Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: Tim Jones on August 30, 2011, 03:50:41 pm
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This makes the Red even more appealing :http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?62580-Everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-the-EPIC-Canon-Mount
The Canon lens mount is "SMART" which means it controls camera Iris, Image Stabilization, and Autofocus electronically, via the various control options with EPIC ( touch screen, side handle, REDMOTE
And, makes for better still shooting with AF using the Red.
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:)
Ordered mine within 10 minutes of it going up on the store late sunday night. Epic + Canon 17mm TS-E + Architecture = Me Jumping Up and Down Like a Little Girl
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the thing about reduser is the loooooooooong threads make it impossible to find any info
AF - does it work with this thing and how
Is the motion of the lenses actually smooth .. or steppy
S
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:)
Ordered mine within 10 minutes of it going up on the store late sunday night. Epic + Canon 17mm TS-E + Architecture = Me Jumping Up and Down Like a Little Girl
I'd be slow in ordering an Epic. Even the RED site says this camera is not ready for full production.
Batteries, the talks of overheating, too much too worry about in production.
I have no doubt Epic will get there, but all the parts need to be on the shelf, all the beta testing needs to be completed.
IMO
BC
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Red's upgrade policy almost mandates early entry...thirty days to pay when notified or
sacrifice your place and the very generous discount.
Bob
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Cooter and I, who bought our Reds used aren't eligible for a stage 2 or 3 upgrade (unless his are "un-executed"). So, no early adopter incentive here (other than having the camera in hand). I wish I had got in a year earlier because it's actually an amazing deal. Somewhere around $20k savings for customer loyalty appreciation is rather astounding.
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Really sets the bar for customer loyalty.
Amazing product....from EXCam to raw is such a wonderful change. But a whole
new level of workflow. Still wrapping my head around some of the process.
Bob
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Robert - I can try and help on workflow advice.
Graeme
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Thank you Graeme!
In EXCAM I used Cineform FirstLight to convert to 442 10bit files in Cineform...loved the film stock emulations and color control there.
With Red I have tried ReMaster to convert to Cineform files and then mimic my FirstLight to PP 5.5 workflow but the conversion
takes forever...and lacks the control the raw workflow in RCX allows.
Mainly shooting 4K 16x9 and need a flow from RCX to PP 5.5 saving raw files but also an output at 1920x1280 for Vimeo.
Any advice on workflow will be greatly appreciated....perhaps in a new thread to keep this from getting too offtrack.
RedGamma Vs RG2? Redlogfilm?
Thanks again,
Bob
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Adobe has a pretty good native workflow avoiding the need for transcoding. Might be good to ask your questions over on reduser where PP users and Adobe can help with more details.
RG2 is better than RG. RLF is designed for when you want complete control over grading in a film-grading style and also for transfer of data over to VFX in a way there's a guaranteed linearization so they can work in linear light (you can also send then EXRs and match back to them).
Graeme
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Robert,
Have you tried using the Raw Red footage in Premier? Works beautifully of for me. Stick with RG2 over RG for sure. I'm also liking RedLog Film for it's dynamic range but it requires a lot of tweaking to get it to feel right.... I'm usually crushing the blacks a bit and adding mid tone contrast with an S-Curve.
Red Workflow thread? Why not!
Or UH... yeah, what Graeme said!
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For grading RLF you need to add in some kind of film-print emulation LUT which is a nice contrast-adding S-curve. Grading "before" that curve is film-style and grading after it is like grading RG2 "video" style. Both work - and some top colourists do both.
Graeme
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Cooter and I, who bought our Reds used aren't eligible for a stage 2 or 3 upgrade (unless his are "un-executed"). So, no early adopter incentive here (other than having the camera in hand). I wish I had got in a year earlier because it's actually an amazing deal. Somewhere around $20k savings for customer loyalty appreciation is rather astounding.
Don't get me wrong, I was one hour away from owning an Epic and have no doubt I will eventually go that direction.
I'm just under very heavy production and when I weighed (pun intended) the difference between an extra new RED One, for about 1/2 the price of a hand built Epic, which stripped own is about a 3 to 4 pound difference I figured I could eat my wheaties and lift 4 extra pounds.
I'm a big fan of RED and not because of the actual camera, but the look the camera produces. We're now in the process of cutting 10 videos. 85% of the footage is from the two REDs, 10% from the Sony FS100 and 5% from the 5d2.
The 5d2 looks good under certain circumstances, the Sony no matter what I do looks like Video and the RED looks like movie film and even knocked down to prorezz, still looks 50% better, period, bet ya money, etc. etc.
Now where this all goes in tech none of us know, because things can change in a heartbeat, but the only thing any of us want RED to do is get their cameras to market and finsihed, everything on the shelf, ready to buy.
IMO
BC
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If I had your calendar I wouldn't want to break in new gear on location either. Better to transition during "free time" when you can test and figure out what accessories you forgot to order. Funny thing is... I'm totally slammed right now and imagine that my schedule is way more relaxed than yours.
3 Projects are due this week, shooting a new furniture brochure the next two days, the new Top Shop store on Michigan Ave sunday, my first national release TV commercial next week and then prepping an architectural film shoot in DC later this month. Phew. Meeting in an hour to interview a potential Producer / Studio Manager to help me get some breathing room back. Crap! Time to go!
LOL...
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On another sort of related topic.......Maybe I am missing something out there.....You know what I have been longing for with architectural video? A motorized shift lens (or adapter for existing t/s lenses) for panning up or down tall structures (that way you could pan WITH corrected perspective. I've had to do it off of stills which is a little wanky or allow for the perspective changing through the vertical pan. You guys know what I mean?
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Kirk,
That sounds very complicated. Would a vertically oriented slider or a small jib with gimbal work?
Bob
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Grading "before" that curve is film-style and grading after it is like grading RG2 "video" style. Both work - and some top colourists do both.
Graeme
So a preliminary grade in RCX for color temp, iso FLUT and contrast then output to PP/Cineform for film-print emulation and editing is not
excessive? My stills MF workflow is so efficient that this seems like a kludge...
What is the preferred output format from RCX that approximates a TIFF with sidecar?
Thanks,
Bob
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but the only thing any of us want RED to do is get their cameras to market and finsihed, everything on the shelf, ready to buy.
IMO
BC
Maybe:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?62817-Tonight!
Bob
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Robert - I can try and help on workflow advice.
Graeme
Considering this is a thread on the Canon mount maybe you would care to comment on the suitability of using canon as a cine lens
(my guess is the motors just are not really up to it)
Also can you go through (as reuser everything is buried)
The AF capabilities of the Canon/Epic combo
Thanks
SMM
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A slider or jib is not going to get you much movement for a building exterior. Shifting a lens may get you from top to bottom on a small building but remember you're shooting horizontal, so you may not reach the top. I wonder if the gearing on the shift is smooth enough to pull off the move? Kirk, you got a 5d yeah? Give it a go. I'll check it out when I dig myself out from under shooting/retouching ;)
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I'd be slow in ordering an Epic. Even the RED site says this camera is not ready for full production.
Batteries, the talks of overheating, too much too worry about in production.
I have no doubt Epic will get there, but all the parts need to be on the shelf, all the beta testing needs to be completed.
IMO
BC
Epic-M's are hand made cameras and we asked that those buying them provide feedback to help improve the camera. The newly released Epic-X is the same camera that has the benefit of that feedback and is in full production, not hand made. I'm not aware of any overheating issues, and have had reports of Epic's performing well in temperature extremes.
Graeme
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"Epic-M's are hand made cameras and we asked that those buying them provide feedback to help improve the camera. The newly released Epic-X is the same camera that has the benefit of that feedback and is in full production, not hand made."
I called the red company the other day to try to figure out what the difference is with the epic x, m and s. I couldnt get any info. can you explain this graeme? how big are the sensors? how big is the epic s sensor supposed to be?
I also tried to get answers on the red forum but that site is unusable due to the amount of worthless replys from all the fanboys.
I want to buy a red, just want to see what the epic s is gonna be and how much it will cost. I was gonna wait for a canon video camera that shoots raw video but it doesnt seem like it will happen soon.
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M & X are essentially the same camera, features and image-making wise, but M is machined, hand built, whereas X is production made, and a bit lighter. S specs have not been released - it's a cheaper Epic with less horse-power for it's featureset and we'll tell you more on that when we're ready.
Sensors are approx super-35mm size, 27.7mm x 14.6mm
At least you have the option to buy a raw shooting motion stills camera - when we started such a thing just wasn't there so we had to do it ourselves :-) The Epic works great - it's quick to pick up and shoot with. Today the kids were in the pool so I grabbed the Epic, hit the power switch and grabbed some 120fps shots of them diving into the pool, and then pulled a still of the little one to send to the grandparents. It beats shooting test charts for me!! But seriously, it's that quick and easy to use and shoot and get some very nice shots, with a very wide range of lens compatibility.
Graeme
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nice example of pulling stills
120 FPS shot at 250
stills are sharp
what would the stills have been like at 24?
Here is an idea..
could the HDRX channel be reprogrammed to be a second exposure time a shorter one making pullable stills actually realistic proposition
at loss of recoverable DR of course
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any comment on canon lenses?
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Epic-M's are hand made cameras and we asked that those buying them provide feedback to help improve the camera. The newly released Epic-X is the same camera that has the benefit of that feedback and is in full production, not hand made. I'm not aware of any overheating issues, and have had reports of Epic's performing well in temperature extremes.
Graeme
Graeme,
Take this from someone that thinks a lot of RED and can prove it with written checks, uh actually cash.
In the last month we've shot with both our RED Ones completely around the world, over 12 terabytes of data, in 100f temperature in 100% humidity and not had a glitch.
We love the look of the file, have tested it against almost everything, shot it in real life productions next to the Canon and Sony FS100 and know how well the RED file stands up and more importantly how pretty it is, so I guess you can say we're a fan of RED.
Though today when shooting our Sound Tech who just came off a commercial shoot with two Epics said both went down (his words) multiple times during the day and he could hear the fans during shooting. Now this could be user error, it could be a million things, but this is the third time I've heard it.
I want RED to more that prosper given the investment we have in their cameras and once I'm sure the Epic is safe and secure we'll go on the list, whatever that list is.
Now I will admit I'm not a fan of "the list" because I have never understood it and when you work in heavy production the last thing you want to do is wait for anything, much less go on a moving list that doesn't have a time/date stamp.
I'm glad Mr. Jannard just announced that RED would not prior announce anything until it's ready to sell, which I think is a great idea and keeps the negative buzz way down.
I'm also not a fan of RED requiring cash instead of a credit card. Kind of silly given our studios credit line and the fact we get a lot of benifits and protection when buying by Amex.
Anyway.
I'd sure like to be able to buy or know when I can buy two bomb EVF's.
You know when?
Could we borrow a couple from Peter Jackson?
IMO
BC
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nice example of pulling stills
120 FPS shot at 250
stills are sharp
what would the stills have been like at 24?
Here is an idea..
could the HDRX channel be reprogrammed to be a second exposure time a shorter one making pullable stills actually realistic proposition
at loss of recoverable DR of course
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any comment on canon lenses?
Yes, HDRx works great for that. For me it was just too darn bright so setting it to 120fps gave me the shutter I needed anyhow!
Graeme
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Yes, HDRx works great for that. For me it was just too darn bright so setting it to 120fps gave me the shutter I needed anyhow!
Graeme
You are talking Red Mumbo jumbo
1/250th is an acepptable shutter for both still images and motion 120FPS motion
Shooting at lower shutters like 1/48 does not lead to grabbable stills
I asked if you could use the HDRx channel to shoot at 250 while the main channel is shooting 1/48
therefore leading to a true vid stream with grabbable sharp stills embedded
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I also asked (as per the topic title)
If you could expand a little on the canon/red solution
-af - does it work
-canon lens motors - do they last when used for this application
-do they step small/smooth enough to do nice focus pulls
S
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So, say you have shutter at 1/48th. Setting HDRx to 1 stop will give you a second co-joined frame at 1/96th. HDRx+2 will make it 1/192 and HDRx+3 will make it 1/384th. So no, you can't set the x track to 1/250th - but I'll take that as a feature request to allow for more control over the second track shutter speed.
AF - yes it works. Necessarily it's contrast based rather than by using separate phase detectors though. IS works too, as does electronic control of aperture to the resolution the lens allows which I think is 1/4 stop.
Lens motors lasting is a Canon question.
For "nice focus pulls" are you meaning automated where you'd set two focus positions on the camera and ask it to move from one to the other, rather than manually adjusting the lens ring control yourself? Not sure on this - I don't have the Canon mount on the camera at the moment so that's something I'll investigate when I can. I'm not sure of the current firmware lens driving functionality so when I find out I'll report back.
Graeme
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Nice focus pulls - Im talking manual
THe Okii canon controller (in a different class I know)
The motion is either steppy or slow - rendering the device IMO unusable
(the designer of that system blames the canon cameras ability to feed info to the lens)
I just wondered how the system 'feels'
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As for the HDRx channel - very interesting
I would not need 1/250 - specifically - Im just saying for natural light stills 1/48 is generally fuzzy and getting a secondary stream a couple of stops faster than that would make the 'grabable stills' dream apparently viable
Interesting stuff thanks
SMM
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As for wearing out canon lenses internals I can understand that in terms of a $100k camera package that could be considered a legitimate running cost .. and that you would not want to say that in public :)
S
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Manual focus pulls are as smooth as the mechanics of the Canon lenses allow. I think you'd want a geared bit of focus pulling hardware to assist with that as the rotational range of the lenses as still lenses is a fraction of what is used on cinema lenses. I don't think we're giving manual control via the electronics for focus pulling - that's something I'll have to check into. I've only used the lenses with "push to focus" and lens manual focussing.
Graeme
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Graeme,
Ted showed us a programmed focus pull at Reducation using the Canon mount. He set two points on the touchscreen and set the duration of the pull. It was cool as Hell! I believe that was a beta firmware and not currently enabled.
Or I was totally hallucinating, because who would believe a camera would be capable of this?
Canon focus motors? I don't hear about the sports shooters wearing out motors and their lenses would be worked harder than cine applications.
Manual focus pulls on Canon glass? Meh, I've tried it on my 5d2 and the lens mechanics are just ok, zooming is unusable. A Zeiss ZE would be a far better solution as those have buttery mechanisms.
And OH.... I do believe there will be manual control via electronic motors.... RedMote Pro :)
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You could know more than me about it at this point!! I know I'm not up-to-date on the firmware, but the one I was testing the Canon mount on worked very well with the wide variety of lenses I could throw at it.
Graeme
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Manual focus pulls on Canon glass? Meh, I've tried it on my 5d2 and the lens mechanics are just ok, zooming is unusable. A Zeiss ZE would be a far better solution as those have buttery mechanisms.
These would require a 15mm rod, but should provide a smoother zoom. The Chroszeil even claims a fluid adjustment.
http://jag35.com/store.php/products/dzoom.html
www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/666195-REG/Chrosziel_AC_102_13_AC_102_13_DSLR_Fluid_Zoom.html
Alternatively Birns & Sawyer sell this Jar Opener for use as a zoom lever.
www.internetkitchenstore.com/zylissstrongboy.jpg
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Manual focus pulls on Canon glass? Meh, I've tried it on my 5d2 and the lens mechanics are just ok,
A very diplomatic way Chris to not say "crap"
..., zooming is unusable. A Zeiss ZE would be a far better solution as those have buttery mechanisms.
Couldn't agree more.
And OH.... I do believe there will be manual control via electronic motors.... RedMote Pro :)
...and...very soon it will be remote controled via the I.phone ::) you'll see.
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You could know more than me about it at this point!!
We can excuse that, Graeme, given that you spend your days writing the best Raw code on the planet.
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Come on, I took out the Epic and shot a mushroom today. If that's not using the full features of an Epic to it's full potential, I dunno what is :-)
Graeme
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Graeme,
We've used our RED One's to great effect for stills, as long as the subject is waist up or closer and the shutter is 100th or faster.
(in fact we have about 20 retouched RED stills going into public release next month, all from the REd One mx).
Full length subjects in a horizontal frame then it becomes challanged, though useable, but I guess that should be expected given that's a leap for any small frame sensor in horizontal and given the fact the RED puts out a trillion bytes a second.
My first question, does the epic work better for pulling stills than a RED mx, given the fact the Epic is native 2:1 vs. the RED 16x9?
My second question. Will any of the auto focus capabilities of the Canon mount transfer over to the RED One?
My third question. When will the Epic have a Nikon mount?
Thx.
IMO
BC
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Epic is more pixels all-round, so it's better for stills indeed, and the lower compression options can help for stills too, as does the HDRx mode. I don't think the R1 has the other hardware needed for us to run the Canon mount on it, and indeed the Epic was designed in mind for various mounts rather than the PL on the R1. When for the Nikon mount - not sure.
Graeme
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Nikon mount (electronic) ie predicted by Red (via RedUser) to ship in October. Optitek offers a non-electronic Epic Nikon mount that has just begun shipping. AllStar (who's mount I use on my R1) is supposed to be done with their Epic mount this month and will allow adapting glass from Nikon (including G Mount), Leica R, Contax Yashica and Mamiya + PL.
Electronic shutter / focus control of Canon lenses on the R1 have been done with the Birger mount with a wireless follow focus system. Using this adapter, however, voids the Red warranty and I'm not sure if Birger is even producing them anymore. I kinda doubt Red will offer one for the R1 with everything else they have on their plate.
Yeah, I spend too much time on RedUser.
Graeme, if I was going on a shroom trip I'd want it documented in 5k too!!!
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Here's a quick mushroom though!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH6-oZcNncE
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In terms of manual control I was reffering to manual control of a lens via a controller of some nature, thumbwheel, bigger wheel (like radio focus) etc
S
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Not sure on that at all.... Sorry.
Graeme
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Forthcoming RedMote Pro is supposed to have this capability...
(http://www.freshdv.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/redmote_pro.jpg)
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Indeed, and being "forthcoming" it's not something I have used.
Graeme
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LoL.... I always grin when I mention a forthcoming Red product. You guys have so much on your plate it's got to be overwhelming bringing so many pieces to market at once!
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So that works as wireless follow focus with canon AF lenses.
Dang, Nice! The new 5Diii better be good, or i'm going Red.
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Graham
Do you know anything about the upcoming Red nikkor mount
(http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63377-Module-Ship-Dates)
Dumb? or G + Remote?
Thanks
S
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No I don't, but I can ask next time I'm down. I'm assuming that as it's needing testing it's an electronic mount as how much testing does a dumb mount need?
Graeme