Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: Dave Gurtcheff on March 26, 2011, 03:21:22 pm

Title: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Dave Gurtcheff on March 26, 2011, 03:21:22 pm
Hello all:
First, I am not a Pro. I am a retired 74 year old engineer. I am very fortunate in that I found a nice niche printing, mounting, matting, framing and selling my seascape prints. I make big prints (13"x19", 16"x24" 24"x30" and 24"x32". I have been using a 1DS III, and Alpha 900 full frame cameras, and up until now, my PC with 4 gb ram was able to struggle along. In December I added a Pentax 645D. The files are much bigger, and my PC is choking. Quite often in Photoshop I get an OUT OF RAM error message. I am on a budget. I went to HP's site and "confgured" a PC, but my expertise in state of the art PCs is limited. My criteria is:
1. I need a firewire to run my Polaroid 120 Sprintscan medium format/35mm film scanner
2. I figured I should get 16 gb ram
3. I presently have two hard drives, one for programs, one for files...I would like to retain that configuration
4. I do not need a monitor, keyboard, or mouse (I use a Wacom Tablet). I do not need speakers.

I configured an HPE560z as follows:
1. Windows 7 Home 64 bit
2. AMD Phenom II x6 1075 six-core processor (3.0 GHZ, 3MB L2+6MB L3 shared, up to 4000 Mhz)
3. 16 GB DDR-3-1333 Mhz SDRAM (4 DIMMS)
4. Primary drive: 1TB 7200 RPM 3gb/s SATA Hard Drive
5. Secondary drive: Same as above
6. Graphics Card: 1 GB DDR3 AMD Radeon HD 6450 (DVI, HDMI, VGA adapter) (NOTE: The PC will not be used for games, etc)
7. Primary Optical Drive: LightScribe 16x max DVD+/-R/RW (NOTE: I have a modern external USB Blu-Ray burner).
8. "Productivity Port" (on front of PC): 15-in 1 memory card reader, 1 USB, and one 1394, and audio)
Can anyone comment? BTW the price as configured is $1,308.
Thanks in advance  :-X
Dave Gurtcheff
Beach Haven, NJ
www.modernpictorials.com
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: darr on March 26, 2011, 03:24:07 pm
I would get 24 GB of RAM.

I just upgraded my DELL T7500 to 24 GB RAM from crucial.com.  I run Lightroom and CS5 together bouncing back and forth with P45 and FF Nikon files and found it made a noticeable difference form the previous 12 GB I had previously. I think RAM (and processor speed) can make all the difference when working with MF files.

There are a few computer geeks on this forum that can tell you better than me. :)
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Dave Gurtcheff on March 26, 2011, 03:37:02 pm
Thank you Darr. The HP I was looking at had a max of 16 gb RAM. I will check the Dell site and see if I can find the T7500.
Dave
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: darr on March 26, 2011, 03:41:28 pm
Dave,
I would seriously look at a Puget Systems Genesis (http://www.pugetsystems.com/genesis.php) system.  When I need to replace my DELL, it will be with a Puget Genesis. 

Darr
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Dave Gurtcheff on March 26, 2011, 04:18:55 pm
Dave,
I would seriously look at a Puget Systems Genesis (http://www.pugetsystems.com/genesis.php) system.  When I need to replace my DELL, it will be with a Puget Genesis. 

Darr
Thanks for the link. I went to the site and saw some nice configurations, and sent them a note regarding my needs and budget.
Dave
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: BFoto on March 26, 2011, 06:22:57 pm
Hello all:
 ...1DS III,.... and Alpha 900....  I added a Pentax 645D. .....

I am on a budget.

mmmm, something doesn't add up here mate.

The computer is 1/3 of the work flow...!

Just sayin.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 26, 2011, 08:28:30 pm
Have you considered building your own windows computer?  You can get a whole lot of machine for surprisingly little money.  Assembly is mostly plug and play and with an engineering background I think you should be able to get the job done with a bit of internet help.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Steve Weldon on March 27, 2011, 12:44:41 am
Dave -

+1 for Craig's post.  You can easily build your own to much higher specs for less money (usually).  Most towns, even small ones, will have a PC builder who will put one together to your specs for not much as well.

The hard part is in knowing what parts and why you're buying them.  I tried to cover the basics in this article  (http://www.bangkokimages.com/Articles/Equipment/entryid/944/Mini-Tower-i7-950-Workstation-Build.aspx)which you may find helpful.  It talks about a build and why each part was selected.

Good luck.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: feppe on March 27, 2011, 07:12:13 am
As someone who's been building his own computers for 15+ years, I agree that building your own workstation for heavy lifting is indeed cheaper, but it's not something I would recommend to someone who hasn't done it before. There are a lot of things one has to keep in mind and to know for best performance, such as right socket in mobo/CPU, how many rails should be in the PSU, memory timings, which SATA/RAID card is best, how to ensure proper cooling, etc.

It will take hours and hours of research to get up to speed on what's required, needed and desirable - of course for a non-professional this might not be an issue at all. Nevertheless, a first build is prone to mistakes and perhaps best outsourced to a professional or a PC manufacturer.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Steve Weldon on March 27, 2011, 07:39:58 am
It will take hours and hours of research to get up to speed on what's required, needed and desirable - of course for a non-professional this might not be an issue at all. Nevertheless, a first build is prone to mistakes and perhaps best outsourced to a professional or a PC manufacturer.
All true, expect I think you meant PC Builder?

The problem I've noticed is there's not much information out there which focuses on imaging workstations.  "Generally" what works well for gaming also works well imaging, but there are important differences.  When researching find material which focuses on imaging workstations and is as current as possible, and then find a builder who's actually built imaging workstations.

If you buy a pre-built from HP or someplace similar you'll often end up replacing  the entire PC each time.  They put in 'just enough' power supply and other components to market the thing, which really doesn't serve the long term user well.  If, you spec out a top case and power supply, top drives, you'll often find you can make significant upgrades for less money by just replacing the CPU/RAM/MB and maybe a video card..  A top case can be good forever.. a top power supply for maybe 3-4 builds.. and drives until they reach the end of their recommended life. 

It's worth getting up to speed on these things and hunting down a builder you can trust.  The mechanics of assembling a system isn't difficult at all, but choosing the right components can be a challenge.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Dave Gurtcheff on March 27, 2011, 12:01:32 pm
Thank you all. I found the replies from Pugent Systems to be quick, and found their recommendations for a system to be helpful. If you configure a work station on line, and state what your end use is, they will critique it and offer improvements. I am waiting for a response and price from them for my most recent request. I think they have the "build your own" advantages, but they do it all the time. I have absolutly no connection with the company; in fact I never heard of them until this forum.
Dave
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: keithrsmith on March 28, 2011, 03:35:26 am
Make sure that your scanner has driver support for Windows 7 64 bit. 

Keith
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: BobShram on March 28, 2011, 08:08:26 am
Dave
You may think of having your Hard drive with the OS and programs a SAS drive and the one for files a SATA drive. I would think you would only need a 250gb for the SAS drive, 1tb seems high for this. The SAS would help speed up the process. You would have to make sure the MB is compatable though.

I agree with BFoto though you may wish to spend a bit more on the computer.

 Best of luck, Bob.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Dave Gurtcheff on March 28, 2011, 08:25:27 am
Keith: You are exactly correct. My Polaroid 120 Sprintscan is an orphan. The disk that came with it will not even support XP. I had to go on line, and a gentleman here, a few years back, sent me the driver compatible with XP. I originally down loaded it from Polaroid's site, then my PC crashed, and their site was gone! I do have a copy of the driver, but I am sure it may not work on Windows 7, unless it has an "XP" mode?
Thanks all for the suggestions and help.
Dave

Make sure that your scanner has driver support for Windows 7 64 bit. 

Keith
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Steve Weldon on March 28, 2011, 09:00:25 am
Keith: You are exactly correct. My Polaroid 120 Sprintscan is an orphan. The disk that came with it will not even support XP. I had to go on line, and a gentleman here, a few years back, sent me the driver compatible with XP. I originally down loaded it from Polaroid's site, then my PC crashed, and their site was gone! I do have a copy of the driver, but I am sure it may not work on Windows 7, unless it has an "XP" mode?
Thanks all for the suggestions and help.
Dave


You just happen to be in luck.. Windows Pro, Ultimate and Enterprise are compatible with a Microsoft supplied downloadable XP mode.  You can read more about it in this excellent article (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/reviews/2010/01/windows-xp-mode.ars).  Basically you end up running a 'virtual' XP machine.  In my experience this works great for legacy 98/ME/2000/XP software, but is often problematic where drivers are concerned.  You'll probably need to play with it a bit..

And.. where it can also become a problem is with a x64 machine.. not sure a x64 machine can virtualize a x32 environment?  Anyone know how this works when it comes to drivers?  Software it can do, drivers not so sure..

Many people keep an old laptop or some old machine around just for software applications such as these..
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on March 28, 2011, 09:23:10 am
I do have a copy of the driver, but I am sure it may not work on Windows 7, unless it has an "XP" mode?

Hi Dave,

Windows 7 does have an XP-mode (it runs as a virtual machine), but I'm not sure whether you need the Win7 Premium version to allow enabling XP-mode. However, there is no need to, because VueScan most likely can drive the scanner (it's on the supported scanners (http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/vuescan.htm#polaroid) list). I know it drives my scanners, and one or two of them are also not supported anymore by the manufacturer, but VueScan has no problem with them so I never bothered to try installing the outdated drivers after upgrading to Win 7.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Dave Gurtcheff on March 28, 2011, 09:25:57 am
You just happen to be in luck.. Windows Pro, Ultimate and Enterprise are compatible with a Microsoft supplied downloadable XP mode.  You can read more about it in this excellent article (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/reviews/2010/01/windows-xp-mode.ars).  Basically you end up running a 'virtual' XP machine.  In my experience this works great for legacy 98/ME/2000/XP software, but is often problematic where drivers are concerned.  You'll probably need to play with it a bit..

And.. where it can also become a problem is with a x64 machine.. not sure a x64 machine can virtualize a x32 environment?  Anyone know how this works when it comes to drivers?  Software it can do, drivers not so sure..

Many people keep an old laptop or some old machine around just for software applications such as these..

Steve: That's a good thought. My present PC is still running....I could take it and my scanner to my workshop, and use it strictly for legacy stuff.
Thanks for the idea.
Dave
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Dave Gurtcheff on March 28, 2011, 09:33:33 am
Hi Dave,

Windows 7 does have an XP-mode (it runs as a virtual machine), but I'm not sure whether you need the Win7 Premium version to allow enabling XP-mode. However, there is no need to, because VueScan most likely can drive the scanner (it's on the supported scanners (http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/vuescan.htm#polaroid) list). I know it drives my scanners, and one or two of them are also not supported anymore by the manufacturer, but VueScan has no problem with them so I never bothered to try installing the outdated drivers after upgrading to Win 7.

Cheers,
Bart

Hi Bart: That's FANTASTIC that VueScan can support my Orphaned Polaroid. I really like the scanner...it was one of the earliest to support 120 medium format film. All my earlier work was done scanning color and B&W negative film. Some of my best and best selling work was done with Pentax 67 and 645 scanned negatives. Scanned at 4000 dpi, they are capable of really BIG prints!
Thanks again all.
Dave
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Dave Gurtcheff on March 28, 2011, 03:24:59 pm
Thanks all here for the help and advice. Several people pointed out I should not be pinching pennies here, as the PC is 1/3 the work flow. I went over my budget a bit, but the folks at Puget Systems have been very prompt and helpful configuring a system for me knowing my end use. What they suggest (copied and pasted from their site, I hope they don't mind) is as follows (comments welcome):

System Core
Motherboard  Asus P8H67-M EVO REV 3.0     
CPU  Intel Core i5 2500K QUAD CORE 3.3GHz 95W   
Ram  Kingston 16GB DDR3-1333 (4x4GB) 
Video Card  XFX Radeon HD 5670 512MB   
 
Storage
Hard Drive  Western Digital Caviar Green 1.5TB

  Comments: Secondary drive.
 
 
 Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB SATA 6 Gb/s

  Comments: Primary drive.
 
   
CD / DVD  Asus 24x DVD-RW Lightscribe SATA (black)   
 
Case / Cooling
Case  Antec Mini P180 (Black)   
Power Supply  Antec TruePower 650W Power Supply   
CPU Cooling  Scythe Katana 3 CPU Cooler   
 
Software
OS  Windows 7 Professional 64-bit OEM SP1   
Software: Security  Microsoft Security Essentials [NO SUPPORT]   
 
Accessories
Services  Warranty: Lifetime Labor, 1 Year Parts

Thanks again for your help
Dave

Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: feppe on March 28, 2011, 03:35:38 pm
Thanks all here for the help and advice. Several people pointed out I should not be pinching pennies here, as the PC is 1/3 the work flow. I went over my budget a bit, but the folks at Puget Systems have been very prompt and helpful configuring a system for me knowing my end use. What they suggest (copied and pasted from their site, I hope they don't mind) is as follows (comments welcome):

System Core
Motherboard  Asus P8H67-M EVO REV 3.0     
CPU  Intel Core i5 2500K QUAD CORE 3.3GHz 95W   
Ram  Kingston 16GB DDR3-1333 (4x4GB) 
Video Card  XFX Radeon HD 5670 512MB   
 
Storage
Hard Drive  Western Digital Caviar Green 1.5TB

  Comments: Secondary drive.
 
 
 Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB SATA 6 Gb/s

  Comments: Primary drive.
 
   
CD / DVD  Asus 24x DVD-RW Lightscribe SATA (black)   
 
Case / Cooling
Case  Antec Mini P180 (Black)   
Power Supply  Antec TruePower 650W Power Supply   
CPU Cooling  Scythe Katana 3 CPU Cooler   
 
Software
OS  Windows 7 Professional 64-bit OEM SP1   
Software: Security  Microsoft Security Essentials [NO SUPPORT]   
 
Accessories
Services  Warranty: Lifetime Labor, 1 Year Parts

Thanks again for your help
Dave



Not sure why they have listed 1.5TB drive - you get much better bang for euro with 2TB drives at least in Netherlands. Don't know what WD's current warranty policy is (not buying them anymore after their "premium" Raptor failed on me and the painful RMA took over a month), but it's probably longer than the quoted 1 year. Samsung, for example, has 3 years.

Also, a "green" (5400 rpm) drive will be slower than 7200rpm or 10k+ drives. This might or might not matter to you, but reading a .psd file in the hundreds of megs can take a while on slower drives. OS drive probably doesn't matter due to Superfetch and programs need to only be started once, but you'll be reading and writing those heavy image files over and over again, so a faster data drive might make sense.

For a computer used for heavy lifting a striped RAID array or SSD might make sense for cache/scrap, although you shouldn't need that with 16 gigs of memory, so ROI might not be high enough for the considerable expense.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Dave Gurtcheff on March 28, 2011, 04:04:42 pm
Thank you Feppe. I changed the secondary drive (where my files will be) to a 1 TB 7200 "Black", in lieu of 1.5 TB "Green". I don't need the extra space, but do prefer faster read/write times. The primary 500 gb drive will be home to programs.
Thanks again
Dave
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: jalcocer on March 28, 2011, 07:33:42 pm
Hi Dave, was reading your post and I'm glad you are getting a new system. Just a comment, that motherboard from Puget does not come with a 1394 port, nor has a 1394 conector on board, don't know if you already noticed that, or if you are planning to keep using your device with the old pc.

If you intend to use it in the new system you'll need a pci card with some 1394 ports. May I recommend you ask puget about a pci 1394 card for your new system?, if they don't give you that option is not that much of a problem, those cards are really cheap and sold everywhere, and easy to install.

Regards
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 29, 2011, 12:24:15 am
Thanks all here for the help and advice. Several people pointed out I should not be pinching pennies here, as the PC is 1/3 the work flow. I went over my budget a bit, but the folks at Puget Systems have been very prompt and helpful configuring a system for me knowing my end use. What they suggest (copied and pasted from their site, I hope they don't mind) is as follows (comments welcome):

System Core
Motherboard  Asus P8H67-M EVO REV 3.0     
CPU  Intel Core i5 2500K QUAD CORE 3.3GHz 95W   
Ram  Kingston 16GB DDR3-1333 (4x4GB) 
Video Card  XFX Radeon HD 5670 512MB   
 
Storage
Hard Drive  Western Digital Caviar Green 1.5TB

  Comments: Secondary drive.
 
 
 Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB SATA 6 Gb/s

  Comments: Primary drive.
 
   
CD / DVD  Asus 24x DVD-RW Lightscribe SATA (black)   
 
Case / Cooling
Case  Antec Mini P180 (Black)   
Power Supply  Antec TruePower 650W Power Supply   
CPU Cooling  Scythe Katana 3 CPU Cooler   
 
Software
OS  Windows 7 Professional 64-bit OEM SP1   
Software: Security  Microsoft Security Essentials [NO SUPPORT]   
 
Accessories
Services  Warranty: Lifetime Labor, 1 Year Parts

Thanks again for your help
Dave



If you don't mind sharing, what was the price quote for this machine?
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Steve Weldon on March 29, 2011, 02:15:51 am
Some of the components are low end, some better.

Will this machine work for image processing?  Yes. 

Could you build a much faster one?  Yes.

Have you priced these parts separately?  If not, try www.newegg.com

Once you do, then you'll know how much you're paying them to put the machine together for you and for their one year warranty.  As already mentioned, many of these parts are warrantied for much longer than 1 year.  The video card for instance is probably 3 years, the hard drives at least 3 and maybe 5.. the motherboard 3 years.  RAM is often lifetime.  Low end power supplies 1 year.. These warranties are all things to weigh when you build your own machine because 'generally' longer warranties indicate a higher quality item. 

Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: degrub on March 29, 2011, 08:58:55 am
Here is a way around the driver issue -

http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/polaroid_sprintscan_120.html

Should be able to get decent results.


Didn't see Bart's earlier post.

Frank
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Dave Gurtcheff on March 29, 2011, 11:31:53 am
Hi Dave, was reading your post and I'm glad you are getting a new system. Just a comment, that motherboard from Puget does not come with a 1394 port, nor has a 1394 conector on board, don't know if you already noticed that, or if you are planning to keep using your device with the old pc.

If you intend to use it in the new system you'll need a pci card with some 1394 ports. May I recommend you ask puget about a pci 1394 card for your new system?, if they don't give you that option is not that much of a problem, those cards are really cheap and sold everywhere, and easy to install.

Regards
Hi Jalcocer:
The machine has 4 USB 2.0, 2 USB 3.0, and firewire ports on the rear along with SATA4; four of these (what are these for?), a SATA 6.0 Gbps: two (????), and a front panel with 2 USB 2.0, audio in, audio out,  and eSATA: one (what is this?).
The quote is $1600.
Thanks again all: very educational process.
Dave
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 29, 2011, 12:23:21 pm
Looks like they are charging you 400 bucks, give or take to assemble this machine for you, based on Newegg pricing.  Newegg does not have the exact case or cpu cooler so I priced similar stuff. 

400 bucks would go a long way towards upgrades like an i7 processor for example.  This is a pretty simple build.  I think you could handle it.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Steve Weldon on March 29, 2011, 12:53:57 pm
Looks like they are charging you 400 bucks, give or take to assemble this machine for you, based on Newegg pricing.  Newegg does not have the exact case or cpu cooler so I priced similar stuff. 

400 bucks would go a long way towards upgrades like an i7 processor for example.  This is a pretty simple build.  I think you could handle it.
+1  I wanted to say that. 

The company I think is charging him a fair fee considering the warranty, but it's a price he'll have to weigh against his desire to tackle the learning curve of putting one together himself.


Dave -  One more thing you need to be SURE to check on.  Make sure to ask if the motherboard has the latest B3 stepping revision.  When the new Sandy Bridge CPU's first came out the supporting motherboards had issues with their SATA controller chipsets and they ALL had to be replaced or revised at the factory.  It was a huge thing some months back, most likely all current stock is fine but..
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: jalcocer on March 29, 2011, 02:29:49 pm
Hi Jalcocer:
The machine has 4 USB 2.0, 2 USB 3.0, and firewire ports on the rear along with SATA4; four of these (what are these for?), a SATA 6.0 Gbps: two (????), and a front panel with 2 USB 2.0, audio in, audio out,  and eSATA: one (what is this?).
The quote is $1600.
Thanks again all: very educational process.
Dave

Hi Dave, well, really good you are getting those firewire. eSata is an external sata port, most of the recent motherboards come with it as well as with the new usb 3.0 along with the usual usb 2.0, some cases even have that port to be connected directly to the motherboard.

In the pc environment eSata began to be used a lot, like firewire 800 is used in the mac environment (the transfer speeds are the same that those allowed by the internal sata ports). There are a lot of external hard drives that today come with both usb and eSata ports, and you'll find a lot of hard drive cases that come with this port too.

REgars
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: feppe on March 29, 2011, 02:47:54 pm
Not really my business, but I can't pass since I'm quite dismayed. The builder who quoted the price worked for it, was in contact with the prospective customer with back-and-forth, took the customer's feedback and adjusted the setup; and now you are encouraging him to build the same computer himself and the builder is left to eat the time and cost it took to get there.

Imagine if a pro architecture photographer was asked to shoot a complicated living room in tough lighting. He'd show the prospective client how he plans to set up the lights, what time of day is best for the shoot, what kind of lens, etc. Then the customer drops him an email that "I'm doing it myself, thanks for the tips."
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Steve Weldon on March 29, 2011, 04:17:45 pm
Not really my business, but I can't pass since I'm quite dismayed. The builder who quoted the price worked for it, was in contact with the prospective customer with back-and-forth, took the customer's feedback and adjusted the setup; and now you are encouraging him to build the same computer himself and the builder is left to eat the time and cost it took to get there.

Imagine if a pro architecture photographer was asked to shoot a complicated living room in tough lighting. He'd show the prospective client how he plans to set up the lights, what time of day is best for the shoot, what kind of lens, etc. Then the customer drops him an email that "I'm doing it myself, thanks for the tips."
I understand your point, but I don't think it's worth getting 'dismayed' over, especially since it's not quite the same thing.

1.  Building a PC is not a specialized skill anymore.  The only equipment needed to assemble a PC is a screwdriver and sometimes not even that.  The knowledge isn't specialized either.  Quite different from the equipment and skill set needed for your analogy.

2.  You really think the PC Builder spent all that much time?  Every business spends a certain amount of time trying to land clients.  I don't know about anyone else, but I freely give information to prospective clients about my competitors.  Only through being educated and knowing what's available (alternatives) will they end up choosing me for the reasons I'd prefer.. which would be why they should hire me knowing the differences.

3.  I think in todays world it's a mistake to feel loyalty to someone just because they've taken the time to give you a quote.  Or conversely expect a prospective client will select you 'only' because you took the time/effort to give them a quote.  If you want their business you'll need to do much better than that.  You'll need to let them know why choosing you is in their best interest, help them feel comfortable with you, and make doing business with you both enjoyable and hassle free.  You'll need to let them know these things better than the next guy, and in such a way that 'building it themselves' is ill advised.  Salesmanship.

The market is much more complex and competitive.  Its the consumers responsibility to obtain several quotes (and you're not going to buy from them all despite the time and effort they took) for any service in such a competitive marketplace.  It's also the consumers responsibility to evaluate alternatives and make the best decision based on their criteria.  When someone comes on a forum requesting advice/help, then that forum becomes part of the decision making process.  And while I'd love for us all here to get a check for offering our learned opinions.. I don't expect to find one in my mailbox anytime soon.

But most of all.. please don't try and tell us we shouldn't offer advice we see in the OP's best interest.  That's totally counterintuitive to a functioning forum where information is shared.  I personally think the OP is doing exactly what he should be doing.  He's gathering information, asking for quotes, and letting someone EARN his business.  If they do then he'll give it to them.  Or maybe he'll evaluate the costs in such a way where he'll decide to build his own.  Either way, the PC builders name/link came from this thread as did our advice.  Exactly what a forum is for.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 29, 2011, 04:51:44 pm
Not really my business, but I can't pass since I'm quite dismayed. The builder who quoted the price worked for it, was in contact with the prospective customer with back-and-forth, took the customer's feedback and adjusted the setup; and now you are encouraging him to build the same computer himself and the builder is left to eat the time and cost it took to get there.

Imagine if a pro architecture photographer was asked to shoot a complicated living room in tough lighting. He'd show the prospective client how he plans to set up the lights, what time of day is best for the shoot, what kind of lens, etc. Then the customer drops him an email that "I'm doing it myself, thanks for the tips."

No, I suggested he build his own machine prior to him showing us what a builder suggested. And I suggest he can build a BETTER computer for less money. 

I also freely share my work practices and processes.  My relationship with my clients goes well beyond the specfic workflow for producing the photos.  They hire me for lots of reasons, not just how I might light a certain subject for example.

Now the OP might feel the price is fair, the product satisfactory and the company solid enough to stand by the warranty. He might not what to build it himself.  But he WILL be an informed consumer.  He now has  more options.  Is there a problem with that?
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: feppe on March 29, 2011, 05:35:20 pm
Enjoy the race to the bottom.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 29, 2011, 06:36:08 pm
Enjoy the race to the bottom.

Race to the bottom?  Surely you jest....
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: feppe on March 29, 2011, 07:14:15 pm
Race to the bottom?  Surely you jest....

You haven't read the news in the last 30 years?

Anyway, this is not the time or the place. If you guys see no problem with this, so be it.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 29, 2011, 07:24:17 pm
Don't race to the bottom next time you crank out a few prints instead of running down to the local printer....silly.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on March 29, 2011, 07:34:32 pm
You haven't read the news in the last 30 years?

Anyway, this is not the time or the place. If you guys see no problem with this, so be it.

+1

I'm reasonably comfortable with PC configurations myself, and the various variables available to compose a theoretical system. In practice though, and I've whitnessed it close up, just combining superior components is no guarantee whatsoever that the configuration will actually work (reliably). I've seen that even an experienced electrical engineer can get stuck, just because a memory stick is of the wrong brand, or a motherboard's timing is not optimal, or the latest firmware is not installed, or ...

To recommend such an enterprise to someone less experienced is plainly naive, irresponsible, stupid.

The extra money paid to someone with the responsability of providing a working solution, is well spent.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: DeanChriss on March 29, 2011, 07:46:46 pm
For what it's worth... I ordered a Core i7-2600 (Intel Sandy Bridge) computer from Puget in late January and got it a short while later, on the very same day everyone found out about Intel's Sandy Bridge recall. Of course this created a hassle, but Puget paid for shipping it back across the country replaced the mother board and I got it back before anyone else was even selling Sandy Bridge PCs again. On top of that, their workmanship is first class, as are their technicians and technical support staff. My day job is as an engineering consultant in the computer field so I could have built this myself, but I'm very glad I did not.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Farmer on March 29, 2011, 09:41:45 pm
I put together ("build: would suggest more to the effort than there ever really is) a PC for the first time around 1996, and before that I happily installed modifications and upgrades to my Amiga.  Before that, dating back to 1980 when I first had a personal computer (Z-80 based), I opened them up for a look, but never did anything to them.

I put together dozens for friends and family and myself over the years - perhaps over a 100 in all.  I long ago gave up doing initial "builds", though.  It's just not worth my time and effort compared to having someone else do it (although the rates around here are about $100- on top of the components).

There are always options to do it cheaper, as with almost anything in life, but it's the after sales support and service that costs you money and, ultimately, is well worth it.

I tend to agree with Bart, although less emphatically :-), that for someone who hasn't done it before and isn't up with the latest info or have a technical background, it can be quite a drama (it can also go surprisingly well, as I've seen many times) - but it's always a risk.

For a commercial/business use, it's almost always worth paying a little extra for piece of mind - at least at the beginning.
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: jalcocer on March 29, 2011, 09:44:24 pm
For what it's worth... I ordered a Core i7-2600 (Intel Sandy Bridge) computer from Puget in late January and got it a short while later, on the very same day everyone found out about Intel's Sandy Bridge recall. Of course this created a hassle, but Puget paid for shipping it back across the country replaced the mother board and I got it back before anyone else was even selling Sandy Bridge PCs again. On top of that, their workmanship is first class, as are their technicians and technical support staff. My day job is as an engineering consultant in the computer field so I could have built this myself, but I'm very glad I did not.

He is right, it is a really huge weight of your back to have the certainty that if something goes wrong, the vendor is going to replace it, and that the assembly is made by people who really knows their business. It is true that you could save a lot of money building it your self, but me, being a computer builder here in Mexico where we are not that ahead (mainly because people dont want to spend), sometimes I have so much trouble when there is some compatibility issues with something that on paper should work together.

You should check also digitalstormonline.com, they have really good systems, huge gamer market but also sell systems for other type of customer, maybe have good price in something similar, you may also try velocity micro, by experience with some people I know that own both brands is good, about a price comparisson I couldn't tell you, but I understand those three vendors (including puget) are really really good.

Regards
Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 29, 2011, 09:59:56 pm


To recommend such an enterprise to someone less experienced is plainly naive, irresponsible, stupid.

The extra money paid to someone with the responsability of providing a working solution, is well spent.

Cheers,
Bart

Clearly you and I find ourselves different sides of this issue.  Lets take this to the subject of photography for example.  Would you advise the op NOT shoot his first wedding for example?  Or first Portrait session?  First commercial shoot?  First Fashion shoot?  Gotta be a first time for everything.  And if you do your homework and prepare chances are good you will do just fine.

Naive? Irresponsible? Stupid?  Sheesh.....

Look..an alternative to pre built was offered.  Thats it.  If the OP is not comfortable with the selection and assembly thats great.  If he is he has that option as well.  Again its not rocket science.  I've been building for 20 years and todays hardware is the most plug and play I have ever seen.  Sure thing happen but they happen with pre built as well.  Heck its taken me 4 different macbook pro's to find two that actually work, And yet my current desktop workstation built only a few months ago...by me...has been assemble, boot first time..produce work.  

I've no beef with Puget, they seem like a decent company.  I'm sure they assemble a fine produce from their parts buffet.

Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Steve Weldon on March 30, 2011, 01:19:30 am
+1

I'm reasonably comfortable with PC configurations myself, and the various variables available to compose a theoretical system. In practice though, and I've whitnessed it close up, just combining superior components is no guarantee whatsoever that the configuration will actually work (reliably). I've seen that even an experienced electrical engineer can get stuck, just because a memory stick is of the wrong brand, or a motherboard's timing is not optimal, or the latest firmware is not installed, or ...

To recommend such an enterprise to someone less experienced is plainly naive, irresponsible, stupid.

The extra money paid to someone with the responsability of providing a working solution, is well spent.

Cheers,
Bart

1.  An "electrical engineer" really has little to do with electronics or computers.  I don't see the relevance.  

2.  You must be kidding.. there are a zillion "how to build a PC for dummies" books out there, Youtube tutorials, etc.. this is one of the easiest self-help projects of our times.  I think it would be plainly naive, irresponsible and stupid to suggest it isn't. (tongue in cheek of course..)

Title: Re: New PC advise for Medium Format
Post by: Steve Weldon on March 30, 2011, 01:44:28 am
To isolate the silliness.

1.  No one is knocking using a PC builder.  I myself suggested it as an alternative in the opening posts.  It has its advantages.

2.  Clearly "some" people in this thread aren't knowledgeable/comfortable enough to build their own computer as evidenced by the content of their comments.  Not everyone has the same strengths.  Not a problem.

3.  I suggest the hysteria over the issue is silly.  If you don't feel comfortable building your own PC then don't do it.  Just don't assume everyone shares your discomfort or ability level.  I've worked with electronics since I was 9, I'm an extra class ham radio operator, was a Naval Cryptographer/Electronics specialist for two decades, and have more college level electronic classes than someone with a masters in electronic engineering.  I also build custom PC's for my clients and do 'light' equipment reviews.  Assembling a PC requires absolutely 'zero' electronics knowledge above the consumer level and is more about doing research and following directions than anything else.  Building a PC IS NOT an electronic mystery.


What I take issue with:

a.  The concept that we should restrict what information we provide to a poster for fear we will hurt our industry.  A forum is all about sharing information.  Any attempt to restrict what's shared severely hurts the function of a forum and does the OP a disservice.

b.   That we somehow need to protect the OP from himself.  The man reached 74 years of age and probably knows more about 'things' than those younger.  I'm sure he can make a sound decision either way.

c.  The hysteria and exaggerations and attaching words like naive, stupid, irresponsible.. and in reference to a technical issue in a technical forum nonetheless..