Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Peter Devos on April 16, 2011, 12:05:24 pm

Title: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 16, 2011, 12:05:24 pm
For my Fine art photography aswell as for my painting reproductions i am looking for a telephoto lens in the 250/350mm. I already have the 300mm 4,5 HC lens on my CF39MS but i am not completely satisfied with the results. I remember the Telesuperachromat from the nineties last centurie and at a Zeiss seminar i was really impressed with the image quality compared to the 180CFE and the 250/350 sonnar lenses.
How do they perform on a digital back and what should be a fair price for a mint/as new in box 250 or 350 SA.
Greetz.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: design_freak on April 16, 2011, 12:23:26 pm
For my Fine art photography aswell as for my painting reproductions i am looking for a telephoto lens in the 250/350mm. I already have the 300mm 4,5 HC lens on my CF39MS but i am not completely satisfied with the results. I remember the Telesuperachromat from the nineties last centurie and at a Zeiss seminar i was really impressed with the image quality compared to the 180CFE and the 250/350 sonnar lenses.
How do they perform on a digital back and what should be a fair price for a mint/as new in box 250 or 350 SA.
Greetz.

HC 4,5/300 for painting reproduction???!  Try HC 2.2/100, it's very nice lens for repro work.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: John R Smith on April 16, 2011, 12:27:05 pm
Peter

According to my sources, there is only the 250mm SuperAchromat, and no 350mm version. It is reputed to be one of the finest lenses that Zeiss ever made, and has never had the T* coating (Nordin, R, 1998, Hasselblad Compendium, p153). Both the C and the CF version were made in very small quantities.

As far as price goes, if someone had one of these in mint condition in its box, they could ask virtually what they liked for it.

John
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: design_freak on April 16, 2011, 12:30:13 pm
For my Fine art photography aswell as for my painting reproductions i am looking for a telephoto lens in the 250/350mm. I already have the 300mm 4,5 HC lens on my CF39MS but i am not completely satisfied with the results. I remember the Telesuperachromat from the nineties last centurie and at a Zeiss seminar i was really impressed with the image quality compared to the 180CFE and the 250/350 sonnar lenses.
How do they perform on a digital back and what should be a fair price for a mint/as new in box 250 or 350 SA.
Greetz.
What do you mean that you are not satisfied with the result? Maybe the fault lies in something else. Maybe you're using the wrong head or tripod, and perhaps unstable lighting ... It is quite important when shooting in MS mode.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: John R Smith on April 16, 2011, 12:42:57 pm
The specification for the CF version is here -

http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/pdf/lds/CF250SA.pdf (http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/pdf/lds/CF250SA.pdf)

John
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 16, 2011, 12:43:44 pm
The 100mm  is way to short to shoot large paintings. I shot MS with a Apo ronar and that was already way better than my 300mm. Especially the shiny highlights on the paint draps are without artefacts and the image is extremely crispy and sharp. Unfortunately, the Apo ronar cannot be mounted on a MF camera, the 350SA and 250SA can be used on a mamiya, contax and even on a H3d( but only in one shot).
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: John R Smith on April 16, 2011, 12:54:11 pm
My mistake - there is also a 350mm Tele SuperAchromat. Nordin is not always correct!

I should think it would be equally rare and expensive . . .

John
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: henrikfoto on April 16, 2011, 01:24:17 pm
I have both of these lenses end have used them with a digital back.
They are both a lot sharper han the HC300.

The 250 is slightly better than the 350. It's the sharpest lens I have ever tried on
a digital back. I love his lens. Extremely good lenses. The only slight minus is the out of focus areas which
is not as smooth as some other lenses. That might not be an issue for you?

These lenses are stil highly priced. I would say you could get one in mint for about 7-8.000 $ (250 mm)
Thats the last multicoated version.

Henrik
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: design_freak on April 16, 2011, 01:29:18 pm
The 100mm  is way to short to shoot large paintings. I shot MS with a Apo ronar and that was already way better than my 300mm. Especially the shiny highlights on the paint draps are without artefacts and the image is extremely crispy and sharp. Unfortunately, the Apo ronar cannot be mounted on a MF camera, the 350SA and 250SA can be used on a mamiya, contax and even on a H3d( but only in one shot).


How long Apo ronar you have?
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 16, 2011, 01:31:13 pm
How long Apo ronar you have?


I do have the 360mm.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 16, 2011, 01:32:35 pm
Any idea's about how much i should pay for the 250 or 350mm SA?
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: design_freak on April 16, 2011, 01:52:40 pm
Any idea's about how much i should pay for the 250 or 350mm SA?

It's quite expensive... about $k10. 
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 16, 2011, 02:14:22 pm
I have seen a brand new 350SA FE for 7500 euro, Apo convertor included and in original boxes. Don't know what to do...
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: design_freak on April 16, 2011, 02:37:36 pm
I have seen a brand new 350SA FE for 7500 euro, Apo convertor included and in original boxes. Don't know what to do...
I'm not sure if it's worth to spend so much money. And are you sure the outcome will be relevant to quality. Technology has changed substantially.  Ask that question to David Grover
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: henrikfoto on April 16, 2011, 04:02:23 pm
Hasselblad will tell you that the new H-lenses are superior. Use some time to study the MTF-charts on these lenses and you will see the truth is not that simple..

These lenses are better than any long lenses made today.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 16, 2011, 04:20:59 pm
That is exactly what i think too. I have used some Apo corrected lenses on my Hartbleicam with 39 and 50Mp and they easely blew away all shots taken with Hasselblad HC lenses. So the only question will be, should i buy the lens for +7K euro?
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: henrikfoto on April 16, 2011, 04:26:06 pm
I think that is an ok price, but not an extreme deal.
Worth every cent thouh :)
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Dick Roadnight on April 16, 2011, 04:31:54 pm
How long Apo ronar you have?

I think one of my 600mms is an apo-Ronar, on a Sinar lensboard.

I have a T* 250 If I have thought it was good I might not have bought the HC 300.

I have a Leica-made Novoflex 400mm lens-head, which was much more expensive than the standard 400, so I thin that might be good for digital.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Dick Roadnight on April 16, 2011, 04:34:57 pm
Hasselblad will tell you that the new H-lenses are superior. Use some time to study the MTF-charts on these lenses and you will see the truth is not that simple..

These lenses are better than any long lenses made today.
The res for the 250 MTF charts are for 10, 20  & 40 cycles/mm, but this is, surprisingly the same as the HC300 - I thought that quality lens makers used higher-res yardsticks now?

Why not try a Schneider Apo-Digitar?
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: design_freak on April 16, 2011, 04:47:05 pm
How long Apo ronar you have?

I think one of my 600mms is an apo-Ronar, on a Sinar lensboard.

I have a T* 250 If I have thought it was good I might not have bought the HC 300.

I have a Leica-made Novoflex 400mm lens-head, which was much more expensive than the standard 400, so I thin that might be good for digital.

Maybe it's better to advise a colleague, the lens is adequate for the task, and not to ridicule
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 16, 2011, 05:03:09 pm
It is not only about high resolution. Also the total absence of CA and other aberations is the main reason to go SA.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: design_freak on April 16, 2011, 05:09:06 pm
It is not only about high resolution. Also the total absence of CA and other aberations is the main reason to go SA.
I am not sure about that
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 16, 2011, 05:47:03 pm
I am not sure about that
I am.   ;)
People do find it normal to use Zeiss lenses on a Canon or Nikon camera, to pay double the price of a Nicanokin lens. I think a SA will also be better than the plastic fantastic Telephoto HC lenses. I will try to do some comparison next week as i will be testing the 350SA against my 300 HC lens. 8) :o
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: donaldt on April 16, 2011, 09:22:33 pm
here is the problem many current Hass H user run into
their lens are good, but not great (okay I have heard a lot of good stuff about the 100mm, but I am still using the CF 100mm f3.5 and believe its one of the best lens ever made)
I bought the 150mm, but sold it and decided to stick with the CF 180mm for now...
honestly MTF is a fair reference but thats as far as it goes, it tells little about the quality of the lens as it is missing a lot of the aspects

the 250mm SA and 350mm SA are of the finest tele lenses ever produced(not that I owned one but I was thinking about getting it so I did my homework)
I would understand if you dont like the HC300mm
but if you are still not happy with the SAs, then you need your camera checked, something has gotta be wrong
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 17, 2011, 03:49:44 am
This morning, half an hour ago i picked-up the 350mm SA CFE lens to test. First thing that is very noticeble is that the 350mm is much bigger than my 300mm HC lens. Also, the 350 seems to be an mechanical " uberlens". I never ever have seen a lens so beautiful manufactured as this one. Focussing goes so smooth, almost as if there is a a little guy inside the lens helping you focus. To put it in " automotive" perspective: my HC300mm is the Toyota Prius, a great car designed to perform very well and built as most consumer things are these days. The Zeiss SA on the other hand is like a Rolls Royce. Everything on the lens is as perfect as one can imagine. I have had the 250 FE and 350 FE f4.0 lenses too, but these came now were close to the SA lens. If the HC300 could be manufactured the same way they did with the 350SA, it would cost at least 10K euro to start with.
I hope to have some time to perform some lens testing today. I will keep you all informed.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Ajoy Roy on April 17, 2011, 04:24:33 am
Here is a second hand one http://www.arsenal-photo.hk/product.asp?pid=8901&cat1=120&cat2=254&cat3=2&keys=&size=&sort=price&dir=&pg=1
 around $8.3K. I had seen an ad in a European site for the 350mm, but it eludes me now.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: design_freak on April 17, 2011, 04:52:43 am
Change your system to Phase/Mamiya . In this year they will deliver new  lens Schneider Kreuznach 240 mm LS. It should be very nice lens.
But...
Your application is quite specific to the hardware you are using rather strange as any, apply. Maybe you should change your equipment to something more appropriate for these uses. ALPA / Arca-Swiss / Linhof. There are many excellent lenses with high resolution, much better than all the medium format. I think that is the best solution.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 17, 2011, 06:04:29 am
I doubt that these lenses will be any better than their Hasselblad HC counterparts. I have had the schneider 55 and 80mm LS lenses and they were not better than similar Hasselblad lenses, not even than the 35/90mm zoomlens. When using a high res back, mamiya still cannot deliver lenses up to the capabilities of those backs. It is specially for some specific reason i want to use the SA lenses, not for resolution solely.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: donaldt on April 17, 2011, 07:17:53 am
I believe the Rollei system has the best lens line overall
however if you are talking about the 300mm rage the best is still the Hasselblad SA
the next on the line could be the Contax 350mm F4 due to the speed and overall performance

Rollei does have a superb 500mm Apo-tessar though
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 17, 2011, 07:47:29 am
Rollei was a great system, I used it simultanously with my Contax645 set with indeed the 350mm F4. but that was for general photography, now i simply want the best performing lens possible on a MF body, without hassle and mounting these on TC or other contraptions. I also want to use the SA lenses on my Hartbleicam.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: henrikfoto on April 17, 2011, 08:09:59 am
Hi Peter!

I think you will find the 350 SA just as good as the build quality.
I am looking forward to the results from your testing.

What back will you be using?

Henrik
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 17, 2011, 12:37:04 pm
Hi Peter!

I think you will find the 350 SA just as good as the build quality.
I am looking forward to the results from your testing.

What back will you be using?

Henrik

I will be using the 50Mp back with it. Unfortunately i haven't had a chance to do some testing because of to much work in the garden :-)
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: henrikfoto on April 18, 2011, 01:38:39 pm
Hi Peter!

Did you have any time to test it yet?

Henrik
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 18, 2011, 05:15:54 pm
I have been shooting stuff but this was for clients. The lens performed really well, as expected.  ;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: BobDavid on April 18, 2011, 10:00:04 pm
The sharpest lens that I've ever used for fine art repro is the Schneider APO Digitar 72mm f/5.6L. I've used it with the CF39 MS. Great combo.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: donaldt on April 18, 2011, 10:14:00 pm
how much did you pick up yours?
I am looking to get a SA 250mm in the future and I use the 50MP back as well
its good to know it works nicely
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 19, 2011, 02:40:17 am
Now i have both lenses, the 250 SA and the 350 SA. Mechanically the 350 is a total other world than the 250SA. I haven't been able to do a test on my 50Mp with all 3 lenses( 300HC/350SA/250SA) because i let someone else have my CF converter but on my Mamiya 645 with CF39MS back the 350SA is a gem. :D
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: donaldt on April 19, 2011, 02:48:26 am
so the SA 350 is that much better? I know its a lot rarer but didnt expect it to out perform its little brother

Now i have both lenses, the 250 SA and the 350 SA. Mechanically the 350 is a total other world than the 250SA. I haven't been able to do a test on my 50Mp with all 3 lenses( 300HC/350SA/250SA) because i let someone else have my CF converter but on my Mamiya 645 with CF39MS back the 350SA is a gem. :D
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: Peter Devos on April 19, 2011, 03:45:43 am
so the SA 350 is that much better? I know its a lot rarer but didnt expect it to out perform its little brother


I do not know yet if he is optically any better, but mechanically it is as comparing a silver 150mm sonnar to the 150mm CFI latest version. Both my SA elnses are CFE. I might get my hands on a second SA350mm but that one is a heavely used one. Maybe i will sell my pristine one and keep the used one... don't know yet.
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: henrikfoto on April 19, 2011, 11:34:27 am
Now i have both lenses, the 250 SA and the 350 SA. Mechanically the 350 is a total other world than the 250SA. I haven't been able to do a test on my 50Mp with all 3 lenses( 300HC/350SA/250SA) because i let someone else have my CF converter but on my Mamiya 645 with CF39MS back the 350SA is a gem. :D


Yes the 350 sa looks more impressing, but test the 250 sa. This lens is even better than the 350 sa.
Both are extremely good!!!

Henrik
Title: Re: Zeiss Superachromat T* 250/350mm any good
Post by: brianc1959 on May 16, 2011, 10:47:05 pm
Hasselblad will tell you that the new H-lenses are superior. Use some time to study the MTF-charts on these lenses and you will see the truth is not that simple..

These lenses are better than any long lenses made today.

Not simple is right.  I've always found the MTF curves for the 250 SA to be perplexing because the performance is not particularly close to the diffraction limit even at f/8.  Also, reading between the lines of Zeiss' own published literature on superachromats, I have to wonder whether they are really superachromatic or not.  I once analyzed the patent prescriptions for the 250 SA, and it only appeared to be an apochromat with three crossings.  I'd certainly like to do a UV-IR star test on an actual lens to find out what it actually does.