Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: adam z on June 19, 2011, 11:16:39 am
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I have decided that I want to move from my Canon gear to digital medium format. Here are my reasons for wanting to make the change:
Firstly because I like the look that medium format produces for portraiture (my primary work) due to the larger sensor size.
I also like the smoother tonal transitions and better colour that most backs have
I want to have leaf shutters so I can sync flash outdoors to balance with relatively bright light, I do a lot of environmental portraiture
Larger Dynamic range, and (dependant on back) higher resolution for landscape work (I would like to print a minimum of 16x20 with fine detail in a shot, like a complex landscape etc)
Lastly, the camera itself differentiates me from the millions of DSLR users that my clients see all the time.
I like to work slowly and deliberately, so I do not care if the system is not capable of run and gun type shooting. I also tend to shoot at base ISO for almost all of my work (I have the Canon gear if I need to shoot in low light anyway).
I have no issues with buying second hand.
Hopefully that gives a feel of what my needs are, so what to buy? I do not want to spend more than $15,000 for a body and back and would prefer spending about $10,000. Obviously the cost of lenses is not factored in at this point.
Would I be correct in assuming that my only options for bodies (considering my need for leaf shutter lenses) are, Phase/Mamiya DF or Hasselblad H in auto focus? I assume Mamiya RZ and Hasselblad V are worth considering as manual focus options, but I have my concerns about focusing accuracy with digital backs (probably only a concern for portraits, not the landscape work). I also realize the RZ is lacking in the wide angle department when used with digital.
My initial thought is for a Phase DF body with 55 and 110 LS lenses, plus a wider non LS lens just for landscapes, and a 150 LS when it is available. Not sure which back to get. Phase, Leaf, exact model - obviously I would like the best resolution within my price range.
With the H Hasselblads, which models take 3rd party backs? What are the disadvantages of the older H series apart from lack of TruFocus compared with the H4D. I am aware that some can take film backs which does not interest me, is there anything else to be aware of?
I would love to get a IQ series back once the initial setup pays for itself (unless I get a Hasselblad H series I guess), so am wondering if these are available for Hasselblad V mount or older H series 'blads. Any experience with using Hasselblad V systems or Mamiya RZ (I would go with the Pro II D most likely for ease of use with digital) would be much appreciated.
Are there any other systems I could consider which I have missed?
Thanks in advance.
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Oh, any thoughts on these as well 6000/ Hy6/ AFi ?? Are they still worth considering, and if so what are the bodies worth used, and is back compatibility good?
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My advice would be to try both the Mamiya/phase and Hasselblad system to see which one you prefer (including software), it's a very personal choice. Then I would buy the highest megapixel count full frame back you can afford, like the P25/P45/P65, personally I think sensor size is more important than megapixels, especially if you plan on using wide lenses.
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For portrait work it is a no-brainer. The truefocus capability of the Hasselblad combined with the large range of leaf shutter lenses makes this an ideal camera on location or in the studio. The ergonomics and integration of the H4D camera are far superior to that of the Phase One system. I guess the P1 backs have the edge in quality terms but we are talking a council of perfection here. The Hasselblad lenses are superb particularly the 100mm for your work. I would suggest that the H4D-40 would be a great choice and very good value for money.
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Well you opened up a can of worms here :)
The leaf shutter options worth considering are:
- Phase/Mamiya body with Schneider LS lenses
- Hasselblad H series
- Hy6 (and possibly Rollei 6008AF)
The Phase/Mamiya option started off as a focal plane shutter system, with cheap used cameras and lenses being easy to find. This attracted a lot of the early adopters. However, if you want to use leaf shutters you will need to buy the latest Phamiya body and new LS lenses too. The choice of lenses is limited at this stage, and you will have to buy all new. You can use backs from various manufacturers on this camera. There are no viewfinder options, as far as I know.
The Hasselblad H system is quite mature now, with plenty of bodies and lenses available on the used market. It's the only platform with good global rental support, from what I've seen. The camera doesn't excite me personally but I imagine that a used H would be within your budget and deliver what you need, with quite a few choices of sensor available.
The Hy6 (a.k.a. AFi) camera is still being made, but only one current model back (Leaf Aptus II 12) is available for the platform, which is a sad state of affairs. You can also find the body and lenses on the used market, and the lens lineup is great (best in my opinion). If you go for a used camera and back, then there are still some choices but be warned that this platform might not have a lot of options in the future. The Rollei 6008AF uses the same lenses and is effectively the predecessor of the Hy6. However the back mount is different so you really need to find a Sinar eMotion back to go with it, and an adapter. This is the system I use, and gives great bang for the buck (probably the cheapest of all these options) but there is zero rental market support, very limited dealer support, a slightly annoying flash sync cable must be used to connect camera and back. Some pros of this platform are: full AE capability with all finders (might be the only camera that allows this), and being able to rotate just the back to switch between portrait and landscape modes (the only platform on this list that does this too).
At the end of the day, you need to hold these systems in your hands and decide which one feels right, which lenses you need, etc. Try them all if you can!
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The ergonomics .... of the H4D camera are far superior to that of the Phase One system.
sorry, that is not true. try handholding a H whatever with the big zoom in portrait orientation for a few hours and you'll need an osteopath. It is not only the lack of vertical grip, also the buttons don't match.
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Oh, any thoughts on these as well 6000/ Hy6/ AFi ?? Are they still worth considering, and if so what are the bodies worth used, and is back compatibility good?
Those of us who use this system love it, and are willing to deal with its very limited service network and very small, old world distribution system.
Others call it dead, no more, and irrelevant.
Each their own. Either the 6000 or the AFI (common mostly through the lenses) have limited options, but what there is is very good tho. Used AFI gear is practically non-existent or priced high. The 6000 series has a lot of availability, but very limited digital back options - the Sinar and the Hassy with an I mount. If you are considering this, you will get great optics, and lots of folks who will tell you that there are other more commercially viable ways to go. Some of us really like shooting with this camera tho and are quite happy, even if out of the norm for big business models.
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sorry, that is not true. try handholding a H whatever with the big zoom in portrait orientation for a few hours and you'll need an osteopath. It is not only the lack of vertical grip, also the buttons don't match.
Phiii.... :-)
Try to fit into your perfect body DF, "lens" weighing 1650g. I'm sorry but ergonomic body DF is far behind the Hasselblad body. Verticalgrip you think is perfect? This means that you probably never have used. To be clear, since Hasselblad uses a native of Kodak's marketing-I do not like this company. But you should be honest, the camera is ergonomically perfect. Maybe outside the model H4D200;-)
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I'll give you one more piece of advice. Don't listen to fanboys touting their preferred system as the best, one man's perfect is another man's aweful. It's a lot of money you are spending, so do yourself the favor and try them out to see what's perfect for you. In the end they are all competent devices, if you have the skill to use their potential, so it really comes down to your own personal preference and needs.
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I'll give you one more piece of advice. Don't listen to fanboys touting their preferred system
Why do these "equipment" topics always invite this kind of insulting response? Whilst not disagreeing with your suggestion that he try various systems out ADMZ asked, quite reasonably, for opinions on equipment choices and we are all quite politely (well most of us) simply trying to help. If I was intending to spend the thick end of $20,000 even on a used I would appreciate all the advice and feedback I could get. >:(
FYI I do not currently use a Hasselblad but I have had several and have no objection to P1 backs - they are fine products as I am sure both Leica and Pentax are as well. However ADMZ did say that he was primarily interested in portrait work and given that piece of information he really ought to try the Hasselblad with Truefocus first.
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I've been a V System user for a long while. Recently I've been considering a change in platform with an upgrade to the IQ backs. I've been using a Hasselblad H to try it out and it's better and not so better in different areas.
Focusing is far easier on the H. Much brighter, cleaner viewing screen. I don't bother with the AF you miss to many shots with it hunting and having to recompose constantly if you're shooting fast action stuff like fashion is relentlessly annoying. The AF is OK otherwise.
I prefer the V Lenses in most ways. The H lenses are far too big. If you shoot vertically with a 120 macro or a 210, and leave it on the camera for any period of time the weight of the lens and its ridiculous centre of gravity makes it work it's way loose and swivel forward on the tripod plate so it's pointing down. I don't feel great about that with a P65 or IQ180 back sat on it. And it's annoying to have to get the assistant to hold the lens any time you step away from the camera. The lenses are plenty sharp but the contrast and tone doesn't sit as well with me. But the older V lenses are starting to show their limits with these high end backs and diffraction in particular becomes a problem if your stopping down. I much prefer the tones of Zeiss lenses.
The H camera locks up frequently meaning you can't sync the flash. It means taking the battery out and plugging it back in. Not so bad but frustrating.
I actually like the grip on the H camera. But it feels more plasticy the older it gets. As it loses it's strength from the pressure put on it by holding the these massive lenses up it starts to creak and move around a bit. Also the paint almost always wears off it with alot of use where the thumb sits. My V System still looks almost as good as when I bought it.
Ergonmics of the H are certainly better than the V but I've used the V for so long so it doesn't bother me. I could definitely live without the taking the back off the V and turning it around to shoot vertical though. The button layout on the H is good. But still I love the simplicity of the V and don't need the other stuff on the H.
The overall feel of the H is plasticy and it feels uninspiring to me.
I handhold alot and the weight of it is fine to me, but the balance really isn't. It's those darn lenses. Just too bulky. The Zeiss equivilants are far smaller. It's easy handholding a V. It just sits in the hand and the whole package is more compact.
I've said it beofre but I just wish they invested in the old system and didn't go down the fuji path.
I have a very old Blad which was my first ever MF camera from college days. It was well and truly second hand then but mint. It still looks as good as it did when I bought it. It still works as well also. I can guarantee that after 10 years of pro use the H Blad will look and feel terrible. And in 60, which is about how old by old Blad is I'm guessing the camera won't even be working. Fine if you're working professionally as you constantly upgrade for tax write off but the point remains these things don't have the permanency and timeless design of the V's.
But then the limit at the moment is that you're stuck with the H2. I have heard from a few people that Hasselblad may open up again. And in my eyes I can see that happening. The rental companies aren't really stocking the Blad Backs over here. Phase has really got the foot hold and I think that's a pretty good indiction of the state of their closed system. I really do hope they open it up again, wether or not it happens is of corse doubtful. Also doubtful is me moving to a Blad back at this stage.
The main positive is the ease of focussing, but I've always been fine with the V, it's just a bit more involved and something you need to concentrate on. The rest, I'm not so sure about. it is an easier camera to use but it has it's draw backs. If the lenses were the same size and tone/contrast of the Zeiss it would be a far easier decision.
To conclde, the system is really good but it's drawbacks leave me still unsure. I'm going to try out the Phamiya and Hy6 systems too.
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thanks for all the replies so far. Temporarily forgetting all of the other options mentioned so far, I was wondering about digital backs for a manual focus Rollei 6008 Professional SRC 1000 which I held in my hands about half an hour ago? Are there any digital options for this camera. The particular one I just played with is for sale as follows:
Body as named above
Waist level and 90 degree prism finder
2 batteries
Film back
3 Zeiss lenses (50mm, 80mm and 150mm)
Apparently they are the last and best of the manual focus Zeiss for Rollei.
Very nice, just want to know if it is an option/which backs might work on it, and if it would be difficult
Thanks again
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You can fit some sinar digital backs and some hasselblad/imacon backs to the 6008pro. I know you can use the ixpress 96, 132c, 384c, and 528c backs plus the hasselblad CF-22 and CF-39 backs with the right cable from camera to back. Probably Graham or someone else can give you more specifics on the sinar backs.
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Not clear from your initial statement but if your portraits include a fair amount of vertical frames, then you should consider a camera that is suitable for that.
For example on an RZ you can get an adapter (from Mamiya, Leaf or Phase One, maybe some others as well) that lets you rotate the back without removing it
On a V 'Blad you can fit the back (Phase or Leaf) in either vertical or horizontal position and if you go with one of the Aptus-II R models you can turn the sensor without removing the back
The above two can also utilise a waist level finder which gives a unique way of working.
On a Phase One/ Mamiya 645DF you can use the V-Grip which is good if you hand hold the camera a lot
etc etc
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Thanks EricWHiss. That is a good start. Would definitely be interested to know about suitable sinar backs that would fit.
Yaya, yes, I will most likely shoot a lot of vertical frames, so that is something definitely worth considering. I own an old Mamiya RB67 (which I don't use becacuse I cant be bothered buying and paying to process film). I definitely like the rotating back idea. My concern with getting an RZ is the wide angle lenses are fairly limited when using a back. Might look into the aptus II R idea as well.
The V-Grip for the Phase would definitely be a good idea if I end up going with the 645DF. I do hand hold a lot now, but am starting to work on tighter more precise framing, and can see myself working much more from a tripod. I will definitely shoot some of my work hand held though.
I would also like to point out that when I mentioned earlier about my concerns with manual focus that the reason for this concern as I have read numerous times that you can see a perfectly focused image in the finder, but due to the backs positioning being a fraction of an inch off, the actual exposure can be slightly out of focus (hope that makes sense). Should I be concerned with that, or is that not a common occurrence?
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I used to use 6006/8s back in the days of yore, having used 500 series Hasselblads for years before that. Nice camera, with the built in metering modes/drives etc. Similar Zeiss lens line up to the Hasselblads plus the option of Schneider and even faster flash sync. I would have stayed with them if I could have mounted a P1 Lightphase back to it, but in the end did a system change and went back to Hasselblad. That was about 11/12 years ago I guess.
Although the Rollei was a nice camera, I really enjoyed going back to the 500 series. The ones I'd used earlier with not so good with dull screens, finicky hoods and old C lenses etc. But with later ones, they had ironed out all these annoying issues. I really enjoy the simplicity of them along with the relatively compact form factor and light weight. At shows over the years I look at other bodies, think of changing etc. but nothing really appeals, apart from maybe the HY6. The modern Hasselbald does nothing for me. I don't like rotating the camera, much prefer rotating the back (although a rotating sensor like Leaf would be better still). No practical WLF in vertical mode, I don't like the glass, I don't like the software and there's something about the companies attitude that I'm not so keen on either.
Although some people have had problems with focus, due to back spacing, focus screen adjustment etc. I don't have problems or issues with focus using a P25, it's spot on, although I have just put diopters in the WLF and on the prism to help my ageing eyes. I also have the flip down magnifier for the prism, which is great for critical focus. If I need AF for a run and gun type job, I just pick up Nikon or Canon kit. Horses for courses and all that. Even then, if I don't need AF, I often put Leica R glass on the Canon. I guess I just prefer German glass to Japanese, but YMMV.
The RZ is another option with rotating backs, WLF etc, but They have a lot more bulk to them compared to V series Hasselblad. The other advantage of the V series is there is still tons of S/H out there, relatively cheap, you can still get it serviced and will take most backs.
The negatives I can think of off the top of my head are no built in AE (apart from 200 series, but I believe they have become unserviceable), need for a sync cable from back to lens (I've had the occasional cable problem but always have spare and whilst seeming annoying, in practice, is a non issue). Some of the lenses may not be as good with 60mp+ backs, but I don't have one so can't comment from experience. I'm sure there are more, but again, it comes down to how you work, but doubt any of this is a problem if you like to work slowly and deliberately.
That's just my 2c on why I'm happy to stick with and enjoying using an old classic. I have to say I think Victor did, all in all, a very good job! But as already mentioned, you really need to try out different camera systems, backs and software combos to find out what suits you and your work flow best. There are pros and cons to all of them and it gets expensive to change later on. Good luck!
Cheers!
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I am considering adding some Zeiss ZE lenses to my Canon kit, in particular the 35/2, 50 1.4 0r 50/2 MP (struggling to decide - perhaps both!) and the 100/2 MP. In the short term this might keep me happy while I try and make a decision.
Buying new seems expensive, however second hand can be hit or miss in terms of the condition of the gear (eg: leaf shutters that need servicing etc). Sometimes this ends up costing almost as much as buying new when factoring in repair costs and the time it is out of action when it could have been earning its keep shooting a job. No matter, I am not in a hurry and will find something I like at some point.
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I was wondering about digital backs for a manual focus Rollei 6008 Professional SRC 1000 which I held in my hands about half an hour ago?
Yes, you can use a Sinar eMotion 54 or 75 or even an old 22. You will also need the Sinar->Rollei adapter kit.
3 Zeiss lenses (50mm, 80mm and 150mm)
That's a great start.
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Been doing a bit of research into some of the backs mentioned and am just about to send an email to what appears to be the only place that sells sinar in Australia. From what I can see there is only one adapter kit for the 6008 Rollei's, and that is this one:
552.45.043
SB 54M-86H/Rollei 6008 (SB eVolution Adapter Kit)
$ 2,464.00
Not sure which of the backs are compatible with the adapter
Approximately the same as what the camera and lenses will cost me!
By the way, is AU$2600 a reasonable price for the 6008 kit I mentioned above with the 3 zeiss lenses?
I am thinking that buying a used sinar back here may be almost impossible, and would probably have to rely on buying OS from ebay or a forum like LL. Not sure that is a good idea - maybe ok for a hobby, but probably not for business, especially if something goes wrong.
Phase 1 and Hasselblad seem to be best represented here in digital MF.
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552.45.043
SB 54M-86H/Rollei 6008 (SB eVolution Adapter Kit)
$ 2,464.00
Not sure which of the backs are compatible with the adapter
This is for the eVolution series, which you probably don't want to get. Iirc, they must be used tethered and have no LCD screens. What you need is the eMotion series adapter. You might have to broaden your search outside Australia. That price also seems too high.
By the way, is AU$2600 a reasonable price for the 6008 kit I mentioned above with the 3 zeiss lenses?
Assuming good condition, then yes. Especially if the 80 or 150 is a PQS lens.
I am thinking that buying a used sinar back here may be almost impossible, and would probably have to rely on buying OS from ebay or a forum like LL. Not sure that is a good idea - maybe ok for a hobby, but probably not for business, especially if something goes wrong.
Yes, that might be a problem. However, if you are nowhere near any other dealers then it makes very little difference. You can courier a back to Europe for repair in a couple of days. Would be a good idea to have a backup plan, no matter what you end up getting. Where I'm working right now, I know I can get hold of a Canon 5DII or a Hasselblad H4-50 within an hour of something going wrong, which means the shoot probably doesn't have to be cancelled. If the nearest dealer was 3+ hours away, that probably wouldn't work.
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Been doing a bit of research into some of the backs mentioned and am just about to send an email to what appears to be the only place that sells sinar in Australia. From what I can see there is only one adapter kit for the 6008 Rollei's, and that is this one:
552.45.043
SB 54M-86H/Rollei 6008 (SB eVolution Adapter Kit)
$ 2,464.00
Not sure which of the backs are compatible with the adapter
Approximately the same as what the camera and lenses will cost me!
By the way, is AU$2600 a reasonable price for the 6008 kit I mentioned above with the 3 zeiss lenses?
I am thinking that buying a used sinar back here may be almost impossible, and would probably have to rely on buying OS from ebay or a forum like LL. Not sure that is a good idea - maybe ok for a hobby, but probably not for business, especially if something goes wrong.
Phase 1 and Hasselblad seem to be best represented here in digital MF.
The price for the camera and lenses sounds good, especially if they are PQ or PQS versions as Graham has already pointed out. It's possible the lenses are older non PQ versions which makes more sense from the price.
As far as the Sinar adapter goes, that seems about 4 times too high for a new one. I picked up a second hand adapter last year for only a few hundred thinking I'd try to locate one of the Sinar multishot backs.
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This is for the eVolution series, which you probably don't want to get. Iirc, they must be used tethered and have no LCD screens.
Graham,
Do you have any idea of what the direction of Sinar is for the future? When I look on the website of the Bron Imaging Group (the distributor of Sinar in the US I believe) they only list the eVOLUTION 75H and 86H digital backs. The eMOTION digital backs are no longer listed, only the accessories (adapter kits) still seem to be still listed. It looks like the eVOLUTION digital backs is a product line that might no longer be supported in the future?
Thanks, Joris.
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Graham,
Do you have any idea of what the direction of Sinar is for the future? When I look on the website of the Bron Imaging Group (the distributor of Sinar in the US I believe) they only list the eVOLUTION 75H and 86H digital backs. The eMOTION digital backs are no longer listed, only the accessories (adapter kits) still seem to be still listed. It looks like the eVOLUTION digital backs is a product line that might no longer be supported in the future?
Thanks, Joris.
I'm afraid I have no idea about that.
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FWIW, look to Sinar's home page for any indicators. Generally for these small European-centered companies, the US distributors are not a full indication of their larger plans.
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I recently wrote Sinar Bron to inquire about an eSprit back for the Hy6 and was told by Greg King that they were not sold in the US and furthermore are discontinued in Europe as well. I really liked the idea of a back that would be able to produce an in camera DNG or jpeg even.
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I don't think it is a big deal that the eMotion backs don't produce DNGs in-camera. You just copy/move the images from internal storage to the CF card, stick that into a reader, start Captureshop which downloads them all into your Pictures folder, as DNGs - which are immediately editable in LR3 for example (in fact edit very well in LR3....).
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Dear Adam
You have one wonderful guy in Australia, as much in technical knowledge as concerning readiness to help: contact David Kay, the Sinar distributor for Australia. He shall help you out in any situations and give you the best possible advice.
Contacts here:
Email: dkay@bigpond.net.au
T: +61-(0)2-98731579
F: +61-(0)2-98736043
M: +61-(0)4-19259605
www.capturescanprint.com
All the best
Thierry
I am thinking that buying a used sinar back here may be almost impossible, and would probably have to rely on buying OS from ebay or a forum like LL. Not sure that is a good idea - maybe ok for a hobby, but probably not for business, especially if something goes wrong.
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"...You just copy/move the images from internal storage to the CF card, stick that into a reader."
Is there an advantage to writing files to the internal drive of the SINAR eMotion 75, then transferring the files to a CF card?
Does anyone know what the WRITE speed the Hy6 eMotion 75 can achieve? Asked another way what speed reading should one purchase a CF card that will accept the design write speed, but not waste money purchasing a CF card with speed faster than can be utilized.
Jerry
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Thanks Thierry
I have already been in contact with David Kay, a google search found his buisiness. He was very helpful, and certainly seemed willing to go out of his way to help out as much as possible. Unfortunately he didn't like my chances of finding the appropriate adapter in Australia. I have decided I am going to hold off for a while on digital medium format. My reasoning is that as I am not a wealthy amateur, instead I am someone hoping to make a living from my photography. In reality and after much consideration and research, I have more important things that I should be spending money on which will pay for itself in a more convincing way. Once more money is coming in, I will look into it again. I think a new monitor so I can actually see accurately what I am working on, as well as lighting gear will improve the quality of my work more significantly than a new camera system.
I will continue to monitor what is happening with medium format, both pricing and the improving technology. My goal is to make the change within 2 years, however a more important goal is to run a financially successful business, not to create more debt.
Thanks for everyone else who has tried to help also.
Cheers
Adam
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Is there an advantage to writing files to the internal drive of the SINAR eMotion 75, then transferring the files to a CF card?
No, it's better to use the CF card, purely for the reason that you have higher storage capacities available. You can shoot to either, and then import the files into eXposure. The result will be the same.
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Graham,
Thank you. It has been my practice to write to the CF card directly. Any idea about write speeds?
Jerry
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Graham,
Thank you. It has been my practice to write to the CF card directly. Any idea about write speeds?
Jerry
It's not really an issue with an eMotion back, because the internal memory is used as a huge and fast buffer. You can shoot 100 frames as fast as the back will let you, and the back will write these to the card when it can, so a slow card won't slow down the shooting until you have filled up the entire buffer (6GB in e75?).
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I have decided that I want to move from my Canon gear to digital medium format. Here are my reasons for wanting to make the change:
Firstly because I like the look that medium format produces for portraiture (my primary work) due to the larger sensor size.
I also like the smoother tonal transitions and better colour that most backs have
I want to have leaf shutters so I can sync flash outdoors to balance with relatively bright light, I do a lot of environmental portraiture
Larger Dynamic range, and (dependant on back) higher resolution for landscape work (I would like to print a minimum of 16x20 with fine detail in a shot, like a complex landscape etc)
Lastly, the camera itself differentiates me from the millions of DSLR users that my clients see all the time.
I like to work slowly and deliberately, so I do not care if the system is not capable of run and gun type shooting. I also tend to shoot at base ISO for almost all of my work (I have the Canon gear if I need to shoot in low light anyway).
I have no issues with buying second hand.
Hopefully that gives a feel of what my needs are, so what to buy? I do not want to spend more than $15,000 for a body and back and would prefer spending about $10,000. Obviously the cost of lenses is not factored in at this point.
Would I be correct in assuming that my only options for bodies (considering my need for leaf shutter lenses) are, Phase/Mamiya DF or Hasselblad H in auto focus? I assume Mamiya RZ and Hasselblad V are worth considering as manual focus options, but I have my concerns about focusing accuracy with digital backs (probably only a concern for portraits, not the landscape work). I also realize the RZ is lacking in the wide angle department when used with digital.
My initial thought is for a Phase DF body with 55 and 110 LS lenses, plus a wider non LS lens just for landscapes, and a 150 LS when it is available. Not sure which back to get. Phase, Leaf, exact model - obviously I would like the best resolution within my price range.
With the H Hasselblads, which models take 3rd party backs? What are the disadvantages of the older H series apart from lack of TruFocus compared with the H4D. I am aware that some can take film backs which does not interest me, is there anything else to be aware of?
I would love to get a IQ series back once the initial setup pays for itself (unless I get a Hasselblad H series I guess), so am wondering if these are available for Hasselblad V mount or older H series 'blads. Any experience with using Hasselblad V systems or Mamiya RZ (I would go with the Pro II D most likely for ease of use with digital) would be much appreciated.
Are there any other systems I could consider which I have missed?
Thanks in advance.
I would be looking squarely at a P40+ for roughly 13k used or a P65+ at 23 k used and yes get the LS lenses 55, 80 and 110. Not much is going to touch this setup plus you have a very nice upgrade path on a current system of the IQ backs in the future. I owned the P40+ and shot the P65+ many many times and just bought the IQ 160 and its a tremendous choice. They are all the same sensor and its no question one of the latest and best sensors out there. And yes a very biased opinion C1 is the best there is.
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I would be looking squarely at a P40+ for roughly 13k used or a P65+ at 23 k used and yes get the LS lenses 55, 80 and 110. Not much is going to touch this setup plus you have a very nice upgrade path on a current system of the IQ backs in the future. I owned the P40+ and shot the P65+ many many times and just bought the IQ 160 and its a tremendous choice. They are all the same sensor and its no question one of the latest and best sensors out there. And yes a very biased opinion C1 is the best there is.
Not me. If I were buying a 2nd hand Phase back, I'd go for the P45+, and I'd put it on a different camera than the phase mamiya DF that's for sure. But you can buy a complete Hy6/emotion 75 set up or a AFi-ii 7 kit for the $13k so that makes good sense too.
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Not me. If I were buying a 2nd hand Phase back, I'd go for the P45+, and I'd put it on a different camera than the phase mamiya DF that's for sure. But you can buy a complete Hy6/emotion 75 set up or a AFi-ii 7 kit for the $13k so that makes good sense too.
As nice as the P45+ is it also has some limits . Not good at all past ISO 200, no sensor plus, more moire. Its basically the same price as a used P40+ and older Kodak sensor which is a nice sensor but the Dalsa is a nicer more neutral , more DR and better color tonal map than the Kodak. The P45+ does and is the long exposure king. Otherwise i would yes look at leaf backs before going anywhere else outside the Phase family. But thats me
The DF is a fine body which soon will be replaced so do you want to buy for the future or buy for the past. By far i would not buy ANYTHING from the past but always a eye to the future and its upgrades, its software and its firmware updates and finally a company that is financially in a good position. And I just did and bought a IQ 160
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P45+ has a bigger sensor and a 1.1 crop factor vs 1.3, longer exposure times, larger sensor sites (meaning you can stop down more without noticing diffraction), and I'd be willing to wager has better working DR too or at least the sensor specs show it. Also I'm still a fan of the kodak sensors over Dalsa, but YMMV.
Probably if you had never seen an H body or an Hy6/AFi or any modern DSLR, you'd think the DF is a "Fine" body but IMHO that's an extremely generous viewpoint. Dim viewfinder, no choice of different finders such as WLF or 45 prism, shutter lag, mirror shake are among its worst flaws, and it offers little of the features that the Hy6 does such as focus bracketing, focus trap, rotating sensor, WLF, prisms, etc. The phase mamiya maybe a 'Fine' camera but that's a long way from 'good', 'great', 'superb', or 'advanced'.
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I do not have any experience with the Mamiya camera, but I do have the SINAR Hy6, and I have found it to be excellent. The lenses are great, and the new focusing update is terrific.
Jerry Reed
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I loved my 6008AF and lenses, hard to believe the Hy6 is that much better, but it is! :)
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P45+ has a bigger sensor and a 1.1 crop factor vs 1.3, longer exposure times, larger sensor sites (meaning you can stop down more without noticing diffraction), and I'd be willing to wager has better working DR too or at least the sensor specs show it. Also I'm still a fan of the kodak sensors over Dalsa, but YMMV.
Probably if you had never seen an H body or an Hy6/AFi or any modern DSLR, you'd think the DF is a "Fine" body but IMHO that's an extremely generous viewpoint. Dim viewfinder, no choice of different finders such as WLF or 45 prism, shutter lag, mirror shake are among its worst flaws, and it offers little of the features that the Hy6 does such as focus bracketing, focus trap, rotating sensor, WLF, prisms, etc. The phase mamiya maybe a 'Fine' camera but that's a long way from 'good', 'great', 'superb', or 'advanced'.
Sorry shot the HY6 thought it was a engineers toy not a camera. Eric I have shot everything out there and yes the DF is not what one would call excellent but you are also underestimating it as well. Call it what you will. I have shot 20k images with it and have not thrown it against the wall yet or pissed on it either. But everyone else does that does not own it. I think you need to go shoot a P65+ and compare it against the P45 plus as well and stop wagering or guessing. I own it and its about the best sensor out there or i would not go spend another 23 k to get the 160. But hey to each his own. His money his choice . I made mine with no regrets.
But hey if you want to argue it great, not into it. Have a great day need to get to work
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Soon?
It would seem you know something we don't.
Guy is just referencing the public information already posted by Phase that they are working on a successor to the DF body. Which is sort of like saying Microsoft is working on a successor to the current version of Windows: Duh. Every company is always working on the successor to their main products.
But to the point of future investment, if you objectively analyze the market position of the major players I think there is a strong argument that Team Phase One (Phase/Mamiya/Schneider/Leaf/Profoto*) is in one of the best positions if you're looking for a system likely to be supported/developed/expanded in the future.
I'd also pipe in on the DF body to say that it has advantages/disadvantages just like any other body/platform. As one of several examples the DF with a V-Grip Air has a built-in, out of the box, 1/1600th of a second wireless flash sync (when using one of the LS lenses) with Profoto Air lighting - no transmitter sticking off the top of the camera requiring it's own battery.
The variety of glass easily adaptable to the DF is also hard to beat on any other camera. Everything from fisheye, to funhouse plastic lenses, to microscope lenses, to super telephotos, to shift and tilt-shit lenses, to modern Schneider Leaf Shutter lenses. Also the allowance to use inexpensive last generation bodies like the Phase One AF or Mamiya AFD1/2/3 as a backup (don't get on me about reliability - I keep a backup pair of my contact lenses in my laptop case even though I've never had to change my contacts on-the-go; I want a backup of anything important).
The availability of shutter speeds up to 1/4000th (along with flash sync up to 1/1600) is also very important to those who want to shoot outside in bright daylite with fast lenses. I love the Hassy HC 100/2.2 lens and the Phase 150/2.8D lens for fashion/portrait. But I can use the Phase 150/2.8D wide open outside where the 1/800th limit of the H2 keeps me from using the 100/2.2 outdoor wide open. For some kinds of shooters that couldn't matter less; for some it matters a LOT.
The ability to control shutter speed and aperture in C1 is a big deal for a small niche of shooters who would choose a DF over e.g. a H2 body just for this reason alone.
For the record, I think the focus trap and focus bracketing on the Hy6 AFi are fantastic ideas. I really wish that the DF or H system had those features.
Also the Mamiya RZ Pro IID is 100% compatible with all the P/P+/IQ/Aptus-II backs that are M mounts (the DF body is an M mount body). That system has a full range of (very inexpensive due to market forces but still good quality) leaf shutter lenses with a beautiful look and a removable viewfinder, WLF, rotating back. Someone buying a DF/IQ kit can add an RZ with a few lenses for maybe another 15-20% of their kit price. Just take your back off the DF and stick it on the RZ and keep shooting. Now of course that body (like every body) has advantages/disadvantages (e.g. no autofocus being a big one). But in open-platform and fully-supported systems the possibilities are very wide.
For all the forum chatter about removable viewfinders I have had exactly ZERO rentals of our waist level viewfinder on the H bodies we rent (which we rent frequently in Miami in conjunction with Phase backs). In three years. Zero. I'm not saying it doesn't have a use (it's not my cup of tea, but I absolutely understand there are shooting scenarios where it's very nice); I'm just saying it one of those things I see a dichotomy between online and real-world metrics. I hope the next Phase/Mamiya body has a waist level finder - but honestly mostly because I'm tired of hearing about it :-). [joking]
*I put Profoto on the list because of the Air in the V-Grip Air (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/v-grip-air/) and Profoto Air plug-in for Capture One.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
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Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
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National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
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Soon?
It would seem you know something we don't.
Everybody and there brother knows they are working on one. LOL
Just a matter of time and honestly they know they need one. They need to get away from a film based body and from a marketing POF they want to sell more IQ backs this is there answer and they know that.
From a Phase shooter if there is a week point in the entire system lets be honest this would be first on the list. The backs , software and glass are awesome and every bitch and moan about this system comes squarely at the body. Phase certainly knows this.
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tilt-shit lenses, to modern Schneider Leaf Shutter lenses
Doug you need some sleep bud. LOL
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Guy,
Me argue? Never! :D
I'm just point out facts that you overlooked. I saw you are involved with the Podas workshops which is a Phaseone sponsored program correct? Will you get in trouble for saying their camera is only "Fine"? I've been around the forums for a while and have seen how you spin back and forth on a dime like the way you did with the DMR. If Phase picked up the Hy6 in a more official way, I wouldn't be surprised to read you posting about how great it is. But you are correct - the camera does not make the image. I'm sure the OP can make great images with any of the choices available or platforms discussed.
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Guy,
Me argue? Never! :D
I'm just point out facts that you overlooked. I saw you are involved with the Podas workshops which is a Phaseone sponsored program correct? Will you get in trouble for saying their camera is only "Fine"? I've been around the forums for a while and have seen how you spin back and forth on a dime like the way you did with the DMR. If Phase picked up the Hy6 in a more official way, I wouldn't be surprised to read you posting about how great it is. But you are correct - the camera does not make the image. I'm sure the OP can make great images with any of the choices available or platforms discussed.
I can't get in trouble for anything I say EVER no one owns me lets make that perfectly clear, PODAS was fun but it was a job just like any other job and I absolutely love to teach people almost more than I like to shoot and even better meet and made some great new friends. Seriously I would never buy a HY6 in any shape or form, it just never fit me at all but many like it and if it fits than that is great. The DMR i loved not sure what spin you got from that , if it was 30 mpx I may still be shooting it. But leica in there infinite wisdom gets rid of the whole R line. And yes I am friends with Leica too. You want a list Arca, Alpa, Cambo I'm friends with all of them. After 35 years I should be just like anyone else. Folks this is not us against them it is a partnership that helps US get better products . The more you are involved the better chance you have them listen and correct there products to be better and end of day its US users that benefit from that. I wish folks would actually understand being part of the industry is a really good thing to do instead of hiding in your studio shooting widgets all day. Get involved help others and the industry. I know I'm vocal but trust me it helps all of us as I get involved for better products. But you are correct I will flip on a dime if I see a better product that will work better for me. Done it before and will do it again in a heartbeat. No shame in that. I'm looking for the best I can shoot with that fits my style. I like Phase products and recommend them daily to folks looking to buy which that e-mail comes just about every other hour. But I also recommend many other products too. I simply like to help people one reason I'm partners in a forum its there to help people. Just like LL
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Guy,
Me argue? Never! :D
I'm just point out facts that you overlooked. I saw you are involved with the Podas workshops which is a Phaseone sponsored program correct? Will you get in trouble for saying their camera is only "Fine"? I've been around the forums for a while and have seen how you spin back and forth on a dime like the way you did with the DMR. If Phase picked up the Hy6 in a more official way, I wouldn't be surprised to read you posting about how great it is. But you are correct - the camera does not make the image. I'm sure the OP can make great images with any of the choices available or platforms discussed.
BTW if I overlooked something it was not intentional. I do make it a habit of not talking to much in detail on products I am not that familiar with though as that can be misleading which I try very hard not to do. The P45+ is a great back just not sure i would buy that today over the Dalsa sensor that I have been shooting for 18 months and bought the same darn sensor again only bigger. I must like it to buy it twice. LOL
Or i am just nuts, which i would not discount. :)
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Guy is just referencing the public information already posted by Phase that they are working on a successor to the DF body. Which is sort of like saying Microsoft is working on a successor to the current version of Windows: Duh. Every company is always working on the successor to their main products.
Yeah, and while Microsoft was developing Vista as a successor to XP Apple made Tiger, Leopard and Snow Leopard.
To hammer in the nail some more, Microsoft had excellent technology and made Windows Mobile, while Apple made the iPhone - which would you rather use?
Personally, I think photographing with my Mamiya is just about as much fun as using Windows - it mostly works and can be used, and may sometimes be necessary to use, but I wouldn't call it fun. Macs are often fun.
Edmund
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If Phase can develop a body that fits in the hand like the Pentax 645D and give it a big bright viewfinder, and whatever technical stuff required to get it "good", then it would be about perfect for me. (I haven't shot with a Phase/Mamiya 645 so not 100% sure what my issues would be with it, so won't suggest specifics). In fact, I would be happy enough with the Pentax if it offered new wide, normal and short/medium tele leaf shutter lens with 1/800 sync speed. Unfortunately that is not the case. If it wasn't for the price, I would have considered the Leica S2, but at that price, I prefer the idea of seperate back and body. If the body is as nice to handle as everyone seems to say, why would you want to get rid of it in a few years. It seems a waste to make something of that quality as such a disposable item. The lenses are different as they are obviously a longer term investment - assuming that the S Leicas continue on into the future.
Anyway, like I mentioned in my last post, I will stick with Canon and try and make some money - rather than spending money I don't really have. Hopefully if my business is successful over the next 18-24 months I can invest in some digital medium format gear. Some lighting and essential computer upgrades will be more likely to bring more money in than a new camera.