Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Steve Hendrix on May 02, 2011, 09:36:12 am

Title: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 02, 2011, 09:36:12 am
This morning our first IQ180 arrived.

http://www.captureintegration.com/2011/05/02/phase-one-iq180-delivered/

We're happy. We're taking requests for tests to conduct on this first non-prototype unit. Please contact us with anything specific you'd be interested in seeing.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: ctz on May 02, 2011, 09:43:57 am
"You do not have permission to preview drafts."
(says the link)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 02, 2011, 09:56:18 am
"You do not have permission to preview drafts."
(says the link)


Ah - thanks Ciprian - corrected the link.


Basically, we've all seen the datasheet, we've seen the feature list. What we're interested in at Capture Integration - as always - is confirming the real world performance of these features. That's what we'll be spending our time on over the coming weeks (and months).

I can see many potential opportunities to verify what the feature list claims the IQ180 can do as well as adding context to how well it actually does them.

We certainly have our own ideas on what we think needs review to see how real world is rendered. Looking forward to hearing suggestions from all of you on tests to see how well the IQ180 actually performs.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: cng on May 02, 2011, 10:22:41 am
Personally, I'd like to know:

1. How the sensor copes with applying large movements to wide lenses on a tech camera. Same or worse as a P65+?
2. How well C1 v6 corrects any sensor casts and lens falloff.
3. Dynamic range in practice.
4. Tech camera focusing with the new screen and using any currently enabled firmware features. Much easier or not much change?
5. Perceived image quality compared to a P65+ (other than the additional MP).

Thanks for offering to do these tests.  I'm tossing up an IQ180 or 160.  Given the price of the IQ180 I don't want to assume too much with how the new sensor may perform.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: geesbert on May 02, 2011, 11:48:36 am
would it be possible to do a video screen capture of its live view?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: ctz on May 02, 2011, 11:54:11 am
would it be possible to do a video screen capture of its live view?

that would be really interesting!
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 02, 2011, 11:55:30 am
would it be possible to do a video screen capture of its live view?


As soon as Live View is available (June), we could certainly do that.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: EricWHiss on May 02, 2011, 12:00:45 pm
Steve,
Of particular interest to me is blooming control.  Could you shoot a couple shots into the top of a tree with the sun shinning through it or some other strongly back lit situation where there are a lot of fine details where one edge is dark and the other very hot? 

Thanks,
Eric
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: pixjohn on May 02, 2011, 12:59:01 pm
Can you have a car drive over the unit to make sure it holds up like previous phase test? Or maybe place it in the freezer over night?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Alan W George on May 02, 2011, 01:17:54 pm
No more pelican case?  I always thought that was a nice touch.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Alan W George on May 02, 2011, 01:20:28 pm
IQ180 and P65+ shoot out on a tech camera.  Post the raw files.  Please:)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: bradleygibson on May 02, 2011, 01:28:21 pm
How fast does go from powered off to shooting?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: rogan on May 02, 2011, 01:35:37 pm
Only 2 things
1 Can an elephant stand on it.
2 If I happen to drop it in dry ice will it still work frozen.
Those have always been phase standards, why change now?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Alan W George on May 02, 2011, 03:15:54 pm
How fast does go from powered off to shooting?

New Functionality Available in June via Firmware Upgrade:

....
• Faster boot time
....
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Nick-T on May 02, 2011, 03:35:59 pm
I think the elephant thing is pretty old hat now. How about a hippo? Oh and maybe drop it in some molten lava instead of dry ice.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Mr. Rib on May 02, 2011, 03:44:44 pm
..and please let the elephant wear a Canon/Nikon cap. He can hold a Nikon flag in his trunk if you prefer, as far as I remember Nikon had some fancy flags for their events.

and being serious- IQ180 movements vs p65+ movements on tech camera would be cool (raw files would be much appreciated) and some really-wide-angle performance on tech cam. Also newly listed long exposure feature test would be great.


Only 2 things
1 Can an elephant stand on it.
2 If I happen to drop it in dry ice will it still work frozen.
Those have always been phase standards, why change now?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: dchew on May 02, 2011, 05:41:01 pm
Since live view will not be available till June, how about evaluating focus mask:

Shots with a technical camera that has the ability to fine-tune focus, like an arca, alpa/w HPF rings, or any other available system.  Focus in and out from actual focus plane in small increments.  Check how well focus mask follows visually on the display. 

Point being can focus mask be used to critically evaluate focus? Does it behave just like C1 or are there any distinct differences?

Dave
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: darylgo on May 02, 2011, 11:20:47 pm
How well does it handle long exposures?  What is the real time limit to exposures?  Does the back do any dark frame subtraction?

And for all you crash test folks, I'll be glad to run your tests if you send me your backs. 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: marcmccalmont on May 03, 2011, 04:12:48 am
a  shot that one could determine DR/noise
Marc
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: design_freak on May 03, 2011, 08:16:06 am
1) Performance when shooting tethered to:
a) Macbook Pro i7 with 8GB RAM
b) Mac Pro 12 core with 8GB RAM
(30 images in continuous mode)
and direct to CF card
2) ISO 35 - 2 minutes exposure - noise in dark area
3) ISO 35 - how long we can expose in about 32 degrees F
4) Performance - battery in about 32 degrees F
5) Shooting with Alpa or Arca RMD3Di with wide lens :Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/24 mm XL ( with tilt)

Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: MarkoRepse on May 03, 2011, 09:06:36 am
Do all your tests on the Aptus II 12 as well and see how they compare.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 03, 2011, 09:38:23 am
1) Performance when shooting tethered to:
a) Macbook Pro i7 with 8GB RAM
b) Mac Pro 12 core with 8GB RAM
(30 images in continuous mode)
and direct to CF card
2) ISO 35 - 2 minutes exposure - noise in dark area
3) ISO 35 - how long we can expose in about 32 degrees F
4) Performance - battery in about 32 degrees F
5) Shooting with Alpa or Arca RMD3Di with wide lens :Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/24 mm XL ( with tilt)




#5 was easy - the 24mm will not cover on either the IQ160 or IQ180 (nor on the P65+, Aptus-II 12, etc).


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: bradleygibson on May 03, 2011, 10:10:31 am

New Functionality Available in June via Firmware Upgrade:

....
• Faster boot time
....


Faster than now, which is what?  (Looking for a number, please).
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: design_freak on May 03, 2011, 10:31:12 am

#5 was easy - the 24mm will not cover on either the IQ160 or IQ180 (nor on the P65+, Aptus-II 12, etc).


Steve Hendrix

Ok, you have right... Let say:  Digitar XL 35mm
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: henrikfoto on May 03, 2011, 10:46:53 am
Do all your tests on the Aptus II 12 as well and see how they compare.


I agree!
That is really interesting to see.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 03, 2011, 03:28:16 pm

I agree!
That is really interesting to see.



So - since this is cross posting to GetDPI, the combined tests from both forums that have been suggested are:


*Large movements with wide lenses on tech camera

*C1 handling of casts and falloff

*Dynamic range in practice

*New screen in use with tech camera

*Perceived image quality compared to P65+ (other than MP)

*Video screen capture of the live view

*Blooming control - shoot through tree tops with sun, etc, car bumpers in sun

*Freezing, elephants, car driving over, molten lava

*Powered off to shooting time

*Real world long exposure limits

*Focus mask evaluation

*Tethered performance 30 consecutive captures when tethered to: macbook pro i7/8GB, 12 core tower/8GB, and also to cf card

*Iso 35 2 minute exposure

*Iso 35 how long can one expose in 32 degrees

*Battery performance at 32 degrees

*Compared to Aptus II 12

*General video tutorial

*Iso performance

*P1 lenses, 28mm, 45mm, 75-150, with and without lcc to check shadow color cast

*Frame count for first battery charge, including messing around with menus, etc, reviewing images, etc.

*Composition mode - how long to 100% zoom

*Color anomalies

*P+ > IQ menu differences

*Features that work (or don't) with Contax


We'll have all these finished by the end of the day. Complete results tomorrow. May be a delay in the elephant testing and the molten lava (wickedly suggested by Nick T).

In all seriousness, we'll begin these right away and post results as we confirm them.

Thanks everyone for the input - and always open to more.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: mtomalty on May 03, 2011, 03:39:20 pm
Hi Steve,

If there is still time to add to the list I would like to see
how the back performs in a landscape-type application with lenses
such as the 28 and 45 mm with apertures moving from f11 through to f22 to
see how serious the image degrades relative to aperture

Mark
www.marktomalty.com
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on May 03, 2011, 03:44:09 pm
Color Rendition of the IQ against Drum scanned Kodak Ektar 100 4x5 inch film.
Like a colorful morning sunrise with some fog and water reflections.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: cng on May 03, 2011, 09:45:35 pm
Steve, just to clarify:  With my #4, I am more interested in the process of focusing using a tech camera and the IQ180.  i.e. how the combination of the high-res screen, zoom and any other enabled firmware work together.  Maybe also a comment on how the new IQ workflow compares to other DB's.

I suspect this will all come out in the wash anyway as you do your testing.  Thanks again for doing these tests.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Schewe on May 03, 2011, 10:29:26 pm
Color Rendition of the IQ against Drum scanned Kodak Ektar 100 4x5 inch film.

Sorry bud, that ship sailed years ago...seriously, it's not in the bit useful to compare MF digital capture to film. Film sucks...move on.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 04, 2011, 12:23:27 am
Hi,

With both Ektar (or any negative film) "correct" color essentially arises in post. It is simply not meaningful of discussion color rendition of scanned film or a digital sensor. A digital sensor is essentially a black and white device with color information. The color information is applied in raw conversion.

That said, the CGA (Color Grid Array) can have different properties (transmission characteristics), so different sensors can have different potential of capturing color. But, most of the color is actually created in postprocessing and that is highly variable.

Best regards
Erik

Sorry bud, that ship sailed years ago...seriously, it's not in the bit useful to compare MF digital capture to film. Film sucks...move on.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: EricWHiss on May 04, 2011, 01:47:13 pm

I agree!
That is really interesting to see.


Me three!
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: TMARK on May 05, 2011, 09:55:48 am
Schewe said:

Sorry bud, that ship sailed years ago...seriously, it's not in the bit useful to compare MF digital capture to film. Film sucks...move on.
Posted on: May 03, 2011, 08:45:35 PMPosted by: cng 


Give yourself a break, you don't have to be a dick all the time. 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on May 05, 2011, 10:14:33 am
I think Jeff is okay - I just remember his sentence (from a video):
"Why be subtle, when you can be ...unsubtle ?"

The confrontation was a little bit painful, but helpful as well,
because it forced me to overthink some questions.
I'm not made of sugar.
And I'll still not give up film.
Peace.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: EricWHiss on May 05, 2011, 12:37:55 pm
Sorry bud, that ship sailed years ago...seriously, it's not in the bit useful to compare MF digital capture to film. Film sucks...move on.

Maybe color film anyway. There's something about B&W that still appeals to me especially for art work, and actually instant film too.  I know people will write how you can recreate these looks in post, but overall I don't see it as the same.  The market still rewards real film with higher selling prices too.  That said I don't shoot that much film, and what's all this got to do with the IQ 180 anyhow?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: design_freak on May 06, 2011, 01:23:53 pm
Hi Guys,

Do you have any results which you could share?

:)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: uaiomex on May 07, 2011, 02:04:59 pm
With all due respect I don't agree with you. There are many photogs all around the turf that still find film more beautiful or love the difference. The 39mp 48X36 sensor was comparable to 4X5. MR kinda say that the newer backs may aproach 8X10. Maybe  that's the comparison that many want to see now at Lula.
Jesus, I can't believe I'm addressing this to someone with your credentials!  ;)
Eduardo

Sorry bud, that ship sailed years ago...seriously, it's not in the bit useful to compare MF digital capture to film. Film sucks...move on.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: bcooter on May 07, 2011, 03:06:54 pm

If film was twice as beautiful as digital capture, which I think in some instances it may be, in the world of advertising and commerce it's just not viable.  At least for large projects.

We just finished two projects and both times, three days  later. . . max., the clients have galleries of 6,000 images and web play video from the RED.

Three days after that the AD's have inserted images for POS and our studios has cut and delivered 3 minute intro video of the campaign.

In the world of instant commerce film doesn't register.

Now with that being said I've seen more than a few people go back to film for their personal work and smaller production commerce. 

It's pretty, still requires some kind of post work, but with the older large legacy cameras it makes kind of a retro statement that not only gives a little different look, but is a nice marketing slant for the artist.

Then of course there's the widelux, which nobody has done with digital in a camera that is smaller than a toyota.

http://jeffbridges.com/true_grit_book/true_grit_book_27.html

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 07, 2011, 03:45:41 pm
Hi,

There is one area where I actually would suggest film is superior digital and that is the reproduction of specular highlights. Film saturates and digital clips. It may be that film would saturate before digital clips, but there is still a difference.

For the rest of it I don't think there are magical properties of film. I'd suggest that film like effects can be achieved using curves and controls in raw development. On the other hand there has been a lot of research going on in developing the characteristics of film.

Once I tested settings in "Alien Skin" emulating Velvia, the colors got much more snap! That is until I found out what was happening, saturation was increased and shadow detail clipped. So the shadows I spent a long time on so they would show decent detail just went black!

Best regards
Erik

With all due respect I don't agree with you. There are many photogs all around the turf that still find film more beautiful or love the difference. The 39mp 48X36 sensor was comparable to 4X5. MR kinda say that the newer backs may aproach 8X10. Maybe  that's the comparison that many want to see now at Lula.
Jesus, I can't believe I'm addressing this to someone with your credentials!  ;)
Eduardo

Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: uaiomex on May 08, 2011, 09:44:28 pm
Christoph asked for color rendition in scene with fog and water reflections.
Water reflections contain specular highlights and good fog rendition was easy to record due to the random position of the silver halides. I can assume that Christoph may find these 2 questionable. At least every now and then.
Regards
Eduardo


 
Hi,

There is one area where I actually would suggest film is superior digital and that is the reproduction of specular highlights. Film saturates and digital clips. It may be that film would saturate before digital clips, but there is still a difference.

For the rest of it I don't think there are magical properties of film. I'd suggest that film like effects can be achieved using curves and controls in raw development. On the other hand there has been a lot of research going on in developing the characteristics of film.

Once I tested settings in "Alien Skin" emulating Velvia, the colors got much more snap! That is until I found out what was happening, saturation was increased and shadow detail clipped. So the shadows I spent a long time on so they would show decent detail just went black!

Best regards
Erik

Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on May 09, 2011, 04:45:48 am
Christoph asked for color rendition in scene with fog and water reflections.
Water reflections contain specular highlights and good fog rendition was easy to record due to the random position of the silver halides. I can assume that Christoph may find these 2 questionable. At least every now and then.
Regards
Eduardo

The scene I had in mind would provide saturated colors, especially in the red channel, and subdued color as well as specular highlights and an overall high contrast (imagining a backlit scene) along with more subtle tones. Would be interesting to see the differences, indeed.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: design_freak on May 10, 2011, 09:58:21 am
Do you have any samples from your test? That you can share with us ...
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: mtomalty on May 20, 2011, 01:11:08 pm

Anything forthcoming with the tests ?

It's been a couple of weeks since the  request was initiated.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: Doug Peterson on May 20, 2011, 01:38:15 pm
Slowly getting there.

Initial long exposure tests at 70ish degrees were very good at 60 seconds, good at 90 seconds, and so-so at 120 seconds. Based on past experience with the 65+ and it's initial performance versus it's spec of 60 seconds this was about what I expected. I spoke with the development team and some modest improvements are likely to come in the next firmware/software release to ensure that the 120 second spec is a real-world number. For now I think the max good quality is somewhere between 90 seconds and 120 seconds, and we need to determine where within that range it falls. For the heck of it also tried a 3 min exposure (a full minute past the spec) and while the back did not explode, the results were not photographically useful.

We've been very impressed by ISO1600 and the ISO3200 has been moderately better than the ISO3200 on the 65+. The 3200 is still not usable for straight commercial work, but I personally like the way it looks if handled with care and assuming you don't mind grain/noise as long as it's nicely structured.

For the heck of it we shot some at effective ISOs of 4000-7000 (meaning ISO3200 setting on the camera, then underexposing the raw and pushing in Capture One). ISO4000-5000 was still pretty (meaning I'd use it for personal shooting) if converted to black and white, noise reduced in Capture One and some fine grain and contrast added in Capture One. Anything past that was just plain funky.

ISO32 has shown incredible dynamic range. Still getting used to the nuances of the file and trying to determine proper handling compared to a 65+ for best results.

We also have a studio shot of the IQ180 we hope to post next week in raw for download.

Battery life has been a surprising positive. We were very nervous with the larger screen, beefy processors, and new technology that battery life would be at best mediocre. Further testing is definitely warranted, but here are two tests:
- leave the LCD on and at normal brightness without doing anything: 5 hours of battery life
- real world: we started with a fresh battery, started hand-held fashion shooting, using the LCD to review the images including focus mask and zooming to 100% with "normal" frequency (meaning composing a shot, shooting 15-20 shots, pausing and reviewing those shots, then at breaks checking through the shots again) for a total of 300 frames over about an hour. Then took the back up and did eight long exposures (known for being battery intensive), leaving the LCD on the whole time (turns out you can review shots while the dark-frame is capturing), followed by another 50 casual shots seated at a table eating dinner followed by reviewing images on the LCD for a full 30 minutes (including constant change of the image and zooming, rating, focus mask use) trying to wear down the battery. We were all surprised that the battery had not run out and ran out of time to continue testing battery life.

Steve did a lens test comparing the three autofocus 80mm lenses available for the Phase platform. We are working on getting the raws up for download from that test.
 - Phase One Lens Test with IQ180 (http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/lens/)

Dave and I have been traveling a lot this two weeks and that leaves Steve to handle a disproportionate amount of the work in the Atlanta office. So we haven't been able to jump on this as fully as we'd like. My travel is largely over in mid June and I have very high hopes for the amount of direct and in-depth testing I'll be able to contribute at that point. My personal biggest focus will be on tech cameras, movements, dynamic range, and noise.

I'll be off the forums for a bit as I have a lot of non forum stuff piling up. So excuse me if you ask a question here and I don't get back to you right away.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
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Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: gazwas on May 20, 2011, 02:56:28 pm
Doug, good news on the testing so far.

Would be good to know how it stacks up against the P65+ and it would be good to see side by side results during your testing.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: design_freak on May 31, 2011, 02:53:53 pm
Do you divide the results of these tests? Any sample pictures?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ180 has arrived - request for tests
Post by: MrSmith on June 01, 2011, 05:16:05 am
can you test if your clients notice a difference when they look at their DPS/adshel/48sheet/website?