Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: DeeJay on April 06, 2011, 05:02:16 am
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Hi all,
Wondering what, in your opinion, is the nicest system in terms of Bokeh. Any lenses in particular?
It's a general question I know but thought I'd put it out there and see.
Thanks,
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contax 645.
fastest mf glass, beautiful bokeh.
80mm f2, 140mm f2.8, 210mm f4.
all great lenses.
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Hasselblad + HC 210 mm
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Rollei 6000/Hy6/Afi platform for the fast and sharp glass. That's one of the reasons I went with the platform in the first place, e.g. 50mm f2.8, 80mm f2, 110mm f2, 180mm f2.8
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Hasselblad + HC 2.2/100
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if you are not worrying about cost
absolute best bokeh is if you get a MF camera with focal shutter plane
then use Movie lenses
I used to do that with Mamiya, can no linger do with my Hass and I miss that bokeh
the next best thing should be the Contax, Rollei, and Hass V system
Mamiya is harsh even though there is some fast lens (fast doesnt always mean good bokeh)
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Hopefully Brad will chime in because over the last two years I think he's tried all the different platforms and will undoubtably have some good thoughts.
I myself prefer the schneider glass available for the Rollei 6000 series and Hy6/AFi. Their fast optics are the 50/2.8 60/35, 80/2, 180/2.8 and 300/4 but most of the schneider glass draws beautifully with smoothe bokeh. The zeiss standout for the system is the 110/2 which is truly a wondeful optic. Lot's of older zeiss designs are available for the rollei platform and I think many of these zeiss lenses were made to fit the hasselblad and contax platforms too. Lot's of people like the zeiss look however I find them to look too much like an old photograph instead of real life because they always seem to draw a chromatic doublet on hard edges in the OOF or bokeh. Also there seems to be more specular flare and distortion in the zeiss glass. Anyhow, long story short I think the best glass is the schneider stuff for the Rollei and I also happen to think the cameras are the most advanced as well. People will say that its a dead end, but that's what I think about the contax. I just bought a new AFi body last week from the factory and they just introduced two new lenses. You can't do that with contax.
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Hi Eric,
What new hy6 lenses?
This is great news.
Best,
Mitchell
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Mitchell,
They've announced the 120 and 150 apogens in both AF and non AF versions and I think all but the 150 AF version are available now for purchase. My understanding is that more new stuff is in the works. I'm waiting for the lupe finder base so I can use the magnifying finder.
Eric
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Can I ask how this Leaf/Sinar system compares to the Hasselblad and Phase system?
Besides the lenses. What advantages does the system have?
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Hang on! Contax has the "fastest MF glass"? No.
Rollei 6000/Hy6/Afi has the fastest, then? Closer, but still No.
Hasselblad V or H? Don't make me laugh!
Let's at least keep the factual stuff straight - we can argue about the bokeh and rendering, but not the f-stops.
Mamiya 645 manual focus lenses are the fastest range of MF glass.
There is only 1 lens of Rollei 6000/Hy6/Afi (110/2), 1 lens of Hasselblad V (110/2 for the F series), and 1 lens of Hasselblad H (100/2.2) which is faster than the M645 nearest equivalent. There are 0 lenses of Contax that are faster. And let's not forget the Pentax 645 - also 0 lenses that are faster.
Mamiya has at least 3 faster lenses than any of these systems (200/2.8, 300/2.8 and 500/4.5 APOs). Or 4 lenses, if you are pedantic about the 80/1.9 being faster than the 80/2 of the Contax and Rollei!
Within system to system comparisons, you also find others: like the 55/2.8 of Mamiya vs. the slower 55/3.5 of Contax.
You can go all the way from 45mm to 300mm with the Mamiya, never getting slower than f2.8.
45/2.8, 55/2.8, 70/2.8, 80/1.9 and 80/2.8, 110/2.8, 150/2.8, 200/2.8, 300/2.8.
Plus with the focal plane shutter and short registration distance, the Mamiya (and the Contax and Pentax, but not the Rolleis or Hasselblads) can also mount nice fast gems like the 120/2.8, 180/2.8 and 300/4 from Zeiss Jena (stunning bokeh on the latter 2 Sonnars, BTW), the 105/2.4 and 165/2.8 from the Pentax 67, etc.
As you can tell, this is a topic of some considerable importance to me - as a MF astrophotographer! M-U-S-T H-A-V-E M-O-R-E P-H-O-T-O-N-S !!
Ray
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Don't forget Hasselblad 300, 2,8!!! Will make the Mamiya 300 look like a toy.
... and he bokeh is the best you will ever see.
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Don't forget Hasselblad 300, 2,8!!!
Ah, yes I forgot that one. Doesn't up the Hasselblad score enough to make a difference overall, though.
Will make the Mamiya 300 look like a toy.
... and he bokeh is the best you will ever see.
Really? You have proof of both these claims?
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Yeah Ray that's true there are some nice fast Mamiya lenses.
But the topic was best MF system and lenses for bokeh not fastest! :D
All joking aside there are some nice mamiya lenses, however I don't find them as pleasing as the schneider in terms of bokeh or general character. Plus I think mamiya lenses trade off sharpness for distortion and are more prone to flare. And let's not get started on the mamiya 645 camera....
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Exactly people confuse bokeh with fast lens
in medium format f2.8 and f4 is often fast enough to give a shallow DOF, the problem is how pleasing is the bokeh
I have had Mamiya and the problem is that they are sharp, but thats about it
dont like their camera either, feels much cheaper than my Nikon (not to mention my Hass)
I think Rollei does have the best lens lineup and you are very safe with their Schneider and Zeiss optics
but the thing is their future does remain unclear (not as dead as the Contax though)
not many AF lenses (at the moment)
and I heard many problems with the fast optics with shutter, like the 110mm f2 shutter and aperture dont work properly from time to time
Contax has the next best lens lineup with AF
but dead system, you might need to get a few backup copies
Hasselblad V has Zeiss optics but not fast (sure you can go with the focal plane shutter and their lenses are wonderful, but relatively not a reliable system)
Hasselblad H has probably the most established system, best built overall, lens are somewhat average though, I heard good things about their 100mm f2.2 but I have yet to own/try one, their 150mm isnt so good (that I already sold)
I think the problem is that the digital MF sector isnt very well established a the moment
every system has their pros and cons, unlike the 135 where Canon and Nikon are so well established none of them have very strong cons
perhaps in a few more years things will get better
but at the moment
in terms of lens lineup, and bokeh
Rollei is the best
or get the Mamiya and just dont use their lenses (you can fit Hasselblad on it, I even used to use Movie lenses like Cooke and Kinoptik on it and they were great)
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These are the best lenses I've used:
1. 35mm: Contax 645
2. 40mm: Hasselblad V IF
3. 50mm: Hasselblad V FLE.
4. 60mm: Hasselblad V
5: 80mm: Contax 645
6. 100mm: Hasselblad V
7. 120mm: Contax 645
8: 180mm: Hasselblad V
9: 350mm: Hasselblad V superchromatic
All above lenses can be adapted to Contax 645, but not as convenient.
Some Fuji GX680 lenses are good too, if properly handled with the perspective control.
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Hi, DeeJay,
First, I must say that I do not have enough experience with technical cameras in medium format to be able to compare bokeh produced by large format lenses to the mix of medium format digital SLR's I have owned. If you are interested in technical medium format cameras, I would recommend adding these to the mix of lenses you will want to test.
For bokeh, I think you will find that the Rollei's Schneider program will provide the highest consistent quality. Note that I am not talking about sharpness, but quality of bokeh, with smooth and relatively feature-free circles of confusion.
Contax' Zeiss lens program generally delivered excellent bokeh as well, placing second to the above.
The hardest lenses for me to qualify was the Phamiya lenses. Some were spectacularly sharp (eg. 80), but did not impress me with the quality of the rendering--they did render a somewhat clinical rendering. Very subjective stuff, so be sure to try these lenses yourself. Overall I would place these next in the ranked list.
Finally, neither the H or the V systems provide competitive bokeh unless the lenses in question are used wide open. Once stopped down, the V and H are not particularly smooth, with 5- and 6-bladed apertures providing distinctively shaped polygons of confusion. Wide open, I would recommend V bokeh over H, stopped down, the reverse. But because of their stopped-down performance, I would place these last on the list of systems I've owned for this particular attribute.
I have not owned a Pentax, Bronica or Fuji GX680, so I cannot comment on these.
These are my ranked opinions of bokeh based on the systems that I have owned. Note that if you had asked for sharpness, reliability, availability, value or some other quality, the order would almost certainly change, so please do not misinterpret these comments and rankings to be anything other than one person's subjective rankings based on (careful) observations of bokeh quality.
Hope that is helpful,
-Brad
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there was a very major point just mentioned above
bokeh is a very subjective thing
although in general pleasing bokeh means smooth bokeh
some people do like bokeh that is less blur and shows the outline
and on some very old lenses there are even swirl or radiating bokeh
but in general, in modern production, Schneider and Zeiss are safe
although the 5 blade aperture on the Hass V means you get an odd shape bokeh
some people liked the Rollei's 3 Blades aperture, again its a matter of preference
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Yes, this is the problem. The quality of the OOF transition and the nature of specular OOF highlights depends not only on the lens make and design, but also what aperture that you are using it at. And, these days, it also depends on the resolution of the sensor array, too.
My old Zeiss 'C' 250mm Sonnar is nothing special most of the time, but used wide-open (at f5.6) the OOF areas are quite magical.
John
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Thanks for all your input. I'm considering an IQ180 so wanting to review systems. Find the Phamiya particularly uninspiring and I'm not a major fan of their lenses. ove the Contax but the 125th second flash sync is a killer. Don't like the H Series. Have been using a V System very happily with a P65 but as others have said it has an aperture that isn't round so thought I'd investigate other options. I have heard wonders about Rollei.
New lenses for Afi? does that mean they are still making/supporting the bodies? Does anyone use the Rollei 6008AF?
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New lenses for Afi, does that mean they are still making/supporting the bodies? Does anyone use the Rollei 6008AF?
Yes and yes, I use the 6008AF. Here's a sample of the bokeh possible with that system:
(http://moskvamodels.com/images/2633.jpg)
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Yes and yes, I use the 6008AF. Here's a sample of the bokeh possible with that system:
Graham,
Which lens?
Thanks, Joris.
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Graham,
Which lens?
110mm f2
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Graham, Nice image.
Is there anything about the 6008AF that bothers you? It seems like a very well designed system and I've heard people rave about it. It's features and ergonomics seem pretty amazing. Is there anything about the system that is a problem for you?
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I really love, what RZ67 with 110\2.8 can do:
(http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo265/itsskin/MMFC6628-Edit-2.jpg)
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Graham, Nice image.
Is there anything about the 6008AF that bothers you? It seems like a very well designed system and I've heard people rave about it. It's features and ergonomics seem pretty amazing. Is there anything about the system that is a problem for you?
As a digital solution, yes. The flash sync cable from camera body to digital back is a pain. And the lack of EXIF, etc. The original battery system is not good either but can easily be upgraded (see http://www.graham-mitchell.com/blog/?p=72 ). Then there's the issue of having nowhere to rent lenses or accessories for the system, so you need to own everything. It's not very weather-proof either. In a perfect world there would be just one rectilinear lens wider than the excellent 40mm. (Maybe the long talked-about 35mm will make it to production some day.)
Apart from that, I love the fast and sharp lenses with really solid smooth manual focus operation, extension rings, viewfinder options, rotating back between portrait and landscape rather than rotating camera, up to 1/1000th flash sync, remote control with mirror release
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why does the 1/125 flash sync bother you so much
if you can afford the top back, you should be able to afford the top flash/strobe (Broncolor, etc)
with strong enough flash, 1/125 and 1/500 flash sync is a very minor difference (not that I found 1/800 any useful on my Hass H3)
if you get the mamiya and ignore their lens entirely, then you might as well skip that system and think of something else
if flash sync means so much to you, get the Hass H, it isnt really THAT bad, I am a big bokeh guy but I still use it
I also believe the AFi is good overall, but still, if you are spending that much money, I rather get a system with reliable support and future
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why does the 1/125 flash sync bother you so much
if you can afford the top back, you should be able to afford the top flash/strobe (Broncolor, etc)
The flash equipment is not the issue - if you want to use any flash whatsoever in a photo and you are restricted to 1/125 then clearly some shots are not going to be possible. I was shooting at 1/500 a lot yesterday in the sun, just to get the correct exposure at in bright sun at f2-f2.8. If I wanted to add any flash to that image, it would not have been possible with a camera with 1/125 flash sync.
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some people liked the Rollei's 3 Blades aperture, again its a matter of preference
Just to add a bit to your post and correct one thing. Definitely bokeh is subjective and each will have their own preference. IMHO the leica and zeiss rendering of hard edges as doublets really makes the image a photo visually. Meaning the viewer knows its a photo and not an illusion just like a tattoo on a female model forces the viewer to read the time as current. That's why I prefer the schneider (and the zeiss 110/2 that Graham posted a shot from which does a lot less of it than other zeiss). And as far as I know, the only rollei lenses with 3 blade apertures were for 35mm format.
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I kinda get your point
but you can step down, lower the ISO to 50
or use a ND filter to retain the aperture (thats when the very strong flash comes in)
I mean there are ways to get around it, given the Contax is almost perfect in all the other ways
and leaf shutter lens rarely gets to f2 (only Rollei does)
f2.8 is also rare, most starts at f3.2-f4 anyway
The flash equipment is not the issue - if you want to use any flash whatsoever in a photo and you are restricted to 1/125 then clearly some shots are not going to be possible. I was shooting at 1/500 a lot yesterday in the sun, just to get the correct exposure at in bright sun at f2-f2.8. If I wanted to add any flash to that image, it would not have been possible with a camera with 1/125 flash sync.
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yes I didnt make it clear
the only 3 blades lens were the Rollei 35mm and C mount movie lens by Zeiss Jena
Just to add a bit to your post and correct one thing. Definitely bokeh is subjective and each will have their own preference. IMHO the leica and zeiss rendering of hard edges as doublets really makes the image a photo visually. Meaning the viewer knows its a photo and not an illusion just like a tattoo on a female model forces the viewer to read the time as current. That's why I prefer the schneider (and the zeiss 110/2 that Graham posted a shot from which does a lot less of it than other zeiss). And as far as I know, the only rollei lenses with 3 blade apertures were for 35mm format.
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I kinda get your point
but you can step down, lower the ISO to 50
or use a ND filter to retain the aperture (thats when the very strong flash comes in)
You can use an ND to lower shutter speed, but if a model is jumping around, that's probably a bad idea too. Nothing beats having flash sync at all speeds.
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why does the 1/125 flash sync bother you so much
if you can afford the top back, you should be able to afford the top flash/strobe (Broncolor, etc)
with strong enough flash, 1/125 and 1/500 flash sync is a very minor difference (not that I found 1/800 any useful on my Hass H3)
if you get the mamiya and ignore their lens entirely, then you might as well skip that system and think of something else
if flash sync means so much to you, get the Hass H, it isnt really THAT bad, I am a big bokeh guy but I still use it
I also believe the AFi is good overall, but still, if you are spending that much money, I rather get a system with reliable support and future
Flash sync is really important for some kinds of shooting such where the model or subject is moving. A lot of strobes have pretty slow durations at high power and many people are using HMI or hot lights now so you can't always use the flash to stop the action. Sync speed will only get more important as more jobs incorporate video too. The Rollei 6008AF and Hy6/AFi will do 1/500 or 1/1000 depending on the lens.
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New lenses for Afi? does that mean they are still making/supporting the bodies? Does anyone use the Rollei 6008AF?
Yes and yes, I use the 6008AF. Here's a sample of the bokeh possible with that system:
Slight clarification--it is not clear whether new bodies are being made or simply sold from existing stock. A small point until/unless stock runs out--because it is not clear whether DHW retains the rights to continue manufacturing the body or not. My feeling is that none of this really matters, but I wanted you to be aware so you would be able to decide for yourself.
With that being said, new lenses are being developed and made for the system and the bodies and lenses are indeed still supported.
Thanks for all your input. I'm considering an IQ180 so wanting to review systems. Find the Phamiya particularly uninspiring and I'm not a major fan of their lenses. ove the Contax but the 125th second flash sync is a killer. Don't like the H Series. Have been using a V System very happily with a P65 but as others have said it has an aperture that isn't round so thought I'd investigate other options. I have heard wonders about Rollei.
Interesting, as I arrived at exactly the same conclusions regarding the Phamiya system, the H, the V and the Contax. I liked the V system so much I ended up on it twice (second time with a 203FE for faster glass and CFV-39 to eliminate the sync cable). But I do tend to use longer lenses and natural (continuous) light, and shutter vibration from focal-plane shutter cameras turned out to be problematic. This is the main reason why I ended up leaving the Contax and the 203FE. In your case, it sounds like you may be using strobe, so this wouldn't be an issue.
Between the two (V and Contax), I'd recommend the Contax (no sync cable, smoother bokeh, AF, wider wide angle), plus an adapter for the V lenses you can't live without (eg. 110/2), assuming you can live with the slow flash sync, and aren't a waist-level finder shooter shooting in portrait orientation.
Overall, though, it does seem that a Rollei system would be best suited to cover your needs, both for bokeh and sync speed.
Additional info: IQ180 is not available in any Rollei mount -- If you wanted 80MP in Rollei, you would have to pick up an Aptus-II 12 (and an AFi/Hy6--the Aptus is not available in 6008 mount).
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As a digital solution, yes. The flash sync cable from camera body to digital back is a pain. And the lack of EXIF, etc. The original battery system is not good either but can easily be upgraded (see http://www.graham-mitchell.com/blog/?p=72 ). Then there's the issue of having nowhere to rent lenses or accessories for the system, so you need to own everything. It's not very weather-proof either. In a perfect world there would be just one rectilinear lens wider than the excellent 40mm. (Maybe the long talked-about 35mm will make it to production some day.)
Apart from that, I love the fast and sharp lenses with really solid smooth manual focus operation, extension rings, viewfinder options, rotating back between portrait and landscape rather than rotating camera, up to 1/1000th flash sync, remote control with mirror release
Thanks Graham,
Mostly the issues I have with the V System too but the main thing I worry about is availability while in other countries if something breaks.
why does the 1/125 flash sync bother you so much
if you can afford the top back, you should be able to afford the top flash/strobe (Broncolor, etc)
with strong enough flash, 1/125 and 1/500 flash sync is a very minor difference (not that I found 1/800 any useful on my Hass H3)
if you get the mamiya and ignore their lens entirely, then you might as well skip that system and think of something else
if flash sync means so much to you, get the Hass H, it isnt really THAT bad, I am a big bokeh guy but I still use it
I also believe the AFi is good overall, but still, if you are spending that much money, I rather get a system with reliable support and future
Flash sync has nothing to do with expensive flash gear, which I use, when you need to shoot wide open. Shooting with ND filters on a back that requires critical focus and on fast paced action and shooting is not something that ever works. Shame, I like the Contax, it's probably the best design since the Blads but the flash sync makes it a non contender and I think it's probably one of the contributing factors to the demise of the camera and company. A camera aimed at professionals which is limited like that is pointless and I know it was a deal breaker for many people who would have migrated to the system.
I don't like the Hasselblad H. Would never swap the V System for it.
Yes and yes, I use the 6008AF. Here's a sample of the bokeh possible with that system:
Slight clarification--it is not clear whether new bodies are being made or simply sold from existing stock. A small point until/unless stock runs out--because it is not clear whether DHW retains the rights to continue manufacturing the body or not. My feeling is that none of this really matters, but I wanted you to be aware so you would be able to decide for yourself.
With that being said, new lenses are being developed and made for the system and the bodies and lenses are indeed still supported.
Interesting, as I arrived at exactly the same conclusions regarding the Phamiya system, the H, the V and the Contax. I liked the V system so much I ended up on it twice (second time with a 203FE for faster glass and CFV-39 to eliminate the sync cable). But I do tend to use longer lenses and natural (continuous) light, and shutter vibration from focal-plane shutter cameras turned out to be problematic. This is the main reason why I ended up leaving the Contax and the 203FE. In your case, it sounds like you may be using strobe, so this wouldn't be an issue.
Between the two (V and Contax), I'd recommend the Contax (no sync cable, smoother bokeh, AF, wider wide angle), plus an adapter for the V lenses you can't live without (eg. 110/2), assuming you can live with the slow flash sync, and aren't a waist-level finder shooter shooting in portrait orientation.
Overall, though, it does seem that a Rollei system would be best suited to cover your needs, both for bokeh and sync speed.
Additional info: IQ180 is not available in any Rollei mount -- If you wanted 80MP in Rollei, you would have to pick up an Aptus-II 12 (and an AFi/Hy6--the Aptus is not available in 6008 mount).
Thanks - I thought I had read that it was available in the Rollei mount. Well that solves that one. I think I'm going to stick with my V System as the Contax is a no go for me sadly.
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if you are not worrying about cost
absolute best bokeh is if you get a MF camera with focal shutter plane
then use Movie lenses
I used to do that with Mamiya, can no linger do with my Hass and I miss that bokeh
the next best thing should be the Contax, Rollei, and Hass V system
Mamiya is harsh even though there is some fast lens (fast doesnt always mean good bokeh)
what movie lens can cover 645??
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The motion lens idea sounds interesting. Do you need a Focal Plane Shutter?
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What is interesting (to me, anyhow) about this thread is that the discussion has largely centred around MF camera systems that are now defunct (Hasselblad V-System, Contax 645, Rollei 6000), or of uncertain status (the HY6). Hardly anyone has said that, gosh, the ‘Blad HC lenses are fabulous or that the Phase/Mamiya glass is brilliant. Well, perhaps some of them are brilliant, but nobody has said so. I know that it is no use bewailing the past and what might have happened, but it seems to be the very height of irony that we have the most sophisticated digital capture devices ever made (albeit very expensive) with the new 60 and 80 MP backs, but we now have only two remaining current MF camera systems to mount them on. One of which (the Phase) does not qualify as a system at all in terms of finders etc, and the other, the H-System, is closed. So that is hardly a system, either, because you can only use one “film”.
John
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What is interesting (to me, anyhow) about this thread is that the discussion has largely centred around MF camera systems that are now defunct (Hasselblad V-System, Contax 645, Rollei 6000), or of uncertain status (the HY6). Hardly anyone has said that, gosh, the ‘Blad HC lenses are fabulous or that the Phase/Mamiya glass is brilliant. Well, perhaps some of them are brilliant, but nobody has said so. I know that it is no use bewailing the past and what might have happened, but it seems to be the very height of irony that we have the most sophisticated digital capture devices ever made (albeit very expensive) with the new 60 and 80 MP backs, but we now have only two remaining current MF camera systems to mount them on. One of which (the Phase) does not qualify as a system at all in terms of finders etc, and the other, the H-System, is closed. So that is hardly a system, either, because you can only use one “film”.
John
Yes, I agree John. It's stranger than fiction.
I put off MFD for so long because I always got the impression that the Phamiya was a temporary system while they got a design (like the Leaf AFi) sorted themselves. I still shoot with, and think the best option is the the Bad V system and it shows how good the design really was/is. I just wish Hasselblad chose to take a similar route with the H Series rather than that uninspiring plastique heap of junque (sorry no mean to offend anyone that likes or uses it) that is the H Series. That Phamiya, even worse IMO. I think apart from the Rollei 6000 and the Contax, modern camera MF design got lost somehow. Trying to squeeze in too many bells and whistles. If Contax had made a more basic leaf shutter system, I believe it would have been the most successful and as long lasting design as the Blad V. It's a shame. Have to say even the Rollei Hy6, which is a well featured camera I still find quite sterile, clinical, uninteresting, uninspiring. And that rubberised grip makes it look a bit too Fisher Price for my liking. And while I would sill use it, it's future is too uncertain to entertain the investment at this stage. I don't care what anyone says that how a camera looks and feels doesn't make a difference. i really think it does and those Blad V's just make you feel inspired somehow. IMO of corse.
I do wonder though - it seems now there is alot more understanding about the benefits of big sensors. Where as not that long ago I think people thought that dSLR was as good as MFD or in future will be. But the physics of the bigger chip mean that a dSLR won't be able to compete. Prices are coming down too, take a look at the H4D31 for example. So there seems to be a shift to MFD in terms of popular opinion at the moment so i wonder that that extra interest and demand will show us some new advancements in MFD and an ideal system might materialize soon. Fingers crossed.
In the meantime I'm happy with my V Series 555. I wish someone could take that platform and just tweak it ever so slightly and bring it into the modern age.
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In the meantime I'm happy with my V Series 555. I wish someone could take that platform and just tweak it ever so slightly and bring it into the modern age.
Well, that platform was there with the 203FE. It was a strategic decision by the Hass management of the time not to develop that camera (which was backwards compatible with all the existing lenses, finders and magazines) but to join forces with Fuji and produce the H-system. It's another big what-if of camera history.
John
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In the meantime I'm happy with my V Series 555. I wish someone could take that platform and just tweak it ever so slightly and bring it into the modern age.
I'm with you on that one!
Back in the days of film I had switched over to using Rollei 6006/8s and enjoyed using them. I only went back to V series as I couldn't mount a lightphase on the Rollei.
However, I've enjoyed going back to the simplicity of the V series, although I wish I could reliably use a P1 back on a 200 with the 110 f2.
...although the 5 blade aperture on the Hass V means you get an odd shape bokeh
For me, it's a bonus. I shoot a lot of still life, often with shiny things in the background. It gives things a sparkle which I and my clients like. When I did test drive an H I specifically looked at the difference, but with the H lenses it was just ugly.
But horses for courses...
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Well, that platform was there with the 203FE. It was a strategic decision by the Hass management of the time not to develop that camera (which was backwards compatible with all the existing lenses, finders and magazines) but to join forces with Fuji and produce the H-system. It's another big what-if of camera history.
John
Yup, but more like Why the hell? :)
I'm with you on that one!
Back in the days of film I had switched over to using Rollei 6006/8s and enjoyed using them. I only went back to V series as I couldn't mount a lightphase on the Rollei.
However, I've enjoyed going back to the simplicity of the V series, although I wish I could reliably use a P1 back on a 200 with the 110 f2.
For me, it's a bonus. I shoot a lot of still life, often with shiny things in the background. It gives things a sparkle which I and my clients like. When I did test drive an H I specifically looked at the difference, but with the H lenses it was just ugly.
But horses for courses...
Yeah i do like the Rollei and woud think about it if the IQ backs would fit. But realy I am very happy with the V Series. I would take that any day over the modern POS. If it aint broke...
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what movie lens can cover 645??
a lot
most over 100mm-150mm does cover 645 without much problem
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The motion lens idea sounds interesting. Do you need a Focal Plane Shutter?
yes absolutely no chance with leaf shutter
I looked into the possibility to take out the glasses in some old V lenses and use the shutter and the barrel
but the opening was too small so even if you can fit a lens inside it is automatically stepped down
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Might look into this - can you name some brands or lenses in particular ?
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Yup, but more like Why the hell? :)
It wasn't as if Hasselblad didn't want Zeiss for their H system. So why didn't they do it?
<completely unsubstantiated rumor mongering>
Zeiss may have been unwilling to build AF lenses for Hasselblad, due to some earlier Hasselblad/Zeiss shenanigans involving AF lenses on the V system.
</completely unsubstantiated rumor mongering>
:)
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It wasn't as if Hasselblad didn't want Zeiss for their H system. So why didn't they do it?
<completely unsubstantiated rumor mongering>
Zeiss may have been unwilling to build AF lenses for Hasselblad, due to some earlier Hasselblad/Zeiss shenanigans involving AF lenses on the V system.
</completely unsubstantiated rumor mongering>
:)
[/quote]
I think it's much more likely that Hasselblad wanted to make better money with Fujinon.
The easiest would of course be to keep on working with Zeiss. They allready had a lot of existing
Hasselblad-users begging for more Zeiss.
I would say it could only be profitt-issues that made them go away from Zeiss.
Zeiss have made exelent fast af-lenses for Sinar. A lot better than Hasselblads Fujinon lenses.
But of course more expensive..
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Yeah Ray that's true there are some nice fast Mamiya lenses.
But the topic was best MF system and lenses for bokeh not fastest! :D
Of course it was. Then someone made the factually inaccurate claim that the Contax 645 has the "fastest mf glass", and I was merely countering that, setting the record straight. Sometimes little tangents like that are necessary in a thread - putting out the bush fires of inaccuracy and ignorance before they spread further.
Exactly people confuse bokeh with fast lens
Well, don't count me among those people. I thought I made it very clear when I stated: "we can argue about the bokeh and rendering, but not the f-stops". That good bokeh is not guaranteed by a fast f-stop is clear from that!
Ray
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Might look into this - can you name some brands or lenses in particular ?
Kinoptik, Dallmeyer Super Six, Bausch and Lomb Super Baltar, Cooke Taylor Hobson, Carl Zeiss.....
most of these are no longer in production though you need to find them used
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Hi Ray
wasnt pointing the finger
but there are people out there would believe faster lens give better bokeh
and no matter how hard you try to explain they will go back to their Canon f1.2 and says they are the best (not that they are not good)
Of course it was. Then someone made the factually inaccurate claim that the Contax 645 has the "fastest mf glass", and I was merely countering that, setting the record straight. Sometimes little tangents like that are necessary in a thread - putting out the bush fires of inaccuracy and ignorance before they spread further.
Well, don't count me among those people. I thought I made it very clear when I stated: "we can argue about the bokeh and rendering, but not the f-stops". That good bokeh is not guaranteed by a fast f-stop is clear from that!
Ray
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>> Exactly people confuse bokeh with fast lens
Exactly what is bokeh? Can anyone give a comprehensible definition?
I'm not sure I know, but this is what I see that might be close to what people talked about by "bokeh".
First it's not about the rendering of the out of focus image, or how smooth the out of focus blurring.
what I like about Leica or zeiss's image, when it fits my taste, is the rendering of the in-focus image within the the out of focus background.
It's how the in-focus image smoothly stands out from the rest of the out-of-focus image. When it fits my taste, I can hardly draw the line between the in-focus elements and the out-of-focus elements. They are just integrated as an one image.
Very often I saw the review articles or magazines zooming out the out of focus background, to show how good or bad the bokeh, with no in-focus elements in the context.
Not that they are wrong, as I'm not sure exactly what is right, but something is just missing from the point.
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in fact
Bokeh is about personal preference
it is how the image is rendered
any lens maker would design their lens differently to render differently (both in focus and out of focus)
therefore it has nothing to do with the aperture (of course you still need shallow enough DOF to express the bokeh)
some like smooth bokeh that is all blur
some like bokeh that is, while smooth, still retain the shape
but it is safe to say that people generally dislike harsh bokeh (over-correction)
as for the in focus and out focus rendering
they are in fact interrelated
so you are kinda correct to say you need to see both to decide
I know nothing about the physics of optics but as far as my experience goes, it is easier to make a sharp lens with harsh bokeh (most third party Japanese Lens makers do that, like Sigma or Tamron, most of their lenses are really sharp, sometimes sharper than the original brands, but has ugly bokeh)
whereas it is often difficult to make a sharp lens with smooth bokeh
>> Exactly people confuse bokeh with fast lens
Exactly what is bokeh? Can anyone give a comprehensible definition?
I'm not sure I know, but this is what I see that might be close to what people talked about by "bokeh".
First it's not about the rendering of the out of focus image, or how smooth the out of focus blurring.
what I like about Leica or zeiss's image, when it fits my taste, is the rendering of the in-focus image within the the out of focus background.
It's how the in-focus image smoothly stands out from the rest of the out-of-focus image. When it fits my taste, I can hardly draw the line between the in-focus elements and the out-of-focus elements. They are just integrated as an one image.
Very often I saw the review articles or magazines zooming out the out of focus background, to show how good or bad the bokeh, with no in-focus elements in the context.
Not that they are wrong, as I'm not sure exactly what is right, but something is just missing from the point.
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Exactly what is bokeh? Can anyone give a comprehensible definition?
I'm not sure I know, but this is what I see that might be close to what people talked about by "bokeh".
http://toothwalker.org/optics/bokeh.html (http://toothwalker.org/optics/bokeh.html)
Cheers,
Bart
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Back to the original question-personally I really like what I see from the Leica S2 lenses. (if this is MF?)
I also liked a lot what I saw from the 110/2.0 Zeiss (maybe my favorite for certain subjects) and the 50/80/180mm Schneider lenses.