Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: jsch on July 23, 2011, 06:50:13 pm
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Hi,
I'm searching for advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890, links - books, everything is welcome.
With my custom profiles (Eye-One Pro) I still get color cast issues. I did a research and the best I could find is this article about the 4800 series: http://gerryeskinstudio.com/ABW_sept08_paper/index.html
Does this info also apply to the 9880 and 9890?
Thank you
Best,
Johannes
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See Eric Chan's FAQ (http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html) on the Epson 3800. There is a whole section on B/W printing using the Epson ABW driver. He also makes profiles for this driver a B/W target set. I've used them on both the Epson 2880 and 3880 (my current printer) and have never had any color cast to the prints at all. I assume the larger Epson printers will behave the same way using this print driver. You don't say whether you are printing via this route or not.
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Does this info also apply to the 9880 and 9890?
I can't speak for Windows, but ABW is broken in Photoshop CS5 and/or Mac OS X 10.6 (and presumably Lion). I've kept a copy of Photoshop CS3 and 10.5 solely for this reason and do all my B&W printing through this. If you're on these older versions you can download a copy of QuadToneRIP and build a linearization profile to go with your tuned ABW settings. You then use this profile for soft-proofing as well as linearizing the output (to the best of the paper's capabilities).
Compare the results below of printing on Epson Hot Press Natural (on a 9900) firstly through a colour profile (HPN) then through ABW and a linearization profile (HPNBW).
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You will learn a lot from Eric's blog a great read. I am still debating which method is better Epson ABW or quadtone rip for 7800 and 9880.
Paul Caldwell
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You can download ColorBase from Epson UK website and linearize the printer first.
Let say if you use Luster paper or any paper that will use Luster as the media type, then you will have to use Epson luster paper to re-linearize the printer.
It works for me very well on my previous 4880 and 9880.
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You will learn a lot from Eric's blog a great read. I am still debating which method is better Epson ABW or quadtone rip for 7800 and 9880.
Paul Caldwell
I've tested both and visually they are identical. When you do actual measurements there is a slight difference but it's within experimental error of measurement. I made OTR profiles using a 51 step B/W patch set generated and read withing ArgyllCMS using an i1 Pro.
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I can't speak for Windows, but ABW is broken in Photoshop CS5 and/or Mac OS X 10.6
In my tests, ABW works with CS5 + OS X when the rendering intent is set to Relative Colorimetric.
Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manger, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.
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I can't speak for Windows, but ABW is broken in Photoshop CS5 and/or Mac OS X 10.6 (and presumably Lion).
Working fine for me. What settings are you using in terms of the image’s embedded profile, what you select in Photoshop’s Print dialog?
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Rob Sheppards Epson Complete Guide to Digital Printing
http://www.amazon.com/Epson-Complete-Guide-Digital-Printing/dp/1454702451/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_4
has a section on Epsons ABW Feature.Maybe not as advanced as you'd like but usefull non the less.
It has been available for a long time now despite the not yet released disclaimer on this page
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Rob Sheppards Epson Complete Guide to Digital Printing
has a section on Epsons ABW Feature.
It's a great book for those not looking for something super-advanced.
When I provided input to Rob Sheppard on the original content a few years ago, the recommendation for ABW was to select "No Color Management". In that scenario rendering intents were greyed out. As noted in an earlier post, starting with CS4 and today with CS5 on OS X, select "Printer Manages Colors" to access ABW and be sure the rendering intent is set to "Relative Colorimetric".
I believe the last revision of the book was published before the release of CS4.
In addition, many find the default of "Darker" to be too dark and "Dark" is a better starting point.
Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.
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Working fine for me. What settings are you using in terms of the image’s embedded profile, what you select in Photoshop’s Print dialog?
I'm using a colour managed workflow (Photoshop Manages Color) ... the same as espoused by Eric Chan on his 3800 pages. The image profile (specifically its gamma) isn't relevant as the linearization profile will translate, plus correct any deviations from non-linearity. This method also permits soft-proofing.
Unfortunately it produces incorrect results with CS5 and/or 10.6 on a Mac. I don't have a 3800 but suspect anyone using Eric's profiles will be seeing too light or dark results. As most are painfully aware, Apple have been mucking around with the printing subsystem for some time and unfortunately it's necessary to retest after each CS/OS release.
The following is the method I use to evaluate B&W (and colour) output for linearity, gray-balance/neutrality, shadow detail etc:
Download the QuadToneRIP package (www.quadtonerip.com). From this we don't need the driver, just some of the bits in the package. Open the Step-51-gray.tif or Step-51-random.tif stepwedge and assign the included
"QTR - Gray Lab" profile (this is necessary as we're going to graph the output with L* on the vertical axis). Print and measure with MeasureTool (or equivalent) and drag the measurement file onto QTR-Linearize-Data.app (or QTR-Create-ICC.app) and view the results. If you're serious about B&W this will tell you everything you need to know, how your driver settings are performing. If anyone is interested in doing this, post the output file here and I will tell you how to interpret the results, what to look for etc.
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As noted in an earlier post, starting with CS4 and today with CS5 on OS X, select "Printer Manages Colors" to access ABW and be sure the rendering intent is set to "Relative Colorimetric".
I'm sorry Dano but this method isn't satisfactory as it's outside of a colour managed workflow, doesn't permit linearization nor soft-proofing. The fact that the default driver values for Epson's own papers don't produce the correct results should sound warning bells that it's broken.
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it's outside of a colour managed workflow, doesn't permit linearization nor soft-proofing.
Correct, but ABW was never a true colour managed workflow, even in CS3.
(Though Eric Chan did some remarkable profiles for ABW that worked for many)
Today, one can get excellent BW output through a traditional icc workflow or the ABW.
That was not the case just a few years ago.
One thing to consider with ABW is that it will produce prints with increased lightfastness.
Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.
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Even being a color geek, I’m with Dano on this one. Yes, you don’t use a true ICC workflow with ABW, its a black box. There are some advantages and disadvantages to using either a true ICC workflow or ABW. But ABW works under 10.6 and CS5! It works really well. It uses less ink, the prints are more archival. No you can’t soft proof. No, you can’t control the toning using anyone but Mr. Gorman’s image preview. But you’ll get far more neutral output with the advantages expressed above with ABW than an ICC profile. Pick the route that works best for the task at hand. But again, ABW is not broken in Photoshop CS5 and/or Mac OS X 10.6, at least on my end with a 3880.
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And a much better option, and has always been so, is to use a well linearized curve out of QTR. The sooner Epson opens up the 9900 to QTR the better off they will be.
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I believe if you are using a custom QTR curve, generated by QTR, you will have to print from QTR. As I understand the
generation of an icc profile, it's only to allow you to soft proof your custom QTR curve. I don't think that LR3 will print
the image correctly even if you have generated the icc profile. But you might try it and see what you get. In CS5 and CS3
after you create the icc profile with the dedicated tool, they load into windows at the very bottom of all the icc profiles.
spool==drivers==color
Paul Caldwell
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I believe if you are using a custom QTR curve, generated by QTR, you will have to print from QTR. As I understand the
generation of an icc profile, it's only to allow you to soft proof your custom QTR curve. I don't think that LR3 will print
the image correctly even if you have generated the icc profile. But you might try it and see what you get. In CS5 and CS3
after you create the icc profile with the dedicated tool, they load into windows at the very bottom of all the icc profiles.
spool==drivers==color
Paul Caldwell
I don't think this is correct. The profiles work the same way color profiles work. I did the experiment and printed a 21 step gray scale out with and without profile and there is a measurable difference.
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I believe if you are using a custom QTR curve, generated by QTR, you will have to print from QTR. As I understand the
generation of an icc profile, it's only to allow you to soft proof your custom QTR curve. I don't think that LR3 will print
the image correctly even if you have generated the icc profile. But you might try it and see what you get. In CS5 and CS3
after you create the icc profile with the dedicated tool, they load into windows at the very bottom of all the icc profiles.
spool==drivers==color
Paul Caldwell
That is not correct. The Greyscale or RGB QTR profiles can be used in the software you print from (Photoshop on a MAC and QTR as the driver) and the tone range in QTR is influenced by them. Not the color which is purely described by the QTR ink settings. The color however can be visualised on your screen through the softproof part of the QTR profile. The QTR profile is in fact just a tone curve encapsulated in an "ICC" hull + some a b data for the softproof.
QTR is not used like a normal printer driver on Windows so the process is different there but the profiles can still be used. For example a profile (Gamma 2.2) to profile (QTR profile) conversion in Photoshop will do the same and the resulting file can be loaded in QTR to print, QTR does not know color management but Photoshop did the job in this case.
Another approach is to use QTR created profiles in applications with CM but not using QTR to drive the printer. For example Qimage + the RGB variant of QTR profiles to drive a HP Z3100 in "ABW" mode. QTR profile created with a target that was printed on the same route so without QTR as the driver.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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Right, wither we're talking about QTR Curves or QTR Profiles, they can both be used for any printing method (as long you know how to do so!). I've been making a number of profiles for alt-processes like cyanotypes, platinum palladium, copperplate photogravure lately with different printers, inksets, drivers.
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Even being a color geek, I’m with Dano on this one. Yes, you don’t use a true ICC workflow with ABW, its a black box. There are some advantages and disadvantages to using either a true ICC workflow or ABW.
Try to keep up Andrew. I am using ABW for the reasons you cited. This uses a grayscale profile rather than an RGB one. And I can soft-proof. But I do so under CS3 and 10.5 because later versions produce incorrect output. Clear now?
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Try to keep up Andrew. I am using ABW for the reasons you cited. This uses a grayscale profile rather than an RGB one. And I can soft-proof. But I do so under CS3 and 10.5 because later versions produce incorrect output. Clear now?
Nope its not, in that ABW doesn’t use an ICC profile nor was it intended to. If you use ABW as it was intended, it works fine under 10.6 in CS5.
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There are some advantages and disadvantages to using either a true ICC workflow or ABW.
I think this should read "either a color or ABW workflow..." since we can make ICC profiles for both workflows.
...you don’t use a true ICC workflow with ABW, its a black box.
You've used QTR-Create-ICC to make ICC profiles for ABW printing right? It's fantastic. If you print with the profile you've get even better tonality without the subtle contrast and density adjustments you get without one. Plus you can soft proof complete with the toning of the process. It's really fantastic.
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And a much better option, and has always been so, is to use a well linearized curve out of QTR. The sooner Epson opens up the 9900 to QTR the better off they will be.
The only real world advantage that QTR has over ABW is split-toning.
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No, I do NOT build ICC profiles using QTR for ABW. I either tone my work as I wish and use my own ICC color profiles OR I use ABW as it was designed. I’m happy with both processes depending on the needs at hand. When I use ABW is when I want a very neutral (non color toned) output and I want the driver to do the heavy lifting (convert the color data on the fly). IF I use my own conversions to B&W, I use my own profiles. Again, when ABW is used AS DESIGNED there’s nothing broken in 10.6/CS5. You add some outside process to the works, anything is possible.
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I agree - ABW works fine under CS4 and CS5 under 10.6 as it's intended. Add QTR profiles on top of it if you like to geek out.
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I agree - ABW works fine under CS4 and CS5 under 10.6 as it's intended. Add QTR profiles on top of it if you like to geek out.
Yes, and the QTR profiles are relatively modest corrections (at least in my testing on my 3880). The one advantage is you can soft proof using them which is useful. Remember, ABW gives you about a 5-10% greater Dmax depending on the paper and this will obviously expand the gray scale which is useful for shadow detail.
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Nope its not, in that ABW doesn’t use an ICC profile nor was it intended to.
Though it was never documented, if you sent ABW an image with an L* (not 2.2 as commonly reported) gamma and used No Color Management you got *perfectly* linear results on Epson's papers with default driver settings. Guess what, L* is used in the PCS so adding a profile to remap to L* is a perfectly viable approach. These profiles can be used to linearize third-party papers (or changes to the default driver settings). And because they incorporate colour readings of the toning at each step, they can also be used for soft-proofing. This isn't rocket science.
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This isn't rocket science.
Neither is posting a comment on a forum that is NOT unclear and implies something that several people have specifically corrected. Look at your first post here, you wrote something that isn’t correct:
I can't speak for Windows, but ABW is broken in Photoshop CS5 and/or Mac OS X 10.6 (and presumably Lion). I've kept a copy of Photoshop CS3 and 10.5 solely for this reason and do all my B&W printing through this.
If you want to take the topic OT and talk about RIPs, and L*, start a post and clearly explain your POV.
Two of us have said (and a third person agreed), in terms of your post that there is nothing broken in ABW in 10.6 in CS5. Period. Clear? This isn’t rocket science either. If you want to talk about rocket science, or color science, do so without taking a current topic way OT, please.
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Two of us have said (and a third person agreed), in terms of your post that there is nothing broken in ABW in 10.6 in CS5. Period. Clear?
Attached are the results I just got on my 9900. The first with Photoshop CS3, the second with Photoshop CS5. Both on 10.5.8. Exact same profile and media settings. Note the difference at the L*=50 mark (51.5 and 48.3). This difference is visible and repeatable. I suggest anybody using a comparable workflow would be well advised in doing the same measurements.
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Attached are the results I just got on my 9900. The first with Photoshop CS3, the second with Photoshop CS5. Both on 10.5.8. Exact same profile and media settings. Note the difference at the L*=50 mark (51.5 and 48.3). This difference is visible and repeatable. I suggest anybody using a comparable workflow would be well advised in doing the same measurements.
I just plopped the data into Excel to see what the plot looks like (I don't particularly care for the QTR plots) and no question about the change and it is most prominent between steps 16 & 40. It looks as though the linearity is completely lost (based on how my before and after curves look) and that for some reason CS5 may not be recognizing the profile at all. If you have LR, do you see comparable results? This might help isolate the problem. I print mainly from LR but when I recently prepared some QTR profiles, I did double check them against a print of an unprofiled 21 step B/W wedge using CS5 on a Win7 machine and the profiles looked fine (e.g., they did provide the desired linearization). You might want to post these results on the QTR tech group blog (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/) to see if any other Mac/CS5 users have seen the same thing.
One other question (though this might open up another can of worms), if this happens for QTR profiles, can one be confident of color profiles made prior to these software updates? Maybe it's just an artifact of QTR (one would really hope this would be the case otherwise there would be a lot of angry people out there).
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Just sent a 918 patch target though CS5 and CS4 identically (don’t have CS3 installed, I’ll do it if you insist). Used ABW, measured on the iSis, Avg dE is 0.68! Let the target dry down, that will go a lot lower (these prints are fresh out of the 3880).
So No, again, terms of your post, there is nothing broken in ABW in 10.6 in CS5. But there could be something broken in your beloved QTR profiles or how you built em, used em etc.
Use ABW correctly as designed, and works as it should. In CS4, and in CS5. No reason to believe CS3 is any different and the original post clearly put the blame on CS5.
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One other question (though this might open up another can of worms), if this happens for QTR profiles, can one be confident of color profiles made prior to these software updates? Maybe it's just an artifact of QTR (one would really hope this would be the case otherwise there would be a lot of angry people out there).
For completeness I've attached the results for 10.6 (same paper, profile, settings etc). This is yet darker still (45.9). I don't think this is the fault of QTR's profiles as I've seen the same general movements with grayscale profiles created with basICColor print. Frankly, I've wasted too much time with all this and it's easier to just go back to CS3 and 10.5 to print B&W. In my testing, colour output is fine and now use CS5 (running on 10.5) for the majority of my work.
If you're using Eric Chan's profiles for the 3800/3880 note that these don't go nearly far enough. You really need to tune the placement of the a/b curves with ABW's Horizontal & Vertical controls (this will generally require a re-linearization). The Color Density driver setting can also be useful for some papers. If you're serious about B&W it would be worth your while investing in an i1Pro and doing all this yourself.
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For completeness I've attached the results for 10.6 (same paper, profile, settings etc). This is yet darker still (45.9). I don't think this is the fault of QTR's profiles as I've seen the same general movements with grayscale profiles created with basICColor print. Frankly, I've wasted too much time with all this and it's easier to just go back to CS3 and 10.5 to print B&W. In my testing, colour output is fine and now use CS5 (running on 10.5) for the majority of my work.
If you're using Eric Chan's profiles for the 3800/3880 note that these don't go nearly far enough. You really need to tune the placement of the a/b curves with ABW's Horizontal & Vertical controls (this will generally require a re-linearization). The Color Density driver setting can also be useful for some papers. If you're serious about B&W it would be worth your while investing in an i1Pro and doing all this yourself.
Strange results on the Mac/CS5 combination indeed. Thanks for the tip on refining the profiles; I'll do some more work on this. I generally find that the 'dark' setting works better for me than the 'darker' one as Eric has advocated for some papers. I think this is clearly an issue of having a lot of variables to tweak.
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One other question (though this might open up another can of worms), if this happens for QTR profiles, can one be confident of color profiles made prior to these software updates? Maybe it's just an artifact of QTR (one would really hope this would be the case otherwise there would be a lot of angry people out there).
Its absolutely not doing this with profiles I’ve built, its not doing it with ABW using Adobe RGB (1998) as the profile selection (otherwise, how would I use CS5 which has no No Color Management option and requires the use of Photoshop Manages Profile)?
Is it QTR? Could be, don’t care, don’t use it. You guys futz with it. Using my ProfileMaker Pro, PROFILER or i1P profiles, Epson profiles, ABW AS designed, CS4 and CS5 under 10.6 is all good.
We all got dragged down this rabbit hole due to a post that was both unclear in terms of actual usage and is basically incorrect in terms of ABW outside QTR!
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Something strange must be going on as I saw exactly the same problem with Mac OS/CS5 and the Epson ABW driver over at Photo.net (http://photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00Z5gy).
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Well I think Patrick summed it up: what do you find weird? that i use the ABW correctly? ; )
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Well I think Patrick summed it up: what do you find weird? that i use the ABW correctly? ; )
NO, only that another user was having the same problems on the Mac OS and CS5. I was not casting any aspersion on your use only noting that there are now two reports of the ABW driver not working properly. The user on photo.net had all the correct settings and was using Eric Chan's profile and still getting a poor print. That implies that in HIS system something is not working.
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NO, only that another user was having the same problems on the Mac OS and CS5. I was not casting any aspersion on your use only noting that there are now two reports of the ABW driver not working properly. The user on photo.net had all the correct settings and was using Eric Chan's profile and still getting a poor print. That implies that in HIS system something is not working.
Maybe you guys need to dive deeper into the exact workflow with profiles such as Eric’s, or QTR, driver versions etc. I’ve done the testing here, I’m confident that ABW works properly and identically on CS4 and CS5. Dano said the same. Onsight said the same. More than a few users of ABW are saying the same by not complaining its broken. Based on the history of print drivers and Apple OS’s, its quite possible something is up but its sounding like a very, very rare condition and in the two I’ve heard of thus far, they are deviating from the recommended process of using ABW.
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Maybe you guys need to dive deeper into the exact workflow with profiles such as Eric’s, or QTR, driver versions etc. I’ve done the testing here, I’m confident that ABW works properly and identically on CS4 and CS5. Dano said the same. Onsight said the same. More than a few users of ABW are saying the same by not complaining its broken. Based on the history of print drivers and Apple OS’s, its quite possible something is up but its sounding like a very, very rare condition and in the two I’ve heard of thus far, they are deviating from the recommended process of using ABW.
It's not up to me since I have a Win7 computer and it works fine with or without profile, either printing via CS5 or LR. I'm bowing out of this discussion since I see no further point to raising any issues and will leave it up to Mac users who are having problems to work it out on their own.
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I don't fine ABW problematic to use on my Mac. I print through Lightroom print module and tone my images to 25/50 and a few other settings in the toning options in ABW. Neutral prints are great too tho most of the time I tone slightly. I have a 9880 and 7900 printers. Used to use Imageprint but find I prefer ABW better. Eleanor
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Just curious. . . . I assume that ABW is optimized for Epson papers. Does it work equally well on third party papers? If not, could that be an underlying cause of some / all of the issues raised earlier?
Terry.
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Just curious. . . . I assume that ABW is optimized for Epson papers. Does it work equally well on third party papers? If not, could that be an underlying cause of some / all of the issues raised earlier?
Terry.
Nope, it works fine on 3rd party papers which are the only kind I use on my 3880 (both matte and gloss give fine results and I've confirmed the B/W ramp with an i1 Pro).
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Just curious. . . . I assume that ABW is optimized for Epson papers. Does it work equally well on third party papers? If not, could that be an underlying cause of some / all of the issues raised earlier?
You're probably aware that in Epson's world there are only Epson papers. It is however possible to accommodate third-party papers but it does require some work. It generally takes me a few days to develop media presets for a new third-party paper, waiting for step wedges to dry etc. Just to show you how involved it can get, the last few output tests I attached were for Canson Infinity Rag Photographique Duo. Note the uniformity of toning (a and b values) throughout the range ... at least the best I could do. This was achieved with the following settings:
Media Type: Textured Fine Art Paper
Color Density: +7%
Tone: Darkest
Horizontal: -2
Vertical: -10
Finally the output was linearized with a profile for a target of L*=50 with the same value in. Now many here I doubt would be bothered to go this far, or find the controls that QTR offers more to their liking. It all comes down to how particular you are ... and I gather from the preceding discussion that many aren't.
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You're probably aware that in Epson's world there are only Epson papers.
I’m aware that in many Epson printer dialogs, there are Epson media settings for their papers. I don’t have a newer generation Epson but I was under the impression that they provide a means of making a custom media setting?
I do have a Canon printer that is recent enough to provide a tool to produce custom media settings and I’m not impressed that the work involved was all that useful.
That said, I’ve built literally hundreds of profiles for Epson printers for customers using 3rd party papers, using the standard Epson media settings and so far, its worked out pretty well.
It generally takes me a few days to develop media presets for a new third-party paper, waiting for step wedges to dry etc. Just to show you how involved it can get, the last few output tests I attached were for Canson Infinity Rag Photographique Duo. Note the uniforming of toning (a and b values throughout the range) ... at least the best I could do. This was achieved with the following settings:
With or without a custom media setting, the driver’s linearity leaves a bit to be desired. That said, I suspect thousands if not more Epson customers are printing with canned media settings, 3rd party papers and ABW and producing results they are more than pleased with. Customers like Alan.
There are complaints out there in the printer world we hear about on line. The media settings doesn’t seem to take up much volume there.
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There are complaints out there in the printer world we hear about on line. The media settings doesn’t seem to take up much volume there.
Maybe there should be. For example, Epson only sells PK papers with gobs of OBA's and their media presets are tuned to the respective whitepoints. Unless you really work at it, you won't achieve B&W output without toning crossovers. It shouldn't be this hard.
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Maybe there should be.
Ah, OK they are not unhappy, you are, so they should be too?
For example, Epson only sells PK papers with gobs of OBA's and their media presets are tuned to the respective whitepoints. Unless you really work at it, you won't achieve B&W output without toning crossovers. It shouldn't be this hard.
Nothing stops them from using 3rd party papers! The points I made was, its possible, people use them, people find the media settings work reasonably well and don’t complain (but you think they should). Now maybe most of these users don’t have the standards you do, that’s fine. You appear to want to dink around for a day making custom settings, that’s great. So all the other Epson users who don’t are then what, wankers?
This kind of goes back to the QTR vs, using the ABW as designed. You want to use QTR, great. Not going down that path isn’t the same as saying ABW is broken in CS5. Its a trade off.
Some folks are quite willing to spend a lot of money on a 3rd party driver like ImagePrint. But that doesn’t mean those that don’t are foolish or are unhappy with their output. While I’m a fan of IP for some of the stuff it does, its also a buggy little sucker that at times makes we want to strangle its little neck! And I suspect this bug issue with CS5 you report will make you want to strangle QTR or some other area’s little neck because again, when used as directed, ABW works just fine (for many, many users).
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You want to use QTR, great.
I don't use QTR (the driver). Apart from the fact that it doesn't work on the 7900/9900 I have, I found I could achieve comparable results with tweaks to ABW settings (sans split-toning as mentioned above).
And yes, adequate support for the papers I choose to use is a major consideration in any future printer purchase.
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And yes, adequate support for the papers I choose to use is a major consideration in any future printer purchase.
Do not the newer Epson’s provide this? Provide the means to create custom media settings?
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Do not the newer Epson’s provide this?
No. The papers I use will generally take more ink than the media presets allow. They just aren't linearized for this. Not that the output isn't satisfactory (even excellent) but they could be better still. It's like any tool, the more you use it, the more you learn what it can and can't do, what its limitations are.
Actually, a more correct answer is that there are custom presets but these only allow for paper thickness, drying time, stepping adjustments etc ... not ink loading or linearization which must be modeled on an existing media preset (and LUT). As such they're not that useful.
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No. The papers I use will generally take more ink than the media presets allow. They just aren't linearized for this. Not that the output isn't satisfactory (even excellent) but they could be better still. It's like any tool, the more you use it, the more you learn what it can and can't do, what its limitations are.
Actually, a more correct answer is that there are custom presets but these only allow for paper thickness, drying time, stepping adjustments etc ... not ink loading or linearization which must be modeled on an existing media preset (and LUT). As such they're not that useful.
I thought they did address ink loading. I seem to remember an article by Mark Dubavoy a while back saying that he never uses the Epson presets since they don't allow enough ink on the paper for the brands he prints on (this can be done on the 3880 by changing the color density slider). When Jeff Schewe and Michael R were requesting input for the new Camera to Print video, this is one of the issues I requested that they address. We will see if they did so. Of course all of this takes a fair amount of work to determine what is optimal for you.
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Maybe there should be. For example, Epson only sells PK papers with gobs of OBA's and their media presets are tuned to the respective whitepoints. Unless you really work at it, you won't achieve B&W output without toning crossovers. It shouldn't be this hard.
Gromit, is there a way to solve toning crossovers on Epson pro printer with Epson ABW and third party non OBA papers? With colorbase maybe?
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Gromit, is there a way to solve toning crossovers on Epson pro printer with Epson ABW and third party non OBA papers? With colorbase maybe?
ABW knows the whitepoint coordinates of each media type selected and attempts a linear progression from paper white to neutral black. If your paper has a different whitepoint, the progression will be wrong. You need to adjust with the Horizontal and Vertical controls (the Color Toning presets are likely to be too coarse). Horizontal/Vertical are L*a*b* coordinates so if you need more yellow output, increase the Vertical setting. With time you'll be able to figure out how much of the respective adjustments you need. These are still fairly blunt tools but you should be able to achieve the results you're after. If not, start again with a different media type. The eye is more sensitive to toning shifts in the top of the range (say L* 40 and above) so don't worry if the shadows aren't perfect. The QTR-Linearize-Data plots are ideal for all this.
ColorBase isn't relevant here.
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ABW knows the whitepoint coordinates of each media type selected and attempts a linear progression from paper white to neutral black. If your paper has a different whitepoint, the progression will be wrong. You need to adjust with the Horizontal and Vertical controls (the Color Toning presets are likely to be too coarse). Horizontal/Vertical are L*a*b* coordinates so if you need more yellow output, increase the Vertical setting. With time you'll be able to figure out how much of the respective adjustments you need. These are still fairly blunt tools but you should be able to achieve the results you're after. If not, start again with a different media type. The eye is more sensitive to tonal shifts in the top of the range (say L* 40 and above) so don't worry if the shadows aren't perfect. The QTR-Linearize-Data plots are ideal for all this.
ColorBase isn't relevant here.
Thanks. That's pretty much the way I'm currently doing things. I haven't played around with colorbase yet but was curious if there was more to it there.
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I'm also printing on third party papers along with EEF. (Harman and Canson)....use canned media settings and get stunning results. I really cant understand what the difficulties are with ABW. Eleanor
......"That said, I suspect thousands if not more Epson customers are printing with canned media settings, 3rd party papers and ABW and producing results they are more than pleased with. Customers like Alan.
There are complaints out there in the printer world we hear about on line. The media settings doesn’t seem to take up much volume there. "
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I'm also printing on third party papers along with EEF. (Harman and Canson)....use canned media settings and get stunning results. I really cant understand what the difficulties are with ABW. Eleanor
Compare the results on the same paper (Hot Press Natural) firstly using a colour profile then ABW in the third post in this thread. Look at the tonal smoothness, shadow separation and Dmax.
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With all due respect, I can't make sense of lists of numbers...I look at prints in hand....that's probably my "artist" side...I try not to get real techie but just do what works for me. eleanor
Compare the results on the same paper (Hot Press Natural) firstly using a colour profile then ABW in the third post in this thread. Look at the tonal smoothness, shadow separation and Dmax.
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I'm also printing on third party papers along with EEF. (Harman and Canson)....use canned media settings and get stunning results. I really cant understand what the difficulties are with ABW. Eleanor
That's also what I thought until I printed some circular stepped gradients (found here: Graham Preston (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/black_and_white_test.html)).
In my experience, printing B&W on Epson printer in color mode with canned profile produces good results, but inferior to ABW as far as linearity of color tone goes (not sure I'm using the correct vocabulary here). That's clearly visible to the naked eyes using those circular gradients. ABW isn't perfect either, but much better. And the difference isn't just visible in test patterns but also in real world prints.
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With all due respect, I can't make sense of lists of numbers...I look at prints in hand....that's probably my "artist" side...I try not to get real techie but just do what works for me. eleanor
Fair comment, but with experience the visual and data results will become manifestations of the same thing. You'll be able to confirm suspicions of colour shifts by looking at the plots.
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I can't speak for Windows, but ABW is broken in Photoshop CS5 and/or Mac OS X 10.6 (and presumably Lion).
No, it isn't.
Also, reading through the rest of this topic i would say, "don't feed the troll".
Deanwork and Gromit should start their own forum ;)
Regrads Lion, it's the same print sub system as 10.5/6 so i'm hoping there will be no issues other than the adobe/apple problem.
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Also, reading through the rest of this topic i would say, "don't feed the troll".
Deanwork and Gromit should start their own forum ;)
Three things come to mind.
First . . . I don't know Gromit, but he simply seems to be passionate about what he believes. John (Deanwork) is a world class printer, and he produces black and white prints at a level of quality few are able to achieve.
Second. . . The scope of this forum is not limited to colour work, nor is it limited to manufacturer provided black and white solutions. While many here are satisfied with out of the box solutions, some desire to go further and deeper. Just as there is nothing wrong with those who have chosen the manufacturer's solution, there is nothing wrong with those who wish to go beyond this.
Third. . . The OP said "I'm searching for advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890, links - books, everything is welcome.". We've done a poor job in responding to that.
Epson's ABW has made good quality b/w printing readily available to everyone. RIP's are no longer required to get nice prints. However, there are some compromises inherent to ABW, and some limitations. For example, the output may, or may not, be truly linear. The utility already mentioned, Create-ICC which comes as part of QTR (www.quadtonerip.com), is a relatively easy and inexpensive way to address this. You will need a device to measure density (e.g. a spectro) to use it.
ABW uses colour inks in addition to black (K), to create a neutral print. The can lead to metamerism, and also impact print light-fastness. Using QTR to directly control K, and to purposefully choose which colours to add and by how much, can improve on this. QTR gives you full control over ink limits, ink partitioning and linearization. This kind of control also means you have the abilty to print split tones, which is something ABW cannot do. QTR supports the 9880.
There is a Yahoo forum for QTR. . .
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/
There is also a Yahoo forum dedicated to black and white inkjet printing. QTR, ABW and various other topics, including custom ink mixing, are discussed. . . .
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
Whether you're interested in moving to a monochrome ink set, or not, there is a lot of material at Jon Cone's site, and on his Piezography Blog, that will still be helpful in general terms. . .
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/it.I/id.119/.f?sc=15&category=27707#
http://www.piezography.com/PiezoPress/category/blog/page/4/
In the blog above, I would start on the oldest page (#4) and work forward.
As a final comment I will say that if you're open to working with dedicated monochrome inks you will be rewarded with smoother gradations, longer tonal ranges, virtually no metamerism and better detail. There is an investment required, which you may or may feel to be worthwhile.
I truly hope you find some of the above helpful.
Terry.
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Thank you Terry for a great post. There is indeed a universe of wonderful things going on in the world of ink and B&W, just as there has always been a unique, committed, and masterful community involved in B&W before digital.
Tyler
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ABW uses colour inks in addition to black (K), to create a neutral print. The can lead to metamerism, and also impact print light-fastness. Using QTR to directly control K, and to purposefully choose which colours to add and by how much, can improve on this.
Except that in some cases monochrome ink sets rely on additions of color pigments blended directly into the ink formulation in order to achieve visually neutral grays or near gray tones. In this situation with respect to lightfastness (not other properties) it seems to matter only from an academic rather than practical perspective whether the blending of additional colorants to achieve the desired final tint takes place in the ink formulation or later as the result of extra color droplets being jetted by the printer nozzles. True carbon black is typically more brown in tone than neutral when ground to the fineness needed for inkjet nozzles. To neutralize this naturally brownish tint, other color pigments like cyan and magenta can therefore be inserted into the total ink formula, or added by the printer driver during printing. Hence, third party "full monochrome" ink sets may seem in theory to be more lightfast but often in practice are less stable than their OEM B&W printing mode counterparts because the chosen magenta pigments, for example, are less stable than the ones used in the OEM inks. One really needs to test the printer/ink/driver/media/coating combination to know for sure. In my tests, numerous monochrome inkjet prints show early stages of light fading that is on a par with "traditional" color photos. They settle down and perform better than color prints over larger light exposure doses, but nonetheless should be treated as only moderately lightfast by discriminating collectors who might be concerned with delicate hue and tonal retention in the print over time.
regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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ABW uses colour inks in addition to black (K), to create a neutral print. The can lead to metamerism...
Can leas to metamerism? Two (2) samples with different spectra compared to each other with a given set of viewing conditions, producing a match?
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Hence, third party "full monochrome" ink sets may seem in theory to be more lightfast but often in practice are less stable than their OEM B&W printing mode counterparts because the chosen magenta pigments, for example, are less stable than the ones used in the OEM inks.
Thanks for bringing this up Mark. I think the decision in this case would be based on aesthetics and/or relative ease of use.
My comments were made with HP's PK in mind, and using it as a neutral base for creating a dilute monochrome set. HP's PK seems quite "lightfast" and it remains relatively neutral as it fades.
Terry.
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Can leas to metamerism? Two (2) samples with different spectra compared to each other with a given set of viewing conditions, producing a match?
From the ColorWiki. . .
Metamerism - "The phenomenon by which two materials that match under one circumstance appear different to different viewers or under different lighting. Metameric mismatch occurs when tristimulus values are the same but spectral characteristics are not."
Ernst Dinkla has been on a crusade to see the term "colour constancy" used, rather than "metamerism". I had considered putting both in but unfortunately, colour constancy was left out when I hit "Post".
Terry.
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There is indeed a universe of wonderful things going on in the world of ink and B&W, just as there has always been a unique, committed, and masterful community involved in B&W before digital.
Things have simply moved from chemical mixing to ink mixing. ;)
Terry.
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From the ColorWiki. . .
Metamerism - "The phenomenon by which two materials that match under one circumstance appear different to different viewers or under different lighting.
Correct (and what I wrote). But in the context of the print, what two materials were you referring to?
Taking a print and having it appear differently when moved under a different illuminants wouldn’t be metamerism and think the term Ernst is referring to in this example is color inconsistency. Metameric failure would be accepted by some as well.
Without metamerism, we’d be in bad shape (how would say a display and a print, or a contract proof and press output match?)
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Taking a print and having it appear differently when moved under a different illuminants wouldn’t be metamerism and think the term Ernst is referring to in this example is color inconsistency. Metameric failure would be accepted by some as well.
I was commenting on colour inconsistency / metameric failure.
Terry.
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Taking a print and having it appear differently when moved under a different illuminants wouldn’t be metamerism and think the term Ernst is referring to in this example is color inconsistency. Metameric failure would be accepted by some as well.
Some color gurus on another list became quite aggressive in their messages when "metamerism" was used loosely.. So I started to describe it as "color inconstancy to different light sources". Which is the formulation that covers the practice of taking just one sample/print from one light to the other by one observer. As it will not be understood by the common print maker I add "metamerism" next to it on other lists. Would an abbreviation like CI*^ be short enough for the lazy ones and suggest "authority" on the subject ? I think the term "metamerism" has those qualities so will be hard to get rid off.
With a B&W print (= varying value/tone, same hue, same chroma/saturation) I think that there is a condition that comes close to the "two (or more) samples matching to one light source for one observer", or "two (or more) samples not matching to one light source for one observer", which is roughly what metameric match, metameric failure to light, stand for. That point of view was supported by some (actually off line, with references to research done) in the discussion that became so aggressive. The fact that a color deviation is much easier to see in B&W prints than the same deviation is in color prints is a sign that our eyes have a reference in B&W prints that they do not have in color prints. Which is getting close to the metameric conditions. Print areas that only differ on value/tone are a good reference. An overall color shift will not be so easily discriminated but one tone range deviating in hue from the rest will be seen immediately. The same can be seen in pictures where only the hue varies or where only the saturation varies. Odd ones, I know but a good friend made some 40 years ago (Munsell book next to the easel) so I was familiar with them before they became available with a few steps in Photoshop.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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So I started to describe it as "color inconstancy to different light sources".
I have no problems with the term (I like it). I suspect the sentence here was just missing the ‘in’ in front of the word consistency:
Ernst Dinkla has been on a crusade to see the term "colour constancy"
The only reason I brought this up (and questioned the use of metamerism) was so we can proceed using these proper terms or at least avoid using the term metamerism incorrectly (something I am guilty of doing in the wee past).