Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => User Critiques => Topic started by: martin-images on July 13, 2011, 12:59:48 pm
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Taken with my Leica compact, comments appreciated
Martin
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Very nice, Martin. The mid-tones appear to be right on the money. An interesting face.
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Thanks
Was not sure about the crop, the old guy could not raise his head straight, bless him, at least he got a warm cup of tea from me
Martin
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Very nice, I like it very much. I would probably have cropped it larger, just a matter or tastes.
It's a pity you can barely see his eyes, by the way; what was the stylist thinking!?
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Very nice, I like it very much. I would probably have cropped it larger, just a matter or tastes.
It's a pity you can barely see his eyes, by the way; what was the stylist thinking!?
LOL I dont think this man would have a stylist, it was a grab shot
Thank you
Martin
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I like the layout of the shot and I like the way you have worked the image in B&W, nice work - but, I don't know if I am comfortable with the subject matter, or the idea of us photographers pushing expensive cameras into the faces of the poor or unfortunate in society. He is obviously struggling with his lot in life and to me image subjects like this, are a little unsettling. But I also realise that some of what we are meant to think are the better street photographs from days gone by, are of similar subjects such as street urchins, or the destitute laid in the gutter or even the blind beggar women with an appropriate sign saying BLIND hanging around her neck etc.
So yes it is good, but not an image I would want to take, although I also realise that once again I am probably out of step with the rest of the planet on this.
Photobloke
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Very nice, the tonality is lovely. I might have cropped a bit off the top so there's not so much hat in the image.
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I like the layout of the shot and I like the way you have worked the image in B&W, nice work - but, I don't know if I am comfortable with the subject matter, or the idea of us photographers pushing expensive cameras into the faces of the poor or unfortunate in society. He is obviously struggling with his lot in life and to me image subjects like this, are a little unsettling. But I also realise that some of what we are meant to think are the better street photographs from days gone by, are of similar subjects such as street urchins, or the destitute laid in the gutter or even the blind beggar women with an appropriate sign saying BLIND hanging around her neck etc.
So yes it is good, but not an image I would want to take, although I also realise that once again I am probably out of step with the rest of the planet on this.Photobloke
Hate to tell you, your solitude ain't!
Rob C
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I like the layout of the shot and I like the way you have worked the image in B&W, nice work - but, I don't know if I am comfortable with the subject matter, or the idea of us photographers pushing expensive cameras into the faces of the poor or unfortunate in society. He is obviously struggling with his lot in life and to me image subjects like this, are a little unsettling. But I also realise that some of what we are meant to think are the better street photographs from days gone by, are of similar subjects such as street urchins, or the destitute laid in the gutter or even the blind beggar women with an appropriate sign saying BLIND hanging around her neck etc.
So yes it is good, but not an image I would want to take, although I also realise that once again I am probably out of step with the rest of the planet on this.
Photobloke
Image like this show us, the fortunate ones, another side of life and keeps our heads from under the sand, I talked to this person, bought him a cup of tea and made him quite happy for 1/2 hour, you are entitled to your opinion, I think you are a little out of step :)
Thank you
Martin
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I like the hair over the eyes. There are too many of these kind of shots with perfect eye contact. The hair-in-eyes add a sense of tension. It also serves as a protective "shield" against the world seeing his situation or at least him seeing the more normal world himself.
Whenever I see a photo that engages me at this level I rejoice. When I first looked at it him wanted to reach out and brush those hairs out of the way to see him more clearly. I'm glad you didn't Photoshop them out.
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Martin, I'm with you all the way. On another thread I described the guy, a bit younger than this one but in the same situation, who asked me to take his picture and then, when I gave him a copy a couple weeks later, cried and said, "That's the first time anybody's taken my picture in twenty years."
Showing the condition of unfortunates like this to the world is worthwhile. It used to be that these poor souls could be committed to an institution where they received food, comfort, and necessary medication. Then our government nannies decided that was wrong. Now outcasts like this wander the streets, sleep in doorways, have one meal a day in a soup kitchen if they're lucky, and panhandle. Because I made pictures of them and gave them copies I came to know several of them well enough to understand that most of them are mentally ill, and need to be taken in instead of cast out.
Here's an example. For years, summer and winter, this poor woman sat all day long somewhere on the streets of Colorado Springs just like this with her pack. Local merchants helped to feed her. What she needed was to be in a place where she was out of the elements and able to have regular meals. I can show you even worse examples, but this one always haunts me.
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Image like this show us, the fortunate ones, another side of life and keeps our heads from under the sand, I talked to this person, bought him a cup of tea and made him quite happy for 1/2 hour, you are entitled to your opinion, I think you are a little out of step :)
Thank you
Martin
Martin, don't patronise. We are all just too bloody aware of the realities of life out there. If you enjoy what you do, great, but don't seek to wash it in the name of some 'greater good' because it don't clean. It's you bag, cool. I and some others feel it's intrusive, cruel and, at best, a sad sport. That cup of tea buys you no forgiveness; worse, it puts a price on what you consider fair game. As I've written before in this context, try to catch the movie Hard Target.
Rob C
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Martin, don't patronise. We are all just too bloody aware of the realities of life out there. If you enjoy what you do, great, but don't seek to wash it in the name of some 'greater good' because it don't clean. It's you bag, cool. I and some others feel it's intrusive, cruel and, at best, a sad sport. That cup of tea buys you no forgiveness; worse, it puts a price on what you consider fair game. As I've written before in this context, try to catch the movie Hard Target.
Rob C
Did not realize you policed the forum and lectured here, get your head out of the sand and DO not lecture me ever again
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... It used to be that these poor souls could be committed to an institution where they received food, comfort, and necessary medication. Then our government nannies decided that was wrong. Now outcasts like this wander the streets, sleep in doorways,...
Hmmm... a couple of questions: when "it used to be", who committed those poor souls to institutions? Which "government nannies" decided exactly what?
As far as I know, those poor souls wander the streets these days because of, among other things, hospitals, in pursuit of more profitable patients, prematurely release them straight into the streets. Hospitals, in pursuit of profit, not the government.
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... and DO not lecture me ever again
Or... what?
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I studied psychology at university in the early 70s and there was a strong push for community care of psychiatric patients. The push was brilliantly demonstrated in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
In Australia it was further kicked along by the deaths of 24 patients receiving Deep Sleep Therapy at Chelmsford Private Hospital. The introduction of modern antipsychotic drugs has helped this move to the community even more. Australian governments have taken it up because it is popular and it saves money.
Unfortunately one of the side effects of this move is that there are more people with psychiatric problems on the street and in prison.
This is a complex medical problem where neither the hospital or community system is perfect. Luckily in Australia there has been a injection of funds into mental health problems just recently.
Cheers,
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I like the layout of the shot and I like the way you have worked the image in B&W, nice work - but, I don't know if I am comfortable with the subject matter, or the idea of us photographers pushing expensive cameras into the faces of the poor or unfortunate in society. He is obviously struggling with his lot in life and to me image subjects like this, are a little unsettling. But I also realise that some of what we are meant to think are the better street photographs from days gone by, are of similar subjects such as street urchins, or the destitute laid in the gutter or even the blind beggar women with an appropriate sign saying BLIND hanging around her neck etc.
So yes it is good, but not an image I would want to take, although I also realise that once again I am probably out of step with the rest of the planet on this.
Photobloke
Photobloke,
You are not out of step. The assumption highlighted above isn't uniformly true. Sure, there are the street urchin shots and images of poor, struggling people. But what those shots normally have and this one doesn't is visual context and setting.
What we have here is simply a head shot of a person we assume, led by the caption and story of the photographer, is poor and destitute. I really wouldn't call it street.
As to the shot itself, if I had his confidence after the conversation and cup of tea, I would have worked the scene, gotten some torso shots, feet and hands tell great stories, full body. I assume he was sitting, so working the chair or stoop into the image might have added as well. Basically anything that builds the story of his condition in a respectful way. Something that allows the viewer to create their own narrative without the aid of titles or explanation.
There was another photographer that was relatively recently (past couple of years) recognised for his body of work taking street portraits of all sorts of people in every walk of life. If I remember correctly, he was extremely reticent to have his work shown despite many, many attempts by friends and supporters to curate an exhibition. I'll see if I can find a link or two.
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Hmmm... a couple of questions: when "it used to be", who committed those poor souls to institutions? Which "government nannies" decided exactly what?
Actually the decisions were made by judges -- the kind of nannies that real nannies objected to then but now want to decide just about everything.
As far as I know, those poor souls wander the streets these days because of, among other things, hospitals, in pursuit of more profitable patients, prematurely release them straight into the streets. Hospitals, in pursuit of profit, not the government.
Considering what our government has done to the medical profession, if the hospitals don't pursue some kind of profit we soon won't have any hospitals.
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Photobloke,
You are not out of step. The assumption highlighted above isn't uniformly true. Sure, there are the street urchin shots and images of poor, struggling people. But what those shots normally have and this one doesn't is visual context and setting.
What we have here is simply a head shot of a person we assume, led by the caption and story of the photographer, is poor and destitute. I really wouldn't call it street.
As to the shot itself, if I had his confidence after the conversation and cup of tea, I would have worked the scene, gotten some torso shots, feet and hands tell great stories, full body. I assume he was sitting, so working the chair or stoop into the image might have added as well. Basically anything that builds the story of his condition in a respectful way. Something that allows the viewer to create their own narrative without the aid of titles or explanation.
There was another photographer that was relatively recently (past couple of years) recognised for his body of work taking street portraits of all sorts of people in every walk of life. If I remember correctly, he was extremely reticent to have his work shown despite many, many attempts by friends and supporters to curate an exhibition. I'll see if I can find a link or two.
Hear, hear, Jennifer. You said it very well.
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I think that the image is a portrait taken with a show of respect to the subject. It does a good job of conveying the subjects situation to me very clearly. I would not have spent a lot of time taking multiple shots from different angles....of his hands and chair etc because I would feel like I was taking advantage of him. But, that is simply my feeling and opinion. In no way do I cast this opinion and feelings onto others and demand that they agree. The only way I believe to be truly fair to everyone is for us all to put everything into a pot and to divide it all equally. And everything includes mental capacity, feelings, money, food, health, material things, love, physical capacity etc. And, since that can not be accomplished, I have to accept that someone is always in a different situation than me. So, I try to show everyone the same respect regardless of their social, mental, or physical situation...including the people that post on photography forums.
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As a psychologist & disability studies academic, working in a department of mental health, in a UK university, I have a particular view on this sort of photography, and maybe a slightly different 'take' on it than some.
Here in the UK, we don't worry overly about profit motive in healthcare, though our current chimera/coalition government seem set on privatising the hell out of the NHS. We've seen the closure of long-stay institutions & implementation of care in the community, and the variable quality of it. Our streets & prisons are replete with individuals struggling with mental ill-health, and many of those on the streets are ex-servicemen. The latter issue is ironic, not least given the alleged concern politicians have for our ex-military & the current outpouring of (justified) outrage at the actions of some journalists in hacking the phones of families of soldiers & marines killed in Iraq & Afghanistan. Frankly, hacking phones is small beer compared to the lack of care & support for men mentally scarred by experiences in war zones. Add in the numbers homeless & on the streets for other reasons, begging, busking or selling the Big Issue, many of whom have mental health issues too, and it is a problem that should cause far more pause for thought than it seems to do.
Personally, I have no problem with photographs of people, and we should remember that homeless & mentally ill people are still people first & foremost, and so photographing them shouldn't be off the agenda. But at the same time, issues of consent & the like, impact on the ethic that underpins practice, including photographic practice. I think it worth asking ourselves question of the kind, "Why am I photographing this person?" & thinking critically about it. What purpose does it serve? Personal interest? 'Hey! Look at this wonderful portrait I took of some poor down-and-out' hardly constitutes an ethical engagement with the subject. But there might well be considerable value in such photographs, if they are used in some campaigning way to raise public & other awareness.
Fair exchange is no robbery, but I worked with a woman who was selling her body for cigarrettes whilst sleeping in the local night shelter; sex for a half-smoked Silk Cut is abuse. But what about payment for taking a photograph? Is a cup of tea enough? Well, most people would probably let you take their photo for nothing, if you asked nicely, or even if you didn't. Sitting & chatting with someone, buying them a drink, giving them a copy of the photo - assuaging own feelings of having intruded, or sharing some common humanity & displaying a caring attitude? Some might say that we should do the latter anyway, without expecting anything in return. But then again, interdependence is no bad thing, and some people on the streets might like the thought that they've somehow earned something, or given something. Social transactions take many forms, but many people on the streets find themselves constant recipients of handouts & charity, and trading something might well give a vital feeling of self-respect.
These aren't easy black & white issues, even if the photos usually are.
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I talked to this person, bought him a cup of tea and made him quite happy for 1/2 hour, you are entitled to your opinion, I think you are a little out of step :)
Hi Martin,
I am not criticising you, I am simply saying that this type of image is something that I personally feel uncomfortable with, neither am I trying to analyse how you apply your moral compass to such issues, or give you advice. All I was saying is that I would not have taken this shot based on what I believe to be, his inability to knowingly consent to his plight being posted on-line, for all the world to see and entertained by.
Photobloke
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Did not realize you policed the forum and lectured here, get your head out of the sand and DO not lecture me ever again
Nothing to do with police-work; everything to do with objecting to your patronising tone. We, mainly, think for ourselves, here, and see quite enough of the world not to need guides, thank you very, very much.
Rob C
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Our streets & prisons are replete with individuals struggling with mental ill-health, and many of those on the streets are ex-servicemen. The latter issue is ironic, not least given the alleged concern politicians have for our ex-military & the current outpouring of (justified) outrage at the actions of some journalists in hacking the phones of families of soldiers & marines killed in Iraq & Afghanistan.
For which, at present at any rate, there is not a scintilla of evidence.
Jeremy
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I think it worth asking ourselves question of the kind, "Why am I photographing this person?" & thinking critically about it. What purpose does it serve? Personal interest? 'Hey! Look at this wonderful portrait I took of some poor down-and-out' hardly constitutes an ethical engagement with the subject. But there might well be considerable value in such photographs, if they are used in some campaigning way to raise public & other awareness.
Bill, Thanks. I left out a lot of your post, and a lot of what I left out deals with questions we certainly need to confront.
But let me ask whether or not you learned anything from the face Martin posted. I learned something from it. I always learn something from that kind of face -- something that's very important but that I can't put into words. And, though I hate to use a word as amorphous as "art," I'm not reluctant to say that what I'm willing to call "art" gives the viewer or reader or listener an experience -- an understanding -- of something that can't be put into words. In a novel or in poetry of course there are words, but the transcendental experience I'm talking about is, as Archibald MacLeish pointed out, delivered not directly through the text, but through the interstices between images. I think that in the dim light of human experience you learn the most important things not by direct vision but by what you glimpse out of the corner of your eye -- just beyond your grasp. I think a photograph of a face like this can give you exactly that kind of glimpse.
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Thing is, Russ, we've had that same glance a zillion times but that fact doesn't hinder each and every guy with that bent to do it all over again.
Altruism and finer motives are something I don't see in the world of street, what I do see is the hunter. Some do it in your face, some by stealth and yet others buy their conscience clean - just like the old Borgias, then.
But that's folks - they are perfectly free to do it, it seems, but we certainly don't all have to think it an honourable quest; at best, an odd quirk in otherwise fine minds? Put it this way: were I to be in the street and saw some 'hunter' closing in on some poor old sod with his brown paper bag (probably impossible to find those nowadays), rather than move out of his line of shot sight I think I'd be tempted to linger and block his view.
On the other hand, that shot of the Indian street scene with the rat making its escape has another story perhaps more telling: the plate asking for money for stills and even more for movie shooting. It would be a fine ploy to stick such a sign above a concrete bench and wheel the poor and disenfranchised to the spot and sit them down, putting up beside it one of those disused Kodak recommended viewing signs, you know, those Take Your Snap From Here things that used to grace Epcot and probably countless other cultural spots.
No more Hard Target, just Fair Shot.
Rob C
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LOL ... too funny.
Anything less than a constant 100% approval and praise will NOT be tolerated. LOL
Man, that's why this place becomes an addiction: it's just like the street corner in that if you hang around long enough you'll have seen everybody and everything pass by. In the end, nothing surpries anymore but it does give you the odd grin, which is better than a headache.
;-)
Rob C
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Well my picture really did start a discussion, hmm, lets see if I dare post another image ;)
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Well my picture really did start a discussion, hmm, lets see if I dare post another image ;)
I suggest finding the richest (money hoarding) , fattest (compulsive eater) person in Leeds and take their portrait and see if you get the same level of reaction.