay-flat" characteristics in its Museo line of paper down to a science, but the coating chemistry has some interactions with the OEM inks that could use some improvement, and, of course, some supply-chain issues that were the original basis for this topic. I could go on vendor after vendor with pros and cons, but eyes would glaze over. Simply put, as end-users we have to keep pressing all the manufacturers to keep striving for better and better  :)
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Ken Doo on February 20, 2012, 06:08:37 pm
Is there a name for this substrate? :o

This should be the link to the Innova paper:  http://www.shadesofpaper.com/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=706
Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Canson21 on September 07, 2012, 01:07:33 pm
CANSON INFINITY Platine Fibre Rag 310gsm is available in  60"x50' Roll

Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: Canson21 on September 07, 2012, 01:10:22 pm
CANSON INFINITY Platine Fibre Rag 310gsm Is available in a 60"x50' Roll

Title: Re: Museo Silver Rag problem?
Post by: hugowolf on September 08, 2012, 02:51:54 am
I like Canson Baryta Photographique and the only thing about it that seems odd is that the back of the print feels almost as smooth as an RC paper. Would prefer more of a cotton paper feel with some tooth like the Platine.
... and the verso can feel even stickier than the print surface, which is really odd - perhaps an anti-curl coating?

Brian A