Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => User Critiques => Topic started by: JohnKoerner on August 02, 2011, 12:41:51 am

Title: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 02, 2011, 12:41:51 am
(http://www.johnkoerner.org/POSTS/slender.jpg)
Slender Nursery Spider
(Pisaurina undulata)
Canon EOS 7D | EF 180mm f/3.5L Macro Lens
1/20 | f/13 | ISO 400
Natural Light | Tripod | Remote Switch



(http://www.johnkoerner.org/POSTS/flowercrabw1.jpg)
Flower Crab Spider
(Misumessus oblongus)
Aberrant White Phase
Canon EOS 7D | EF 180mm f/3.5L Macro Lens
1/13 | f/11 | ISO 100
Natural Light | Tripod | Remote Switch



(http://www.johnkoerner.org/POSTS/redwidowpost.jpg)
Red Widow
(Latrodectus bishopi)
Canon EOS 7D | EF 180mm f/3.5L Macro Lens
1/20 | f/10 | ISO 320
Natural Light | Tripod | Remote Switch



(http://www.johnkoerner.org/POSTS/woodlandjumperf.jpg)
Woodland Jumping Spider
(Thiodina sylvana)
Canon EOS 7D | EF 180mm f/3.5L Macro Lens
1/80 | f/14 | ISO 400
Natural Light | Tripod | Remote Switch



Is it possible to present creatures that most people find repulsive ... beautifully and artistically?

C&C Welcome :)

Jack

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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: wolfnowl on August 02, 2011, 01:55:58 am
Some great arachnids you have there!

Mike.
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Riaan van Wyk on August 02, 2011, 02:04:35 am
All animals are beautifull, even spiders :)

Excellent work here sir!
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Chairman Bill on August 02, 2011, 02:39:53 am
I've been doing something similar with flies dinner - maybe I should start a thread ...
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 02, 2011, 08:32:31 am
Thank you for the nice comments :)

Any criticisms or things I could have done better?

Jack


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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on August 02, 2011, 11:11:57 am
They're great, Jack. It's nice to see you posting again.

Eric

P.S. Yes, they are art!
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: RSL on August 02, 2011, 11:42:21 am
Good shooting, Jack. Looks as if leaf photography is somewhat similar to street photography. You gotta get 'em when they're there.
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 02, 2011, 12:36:15 pm
... Any criticisms or things I could have done better?

Oh, boy, so glad you asked!

It was kind of boring the last couple of months, i.e., without getting into fights with you.  ;) ;D

So, you want criticism? Are you sure you can handle it? Anyway, here it goes:

Seems that your forum absence did you good.  Less time to scribble :P, more time devoted to improving your photography. If my recollection is correct (of your earlier photography), this new series is so much more refined and elegant, your lighting is much softer and natural-looking, your backgrounds much less distracting, with a nicer bokeh (a Canon 180 macro?). Your subject positioning, framing, and choice of colors, all reflect a much stronger sense of esthetics and design than before. So, yes, you managed to turn it from a textbook illustration to a fine art.

Having said that, it mostly refers to the first three examples. The forth one is busier, with more distracting elements.

All in all, good job!

Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Rob C on August 02, 2011, 01:29:36 pm
All animals are beautifull, even spiders :)

Excellent work here sir!




That's a bit sweeping; not even all of us people can be described as beautiful, and guess in whose image we are supposed to have been made!

Regarding spiders: how on Earth can a tarantula ever be thought of as beautiful? Or a vampire bat? These things are designed to be horrid and to petrify people and other creatures into submission or a deadly panic!

Other spìders can indeed be beautiful; just as with people, then, it can vary.

Again, I don't know if I mean ;-) or perhaps ;-(

Rob C
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Rob C on August 02, 2011, 01:32:25 pm
Hey, John, welcome back!

I like your current set of beasties and colours; maybe a little bit sweet, that last one, but there you go - almost total conversion to sainthood.

Rob C
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 02, 2011, 01:36:06 pm
Quote
That's a bit sweeping; not even all of us people can be described as beautiful...

Russians have a saying "there are no ugly women... just not enough vodka"  ;D
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Chairman Bill on August 02, 2011, 01:40:33 pm
... These things are designed ...

Really? And there was me thinking it was all down to something called evolution ...
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 02, 2011, 02:00:16 pm
Good shooting, Jack. Looks as if leaf photography is somewhat similar to street photography. You gotta get 'em when they're there.

Thank you for the props, Russ, but I must hang my head in shame on the congrats for the "street" element ... you would cringe to know that all of these shots are staged :o

There is good reason though! For example, Slender Nursery Spiders are only found in swampy grass, and the idea of sticking my head sideways in mosquito-infested swamp grass to compose a shot isn't as appealing as capturing the spider, placing it on a carefully-selected blade of grass, in front of my tripod, while am seated on a chair sipping coffee sounds much nicer ;D

And, while Flower Crab Spiders are pretty easy to nail in their natural environments, I felt that this white specimen would "show" better if placed on a purple flower with a green background. Is it natural (or "street")? No. Artisitic? I think so.

And then there's the Red Widow, which is only found in the Ocala National Forest deep within the fronds of Palmettos. You'll never see one out in the open, so they pretty much have the be "placed" out in the open to be photographed ... unless you jiggle their webs and bring them out by trickery ... but I wouldn't have got the bokeh I did, placing on a lone frond like that ;D

Sorry to disappoint, but hope you see the reasoning!

Jack


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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 02, 2011, 02:01:20 pm
They're great, Jack. It's nice to see you posting again.
Eric
P.S. Yes, they are art!

Thank you very much, Eric, it is nice to be back--and nice to see you again too :)


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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 02, 2011, 02:23:29 pm
Oh, boy, so glad you asked!
It was kind of boring the last couple of months, i.e., without getting into fights with you.  ;) ;D

Even my "diehard enemies" wind up missing me ;D




So, you want criticism? Are you sure you can handle it? Anyway, here it goes:

Sure I can handle the harshest of criticisms, and I respect them when honest, and ignore them when not. It is actually through the harshest and most nitpicky accurate criticisms that I have learned the most and made the greatest changes to my photography. For this reason, I sincerely welcome any good solid critiques!




Seems that your forum absence did you good.  Less time to scribble :P, more time devoted to improving your photography. If my recollection is correct (of your earlier photography), this new series is so much more refined and elegant, your lighting is much softer and natural-looking, your backgrounds much less distracting, with a nicer bokeh (a Canon 180 macro?). Your subject positioning, framing, and choice of colors, all reflect a much stronger sense of esthetics and design than before. So, yes, you managed to turn it from a textbook illustration to a fine art.

Thank you very much, Slobodan, and I agree with you 100% on your assessment of my current photography versus my previous photography. Mind you, I have no formal education in photography, I have just learned as I go, but I try to continuously pay attention and improve. I admire the work of people who take better photos than I, and I try to learn from their techniques, which is what has improved my photography. I actually just wrote a blog post (http://johnkoerner.org/Blog/2011/07/31/the-tripod-and-the-macro-nature-photographer) about the major changes that have taken place to what I do ... and the four most important factors have been 1) using a longer lens to give myself a comfortable working distance from my subject (as well as, yes, a better bokeh), 2) always using a tripod, 3) always selecting the best time of day to shoot in order to get the best light, and 4) using LiveView/MirrorLockup and a remote switch.

Where before I was hand-holding and using a flash alot, now I can't stand the look of flash macro photography anymore, and I never hand-hold anymore either. I am addicted to the "looK' of optimal natural light ... and I either search for my live field shots only during such times, or (if I have to) I will arrange a staged shot of a subject during such optimal lighting conditions. And I think these 4 factors have made a dramatic improvement to my work, and I sincerely appreciate you noticing as well as taking the time to provide positive feedback.




Having said that, it mostly refers to the first three examples. The forth one is busier, with more distracting elements.
All in all, good job!

I appreciate and respect your opinion on the 4th photo, however what I tried to achieve in that shot was a sense of harmony of the subject with its environment, and not such a close-up as the others. I felt the "straw" color of the jumping spider was in harmony with the brown elements of the vegetation, and I thought the bright greens and purples accentuated the scene.

I also admit to enjoying the irony of my placing the spider on a Spiderwort flower ... and am surprised Wolfnowl missed that ;D

Jack




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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Rob C on August 02, 2011, 02:34:34 pm
Russians have a saying "there are no ugly women... just not enough vodka"  ;D




And the next part of that one comes from North Virginia, were certain singers proclaim that though they never go to bed with ugly women, they often wake up with them.

Rob C
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 02, 2011, 02:35:56 pm
Hey, John, welcome back!
I like your current set of beasties and colours; maybe a little bit sweet, that last one, but there you go - almost total conversion to sainthood.
Rob C


Thanks for the welcome back, Rob, and nice to see you again as well ... although the sainthood reference might perhaps be a bit off ;)

Jack


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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Rob C on August 02, 2011, 02:38:27 pm
Really? And there was me thinking it was all down to something called evolution ...


And you are right: it's the greatest bit of designing ever! It even has the economical advantage of being just-in-time based; you thought mortal economists dreamed that concept up?

Rob C
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Justan on August 02, 2011, 05:57:19 pm
These are really cool! It would be nice to see people’s reactions to these. I bet the way in which they are represented nearly or completely hides the basic creepy reaction that many have to spiders. It’s the kind of work that can alter perspectives for some.

In the Flower Crab Spider, the focus kind of confuses me. The spider is perfect but the petal is out of focus near the observer and in focus in and beyond the back side of the spider. If it were possible, focus stacking would help with this one. Is the spider translucent?

I also like the more complex scene of the Woodland Jumping Spider. The rich textures and color of the flower complement the spider and shows variety in the presentation.

Great work!
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 03, 2011, 07:27:15 am
These are really cool! It would be nice to see people’s reactions to these. I bet the way in which they are represented nearly or completely hides the basic creepy reaction that many have to spiders. It’s the kind of work that can alter perspectives for some.

Thank you Justan, this is exactly what I tried to do, was present these creatures in such a way as to accentuate the exquisite beauty that can be found  in many spiders' form and color. Spiders are really nothing but mini-predators, like tiny leopards or lions--and are in many ways vastly more successful and fearsome for their size--and yet few people can appreciate their majesty in the same way as the more familiar, larger predators. This is where macro photography comes in, by bringing them up close for full view!




In the Flower Crab Spider, the focus kind of confuses me. The spider is perfect but the petal is out of focus near the observer and in focus in and beyond the back side of the spider. If it were possible, focus stacking would help with this one. Is the spider translucent?

Yes, Justan, the spider is transluscent, and I tried to present it in such a way as to complement this. Your observations as to focusing are interesting, thank you for paying so close attention. I am actually just learning how to focus stack, and have been incoroporating this more and more to my macro photography. I do try to get everything right with just "one click" ... however, given the extremely shallow depth-of-field in macro work, I am seeing the benefits of stacking more and more. As a matter of fact, I have just captured another specimen of this spider and may try for a similar photo shoot again, using your suggestion.

As  a side note, I have been using the "stack" feature in CS5's "scripts" function ... but just downloaded a Zerene Stacker (last night, in fact) which many experienced macro stackers seem to feel is the way to go. So I will be experimenting with this new tool starting today.




I also like the more complex scene of the Woodland Jumping Spider. The rich textures and color of the flower complement the spider and shows variety in the presentation.
Great work!

I agree with you Justan, it is quite a "peaceful setting" IMO, so thank you for having a look and taking the time to comment :)

Jack



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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Justan on August 03, 2011, 11:49:03 am
>As  a side note, I have been using the "stack" feature in CS5's "scripts" function ... but just downloaded a Zerene Stacker (last night, in fact) which many experienced macro stackers seem to feel is the way to go. So I will be experimenting with this new tool starting today.



another highly regarded stacker is http://www.heliconsoft.com/heliconfocus.html
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on August 03, 2011, 11:57:23 am
The images are great.
But since you asked for ideas and what could have been done better:
I imagine trying b/w conversions on some of the images could work well.

Cheers
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 03, 2011, 03:38:36 pm
another highly regarded stacker is http://www.heliconsoft.com/heliconfocus.html


Thank you for that. It's pricing is about the same (~$300), but it sure does have a nicer interface than the Zerene Stacker.

Are there any "advantages" over using these types of stacker over just using the stacker in the Adobe CS5 scripts function? (Better? Worse? Same?)

Jack


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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 03, 2011, 03:45:22 pm
The images are great.
But since you asked for ideas and what could have been done better:
I imagine trying b/w conversions on some of the images could work well.
Cheers


Hmm, there is something I have not considered.

In general, I am a color fanatic, and find "color" to be the main attraction of certain species ...but I suppose that there are individuals/compositions that might be augmented through the simplicity of black & white.

Interesting, thank you.

Jack

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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: louoates on August 03, 2011, 04:18:35 pm
>As  a side note, I have been using the "stack" feature in CS5's "scripts" function ... but just downloaded a Zerene Stacker (last night, in fact) which many experienced macro stackers seem to feel is the way to go. So I will be experimenting with this new tool starting today.



another highly regarded stacker is http://www.heliconsoft.com/heliconfocus.html


When I compared CS5 stacks with my 1 yr old version of heliconfocus I couldn't see any difference. I've been quite happy with CS5 since. Note please that I don't do a lot of stacking.
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 04, 2011, 03:35:29 pm
Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Heinz on August 04, 2011, 04:42:46 pm
A great set of images. Luv the natural light on them. Well done.
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 04, 2011, 07:55:28 pm
Thank you :)
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 05, 2011, 07:51:02 am
When I compared CS5 stacks with my 1 yr old version of heliconfocus I couldn't see any difference. I've been quite happy with CS5 since. Note please that I don't do a lot of stacking.


I have answered my own question: The Adobe Photoshop CS5 stacker gave me, by far, the best results in really tricky stacking situations.

Here is my report (http://johnkoerner.org/Blog/2011/08/05/photo-stackers-compared) :D

Cheers!

Jack

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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Justan on August 05, 2011, 12:33:14 pm
Sorry I missed your earlier inquiry re stacking sw. I haven't worked with image stacking sw yet so don't have an answer. But I clicked on the link you provided above but got an error.
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 05, 2011, 02:07:01 pm
Sorry I missed your earlier inquiry re stacking sw. I haven't worked with image stacking sw yet so don't have an answer. But I clicked on the link you provided above but got an error.


Sorry! I fixed the link. Hit refresh and try again if you're interested.

If you look over each the whole images you will see duplicate "ghost" artifacts everywhere with the other programs, plus a ruined bokeh in the Helicon rendering, but none of this in the Adobe.

Jack


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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Justan on August 05, 2011, 04:34:50 pm
Great blog article! Informative, concise and with great illustrations. I look foreword to seeing how the effects of focus stacking becomes added to your work.
Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 05, 2011, 06:21:22 pm
Great blog article! Informative, concise and with great illustrations. I look foreword to seeing how the effects of focus stacking becomes added to your work.


Thank you Justan, I will be working on some.

Cheers!


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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 09, 2011, 06:17:45 pm
Had my single "stack comparison" result questioned, so I ran a much more intensive and exhaustive test on these 3 programs again, and once again the Adobe CS5 Extended prevailed every time.

I ran tests on simple 2-stack images on basic images, to 13-image stacks on complex images, and Adobe CS5 simply shined compared to the other stacking programs IMO.


 ((( Full and Detailed Report Here )))  (http://johnkoerner.org/Blog/2011/08/09/focus-stacking-software-revisited)


Jack

EDIT: I have now added both of Zerene's stacking modes to this test, and for those who can't be bothered with reading and actually seeing the results for themselves (LOL), here is a summary:

* Adobe CS5 Extended Stacker: First Place (7x out of 7)
* Zerene Stacker (Pmax): Second Place (Tied for First Place 3x, Second Place 3x, Loser 1x)
* Helicon-Focus Stacker: Third Place (Tied for First Place 1x, Second Place 2x, Loser 4x)
* Zerene Stacker (Dmap): Last Place (First Place 0x, Second Place 3x, Loser 4x)


Click on the above link for full details 8)

Jack


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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: JohnKoerner on August 11, 2011, 06:56:54 am
A few more ...


(http://johnkoerner.org/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/longjaw.jpg)
Long-Jawed Orb Weaver (Tetragnatha pallescens)


(http://www.johnkoerner.org/Spiders/barklynx.jpg)
Bark Lynx (Hamataliwa grisea)


(http://www.johnkoerner.org/ExoticOddities/twig.jpg)
Twig Crab Spider (Tmarus sp.)



Jack



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Title: Re: Spiders as Art?
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on August 11, 2011, 08:06:19 am
Again: Wow!