Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: kerriann85 on March 23, 2011, 09:41:19 pm

Title: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 23, 2011, 09:41:19 pm
My monitor is supposed to be calibrated.
Here is a screen capture of the windows7 folder (not the previewer) next to the same file open in photoshop cs5.  To me the windows image looks very red. Sunburned if you will.
That is the way my image came back from the pro lab.  Both when I sent it without lab correction, then when I sent it with lab color correction. (for about double the price)

 It's also the way the print came back from Walmart when I requested them to not use their auto correction.
The photoshop print is closer, (must less red) to the way the print came back from Walmart when I let them print it the way they normally print (with correction).

I'm almost frustrated to tears.  I have a whole set of staff headshot prints from the lab and to me they all look like they are sunburned.  They don't look that way in photoshop,
I've read the "why are my prints too dark"
If it helps any, the values on her right cheek bone read: c-0, m-19, y-16, k-0  and R254, G212, B200

I'm just about frustrated to tears.  Can someone tell me something helpful?
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Iliah on March 23, 2011, 10:13:28 pm
Some questions:
1. What colour space is the image?
2. Is the colour space embedded into the image?
3. What colour space the lab expects?
4. How your monitor profile is set in the system and in Photoshop?
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Luca Ragogna on March 23, 2011, 10:29:27 pm
If the uncorrected print and corrected print from a pro lab look the same I would say that they're charging you for nothing.

Any chance you could post the actual JPEG? Those RGB numbers seem wack, those aren't the numbers I get when I check your screen grab and I tried to match those numbers with a quick curves adjustment and the shot ends up REALLY red and blown out. I'm leaning towards the conclusion that your monitor isn't really calibrated. What are you using to calibrate?

Also, make sure you're sending sRGB Jpegs to the labs, they do a crap job of converting files.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Czornyj on March 24, 2011, 04:46:53 am
You have a wide gamut monitor, with a color space volume similar to AdobeRGB. The picture is rendered to sRGB editing color space, that is much smaller than the color space of your display. The display is calibrated and profiled, so Photoshop reads the display profile that is describing the color space of the display, and manages the colors. The picture viewer doesn't seem to manage the colors of the picture, so that's why they're over-saturated. You need an image browser with color management module to get proper sRGB image colors on wide gamut display.

If prints from the lab are still less colorful than in Photoshop, you should try to:
-calibrate the display to a lower luminance level
-increase the display to a higher blackpoint brightness
-illuminate the print with more daylight
-softproof the image with the ICC profile of the lab+paper, and paper color simulation applied
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: digitaldog on March 24, 2011, 10:07:27 am
My monitor is supposed to be calibrated.

Calibrated how is the $64K question. And can you soft proof the images using the lab’s provided ICC profile?
See: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Iliah on March 24, 2011, 10:47:06 am
> Calibrated how is the $64K question.

Well, if delta EV between (L,a,b) (100,0,0) and (50,0,0) in total darkness is about 2 to 2.5 while (L,a,b) (100,0,0) is measured 8 to 10 EV than brightness is OK. Colour temperature and grey balance can be verified shooting grey patches of varying L displayed on the screen in Photoshop, out of focus, 1/15 of a second or slower, and checking colour temperature and uniformity of white balance for shots of different L in a raw converter. Only central portion of the patches should be used.

IMHO the issue at hand is more about colour management consistency.

L(cd/m^2)=2^(EV-3)
EV=log2(L)+3

For ISO =100:
EV = 2*log2(f) - log2(s); f is aperture number, s - exposure time in seconds.
For ISO 100, f/8, s=1/8 sec:
EV=2*log2(8) - log2(1/8) = 2*3 - (-3) = 9

Colorimeters and spectrophotometers are not always great at measuring light flux, while exposure meters are designed to do just that.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 24, 2011, 08:15:21 pm
Yes, I was totally amazed when the lab corrected prints came back. 
Here is the original .jpg
How do all of you people feel about the color?  To me she's a nice "peachy" Caucasian.  Not sunburned.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Iliah on March 24, 2011, 08:24:34 pm
The colour is hypersaturated and on magenta side. So it is with eyedropper in Photoshop, so it looks on my monitor.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 24, 2011, 08:28:58 pm
Some questions:
1. What colour space is the image?
2. Is the colour space embedded into the image?
3. What colour space the lab expects?

sRGB as far as I know....   I'm going to do some more digging around

4. How your monitor profile is set in the system and in Photoshop?

that's what I'm not totally sure about.  I'm going to try some screen captures to see if things look like they should to you guys.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 24, 2011, 08:32:27 pm
The colour is hypersaturated and on magenta side. So it is with eyedropper in Photoshop, so it looks on my monitor.

okay, that sounds like the description of the print.  And the description of the picture on the left in the first
post above.  What I see if Photoshop looks fine, like the image on the right in the first post.

So.... if the picture in photoshop doesn't look hypersaturated and magenta but comes back from the
lab that way, that's what I'm hoping to fix!!
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 24, 2011, 08:43:55 pm
Maybe someone can see something here that looks wrong in Photoshop?
Ill go get my calibration settings next.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 24, 2011, 08:47:48 pm
And here is how my calibration settings look.   

Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 24, 2011, 09:05:33 pm
You have a wide gamut monitor, with a color space volume similar to AdobeRGB. The picture is rendered to sRGB editing color space, that is much smaller than the color space of your display. The display is calibrated and profiled, so Photoshop reads the display profile that is describing the color space of the display, and manages the colors. The picture viewer doesn't seem to manage the colors of the picture, so that's why they're over-saturated. You need an image browser with color management module to get proper sRGB image colors on wide gamut display.

If prints from the lab are still less colorful than in Photoshop, you should try to:
-calibrate the display to a lower luminance level
-increase the display to a higher blackpoint brightness
-illuminate the print with more daylight
-softproof the image with the ICC profile of the lab+paper, and paper color simulation applied


Well, the problem is just the oposite. The lab prints are too red and saturated. So Ineed a higher luminance lever and lower the blackpoint brightness?
I'm not really sure about softproofing.  Never done it (we don't do it at the photo studio I work for)  Do I just need to ask the lab for their ICC profile?
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Iliah on March 24, 2011, 10:27:41 pm
It would be good if you can upload your monitor profile for evaluation. Also, please make sure that Photoshop uses the monitor profile.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 25, 2011, 09:40:10 am
It would be good if you can upload your monitor profile for evaluation. Also, please make sure that Photoshop uses the monitor profile.

Iliah, Thanks so much for trying to help me.  How do I find my monitor profile and how do I make sure that PS uses the monitor profile?
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Iliah on March 25, 2011, 01:07:29 pm
You can start with "Color Settings" in Photoshop (Shift-Ctrl-K). In the RGB drop-down you should see the name of your monitor profile on the fifth line from the top. The line should read "Monitor RGB - <the_name_of_your_profile". Close the dialogue with "Cancel".
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on March 25, 2011, 01:26:40 pm
Iliah, Thanks so much for trying to help me.  How do I find my monitor profile and how do I make sure that PS uses the monitor profile?
If you are on a Windows machine, you can access your profile through the Control Panel.  Open it up and click on  color management The dialogue box will have three tabs: Devices, All Profiles, and Advanced.  The Devices tab will show all the profiles associated with that device.  Since you are using Spectraview you should show a profile name that has your printer ID and it will also show you when you calibrated it and the rough settings.  I have a NEC P221 so mine reads:  P221W 92100475NA 2011-03-05 18-28 D65 2.20; yours will be different.  The checkbox 'Use my settings for this device' should be checked (I'm pretty sure that Spectraview automatically sets this up for you).  I don't understand Iliah's point; if you have properly calibrated your monitor, Photoshop will use that calibration.  What you can change is the colorspace to work in.  Since I do most of my work in Lightroom with Prophoto, I have PS set up to use the Prophoto space as well.

One observation on your calibration setting; you are using the default monitor contrast setting which is probably way to high as inkjet printers cannot render that much contrast in an image.  You may want to change this the next time you calibrate to something like 350:1.  This, however, should not be why you are seeing the color problems in the prints you get back.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Luca Ragogna on March 25, 2011, 01:40:35 pm
I spent 5 minutes colour correcting your file on my laptop. The monitor is calibrated and I find it's not that far off, but keep in mind it's still a laptop and I don't usually use it for colour critical work. I've attached a levels correction for that file. The highlights blow out a bit but I think the colour is much closer to where you want it (probably still not perfect). Try it out and see how it looks on your monitor.

Try changing your white point setting to 6500 K. 5000K tend to give everything a yellow cast.

Another thing to consider is that your calibrator might be wonky. It's not unheard of. Pantone replaced a ton of Hueys because the early ones were defective.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Iliah on March 25, 2011, 01:43:02 pm
Because it is a routine to check Photoshop settings. If those are OK no point in going to Control Panel. But if they are not - troubleshooting may be a bit different a quite a bit more complicated than you just described.

If the profile is in fact used by Photoshop a closer look into profile is in order. That does not involve Control Panel.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Iliah on March 25, 2011, 01:43:36 pm
It is about 13% green filter off.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on March 25, 2011, 01:59:01 pm
Because it is a routine to check Photoshop settings. If those are OK no point in going to Control Panel. But if they are not - troubleshooting may be a bit different a quite a bit more complicated than you just described.

If the profile is in fact used by Photoshop a closer look into profile is in order. That does not involve Control Panel.
Is that only a feature added in CS5?  I have CS4 and what you describe is not available.  That's why I suggested going through the control panel.  In any case, Spectraview automates everything and as long as you don't create a second profile, this is a non-issue.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 25, 2011, 11:18:49 pm
If you are on a Windows machine, you can access your profile through the Control Panel.  Open it up and click on  color management The dialogue box will have three tabs: Devices, All Profiles, and Advanced.  The Devices tab will show all the profiles associated with that device.  Since you are using Spectraview you should show a profile name that has your printer ID and it will also show you when you calibrated it and the rough settings.  I have a NEC P221 so mine reads:  P221W 92100475NA 2011-03-05 18-28 D65 2.20; yours will be different.  The checkbox 'Use my settings for this device' should be checked (I'm pretty sure that Spectraview automatically sets this up for you).  I don't understand Iliah's point; if you have properly calibrated your monitor, Photoshop will use that calibration.  What you can change is the colorspace to work in.  Since I do most of my work in Lightroom with Prophoto, I have PS set up to use the Prophoto space as well.

One observation on your calibration setting; you are using the default monitor contrast setting which is probably way to high as inkjet printers cannot render that much contrast in an image.  You may want to change this the next time you calibrate to something like 350:1.  This, however, should not be why you are seeing the color problems in the prints you get back.

I found profile in the Control Panel.  It shows my NEC PA41..........  aAnd the chckbox is checked.
My lightroom and PS are both set to sRGB as is my camera.  Trying to keep things the same and simple.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 25, 2011, 11:20:40 pm
You can start with "Color Settings" in Photoshop (Shift-Ctrl-K). In the RGB drop-down you should see the name of your monitor profile on the fifth line from the top. The line should read "Monitor RGB - <the_name_of_your_profile". Close the dialogue with "Cancel".

Found it, and it's there as you said.
Not sure how I can upload it for evaluation tho
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 25, 2011, 11:24:40 pm
I spent 5 minutes colour correcting your file on my laptop. The monitor is calibrated and I find it's not that far off, but keep in mind it's still a laptop and I don't usually use it for colour critical work. I've attached a levels correction for that file. The highlights blow out a bit but I think the colour is much closer to where you want it (probably still not perfect). Try it out and see how it looks on your monitor.

Try changing your white point setting to 6500 K. 5000K tend to give everything a yellow cast.

Another thing to consider is that your calibrator might be wonky. It's not unheard of. Pantone replaced a ton of Hueys because the early ones were defective.


I couldn't get the levels adjustment to open in Photoshop
Maybe I need to try some new calibration settings and see what happens.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Luca Ragogna on March 26, 2011, 11:35:01 am

I couldn't get the levels adjustment to open in Photoshop
Maybe I need to try some new calibration settings and see what happens.

Add a levels adjustment layer and pick "load levels preset..." from the adjustments palette flyout and pick the file I sent you.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 26, 2011, 12:28:09 pm
Add a levels adjustment layer and pick "load levels preset..." from the adjustments palette flyout and pick the file I sent you.

Aha, I needed to add the adj layer first.
Yes, she looks much better than the sunburned version, but still not quite like the file I originally saw in photoshop and expected to
see when it came back from the lab as a print.  I appreciate the time you took to do that.

So now, back to getting the image to print as I see it in Photoshop.  I'm going to try some different
calibration settings, do a new calibration and send some prints off to Walmart requesting no auto fixing.  At least I can
get feedback in an hour instead of 2 days from my lab.


Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on March 26, 2011, 03:17:25 pm
To make it easy to download your display profile without hunting for it and uploading to a file sharing site, just assign your custom NEC display profile in Photoshop and resave it using Save As...(not Save For Web) and upload the image here as you did before.

Some of us with Macs can use Extract Profile and examine it in Colorsync's 3D color gamut utility. It will also show other embedded data like the LUTs if any exist and whether there are errors (negative numbers) in the RGB matrix formulations.

I doubt there will be an issue but it's just something to rule out just in case.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 26, 2011, 03:44:58 pm
To make it easy to download your display profile without hunting for it and uploading to a file sharing site, just assign your custom NEC display profile in Photoshop and resave it using Save As...(not Save For Web) and upload the image here as you did before.

Some of us with Macs can use Extract Profile and examine it in Colorsync's 3D color gamut utility. It will also show other embedded data like the LUTs if any exist and whether there are errors (negative numbers) in the RGB matrix formulations.

I doubt there will be an issue but it's just something to rule out just in case.


YOWZA!  I went to 'assign profile' with the monitor profile as instructed and the image went even brighter bright pink worse than the way it shows in my Windows folder and  how it prints...with the sunburned look!  Is that good or bad?  Here it is, I think this is what you wanted. 
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Czornyj on March 26, 2011, 04:25:14 pm
Assigning monitor profile to an sRGB image is pretty ponitless (like you alredy had noticed). If you want to have same look of sRGB image in Photoshop and in non color-aware viewer, install Multiprofiler, and choose sRGB mode - the monitor gamut will be recalibrated to simulate the smaller sRGB color space.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 26, 2011, 04:47:17 pm
Guys, thanks for being patient with me. This is driving me nuts.  Let's see if I'm understanding this....

I took the levels adjustment preset  that Luca did and dropped it onto my original image I liked.
It was way too cold and bluish for my taste.  So I dropped the layer down to 50%.  Didn't look too bad.
So I printed at Walmart with no auto corrections.
The print doesn't match the image I sent them, it's a bit warmer (redder)BUT it almost perfectly matches my original image before the levels adjustment!!

So if I were to take the set of 7 images from this job, where everyone looks sunburned. And drop the levels adjustment on then
back it off 50% they should print just beautiful, right?    So for the rest of  my life I have to have this magic levels adjustment preset handy. 
No thanks.   

Thus, this is where I have to reset the target for my calibration right?  I need to tell my monitor to make things look redder. Right?
Then when it looks too red in Photoshop I know I need to adjust it? 
Okay, I think I need to change the white point then right?  (Maybe I'll go read "why are my prints too dark" again.)

(If someone just wants to smack me and say "Duh" please go ahead)
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Czornyj on March 26, 2011, 05:09:23 pm
What sensor did you use to calibrate the display? Did you try to calibrate it with Multiprofiler (without a sensor)?
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 26, 2011, 05:13:44 pm
What sensor did you use to calibrate the display? Did you try to calibrate it with Multiprofiler (without a sensor)?

The sensor came with the NEC monitor.  It's an x-rite eye-one display 2.

No I didn't, should I try without the sensor?
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on March 26, 2011, 05:52:25 pm
What sensor did you use to calibrate the display? Did you try to calibrate it with Multiprofiler (without a sensor)?
She had the Spectraview pack.  From her PS image in the beginning it looks like the monitor is OK.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on March 26, 2011, 07:08:37 pm
Extracted the profile. The profile is OK.

The 3D color gamut plot is significantly larger than AdobeRGB in some areas mainly in reds, greens and blues.

Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on March 26, 2011, 07:31:36 pm
Don't adjust your monitor through calibration to get the posted image to match the Walmart print. You're in for a lot more work.

Did a test print of skin tones from the PDI color target several years ago at my local Walmart when they used a Fuji Frontier minilab printer and skin tones similar to the one posted here came across pinky peach with noticeable amount of red and very plastic looking.

What printer are they using at Walmart?

Was the subject wearing makeup that was pinky peach? Your first screenshot of the Photoshop version on the right looks too yellow and dull to where the lipstick is colored as if she's not wearing lipstick.

If you switch to Lab readouts in Photoshop's info palette try to edit the skintone so it reads equal numbers in the a and b channels. If Walmart prints that too red then edit only the hue on a layer set to Hue or Color Blend mode and try to get the Lab 'b' channel greater than 'a'.

Not much else you can do other than try to get a profile of that Walmart printer. Skin tones are the hardest to reproduce on printers designed to print from film (Fuji film in particular) which the Frontier is tuned to especially if it's at Walmart.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Luca Ragogna on March 26, 2011, 07:40:36 pm
So if I were to take the set of 7 images from this job, where everyone looks sunburned. And drop the levels adjustment on then
back it off 50% they should print just beautiful, right?    So for the rest of  my life I have to have this magic levels adjustment preset handy. 
No thanks.   

I just did that to show you what the adjusted image would look like on your monitor. To me when the levels preset is applied the image looks pretty good. If it looks pretty good to you when you print it ("pretty good" is subjective) then I would conclude that the monitor calibration is the culprit and I think at this point that's been pretty much established by everyone else too.

If I were having this issue, my first step towards troubleshooting would be to borrow an identical spectro from somebody and try to recalibrate the exact same way as before. If that original image looks neutral on screen then the calibrator is not the issue. If it looks overly red like your print then you know to return the spectro and exchange it for a new one that works.

Assuming the borrowed spectro makes no difference in what you see on screen then you need to look at your software settings. I'm a stickler for process and would advise you to rule out each possibility working from the easy to fix to the more esoteric problems but I'll bet the borrowed spectro won't make any difference. You didn't mention how the file looks in Lightroom. If LR matches PS then I'd look at your system settings, if LR matches the print and the windows preview then I'd look at your PS settings.

Since the windows preview matches your print and the photoshop one does not I'd wager that the monitor profile is applied properly in your system settings and you have a setting improperly applied in photoshop.

I don't remember reading if you have "proof colors" turned on in the "view" menu when you're viewing the image. If you do, try turning it off and see if that fixes the problem. As far as I can tell your other settings look fine.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on March 26, 2011, 07:41:16 pm
I need to make a correction.

Your first screenshot doesn't have an embedded profile so I assigned AdobeRGB which made the Photoshop preview look correct. The 'b' channel is slightly greater than 'a' in Lab readouts which says there's sufficient amount of yellow/orange to overcome magenta.

If you converted the screenshot to sRGB before posting and I assign the sRGB profile then the skin dulls and Lab 'a'=14 and 'b'=19 way too yellow and dull where before it was 'a'=20 and 'b'=22 assigning AdobeRGB.

I'm sampling from the chest area and not the cheeks which probably has pink makeup applied.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 27, 2011, 12:46:58 pm
I need to make a correction.

Your first screenshot doesn't have an embedded profile so I assigned AdobeRGB which made the Photoshop preview look correct. The 'b' channel is slightly greater than 'a' in Lab readouts which says there's sufficient amount of yellow/orange to overcome magenta.

If you converted the screenshot to sRGB before posting and I assign the sRGB profile then the skin dulls and Lab 'a'=14 and 'b'=19 way too yellow and dull where before it was 'a'=20 and 'b'=22 assigning AdobeRGB.

I'm sampling from the chest area and not the cheeks which probably has pink makeup applied.

Yes, I didn't catch it originally that there was no profile on the screenshot. That was an oversite. Normally anything saved in Photoshop i click the box that says "icc profile sRGB....." I neglected to do that.
It was mainly to illustrate the fact that there was so much difference between what I was seeing in windows (ans the print) and what I was seeing in Photoshop. Unfortunately without the embedded profile the picture on the right wasn't what I was seeing in Photoshop on the original file either!! Sorry about that.  Later on I posted the actual file of her that did have the sRGB profile.  I don't use aRGB anywhere. I use sRGB in the camera, in Lightroom, in photoshop cause that's what I send to the pro lab that prints for us.

I don't really know about Lab. 

I know that when I use the eyedropper and look at the info palette  the cmyk on caucassion skin should show me y a little more % than m. (in a nutshell) 
On Susan, the  m on her cheek is  one or two % above the y .  But I didn't think that was enough to make her look sunburned on the print.  I wonder if the eye dropper is telling me one thing and my EYES are actually telling me something else??  If I could use the eyedropper on the print would the values be the same? If I were wearing magenta tinted glasses when I looked at the screen would Photoshop match the print?

Consequently, I'm thinking I need to set my white balance differently in my calibration target so it turns the monitor a warmer redder color so I see things in photoshop as a warmer redder image???  Yes or No??

Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 27, 2011, 12:55:52 pm
I just did that to show you what the adjusted image would look like on your monitor. To me when the levels preset is applied the image looks pretty good. If it looks pretty good to you when you print it ("pretty good" is subjective) then I would conclude that the monitor calibration is the culprit and I think at this point that's been pretty much established by everyone else too.
** YES I WANT TO FIX THIS!!

If I were having this issue, my first step towards troubleshooting would be to borrow an identical spectro from somebody and try to recalibrate the exact same way as before. If that original image looks neutral on screen then the calibrator is not the issue. If it looks overly red like your print then you know to return the spectro and exchange it for a new one that works.
**I HAVE NO ONE TO BORROW FROM

Assuming the borrowed spectro makes no difference in what you see on screen then you need to look at your software settings. I'm a stickler for process and would advise you to rule out each possibility working from the easy to fix to the more esoteric problems but I'll bet the borrowed spectro won't make any difference. You didn't mention how the file looks in Lightroom. If LR matches PS then I'd look at your system settings, if LR matches the print and the windows preview then I'd look at your PS settings.
**YES, LR MATCHES PS   WHAT SETTINGS SHOULD I LOOK AT?   

Since the windows preview matches your print and the photoshop one does not I'd wager that the monitor profile is applied properly in your system settings and you have a setting improperly applied in photoshop.
**THIS MAKES SENSE,  HOW DO I FIX THIS????

I don't remember reading if you have "proof colors" turned on in the "view" menu when you're viewing the image. If you do, try turning it off and see if that fixes the problem. As far as I can tell your other settings look fine.
**NOT TURNED ON. DON"T EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT'S FOR  soft proofing?


Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 27, 2011, 01:00:42 pm
Just had to say Thanks again for sticking with me.   I wish I had someone to sit at my side and say, "Okay, first do this...."  and see what that does.

It would be nice to be able to borrow a different sensor to at least see if that was a problem.  Not possible.   

Next step?
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: RHPS on March 27, 2011, 03:36:24 pm
Have you tried doing all this with a standard test image yet? The PDI test image has accurate skin tones so you could see how it looks on your monitor and (without editing it) see how it prints at your Walmart.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: kerriann85 on March 27, 2011, 06:10:35 pm
Have you tried doing all this with a standard test image yet? The PDI test image has accurate skin tones so you could see how it looks on your monitor and (without editing it) see how it prints at your Walmart.

Wow, I totally forgot about this. I DID send the PDI file (with the four kid faces on the bottom) to my pro lab for a test print. No corrections. (not to Walmart)
The skin tones are just a bit pinkier and warmer on the print.   
When I look at the PDI print I can say the skin tone looks good.  When I look at the file in Photoshop I can say the skin tone looks good.  When I compare them side by side I can say
the kids look a little warmer and pinker.

When I look at Susan in photoshop I can say she looks good.  When I first saw Susan's print and always since then, I say she looks sunburned.

So, now what?
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Coloreason on March 27, 2011, 07:25:26 pm
It would be good if you can upload your monitor profile for evaluation...
What are you going to evaluate?
AFAIK, so far there are no means available to check if a monitor profile describes correctly how the monitor displays colors.
The only way that I can think of is trial and error comparisons. For example comparing 2 different brand monitors calibrated/profiled with different devices and software using the same target settings and the monitors are next to each other in the same lighting environment, displaying the same image having colors that are contained in the color spaces of both monitors. If the image is not the same on both monitors that means that at least one of them has inaccurate profile. To find out which, a third or more monitors and calibrating/profiling devices/software are needed until the image looks the same across two or more monitors which indicates that these monitors have accurate monitor profiles.
If someone knows a better and more elegant way to check monitor profile accuracy let me know. Because, I don't know how else one can proof that a profile is accurate and a calibration device is working properly.
Title: Re: prints dont match....
Post by: Luca Ragogna on March 27, 2011, 08:36:57 pm
Assuming the borrowed spectro makes no difference in what you see on screen then you need to look at your software settings. I'm a stickler for process and would advise you to rule out each possibility working from the easy to fix to the more esoteric problems but I'll bet the borrowed spectro won't make any difference. You didn't mention how the file looks in Lightroom. If LR matches PS then I'd look at your system settings, if LR matches the print and the windows preview then I'd look at your PS settings.
**YES, LR MATCHES PS   WHAT SETTINGS SHOULD I LOOK AT?   

Since the windows preview matches your print and the photoshop one does not I'd wager that the monitor profile is applied properly in your system settings and you have a setting improperly applied in photoshop.
**THIS MAKES SENSE,  HOW DO I FIX THIS?

Ok, I assumed that LR would match windows and not PS. That makes me think your PS settings are fine and that puts me back into thinking that the issue is a wonky spectro or windows colour setting. The reason I think that it's not a PS setting is that your PS settings wouldn't make any difference to how stuff looks in LR. Since they match, the problem is elsewhere. Honestly, my first move would be to try to calibrate with a new spectro. At this point, don't be picky about brand. If you can get your hands on a Spyder or Colormunki install the software and calibrate. If that fixes it you'll know the issue is in the spectro or the software for the spectro. If there's a camera store with a good return policy near you go buy a spectro and hang on to the receipt. It's a bit scummy to borrow product from a retail store but desperate times... besides if it turns out to be the spectro you'll probably keep the new one.

I'm not a windows guy so I don't know where to tell you to look for your system settings. But if it turns out to not be the spectro, look to see if there's a way that you possibly have 2 profiles applied. One that only windows sees and another that is also seen by PS. It was possible to do this on a Mac back a few years ago if you had a profile in Colorsync and another in Adobe Gamma. I'm grabbing at straws with the windows stuff and only making suggestions as to how I would go about eliminating possible issues until I found the culprit. Hopefully, someone else here can give you more specific windows settings advice.

One more thing to keep in mind, if you have installed any third party color management or color control apps (on the Mac we have stuff like 'Shades' to dim our monitors - don't know what you guys have but I'm talking about those types of utilities) disable or uninstall those to rule out those utilities as the root of your issues.