Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: RSL on April 11, 2011, 03:22:01 pm
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To be sure, Russ, the US stands on the brink, but her capacity to recover is much more powerful than the puny economic clout we wield (if wield is even the right word). Right now, we have ceded our economic independence and to all intents and purposes, our hard-won status as a sovereign nation to the European Central Bank, the International Monetary Fund,and a collection of banks, mainly in Germany and France who recklessly fuelled the so-called Celtic Tiger (basically a property bubble) with cheap money of which we readily and greedily availed at catastrophic cost to a once proud country. It's cold comfort to know that we are not alone. What's hard to swallow is the knowledge that we took the shilling and did most of the damage to ourselves. What else is new!
All this is a far cry from the poor gnomes above - I posted the picture for a bit of fun after trying out my s90.When feppe suggested they might be going on a trip, it occurred to me there is nowhere for them to go and they'd be better advised to stay behind the garden wall because what's outside it ain't a pretty sight at the moment.
Seamus, You're right. The US is remarkably resilient and I have high hopes that we'll be able to change course soon enough to avoid the chasm. But we've already plunged ourselves into a serious inflation. Our "leaders" tell us that so far there's no inflation because except for gasoline and groceries, prices haven't risen noticeably. But if I remember correctly from economics, "inflation" is defined as an increase in the supply of money relative to the supply of goods. If that definition is the correct one we're already in the midst of a massive inflation. The only reason "core" prices haven't risen is that everyone's sitting on what they have left and the "velocity" of money hasn't increased. So until the velocity of money increases we average householders are okay as long as we don't need gasoline or groceries.
I agree that what's happened to the Celtic Tiger is tragic, especially the loss of sovereignty that went with it. I see the same thing happening to my own country, though perhaps not as precipitously as it happened there. And I pray that Ireland and the other countries that followed the Pied Piper will find their way back home.
But from what I've learned from having been stationed with Australians on more than one occasion, they're a wonderful people, so perhaps the gnomes wouldn't be too badly off if they joined the exodus.
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I suspect that Tigers of all colours are coming home to roost, if tigers can roost. I don't really believe that economics are much to do with the world in which I live, rather do I believe them to be a form of flexible theory brought out in times of stress to calm the nerves of the savages who might, just might, go nuts and drop all pretence at civilization if some faith healing wasn't brough out of the cupboard at the appropriate moment.
The sort of economic sense that appears to work is one based on basic barter: my eggs for your mandarins. Which is very cool, until you start to question just how many eggs a mandarin make. Or the other way around, depending on your balance of eggs. Or your reserve of mandarins.
Unfortunately, when we swap these things that we all need for exotica beyond our comprehension, we get left behind and have to start trusting our betters. Only then do we discover that they aren't really better at all, just more cunning and ruthless with the added plus of not being troubled by that silly little thing we call a conscience.
But how can we blame them for trying? They'd get nowhere without our unreserved help: our own suspended belief of reality allows us to think we can only do better as we follow the yellow brick road; we buy what we can't afford, rob Peter to pay Paul and then stand amazed, aghast, when the yellow brick road turns into a friggin' yellow brick hole. But it's always somebody else's fault, haven't you noticed?
;-(
Rob C
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I learned someone that knows how to outfit lighting in public places makes an annual salary near six figures.
Sure we need that, but from where the trickle down begins,
to the very wages and value commanded,
there has always been some strange disconnect in just who will be paying, and who will be taking.
So you have a fabulous idea to fund speculation and deals with real estate value?
Just who pays for the land?
And who pays their wages?
Demanding employers willing to go to an lengths to see collective bargaining abolished?
Just who pays and who takes?
Money is a barbaric concept and a poison to humanity
We're limited by it,
bound to it,
can't imagine a world without it.
All preposterous by most measures.
Offer me 3 million for almost anything and my mind is subject to change.
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Russ, thanks for moving the topic here. I never intended a discussion like this to start in Critique.
You're right about the Australians. I have a son working there as a graphic designer, with his own business for many years now. The difference between his story and many others nowadays is that he emigrated voluntarily and made a fine life for himself Down Under. The current young generation have no choice but to go because there is no work here. I have another son in Barcelona. He too chose to go and again has succeeded in Spain.
Neither one of them would come home, even if there was work for them. They detest what has happened to this country and abhor the political and banking system which brought about our ruination. I wonder if many people outside Ireland really understand the true scale of the catastrophe, and, worse still, what will continue to happen to our children's children.
Rob, it's true many chickens are coming home to roost but I doubt if any of them will be as malignant as the one we have here. I could go on at length about the mindset that piled our own self-created recession on top of the world-wide one, but I'd only bore you all to tears.
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They detest what has happened to this country and abhor the political and banking system which brought about our ruination. I wonder if many people outside Ireland really understand the true scale of the catastrophe, and, worse still, what will continue to happen to our children's children.
Rob, it's true many chickens are coming home to roost but I doubt if any of them will be as malignant as the one we have here. I could go on at length about the mindset that piled our own self-created recession on top of the world-wide one, but I'd only bore you all to tears.
It's all very well to blame the bankers and the politicians. What happened in Ireland could not have happened without the wholehearted support of its people, who having lived in a poor country suddenly found themselves living in one perceived to be rich, with rampant property prices and a supposedly booming economy, and loved it. The Irish population can't absolve themselves of all responsibility by finding scapegoats.
Jeremy
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It's all very well to blame the bankers and the politicians. What happened in Ireland could not have happened without the wholehearted support of its people, who having lived in a poor country suddenly found themselves living in one perceived to be rich, with rampant property prices and a supposedly booming economy, and loved it. The Irish population can't absolve themselves of all responsibility by finding scapegoats.
Jeremy
Absolutely, and a sentiment shared in my own post above. We self-congratulate whilst things are cool and then blame the rest of humanity when things go pear-shaped.
I was watching our UK top politico's excoriation of Oxford Univerity for having a negligible intake of coloured students. Not a word was mentioned about qualifications, but all the emphasis put upon catching more minority votes in a parody of the socialist governments prior to the era of Mrs Thatcher. How absurd to watch one emperor don the invisible clothes of yet another... In those days it was called 'positive discrimination'; you know, selective favouritism for targeted political gain. I think today's mantra for the same tilting of reality is a 'fair' society. I just love words like fair; so flexible and so open to interpretation...
Some days I think I may as well just let the tv die without trying to fix, or even live with, its funny now-it-works-now-it-doesn't state of being.
Rob C
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It's all very well to blame the bankers and the politicians. What happened in Ireland could not have happened without the wholehearted support of its people, who having lived in a poor country suddenly found themselves living in one perceived to be rich, with rampant property prices and a supposedly booming economy, and loved it. The Irish population can't absolve themselves of all responsibility by finding scapegoats.
I absolutely agree with both yourself and Rob. I always take as a given the public's capacity for self-delusion and greed - especially when the money is flowing. We waded into the deep end with out eyes wide shut. That's what people do - everywhere. That's why the scorpion stung the frog - it's in his nature.
Remember, a similar bubble happened in Holland in 1637 when Tulip Mania hit the country during the so-called Dutch Golden Age. Contract prices for bulbs soared to incredibly high levels and then suddenly collapsed. At the peak of tulip mania, in February 1637, single tulip bulbs sold for more than 10 times the annual income of a skilled craftsman. Many economists regard this as the first recorded speculative bubble. Substitute tulips for property in Ireland and you get the picture. Banks behaved recklessly to gain market share and the public couldn't resist. Sure, I blame them for their irresponsibility and lack of foresight.
What I cannot forgive, however, is the lack of political oversight. Where were the banking regulators, the Central Bank et al while the bubble grew? The regulatory system failed abysmally. The Minister for Finance refused to intervene. The authorities turned a blind eye because the political climate of the day required a see no evil approach. Elections were bought with the public's own money. Public service costs ran out of control. Wages soared. You all know the story by now. Nobody in any elected position of authority cried stop. Instead, the buzz phrase was 'soft landing'.
A few economic commentators warned there would be a terrible day of reckoning. They were told by our then Prime Minister to take a hike. He wondered if they felt that way why the didn't go off and commit suicide.
One of the functions of government is to protect the common good. It didn't happen here. Instead we had a period of hubris, arrogance, corruption and scandals, followed by inordinately expensive tribunals of enquiry, one of which took something like fourteen years to complete its work.
And all this, mind you, in a country whose population is probably smaller than Manchester, England - a country which boasted at the height of the boom that it was one of the richest in the world!
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Talk of tulip bubbles reminds me of a fine book, on that and other examples of people going crazy [the South Sea Bubble, etc.]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds
Published in 1841, could have been last week. Also, Mackay has a nice turn of phrase.
Upon graduating in 1986, I left Ireland. I wonder if it feels more or less cheerless now than it did then. I guess the social situation has changed markedly in ways that I like, but the financial straits seem considerably worse. Perhaps all that fab infrastructure built at EU-expense will make the recovery happen a little faster than otherwise. It can't harm.
c
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One of the functions of government is to protect the common good. It didn't happen here. Instead we had a period of hubris, arrogance, corruption and scandals, followed by inordinately expensive tribunals of enquiry, one of which took something like fourteen years to complete its work.
Seamus, the US experienced a similar abdication of responsibility on the part of its government. Instead of responsible oversight we saw members of congress insisting that our government-backed mortgage companies make loans to people who couldn't possibly pay them back. Hubris certainly was involved, but buying votes with taxpayers' money was the bottom line, as well as under-the-table financial favors toward certain congressmen. That's corruption plain and simple, and, of course as soon as honest investigators began looking into the corruption the scandals were exposed -- mostly on the back pages of our newspapers of "record."
What bothers me most is that old question: "Where's the outrage?" When I was in my twenties something like this would have brought down thunder and lightning on the perpetrators, but the reaction here has been pretty ho-hum. So far, no tribunals. But when I look at some of the tribunals of the past I realize that tribunals amount to the foxes guarding the henhouse and pay the foxes quite well for the privilege.
As you point out, all this is nothing new. Human nature never changes
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Some days I think I may as well just let the tv die without trying to fix, or even live with, its funny now-it-works-now-it-doesn't state of being.
Rob, Take it from me, that's an excellent idea. For many years I watched TV every evening, always thinking that it couldn't get any worse. Finally, I realized I was wrong and just quit. I haven't watched TV since, except when election returns are coming in. Haven't missed it at all. Get a lot of reading done. Am able to sneer at people who tell me about TV programs. Life is wonderful again.
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Russ and Rob,
Although retired, I'm a journalist and editor of the old school (the decent school I truly believe), forty years of it, printer's ink in my veins. The other week I shocked myself by turning off the radio lunchtime news which I thought was an essential part of living. That evening, I consciously refused to watch the television news and the following morning, didn't buy any paper. I've been doing that more often ever since. I guess I'm trying to tell myself something. Whatever's going on, it's a novel feeling!
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Upon graduating in 1986, I left Ireland. I wonder if it feels more or less cheerless now than it did then. I guess the social situation has changed markedly in ways that I like, but the financial straits seem considerably worse. Perhaps all that fab infrastructure built at EU-expense will make the recovery happen a little faster than otherwise. It can't harm.
Things have changed a lot in many ways.
1. Separation of church and state (big time). Country far more pluralist than before. (About time)
2 Not as cheerless as you might expect, all things considered.
3 Major unemployment.
4. Country basically bankrupt. Kindness of strangers (as one economist put it) keeping us afloat.
5. Plenty of zombie banks around the place.
6 IMF personnel visit us twice a month to make sure we're meeting our commitments. (Humiliating).
7 Sovereignty surrendered to European Central Bank, IMF etc. (More humiliation)
8. Default on sovereign debts on the cards in the medium term as the gap between national income and expenditure is simply too much.
9. Plenty of empty retail outlets. Also loads of busted developers and householders in negative equity.
10.Take my advice and don't come back.
11. Other than that......well, the glass of Guinness is half empty rather than half full.
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Things have changed a lot in many ways.
1. Separation of church and state (big time). Country far more pluralist than before. (About time)
2 Not as cheerless as you might expect, all things considered.
3 Major unemployment.
4. Country basically bankrupt. Kindness of strangers (as one economist put it) keeping us afloat.
5. Plenty of zombie banks around the place.
6 IMF personnel visit us twice a month to make sure we're meeting our commitments. (Humiliating).
7 Sovereignty surrendered to European Central Bank, IMF etc. (More humiliation)
8. Default on sovereign debts on the cards in the medium term as the gap between national income and expenditure is simply too much.
9. Plenty of empty retail outlets. Also loads of busted developers and householders in negative equity.
10.Take my advice and don't come back.
11. Other than that......well, the glass of Guinness is half empty rather than half full.
"7 Sovereignty surrendered to European Central Bank, IMF etc. (More humiliation)"
Sounds exactly like the entire backdrop to the EEC concept. In my opinion, it was a great idea to form a sort of open or common market but a very flawed one to inject ideas about shared sovereignty, which is exactly what seems to be happening, quite apart from the financial crisis. But, I can't deny that it makes it easier for me to live outwith my country of birth...
Rob C
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Rob, Take it from me, that's an excellent idea. For many years I watched TV every evening, always thinking that it couldn't get any worse. Finally, I realized I was wrong and just quit. I haven't watched TV since, except when election returns are coming in. Haven't missed it at all. Get a lot of reading done. Am able to sneer at people who tell me about TV programs. Life is wonderful again.
I did exactly the same thing as you Russ, and get the same results.
Actually, I do not even have tv since I've moved.
Not just one time I missed it.
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"7 Sovereignty surrendered to European Central Bank, IMF etc. (More humiliation)"
Sounds exactly like the entire backdrop to the EEC concept. In my opinion, it was a great idea to form a sort of open or common market but a very flawed one to inject ideas about shared sovereignty, which is exactly what seems to be happening, quite apart from the financial crisis. But, I can't deny that it makes it easier for me to live outwith my country of birth...
Rob C
Hi Rob
I heard an interesting take on the EU during a BBC 'Thinking Allowed' program ( the subject was 'Cosmopolitanism' ) a few days ago - that for all the EU's shortcomings the idea of a war between Western European nations is now more or less unthinkable. That's after centuries of butchery, bloodshed & genocide ( which was often exported to other parts of the world ).
As for sovereignty, I'm not sure I'm particularly bothered whether the UK is administered by a gang of Eurocrats in Brussels or a bunch of public schoolboys in London - they're both pretty unrepresentative of most of the UK ( and probably equally corrupt / incompetent ).
The direct link to the program is at:
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/ta/ta_20110112-1530a.mp3
If that link doesn't work it's halfway down this page:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/ta/all
Russ
I find that I need at least 3 glasses of wine in me before my mind is dulled enough to enjoy TV. And I can't remember how I wasted time before the Internet.
Gotta go and do some work.
Regards to you all.
Graeme
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"As for sovereignty, I'm not sure I'm particularly bothered whether the UK is administered by a gang of Eurocrats in Brussels or a bunch of public schoolboys in London - they're both pretty unrepresentative of most of the UK ( and probably equally corrupt / incompetent )."
Trouble is, if not people with a reasonably good education, what's left?
I've worked on a factory floor: I wouldn't recommend the denizens for thinking leadership either, though most did make very good followers, particularly the so-called leaders.
Rob C
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For a country like Ireland, who fought so hard for it, part of the price being a subsequent civil war, loss of sovereignty is a savage psychological blow. That's what people outside the Emerald Isle don't get.
As for the broader EU, the fundamental structural flaw at birth is that they are trying to impose a one-for-all economic structure based on countries like Germany on nations for whom that structure is entirely unsuited. For example, the UK controls your own interest rates - a tool we could really do with right now. In the long run, maybe a two-tier Europe is on the way - one for the rich, and a second division for the likes of us. One thing is sure: if some structural reform isn't done soon, the euro itself may go down. However, given the massive political investment in the project, I can't see the big players allowing that to happen.
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You may be right, Seamus, as nobody ever gets to really, really count the money it might as well be seventy-one percent imaginary as eighty-two percent: it matters not a jot. However, a two-tier Euro would be as useless as the present one: the Germans would still hanker after the Dmark and the Spanish and Italians will never forgive the Euro stopping so many from being able honestly to claim themselves millionaires. I know that I won't forgive the Euro for my present impression of impecuniosity!
Rob C
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...given the massive political investment in the project, I can't see the big players allowing that to happen.
Seamus, I'm sure they'll fight tooth and nail to make sure it doesn't happen, but in the long run they may not be able to keep control. Depends on how many more countries they try to "help." If I had to bet, I think I'd bet on the Euro going down the drain -- eventually. Individual nations need to be able to control their own currency. We're seeing a demonstration of that every day now. The whole Euro idea was based on doing away with individual sovereignty. Didn't quite happen. In the meantime I'm watching my own country try to give away its sovereignty to the UN.
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Here in Spain, someone recently posted a joke in a newspaper, saying something along the lines of "why do we need governments, when we have markets"...
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Over here they ask what's the difference between Ireland and Iceland? One letter.
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Here in Spain, someone recently posted a joke in a newspaper, saying something along the lines of "why do we need governments, when we have markets"...
Eduardo
In my usual lunchtime restaurant they have an optimistically large bottle for the tips. Stuck to the circumference is a poster some wag has made/discovered: it's a picture of Franco and he's saying 'bastards, in my time you could smoke!'.
For those not au fait with current politics, smoking has recently been outlawed in all restaurants and bars. This has had interesting side-effects: in some establishments the food suddenly tastes amazingly good, whilst in others it has just as suddenly dropped in perceived quality...
;-) or, alternatively, :-( depending on where you dine.
Rob C
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The whole Euro idea was based on doing away with individual sovereignty.
Not so. European Central Bank does have sole control of monetary policy, but fiscal policy is still controlled by individual countries. It is in large part the fiscal policy of some countries in the periphery of the region which is threatening euro-area monetary stability.
So it is the existence of sovereign fiscal policy combined with collective responsibility which is biting us in the ass: those countries in the periphery took the risk, but everyone ends up paying for the failur in bail-outs, loan backing, weakened euro, and giving perverse incentives for future offenders.
But Finland just might put an end to that craziness (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/177fc25e-53e0-11e0-8bd7-00144feab49a.html).
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Harri, What you just explained is exactly what I said. The Euro idea can't possibly survive as long as individual nations have their own fiscal policies. The people who thought up the Euro weren't stupid. They realized that, which is why there was a massive attempt to create a unified Europe where a central authority would control the fisc. As I said, it didn't work out that way, and now the Euro is in deep doo-doo.
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Harri, What you just explained is exactly what I said. The Euro idea can't possibly survive as long as individual nations have their own fiscal policies. The people who thought up the Euro weren't stupid. They realized that, which is why there was a massive attempt to create a unified Europe where a central authority would control the fisc. As I said, it didn't work out that way, and now the Euro is in deep doo-doo.
Ah I see; you meant what they really were trying to do instead of what they did do.
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The basic idea of a free trading zone is cool, the idea of a federal union is not. We are far too diverse in nationality, types, culture, expectations and mores. Britain, like Germany perhaps, signs up to something and expects it to stick; the others are far more laid back. They sign up to everything but know all along that they are jolly well going to do exactly as they please. You have but to live in southern Europe for a while to understand this and to respect it. Yes, respect it. It is far more realistic and once you accept that that's how everything is going to pan out, nothing surprises anymore and it's business as usual.
Domestic housekeeping glitches aside, look at NATO right now. Need more be said?
I don't know why any of this comes as a surprise to the fans of a European Union. They need but look across the water to see that, from a European perspective, there is no such thing as an American. There are Dutch Americans, German Americans, lots of Irish Americans, Afro Americans, Italian Americans and so on, but the only ones that seem happy to be plain Americans appear to live in reservations. Or so it seems to me here. But I could be wrong, and they be even more fragmented by tribe than that! Hell, much of Britain wants to break away into tiny fragmments and Italy and Spain were ever thus, despite politicians saying otherwise, and parts of southern France still harbour a dream of being part of Cataluña. Most of us need a federal state of Europe about as much as Tibet does China!
Rob C
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Ah I see; you meant what they really were trying to do instead of what they did do.
Harri, It's been pretty clear all along that what the European Union people wanted to do was eliminate the sovereignty of its various members and create a European government run by unelected bureaucrats. If that's what you mean by 'what they really were trying to do', then you're right. That's what I meant.
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I don't know why any of this comes as a surprise to the fans of a European Union. They need but look across the water to see that, from a European perspective, there is no such thing as an American. There are Dutch Americans, German Americans, lots of Irish Americans, Afro Americans, Italian Americans and so on, but the only ones that seem happy to be plain Americans appear to live in reservations. Or so it seems to me here. But I could be wrong...
Rob, That's an illusion that's been created by our "progressive" publications, all of which are part of the "establishment" that lives on our east coast and our Left coast. But in flyover country, the bulk of the US between east and Left coasts, people mostly are just plain Americans. Yes, some are black, red or yellow (in skin color) some are of Scandinavian extraction, some have parents who came here from the low countries, some are of German extraction, and, as you point out, lots of them are of Irish extraction. Some are mongrels like me with Welsh, Irish, English, and a bit of American Indian in their genes. But most of them don't call themselves German-Americans, Irish-Americans, Finnish-Americans, etc., but, simply Americans. Our "progressive" publications insist on using the racist term "African-American," but most of the black people I know think of themselves as Americans. If anybody gets us pissed off enough, they find that out in a hurry, as did The Germans, the Japanese, the Italians and the Taliban, to name just a few.
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Rob, That's an illusion that's been created by our "progressive" publications, all of which are part of the "establishment" that lives on our east coast and our Left coast. But in flyover country, the bulk of the US between east and Left coasts, people mostly are just plain Americans. Yes, some are black, red or yellow (in skin color) some are of Scandinavian extraction, some have parents who came here from the low countries, some are of German extraction, and, as you point out, lots of them are of Irish extraction. Some are mongrels like me with Welsh, Irish, English, and a bit of American Indian in their genes. But most of them don't call themselves German-Americans, Irish-Americans, Finnish-Americans, etc., but, simply Americans. Our "progressive" publications insist on using the racist term "African-American," but most of the black people I know think of themselves as Americans. If anybody gets us pissed off enough, they find that out in a hurry, as did The Germans, the Japanese, the Italians and the Taliban, to name just a few.
That could be the case in mid-West, but I lived in Virginia for four years and have been from Boston to Miami on East coast, and I've met one (1) Caucasian who called himself an "American;" everyone else identifies themselves hyphenated.
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That could be the case in mid-West, but I lived in Virginia for four years and have been from Boston to Miami on East coast, and I've met one (1) Caucasian who called himself an "American;" everyone else identifies themselves hyphenated.
Ah... the perils of anecdotal evidence.
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Perhaps what they really had in mind in the beginning was a United States of Europe. They always deny this and maintain all they were trying to to was create one of the world's most powerful trading blocks - trade, not political union, being the critical point all along.
Meanwhile, here's a little factoid for you all:
A QUARTER of a million people have nothing left to live on once they have paid mortgage and electricity bills, according to a new survey which reveals the true extent of the hardship imposed on households by the recession.
And another 210,000 people are so hard-up that their income does not even cover their essential bills for heat and the cost of the home, research commissioned by the Irish League of Credit Unions shows.
Another three-quarters of a million people have on average just €70 left each month after paying essential bills, the iReach survey conducted for the Irish League of Credit Unions shows.
The research, conducted to see how much disposable income households have, found that a large number -- 428,000 -- feel there is no future for their family in this country.
Family incomes have been hit by tax changes, higher utility bills and transport costs, the research found.
Most people regard their mortgage as their most important bill, followed by electricity and gas and then groceries.
Car costs, loan repayments, credit cards and health insurance were all ranked at a similar level of importance.
The survey, conducted among 1,000 adults, found that 245,000 adults have nothing left to live on after they have paid their mortgage and utility bills.
- Irish Independent.[/b]
(I'm back to reading the papers again
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Car costs, loan repayments, credit cards and health insurance were all ranked at a similar level of importance.
The survey, conducted among 1,000 adults, found that 245,000 adults have nothing left to live on after they have paid their mortgage and utility bills.[/b][/i]
- Irish Independent.[/b]
(I'm back to reading the papers again
There's something Irish about those figures, all right!
;-)
Rob C
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Ah... the perils of anecdotal evidence.
But Slobodan, who else has factual understanding based on experience?
You must know better than I that figures alone can be made to prove any angle you may select, but that experience tells you its own story which may differ from the propaganda, should that be what it is.
Rob C
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That could be the case in mid-West, but I lived in Virginia for four years and have been from Boston to Miami on East coast, and I've met one (1) Caucasian who called himself an "American;" everyone else identifies themselves hyphenated.
Exactly, Harri. On the east coast and Left coast that's what you'll find. But in the heartland it's different. And the east coast and Left coast are losing their most productive people at an ever increasing rate -- people who identify themselves as Americans instead of as hyphenated Americans. Those folks are moving to places like Colorado, Texas, etc. It's one reason the east and Left coast states are in an increasingly disastrous financial condition.
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There's something Irish about those figures, all right!
Ah Rob.don't be like that - there's only so much we can take at this stage.Sample polling can be very accurate, no matter how it sounds.
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Perhaps what they really had in mind in the beginning was a United States of Europe.
Seamus, Is there any doubt that's what they had in mind -- with themselves in charge?
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Ah... the perils of anecdotal evidence.
Not perils - I responded with (useless) anecdotal evidence to counterpoint the (useless) anecdotal evidence given.
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But Slobodan, who else has factual understanding based on experience?
You must know better than I that figures alone can be made to prove any angle you may select, but that experience tells you its own story which may differ from the propaganda, should that be what it is.
Rob C
Rob, although separated by different sentences and paragraphs, it appears that you are saying that experience tells you its own story (true), which provides for a factual understanding (not necessarily true). It might just as well be yet another example of not being able to see the wood from the trees.
Coincidentally, as I was writing this, Harri (feppe) responded to my post with a qualifier "useless" (for anecdotal evidence), which is exactly what I had in mind as "perils".
Eye-witness accounts are notoriously unreliable (proven in numerous studies... and Russ, if you insist, I will cite them). Personal experiences often are prone to what is known as "availability bias", i.e., a tendency in decision making to give greater (and undue) weight to facts available to us.
I've spent 27 years working and living with Americans, in their government bodies, blue-chip corporations, business schools, suburbs, downtowns, abroad and here (in the U.S.), and I have NEVER, EVER met a hyphenated American (i.e., someone who would introduce themselves as such). Ooops, scratch that.. I did meet one, though indirectly, on TV, the "truck stop-restroom fun" governor, who started his resignation speech introducing himself as a gay-American.
But I did meet people (e.g. my next-door neighbor) with strong opposite feelings, who would passionately deny they are anything but American, i.e., not Irish, not Irish-American, but simply American. He is a second-generation immigrant, but it was his parents who, immediately upon immigrating, instilled that in him.
America is an immigrant country. America is also a self-selected country, in the sense that people who came here were not selected for immigration by anybody else but themselves. And they did so precisely because they wanted to become Americans and already shared and admired common values this nation has. Freedom and opportunity, above all. As much as they might occasionally be, or appear so, trivialized, ridiculed, trite, cynical, reduced, trampled on, etc. these are the very basic values people still hold dear and come here for.
But I gladly admit that the above is yet another useless anecdotal evidence.
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My father, an immigrant himself, used to distinguish between immigrants and those born here as "Americans by choice rather than by accident." ;)
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Ah Rob.don't be like that - there's only so much we can take at this stage.Sample polling can be very accurate, no matter how it sounds.
Seamus - I'm not at all sure if you took my point, or whether you did take it and are pretending that you didn't so that I'd feel guilty of something I didn't actually do; womed used to do that to me... But to clarify, if only for myself: you ask 1000 people and they speak for 245,000? That's all towards which I meant to poke a wry question mark.
;-)
Rob C
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Regarding those who moved to America and whether from choice or out of desperation: I think a helluva lot of Jews moved Stateside from Europe prior to '39... Considering so many left behind them businesses, property and a lot of artworks, I can't really see there was a huge amount of choice going down. Escape yes, but choice indicates another sort of concept for me. Take a trip a couple of hundred years back in time and the new settlers were far from all going over with songs of joy on their lips. Forced departures and banishment from Europe and Africa were no rare thing. Australia enjoyed a partly similar happy influx of new settlers.
Maybe it's possible to choose a splendid moment when choice was indeed free, either by dint of fortune or timing, but I'd hardly imagine that applied to the majority.
And then, when free choice did become a reality, the curtains were already drawn. Anecdotal again, but a successful member of my own family flirted with the idea of going over to live and run his business after having spent several holidays with another relative working on contract for IBM, I think, in Boston; the requirements for anybody going over to settle and run a business were amazing: employment had to be guaranteed for a string of American people... Now, don't get me wrong: I applaud the attitude. We should embrace similar common sense in the UK.
Now, I sometimes think it would be a fun thing to go over to America and look around the place in freer mode than I ever did on shoots; but, having an existing heart problem, insurance prevents. Yep, freedom is a strange concept; another anecdotal example, but I guarantee its truth and negative value.
Rob C
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Rob, there are 190+ countries in this world to choose from to immigrate to, yet the overwhelming majority keep choosing the U.S. Maybe being the only country in the world that has a "pursuit of happiness" in its constitution has something to do with it?
Desperation... escape... forced departures... banishment. But of course! Almost nobody leaves the country they were born, homes they grew up in, language they speak, their extended families and friends, their memories, graveyards, etc. on a pure selfish whim, or for fun. That's the push factor. But there is always a pull factor, something that attracts you to chose namely the U.S. among those 190+ countries. Nobody (but slaves) was forced to come here, as much as they might have been forced to leave their countries of origin.
You mentioned Jews prior to '39. You will also remember the premise of this debate (i.e., hyphenated Americans). Do you really believe that they will be the ones to declare themselves "German-Americans"!?
As for the "curtains already being drawn"... as much as every country has the right to control immigration, this is still the most immigrant-friendly country, at least that I know of. And not only in their laws and regulations, but in the attitude of the "natives" as well. Immigrants will always have a hard time adjusting quickly and being accepted quickly, most of which is simply human nature, but I never felt this welcome (within reason) in any other country, and believe me, I've been in more than a few.
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Rob, there are 190+ countries in this world to choose from to immigrate to, yet the overwhelming majority keep choosing the U.S. Maybe being the only country in the world that has a "pursuit of happiness" in its constitution has something to do with it?
While that was historically the case, not so much anymore, it appears. I'm not too familiar with the figures so following is just quick googling. Comparing US (population 300m, area 10m km2) to EU (population 500m, area 4m km2) would be more appropriate than comparing US to individual countries. A glance at Wikipedia says EU net immigration is 1.8m per year, while US is 1m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration). Also, Italy and Spain have roughly 10% of their population with immigrant status, while US has much lower (http://uspolitics.about.com/od/immigration/l/bl_immigration_population.htm) than that - no idea how that status is defined and whether those figures are comparable, though.
Contrary to your claim, US is extremely difficult to emigrate to legally as a skilled or educated worker. In fairness, emigrating within the developed world is tough no matter which country you choose, except within EU and to Singapore (last time I checked). But you are absolutely right on what's the most welcoming country: US is by far the most welcoming to immigrants, I'm sure even today.
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While that was historically the case, not so much anymore, it appears. I'm not too familiar with the figures so following is just quick googling. Comparing US (population 300m, area 10m km2) to EU (population 500m, area 4m km2) would be more appropriate than comparing US to individual countries. A glance at Wikipedia says EU net immigration is 1.8m per year, while US is 1m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration). Also, Italy and Spain have roughly 10% of their population with immigrant status, while US has much lower (http://uspolitics.about.com/od/immigration/l/bl_immigration_population.htm) than that - no idea how that status is defined and whether those figures are comparable, though.
If you want to use the EU as a whole (a fair point, btw), then it appears that the number of 1.8 million includes internal migration, based on the following sentence in the quoted link: "...Citizens from the European Union make up a growing proportion of immigrants in Spain..." (Hi, Rob!)
Contrary to your claim, US is extremely difficult to emigrate to legally as a skilled or educated worker. In fairness, emigrating within the developed world is tough no matter which country you choose, except within EU and to Singapore (last time I checked). But you are absolutely right on what's the most welcoming country: US is by far the most welcoming to immigrants, I'm sure even today.
I do not know how you define "extremely difficult", but I did just that and did not find it difficult. Yes, there is a process (inevitably bureaucratic), and yes, you have to wait for months, but at least there is a process for skilled workers, an example of which is H1b visa, where the only condition is a college education and a company invitation. At the time I did that, no EU country had anything similar. In all fairness, I could have stayed in Spain illegally, waiting tables (and waiting for an amnesty), but there goes your premise of "educated worker".
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If you want to use the EU as a whole (a fair point, btw), then it appears that the number of 1.8 million includes internal migration, based on the following sentence in the quoted link: "...Citizens from the European Union make up a growing proportion of immigrants in Spain..." (Hi, Rob!)
This study (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-08-098/EN/KS-SF-08-098-EN.PDF)claims more than 1.8m non-EU citizens emigrating to the EU-27 in 2006 - although that number includes movement of those citizens within the Union.
I do not know how you define "extremely difficult", but I did just that and did not find it difficult. Yes, there is a process (inevitably bureaucratic), and yes, you have to wait for months, but at least there is a process for skilled workers, an example of which is H1b visa, where the only condition is a college education and a company invitation. At the time I did that, no EU country had anything similar. In all fairness, I could have stayed in Spain illegally, waiting tables (and waiting for an amnesty), but there goes your premise of "educated worker".
You can't seriously consider H-1B visas to be considered immigration? My definition of immigration is permanent residence, not temporary servitude revokable at the whims of an employer - you'll have to get back to where you came from within weeks.
Pretty much the only ways to emigrate to US is to marry a US citizen, have a highly desirable profession, or invest a cool million in the US economy (euphemism for "buy yourself in") - and latter two are green card, ie. revokable. Even through marriage there's some kind of waiting period of years before you are eligible for citizenship. Oh, and then there's the green card lottery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa), which is so absurd if it was in a movie it'd better be a comedy.
I'm sure it's just as hard as getting into the EU, but again, US is by no standard an easy (western) place to emigrate to legally.
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Harri, I went via H1b to green card, and it is not only possible, but a quite common path. Coincidentally, I also won the green card lottery the same year (though I did not use it), so, again, it is not so absurd. Green card is not generally revokable, unless you commit a crime. And I do not know many countries (if any) that would grant you immediate and irrevocable citizenship. Agreed, not easy, but doable.
I honestly do not know how it was possible for the 1.8 million non-EU citizens to obtain a legal status, as when I was looking into that in 2000 - 2003, I found no legal way. The only other way was to come in on a temporary (tourist) visa, overstay illegally, and then wait for an amnesty. In the short period I was in Spain, there were two or three amnesties (!?), and all our acquaintances with illegal status got their papers, while we, being in the country legally, could not benefit from those amnesties.
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You ask 1000 people and they speak for 245,000? That's all towards which I meant to poke a wry question mark
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Point taken. It's the way of the world now, Rob.
Incidentally, knowing your sense of the incongruous (and others here as well) here's something: there was a fire sale of 'distressed' properties in Dublin yesterday. Over eighty went to auction at knockdown prices. Buyers spilled out onto the street in front of the posh Shelbourne Hotel and had to shout their bids over the heads of the crowds to the auctioneers inside. A total of €15 million was spent in the five-hour auction, which had to be suspended in the first hour because of crowds trying to get in.
The Irish Times reports: 'London auctioneers Allsop put on an impressive show with flashy pink catalogues and nattily dressed young men and women lined up on the podium behind auctioneer Gary Murphy. Irish in name but frightfully English in delivery, he invited bidders to go “another thousand pounds, sorry euro.......By the time the auction got under way at 12.15, the room was packed and there were another hundred or so queuing outside. By lot 9, the auction had to be interrupted when gardaí (police) objected to crowds blocking the footpath. A two-bed apartment in Portlaoise was sold to a bidder on the street for €61,000.......a city centre penthouse, on the market three years ago at €1.3 million, sold for €345,000. It was bought by an Englishman for his daughter who is studying at the College of Surgeons.'
While all this was going on, guess who walked by in the street and took it all in? Irony of ironies, none other than Mr. Ajai Chopra, the IMF’s Deputy European Director and Head of Mission for Ireland, part of the troika of the International Monetary Fund, European Central Bank and European Union who were in town doing the sums for the government.
You couldn't make it up!
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Incidentally, knowing your sense of the incongruous (and others here as well) here's something: there was a fire sale of 'distressed' properties in Dublin yesterday...
Not sure what the point of that was - sounds normal for auctions after a property bubble, and I don't see any irony in the IMF Director happening to walk by, or even visit the auction. It's not like the IMF crashed property values.
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Oh, well, I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. But it made a great street shot. I wish I'd been there to get it.
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Slobodan
"...Citizens from the European Union make up a growing proportion of immigrants in Spain..." (Hi, Rob!)
Yes, but there's a difference: I'm a totally benign immigrant; my contribution is a net plus to the community since my money come in from outside but gets spent here...
I did tell you about the problems facing my family member, a fully qualified FRICS running his own successful company in Britain, whose experience in investigating working in the States showed a far from embracing welcome was on its way; if the wealthy pros have problems...
However, just in case anyone thinks I'm anti-US I include here a shot of my newly tarted-up buggy that'll be thirteen in July. I finally couldn't bear to part with it after I bought the new Fiesta. I think the relevance of the image is self-explanatory.
;-)
Rob C
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Rob,
My reading of your photo is that you really wish you were running an "escort service" in Hollywood. Right? ;)
Eric
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Rob,
My reading of your photo is that you really wish you were running an "escort service" in Hollywood. Right? ;)
Eric
Running or using? ;)
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Oh cruelty, thy name is Legion!
But at least I'd be banging on sixteen valves, which is better than the rather miserable ones in my vascular system...
;-)
Rob C
PS I'd imagined you might have picked up on the 'any more' which, in the context of now, might have been better as 'anymore' but as that wasn't - oh, never mind, it doesn't matter at all.
However, I've just returned from shooting some images for a painter friend whose new show has opened tonight in Pollensa. It isn't business for me, just something he can pop into his website when he finally gets it together. But the funny thing is this: as I was having fun playing pap around the place, this lady thrust her child at me and stated that I was to shoot him. I refrained from the obvious comment, mainly because I hadn't yet thought of it, but when she continued to inform me that she'd bought more of my friend's pictures than anyone else there I felt really pìssed off. The cheek! I was about to tell her that I wasn't the young man from ¡Hola! magazine, but that would have been two blindingly obvious facts within the same sentence, so I didn't say that either. What I did say, however, was that I wasn't an official snapper and that were her son female and eighteen years old, it would have been very different. She gazed at me. The mother, not the fantasy daughter.
One meets such strange people in this little town. We all think that.