Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: JV on March 18, 2011, 05:21:41 pm
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Some thoughts from Nick-T on the H4D40 and the P40+:
http://www.nick-t.com/blog/2011/03/h4d40-vs-p40/
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Kind of a limited point of view ???
The Hasselblad is better because it shoots at 800 iso is a pathetic conclusion and I would argue both have very clear negatives and positives. Neither wipes the floor with the other and a hybrid of both would be the natural winner. However, as this camera does not exist the choice boils down to what features best suit your regular shooting requirements and no review/personal blog can answer that.
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the more significant difference is the different size of CCD (as far as I remember the Hass is 1.1x crop and the P40 is 1.3x)
I am a believer of bigger is better
and when comparing these 2 system I think more importantly is if you want focal plane shutter or lens shutter
this review is indeed very rough
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the more significant difference is the different size of CCD (as far as I remember the Hass is 1.1x crop and the P40 is 1.3x)
I am a believer of bigger is better
and when comparing these 2 system I think more importantly is if you want focal plane shutter or lens shutter
this review is indeed very rough
Both chips are the same size but from different manufacturers
Couple of notes re lenses: there are 16 in the current Phase/ Mamiya range with more coming. One can also choose to use Hasselblad V lenses (including F/FE), Pentax 67 lenses (via adapter), older Mamiya 645 lenses or even large format lenses.
Most Zeiss lenses (V series and Contax) and HC lenses have factory profiles in C1 BTW, to correct for distortion and chromatic aberration.
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heheh ;-)
Hasselblad at all is better. Anyone who has held both cameras in hand, knows what I say. Hasselblad is the best-designed mediumformat camera which produced so far. Phase One body is very poor ergonomics, poorly balanced, the grip is too short (sticks in hand), by fitting the V-grip can work, but unfortunately it is not well designed, bad choice of wheels are arranged, after an hour of work is being felt pain. All the time you have to use two batteries, one for the body, one for DB. Also circulated a myth that the Phase One camera is smaller, lighter and has better optics. I strongly invite you to test, I use both systems and I know what I say. In the case of the Hasselblad can talk about your system, in the case of Phase One did not. Still a lot of work on the Phase One camera system.
Sorry that I focused on the camera, but the many myths that must be overturned.
Returning to the differences between the P40 + and H4D40. AF System: Hasselblad has a much faster and more accurate autofocus (White LED), the system works perfectly True Focus (3-point autofocus system Phase One looks at it as an archaism.) Hasselblad has a range of 11 lenses
But the most important argument is the image quality. H4D40 is according to me the best camera, which was developed over the last few years. Color reproduction is excellent, the quality of images above 200ISO is unbeatable for Phase One. You could say that it is an entirely different league. Of course, "Sensor Plus" gives better results, but 10Mpix this is not what is expected for the hardware for the money. I strongly urge everyone to test and compare.
Best regards,
Design Freak
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A very brief comparison and hard to draw any conclusions from. I just compared the CFii-39MS vs Aptus 12 and tested DR, color, high iso, DOF differences, diffraction and even with all that data, the only easy thing to conclude is that the 654DF camera body isn't the equal of other alternatives. It's shutter lag, slow sync speed, and viewfinder really hurt. You push the button the viewfinder goes dark for an eternity while you hope your subject isn't moving then finally you hear the thing working. Then you look at the files - rats! Another blurry shot thanks to the dim finder, forever shutter lag and the 1/125 shutter sync (yes its that bad - even at 1/125 I had some dark banding from the shutter on the side of the frame occasionally). In the match up between the H4D-40 and the p40+, the differences in the camera bodies alone finishes the comparison. Put the p40+ on a H4D or Hy6 and then you'd have a real competition.
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I'm sure many will agree (Phase One Owners) that the AF and DF are very poor relations to the H3/4 Cameras. However it has been publicly announced by the CEO of Phase that they are developing a totally NEW camera platform and it it has any relation to other recent Phase One developments it will be amazing.
Camera aside, the main point for shooting Phase One is that many of the Blads amazing features are locked up in the H4 body. Take the camera body away and the Phase backs make so much more sense. My main reason for going down the Phase route though is how slow Hasselblad is at bringing new stuff to market or fixing existing stuff. The H4D60 is an embarrassment and is only just arriving with customers who ordered over 12/18 months ago, meanwhile Phase have moved the goal poasts again with the IQ180. Not to mention the 60's features that are still being fixed/enabled via firmware. And don't get me started on how tech camera friendly the 60 will be with its new external battery that is still in development.
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is there any official announcements about the HCD 28mm working on the H4D60 yet?
it wasnt designed to(though I am sure it does work), does that mean the 60 back just dont get any Ultra Wide?
I used to use Mamiya and I have to agree, other the being super heavy, the Hass beat the Mamiya Camera in each and every aspects
I do wish them come up with a DSLR type camera with larger than 44x33mm CCD, like a Pentax 645D but with true 645 size CCD
I'm sure many will agree (Phase One Owners) that the AF and DF are very poor relations to the H3/4 Cameras. However it has been publicly announced by the CEO of Phase that they are developing a totally NEW camera platform and it it has any relation to other recent Phase One developments it will be amazing.
Camera aside, the main point for shooting Phase One is that many of the Blads amazing features are locked up in the H4 body. Take the camera body away and the Phase backs make so much more sense. My main reason for going down the Phase route though is how slow Hasselblad is at bringing new stuff to market or fixing existing stuff. The H4D60 is an embarrassment and is only just arriving with customers who ordered over 12/18 months ago, meanwhile Phase have moved the goal poasts again with the IQ180. Not to mention the 60's features that are still being fixed/enabled via firmware. And don't get me started on how tech camera friendly the 60 will be with its new external battery that is still in development.
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What do you mean? The HCD 28 works fine on the H4D60. I don't need any official statement, I just put one on my H4D60 and see that it works. Even at full rez. it is very well usable. Cropped it will give you the same angle of view as on the 50, uncropped you even get more of a wide-angle!
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Interesting approach to the topic. The creation of an entirely new platform will take another 2 years. Unfortunately, this time we can only talk about Digital Backs of the mark Phaseone. Loading a series of "IQ" USB 3.0 was stupid. It was known that Apple will introduce Light Peak. Do you think that the simple replacement of the hardware firmawe a bad trait? This indicates that the entire structure has been very well thought out so as to be able to add new functionality. Problems with the production were associated with the fall of companies that produced components. Currently there are no problems with the acquisition H4D60. Please pray that the events in Japan have not caused problems in production. Unfortunately, Schnider and Hasselblad lenses are manufactured in Japan, like so many components that can be found in the equipment in this segment. So far no problems with availability, but this situation may change. So this situation can happen to any company.
As for the external battery H4D60, I use an external battery that I use to power my laptop for outgoing sessions. But as you have a battery with an inscription Hasselblad, what you have to wait. Just as the new lenses to the system Phaseone.
I'm sure many will agree (Phase One Owners) that the AF and DF are very poor relations to the H3/4 Cameras. However it has been publicly announced by the CEO of Phase that they are developing a totally NEW camera platform and it it has any relation to other recent Phase One developments it will be amazing.
Camera aside, the main point for shooting Phase One is that many of the Blads amazing features are locked up in the H4 body. Take the camera body away and the Phase backs make so much more sense. My main reason for going down the Phase route though is how slow Hasselblad is at bringing new stuff to market or fixing existing stuff. The H4D60 is an embarrassment and is only just arriving with customers who ordered over 12/18 months ago, meanwhile Phase have moved the goal poasts again with the IQ180. Not to mention the 60's features that are still being fixed/enabled via firmware. And don't get me started on how tech camera friendly the 60 will be with its new external battery that is still in development.
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A very brief comparison and hard to draw any conclusions from. I just compared the CFii-39MS vs Aptus 12 and tested DR, color, high iso, DOF differences, diffraction and even with all that data, the only easy thing to conclude is that the 654DF camera body isn't the equal of other alternatives. It's shutter lag, slow sync speed, and viewfinder really hurt. You push the button the viewfinder goes dark for an eternity while you hope your subject isn't moving then finally you hear the thing working. Then you look at the files - rats! Another blurry shot thanks to the dim finder, forever shutter lag and the 1/125 shutter sync (yes its that bad - even at 1/125 I had some dark banding from the shutter on the side of the frame occasionally). In the match up between the H4D-40 and the p40+, the differences in the camera bodies alone finishes the comparison. Put the p40+ on a H4D or Hy6 and then you'd have a real competition.
Hm . . I am just about to be talked into moving from H2 and Phase back to an all Phase solution with the new Schneider lenses.
Is that a change for the worse?
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Yes, that was a bit wrong maybe ;).
I am just thinking the H-system is closed and it might be time to move
to another platform. I like the Phase one backs best.
What are the choises then?
Cantax old and slow.
H2...
Phase one...
503 digital...
Does really Phase one have a worse af than Hasselblad?
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the designed image coverage for the HCD lenses were for the 1.1x crop CCD, at 49x37mm
it was not designed for the true 645 therefore they are called HCD not HC
if not I think they would have claimed the HCD28mm to be the widest 645 lens ever produced
What do you mean? The HCD 28 works fine on the H4D60. I don't need any official statement, I just put one on my H4D60 and see that it works. Even at full rez. it is very well usable. Cropped it will give you the same angle of view as on the 50, uncropped you even get more of a wide-angle!
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the designed image coverage for the HCD lenses were for the 1.1x crop CCD, at 49x37mm
it was not designed for the true 645 therefore they are called HCD not HC
if not I think they would have claimed the HCD28mm to be the widest 645 lens ever produced
They wouldn't be able to make such a statement anyway given that there is a Phase One 28mm rectilinear lens which covers 645 and a Mamiya 24mm fisheye lens.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
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Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
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the designed image coverage for the HCD lenses were for the 1.1x crop CCD, at 49x37mm
it was not designed for the true 645 therefore they are called HCD not HC
if not I think they would have claimed the HCD28mm to be the widest 645 lens ever produced
I know but I get tired of people telling others you cannot use the HCD lenses on the H4D60. BTW, the lenses are called HCD where the D stands for digital and not particularly the 49x37 format (even though that was the largest sensor format available at that time and it is designed with that being the maximum format), ie. the lenses cannot be used on film H bodies (with the exception of the H2F + CF back).
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Interesting though that the redesigned 50mm HC lens is not an HCD50 but an HC50 MkII. No "D" in the name and no crop factror for the H4D-60. I assume that when the 28mm HCD was designed. Hassy assumed its coverage would be sufficient for any future Hasselblad digital back. They could not have anticipated the H4D-60 otherwise they would surely have designed the 28mm with a slightly larger image circle.
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I think you might be hitting the nail on the head there.
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design_freak,
I don't think utilizing USB 2/3 connectivity was a bad move. USB 3 is the volume leader, thanks to its backwards compatibility with 1 billion+ USB 2.0 ports.
There are some very large markets that a more PC based than Apple. USB has been a standard transfer technology for many years and has a proven track record and USB 3 being the next generation with backwards compatibility.
At least Phase One is looking at offering alternatives if in fact Firewire goes away. I haven't seen any other manufacturer build multiple interfaces into their backs.
It has been announced Apple has a 1 to 1.5 year exclusive on Lightpeak/Thunderbolt, don't you think that will have some effect on peripheral manufacturers adopting it over USB 3 since there are many more PC's out there in the world?
Steve Jobs is not always correct...
L
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Interesting though that the redesigned 50mm HC lens is not an HCD50 but an HC50 MkII. No "D" in the name and no crop factror for the H4D-60. I assume that when the 28mm HCD was designed. Hassy assumed its coverage would be sufficient for any future Hasselblad digital back. They could not have anticipated the H4D-60 otherwise they would surely have designed the 28mm with a slightly larger image circle.
I cannot understand why they did the 28 and the 35-90 HCD
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Do you use PC with Windows for capture ???! I think 95% of all professional photographers use Apple for capture ( Digital Back users). USB 3.0 only make sense... Backwards compatibility ??? (USB 2.0, USB 1.0 ) For Whom???
Anyway Canon will use Thunderbolt technology...
And "one more thing"
Stave have always right ;-)
If they want to sell a lot of equipment, they need to produce everything what Apple want. It's a very big market... Everybody want to earn money ...
Best regards,
Design Freak
I don't think utilizing USB 2/3 connectivity was a bad move. USB 3 is the volume leader, thanks to its backwards compatibility with 1 billion+ USB 2.0 ports.
There are some very large markets that a more PC based than Apple. USB has been a standard transfer technology for many years and has a proven track record and USB 3 being the next generation with backwards compatibility.
At least Phase One is looking at offering alternatives if in fact Firewire goes away. I haven't seen any other manufacturer build multiple interfaces into their backs.
It has been announced Apple has a 1 to 1.5 year exclusive on Lightpeak/Thunderbolt, don't you think that will have some effect on peripheral manufacturers adopting it over USB 3 since there are many more PC's out there in the world?
Steve Jobs is not always correct...
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Well, at the time thinking sensors would not get bigger and keeping the prices of these lenses at an 'acceptable' level does make sense. Lets face it you think 5000euros for a 22MP H3DII is already too much, would you like to pay 5K euros or more for a HC28? Lets not even think about the price of a HC35-90...
Anyway these lenses are there at this moment and AS AN ACTUAL USER of a H4D60 with both the HCD28 as well as the HCD35-90 I can assure you I hardly notice (not at all actually in most real day to day uses) that this lens is not meant for the sensor size of the 60.
The only people I hear 'complaining' about this are the ones that do not use it, it seems...
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Lets face it you think 5000euros for a 22MP H3DII is already too much, would you like to pay 5K euros or more for a HC28? Lets not even think about the price of a HC35-90...
not at all , you keep the lenses but not the body ... the body is nothing but a sensor with a click ... a kind of mouse for computers
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The Hasselblad 28mm lens is another similar issue to my statement earlier about the speed of products to market and the on going fixes to get stuff working and the reason why I went Phase One.
For a company to design a lens that does not cover full frame on a 645 body because they feel a full frame 645 chip won't be developed anytime soon is a ridiculous notion. ??? I don't care what you say as a H4D60 owner, a few millimetres crop is still a crop off the full frame and a major foresight on Hasselblads part.
My argument is that while Hasselblad are designing/fixing/releasing products for now, Phase are dreaming up the new stuff for the future and to me would be a worrying position to be in as if I was a Hasselblad owner.
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I don't get you, why would I be worried about P1? Hasselblad serves me well, how P1 is doing has nothing to do with that. Who said anything about a crop? You can use the HCD lenses without a crop too. Why would the HCD28 be an on-going fix??
You guys are not making a lot of sense. If P1 is what you like to use, go ahead and use it. If you have hands on experiences with the stuff you are talking about fine but in this case I am starting to wonder whether either of you have (HCD lenses and the H4D60). So you don't care what real users say about something but you do want to persist in making your own firm statements about tools you don't own or use? Fine, say whatever you like...
For the record, there are a lot of things I really like about P1 and Leaf (having used one for years).
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I don't get you, why would I be worried about P1? Hasselblad serves me well, how P1 is doing has nothing to do with that. Who said anything about a crop? You can use the HCD lenses without a crop too. Why would the HCD28 be an on-going fix??
You guys are not making a lot of sense. If P1 is what you like to use, go ahead and use it. If you have hands on experiences with the stuff you are talking about fine but in this case I am starting to wonder whether either of you have (HCD lenses and the H4D60). So you don't care what real users say about something but you do want to persist in making your own firm statements about tools you don't own or use? Fine, say whatever you like...
For the record, there are a lot of things I really like about P1 and Leaf (having used one for years).
I don't think anyone is saying Hasselblad don't make great products its just lately their vision doesn't seem to match Phases's. If the performance of the 28mm doesn't bother you than thats fine but when I was looking into both systems recently little things like that, on how the company must think when developing new products just bothered me. And as for being worried by Phase One, you are right directly you shouldn't be bothered in the slightest but looking as I did without preferences the Phase system just seemed to be going somewhere. Unless you rent your equipment then yes, long term potentially you should be worried if you value your investment.
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I don't think anyone is saying Hasselblad don't make great products its just lately their vision doesn't seem to match Phases's. If the performance of the 28mm doesn't bother you than thats fine but when I was looking into both systems recently little things like that, on how the company must think when developing new products just bothered me. And as for being worried by Phase One, you are right directly you shouldn't be bothered in the slightest but looking as I did without preferences the Phase system just seemed to be going somewhere. Unless you rent your equipment then yes, long term potentially you should be worried if you value your investment.
IMHO, if Phase really had the vision you talk about they would have bought into a better camera platform than the mamiya 645, just one example being the Rollei Hy6, which they probably could still do. Even after multiple updates the camera is not up to the job and clearly not the equal of other existing platforms. Does that cry out vision to you? Sure they did introduce a few leaf shutter lenses but these won't fix all the limitations of the body. Recently I shot with the 645DF and the 80mm lens with leaf shutter. The higher sync of the leaf shutter was appreciated, but still did nothing for the shutter lag. Very curious to know what Phase will bring to the table with the new camera mentioned but how long will we have to wait for that?
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My argument is that while Hasselblad are designing/fixing/releasing products for now, Phase are dreaming up the new stuff for the future and to me would be a worrying position to be in as if I was a Hasselblad owner.
If a touch screen and 80MP are on your list of 'must haves' then perhaps I could agree. Although you should really compliment Leaf for that technology, not Phase One.
If on the other hand in your Camera system you would prefer...
• 11 High performance lenses – all with lens shutter and in-built AF motors
• Fully automatic digital lens corrections for all H lenses – no manual lens selection. Uses actual capture conditions reported automatically by the lens
• Instant manual focus override – no need for manual switching of focus mode
• HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shift converter with 5 lenses including automatic digital lens correction
• CF lens adapter for Carl Zeiss C/CF lenses with full lens shutter operation
• Digital lens correction for all Carl Zeiss lenses
• Advanced auto-focus system including gyro based True Focus
• Interchangeable viewfinders
• Larger and brighter viewfinder image
• Excellent ergonomics
• Camera mirror-up mode, for zero vibration captures. Mirror remains UP between captures.
• 4 User programmable buttons, for short-cuts to the most used functions
• 7 user profiles storing complete camera set-up, for fast and safe access to different modes of operation
• Convenient single battery solution – only one battery type and charger required
• DC Power Grip, for powering the camera from mains power
• Full camera remote control via Phocus and Phocus Mobile for iPad and iPhone. Remote camera control includes focussing via control of the AF motor
• Fully user upgradeable camera firmware for viewfinder, camera and lenses. No need to return to the service centre
• GPS accessory
• Multi-shot functionality option
• IAA – Instant Approval Architecture for manual or automatic classification of images in the camera
• Rollei- and Schneider electronic shutter control for View Camera use
• Single color profile delivering outstanding colors – no need for profile selection depending on the subject.
Then my opinion differs somewhat.
David
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That's pretty much why I chose the Hasselblad (H4D-50) route. The Hassy system is a system, whereas the Phase One equivalent seemed to me to be a disparate collection of parts yet to form a true system.
It was simply no contest.
Quentin
If a touch screen and 80MP are on your list of 'must haves' then perhaps I could agree. Although you should really compliment Leaf for that technology, not Phase One.
If on the other hand in your Camera system you would prefer.
• 11 High performance lenses – all with lens shutter and in-built AF motors
• Fully automatic digital lens corrections for all H lenses – no manual lens selection. Uses actual capture conditions reported automatically by the lens
• Instant manual focus override – no need for manual switching of focus mode
• HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shift converter with 5 lenses including automatic digital lens correction
• CF lens adapter for Carl Zeiss C/CF lenses with full lens shutter operation
• Digital lens correction for all Carl Zeiss lenses
• Advanced auto-focus system including gyro based True Focus
• Interchangeable viewfinders
• Larger and brighter viewfinder image
• Excellent ergonomics
• Camera mirror-up mode, for zero vibration captures. Mirror remains UP between captures.
• 4 User programmable buttons, for short-cuts to the most used functions
• 7 user profiles storing complete camera set-up, for fast and safe access to different modes of operation
• Convenient single battery solution – only one battery type and charger required
• DC Power Grip, for powering the camera from mains power
• Full camera remote control via Phocus and Phocus Mobile for iPad and iPhone. Remote camera control includes focussing via control of the AF motor
• Fully user upgradeable camera firmware for viewfinder, camera and lenses. No need to return to the service centre
• GPS accessory
• Multi-shot functionality option
• IAA – Instant Approval Architecture for manual or automatic classification of images in the camera
• Rollei- and Schneider electronic shutter control for View Camera use
• Single color profile delivering outstanding colors – no need for profile selection depending on the subject.
Then my opinion differs somewhat.
David
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If a touch screen and 80MP are on your list of 'must haves' then perhaps I could agree. Although you should really compliment Leaf for that technology, not Phase One.
If on the other hand in your Camera system you would prefer...
• 11 High performance lenses – all with lens shutter and in-built AF motors
• Fully automatic digital lens corrections for all H lenses – no manual lens selection. Uses actual capture conditions reported automatically by the lens
• Instant manual focus override – no need for manual switching of focus mode
• HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shift converter with 5 lenses including automatic digital lens correction
• CF lens adapter for Carl Zeiss C/CF lenses with full lens shutter operation
• Digital lens correction for all Carl Zeiss lenses
• Advanced auto-focus system including gyro based True Focus
• Interchangeable viewfinders
• Larger and brighter viewfinder image
• Excellent ergonomics
• Camera mirror-up mode, for zero vibration captures. Mirror remains UP between captures.
• 4 User programmable buttons, for short-cuts to the most used functions
• 7 user profiles storing complete camera set-up, for fast and safe access to different modes of operation
• Convenient single battery solution – only one battery type and charger required
• DC Power Grip, for powering the camera from mains power
• Full camera remote control via Phocus and Phocus Mobile for iPad and iPhone. Remote camera control includes focussing via control of the AF motor
• Fully user upgradeable camera firmware for viewfinder, camera and lenses. No need to return to the service centre
• GPS accessory
• Multi-shot functionality option
• IAA – Instant Approval Architecture for manual or automatic classification of images in the camera
• Rollei- and Schneider electronic shutter control for View Camera use
• Single color profile delivering outstanding colors – no need for profile selection depending on the subject.
Then my opinion differs somewhat.
David
Nice list David, I knew there was a reason I bought Hasselblad. You just have to love that closed system ::)
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Does the "closedness" of the Hassy have some real advantage?
Its hard to believe it was only a marketing decision ....
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Absolutely Christoph!
Please refer to my list above! And...
- HTS would not be as useful without it.
- A very basic thing - One battery, one charger, one power button.
- Custom calibration of an expensive precision instrument - would you not expect anything less?
- Automatic lens corrections based on data at time of shooting. No need to waste your time correcting individual images or in a batch.
- Remote focussing of the camera... remote control of the camera.
- Phocus mobile...
The H system was designed with a very simple but powerful network to be able to pass data from all components to another. This means even the viewfinder can be programmed to give different information for when we give firmware updates.
Incidentally any customer can update the firmware on their camera via our software simply through the normal firewire connection. You do not need to but any expensive accessories or send the camera to a service centre.
There is a lot more to a camera than simply the number of MP's.
And so on.
Having control over the system from back to front means advantages to all.
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Thank you very much David for the answer.
I'd like to hear something from the Phase side about this too.
Actually I'd wish the camera companies would develop an open standard for component communication,
since if I'm not mistaken what you describe should all be possible in an open system as well, including custom calibration.
I strongly believe in seeing equipment as a system, but still can't see why closedness is necessary to achieve that.
Sometimes I wish companies should be forced by law to open and document their interfaces.
I'd also like to know, why the points you were mentioning would require a closed system.
The only MF system I own is a fairly complete Mamiya Universal/Super23 camera and I'm tempted to get into digital MF one day. But when I read about compatibility issues and company politics my stomach turns upside down and I step back, especially when thinking about spending such a huge pile of money.
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If a touch screen and 80MP are on your list of 'must haves' then perhaps I could agree. Although you should really compliment Leaf for that technology, not Phase One.
If on the other hand in your Camera system you would prefer...
• 11 High performance lenses – all with lens shutter and in-built AF motors
• Fully automatic digital lens corrections for all H lenses – no manual lens selection. Uses actual capture conditions reported automatically by the lens
• Instant manual focus override – no need for manual switching of focus mode
• HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shift converter with 5 lenses including automatic digital lens correction
• CF lens adapter for Carl Zeiss C/CF lenses with full lens shutter operation
• Digital lens correction for all Carl Zeiss lenses
• Advanced auto-focus system including gyro based True Focus
• Interchangeable viewfinders
• Larger and brighter viewfinder image
• Excellent ergonomics
• Camera mirror-up mode, for zero vibration captures. Mirror remains UP between captures.
• 4 User programmable buttons, for short-cuts to the most used functions
• 7 user profiles storing complete camera set-up, for fast and safe access to different modes of operation
• Convenient single battery solution – only one battery type and charger required
• DC Power Grip, for powering the camera from mains power
• Full camera remote control via Phocus and Phocus Mobile for iPad and iPhone. Remote camera control includes focussing via control of the AF motor
• Fully user upgradeable camera firmware for viewfinder, camera and lenses. No need to return to the service centre
• GPS accessory
• Multi-shot functionality option
• IAA – Instant Approval Architecture for manual or automatic classification of images in the camera
• Rollei- and Schneider electronic shutter control for View Camera use
• Single color profile delivering outstanding colors – no need for profile selection depending on the subject.
Then my opinion differs somewhat.
David
Just a few rejoinders to this extensive list so it doesn't seem so, oh, I don't know, one sided? :)
Phase One Camera Options
* Over 17 current and active lenses to choose from Mamiya and Schneider with 4 of them in Leaf Shutter, all of which were introduced in the past
2 years. How many leaf Shutter lenses has Hasselblad introduced in this period?
* Fastest flash sync (up to 1/1600th) and shutter speed (1/4000th) of any medium format system.
* Automatic lens corrections for Hasselblad H lenses, Hasselblad V lenses, Contax lenses, and Phase/Mamiya lenses. Also, the ability to manually
override these controls and customize them. I didn't realize that anyone would see the ability to customize your lens corrections as a negative.
* Lens corrections offered:
--- Hasselblad Lens Corrections: Chromatic Aberration, Distortion, Vignetting (positive only). All automatic (no manual override).
--- Phase One Lens Corrections: Chromatic Aberration, Distortion, Vignetting (positive and negative), Purple Fringing, Light Falloff (positive and
negative), Edge Sharpening Mask, Automatic and Manual Control.
* Hasselblad Lens Adapter that accepts not just CF lenses but also FE lenses.
* Yes, a DC Power Option
* Vertical Grip with built-in wireless sync and on battery type and charger required.
* In Camera approval system
* One button on/off (with IQ series)
* Single color profile for outstanding color reproduction….with the option of using and creating additional profiles.
* Largest square sensor option (40mm) and highest resolution (60MP - 80MP) for the Hasselblad V Series cameras.
* Ability to go on almost any medium or large format camera with a range of products from 31MP - 80MP.
Phase One Significant Unmatched Historical Technology Landmarks
* First firewire-based digital back with high quality single shot capture (back in the late 1990's).
* Only digital backs produced capable of performing long exposure times that can run up to an hour or longer (despite competitors having access to the same exact sensor).
* Only digital backs with Sensor Plus technology, allowing one to choose (currently) 80MP or 20MP captures and adjust sensitivity and capture rates,
while still recording data over the entire sensor area with no crop.
* Highest resolution display screen of any professional still camera, and includes iPhone/iPad-oriented interface technology.
* Only digital back with a USB option (that can use USB 2 in the field with a MacBook Air, for example, or USB 3 with a MBP or Mac Pro with a USB 3
Interface Card).
* Utilizes Capture One software, which is by far, the best quality software offered for any digital back, and has been for over a decade.
* There will be more to come.
Phase One consistently maintains a 2 year digital back sensor and technology lead over Hasselblad. I appreciate the Phase One DF camera for what it is, and I also appreciate the Hasselblad H system for what it is. Heck, we still have clients who steadfastly order Phase One and Leaf/Mamiya backs on Contax 645 cameras, and yes, I appreciate that camera as well. Many of our clients still order upgrades for their H1 and H2 cameras. Minus a few limitations, they don't have to choose between Phase One and Hasselblad digital backs. They can maintain their H cameras and continue to advance with Phase One digital backs.
Considering what Phase One had to work with, I think they have done an excellent job of improving the Mamiya 645 platform, especially by developing the relationship with Schneider as a high quality optical partner. While the Hy6 camera may have been a tempting project, I feel that from a long term growth and developmental standpoint, the choice of Mamiya as a partner will provide superior benefits over time. With Leaf as a division and the formal relationship with Schneider, for all we know the next Phase One cameras may prove to be a more desirable platform than even the Hy6/AFi. New camera designs take time and money, and as has been noted, 2 new cameras are in development. But for now, there are still many positives for many types of photography with the 645 DF camera, and if its limitations are in the way, a Hasselblad H1/H2 camera can still allow you to go forward with Phase One.
I would also note that Phase One has been a profitable company, even in the wake of this economic period of the past several years. And in addition, within that period, they have acquired complete or controlling interests in 3 major technology companies (Leaf, Mamiya, and Expressions Media). Clearly, Phase One is a strong company and growing.
By the way, David, Leaf had nothing to do with the IQ Series screen technology, which is really not "touch screen" at all, at least not in the way that the Leaf Aptus is "touch screen". You don't actually have to touch it. Instead, it operates via a magnetic field, similar to the way an iPhone or iPad work. I feel the technology and interface of the IQ series is quite significant and will - to many - make other products feel clunky and slow. In terms of seamless operability, the IQ series will work much like we have become accustomed to with modern devices, rather than the inexorable buttons and menus of previous capture systems.
Steve Hendrix
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Ah! Battle Swords drawn! ;D
The HC120II, HC50II were introduced last year. The HTS and 35-90 are also fairly recent additions.
The reason why we have not introduced more lenses is that we already have a complete range of Autofocus and Central Shutter lenses.
Does the CF lens adapter have full aperture / stop down control?
Saying that Phase One has been two years ahead in terms of digital back technology depends in what you are looking for in a digital back. Outright Megapixels? Sure, I will conceed that. But if it is anything else with regards to a system, there are many more advantages to Hasselblad.
David
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In fact one reason I gave up on the Mamiya and went to Hass was their poorly built camera body
the Hass camera is very nicely built, although heavy
their lenses, well lets say I am not the biggest fan of Fujinon, but still better than the Mamiya, and you can always go back to their CF although you lose the auto aperture ability
and you can choose to use a wasit level finder like a true MF camera, although the major problem with this is that the CCD is landscape not portrait, and Hass back doesnt offer the rotating CCD like the Phase/Leaf, so you are limited to landscape composition on this
I would love to see Hass come up with a solution for this, something similar to the rotation CCD
some talk about the 1/800sec shutter, yes I would like to see 1/4000, or at least 1/2000, but it isnt the end of the world, if you must shoot in large aperture under the sun you can use a ND filter
for the HCD lenses, its good to hear from actual user, but I really hope to hear from Hass themselves though, if they now say HCD works on the H4D60 then why separate a HCD line, was it purely a marketing thing intend to charge us more?
I would say the Hass has still a lot of potential, they started on the right path, they just need to continue doing the right thing
whereas the Phase/Leaf, their backs are really in front of Hass, but they dont have the camera to back it up
perhaps one could use a Phase/Leaf back on a H4D, but I personally think you might as well stick with the Hass back
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In fact one reason I gave up on the Mamiya and went to Hass was their poorly built camera body
the Hass camera is very nicely built, although heavy
When I tested the DF and H4 I found it quite the opposite. I thought the H4 was a wonderful camera and wished it functioned with other (Phase One) backs and the build quality of the lenses was amazing but I didn't feel it was better made. Yes, it had more buttons and technology but the battery grip seemed to creak and moan when you held it and the handgrip LCD area, which offered a weath of information at a glance seemed a bit cheaply made to me.
In comparison, the DF was very basic and straight forward and seemed very agricultural next to the H4 and that included its build. A camera lump and apart from the battery chamber very well put together. The lenses (I tried the 120 macro, 28mm and leaf shutter ones) were not as well made as the Fujinon ones but the optics were razor sharp and better to my eyes.
Also, although it was a couple of days apart, I thought the viewfinder image in the DF to be brighter than the H4 even though everything I had read suggested different. Could of been a lens thing, I'm not sure but that was my instant feeling.
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So - we call it a draw?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno
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So - we call it a draw?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno
Lol.
Yes, lets.
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their lenses, well lets say I am not the biggest fan of Fujinon, but still better than the Mamiya, and you can always go back to their CF although you lose the auto aperture ability
Hi Donald,
Auto aperture is retained.
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both systems have their merits.
it's just a shame that camera/back manufacturers are limited by what the sensor manufacturers decide to produce.
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I mean when I stop down the lens I have to physically stop it down before shooting right?
I thought only CFE gets also aperture
Hi Donald,
Auto aperture is retained.
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maybe I should give the newest update of the mamiya a test
I tested the Hy6 and although its great
I wasnt convinced that it would provide the same support and I am worried about its future
what is the difference between Leaf/Phase/Mamiya body anyways?
When I tested the DF and H4 I found it quite the opposite. I thought the H4 was a wonderful camera and wished it functioned with other (Phase One) backs and the build quality of the lenses was amazing but I didn't feel it was better made. Yes, it had more buttons and technology but the battery grip seemed to creak and moan when you held it and the handgrip LCD area, which offered a weath of information at a glance seemed a bit cheaply made to me.
In comparison, the DF was very basic and straight forward and seemed very agricultural next to the H4 and that included its build. A camera lump and apart from the battery chamber very well put together. The lenses (I tried the 120 macro, 28mm and leaf shutter ones) were not as well made as the Fujinon ones but the optics were razor sharp and better to my eyes.
Also, although it was a couple of days apart, I thought the viewfinder image in the DF to be brighter than the H4 even though everything I had read suggested different. Could of been a lens thing, I'm not sure but that was my instant feeling.
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I mean when I stop down the lens I have to physically stop it down before shooting right?
I thought only CFE gets also aperture
The lens remains open regardless of aperture set. When you shoot, the aperture is stopped down by the camera.
You still have to manually set your working aperture of course, there is no way to do that - other than turning the aperture ring.
The H light meter will tell you what aperture to set.
D
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Ah! Battle Swords drawn! ;D
The HC120II, HC50II were introduced last year. The HTS and 35-90 are also fairly recent additions.
The reason why we have not introduced more lenses is that we already have a complete range of Autofocus and Central Shutter lenses.
Does the CF lens adapter have full aperture / stop down control?
Saying that Phase One has been two years ahead in terms of digital back technology depends in what you are looking for in a digital back. Outright Megapixels? Sure, I will conceed that. But if it is anything else with regards to a system, there are many more advantages to Hasselblad.
David
Yes - Flame On! :D
Does the CF Lens Adapter have full aperture/stop down control? Why David, that sounds like a negative leading question from a competitor and eerily familiar to someone you and I have both talked about! ;) (inside joke between David and I)
No, the Phase One/Mamiya CF/FE Lens Adapter does not have full aperture stop down. So, one penalty point, but one gold star for being compatible with FE lenses (since the Hasselblad CF Lens Adapter is not).
Are the 50mm and 120mm new designs? Or updates of the existing lenses? Should they really count? The HTS does have optics inside it, so I suppose you could count that, but seems like a stretch. The reason I note the recent additions is that while yes, Hasselblad has a full lineup, Phase One/Mamiya has been more productive in the past several years in terms of new Leaf Shutter lenses and indeed, new lenses overall. If you count focal plane shutter lenses then the recent lens additions are:
Schneider
*55/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*80/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*110/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*150/3.5 Leaf Shutter
*120/5.6 Tilt Shift Focal Plane
Mamiya
*35mm/3.5 Focal Plane
*120mm/4 Macro AF Focal Plane
I stand by my statement regarding Phase One digital back innovational advantages.
*Ultra Long Exposure
*Variable Resolution
*Variable Capture Rate
*Ultra High Retina-Type Display
*Larger Sensors
*Higher Megapixel Count
*Multiple Interfaces, including firewire and USB
*UDMA 6 compatible media ready
Hasselblad has either never matched these capabilities with their digital backs or at best, been years behind. Other than, yes, that Hasselblad digital backs can accept information from their own camera system, which adds some functionality and corrects deficiencies, please tell me what innovational advantages Hasselblad digital backs have over Phase One digital backs (from a current or historical perspective). I would also point out that the above unique Phase One innovations are available to any user on many different camera platforms, including view and technical cameras, and yes, Hasselblad H cameras (H1/H2). This is not a bash of closed/open. I've never really cared for nor joined that argument. Simply pointing out that the Phase One digital back innovations are not restricted only to Hasselbald H users, which I feel is relevant.
Steve Hendrix
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Schneider
*55/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*80/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*110/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*150/3.5 Leaf Shutter
*120/5.6 Tilt Shift Focal Plane
Steve,
The leaf shutter lenses are certainly a great boon to the platform, but I have to say the 80mm for mamiya is not very similar to the 80mm Schneider made for the Rollei (and maybe other 6x6 cameras?). I shot the 80mm on the 645DF with aptus 12 side by side with the schneider 80mm on 6008AF with CF-39MS back fitted. Too many variables to draw a straight conclusion but it appeared the 80mm for mamiya/phase lacked the punch of the Xenotar and had more distortion as well (but was well corrected for in C1). I think I read that Schneider only assisted with the design of these but didn't make them correct? I would like to have tested the 120 tilt shift as that should be a useful lens.
Eric
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Steve,
The leaf shutter lenses are certainly a great boon to the platform, but I have to say the 80mm for mamiya is not very similar to the 80mm Schneider made for the Rollei (and maybe other 6x6 cameras?). I shot the 80mm on the 645DF with aptus 12 side by side with the schneider 80mm on 6008AF with CF-39MS back fitted. Too many variables to draw a straight conclusion but it appeared the 80mm for mamiya/phase lacked the punch of the Xenotar and had more distortion as well (but was well corrected for in C1). I think I read that Schneider only assisted with the design of these but didn't make them correct? I would like to have tested the 120 tilt shift as that should be a useful lens.
Eric
I had a long discussion with Ulrich Eilsberger last fall about the Schneider involvement with the lenses and the commitment to the platform.
http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/11/17/an-impressive-stable-of-technology/
What I took from the discussion was that the idea of who does what has been over simplified when put in terms of "yes, but whose glass", "yes, but who makes it". And others can pipe in on lens production and processes, but Schneider is certainly responsible for the design (or re-design) and measurement for the optical components themselves, which is a critical factor naturally in the process of the manufacturing of the lens itself. At least on some of them, I don't know how much of the actual compositing and manufacturing Schneider will bear the load of as this relationship continues to evolve.
So, the new Schneider lenses for Mamiya wouldn't necessarily be similar to a previous Rollei-based Schneider. It's a new design, and made for a different camera platform, of course. The significance I draw is that Schneider is now a partner to this platform and the partnership is formal and long term. Having Schneider as a partner to create lenses for your camera platform (not just the DF camera, but future cameras) for the next 10 years is a very good thing IMO.
Steve Hendrix
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Phase One consistently maintains a 2 year digital back sensor and technology lead over Hasselblad.
Steve Hendrix
This is a fairly new but interesting bit. The only case this happen was the P65+ vs H4D-60. Your confidence that this will be the case again (with the 80mpixel sensor) tell me that the exclusive deal btw Dalsa and Phase continues. It is important to notice that the advantage is in only one sensor. Of course Phase One has sensor plus. In the other hand, it looks like Hasselblad chipset hardly can handle the 60mpixel back. I still believe the H4D is the better option for a lot of people (including mysef) because:
1. Is the most complete, mature system.
2. Most people don't have the money to buy the very high end.
best regards
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Ah! Battle Swords drawn! ;D
The HC120II, HC50II were introduced last year. The HTS and 35-90 are also fairly recent additions.
The reason why we have not introduced more lenses is that we already have a complete range of Autofocus and Central Shutter lenses.
David
No you don't. In fact you are the only company that has a complete system that don't have a >100mm fast lens (f2.8 ) of any kind. Notice that I am aware that Phase can't be called a complete system and they know. They are working as fast as they can to solve the issues. they are makin visible progress. If hasselblad continues to have the complacency mind set you are for a surprise. You can tell from the iq series, wireless adapter and the Sensor+ technology that Phase one is investing a lot. They are investing like a winner. We can have an inside into the Phase one mind by listening carefully to Michael R. He stated the time frame Hasselblad needed to build the H. How long has since Hasselblad close the system?
Finally let not forget about Pentax. If not careful Hasselblad is about to become compress from below by Pentax and by Phase from the top.
Best regards,
James
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1. Is the most complete, mature system.
2. Most people don't have the money to buy the very high end.
3. who needs 80 MP ?
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3. who needs 80 MP ?
Erick - you better stop right now! >:(
;D ;D ;D
Steve Hendrix
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;D
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This is a fairly new but interesting bit. The only case this happen was the P65+ vs H4D-60. Your confidence that this will be the case again (with the 80mpixel sensor) tell me that the exclusive deal btw Dalsa and Phase continues. It is important to notice that the advantage is in only one sensor. Of course Phase One has sensor plus. In the other hand, it looks like Hasselblad chipset hardly can handle the 60mpixel back. I still believe the H4D is the better option for a lot of people (including mysef) because:
1. Is the most complete, mature system.
2. Most people don't have the money to buy the very high end.
best regards
jduncan -
I don't refer only to the delivery time of the 60MP Dalsa sensor. And also, I don't believe the 2 year difference in delivery time had anything to do with exclusivity. Shortly after Phase One announced the P65+, Hasselblad announced the H3D-60.
http://www.dcviews.com/press/PhaseOne-P65.htm
http://www.mydigitallife.info/2008/10/02/hasselblad-readies-60-megapixel-camera-h3dii-60/
I also refer to compact flash-based portability. For quite some time after Phase One had a CF Card slot, Hasselblad (Imacon) still only offered the Imagebank option for non-tethered shooting. Hasselbald never achieved a long exposure possibility past 30 seconds while Phase One offered long exposures up to an hour with the same Kodak-based sensors. Hasselblad has nothing like Sensor Plus and instead, every capture must be at full resolution and the ISO range and capture rate are limited compared to the same Dalsa-based sensors with the P40+/65+ and IQ backs. I don't expect Hasselblad to offer anything approaching the technology of the IQ series for quite some time. If they do, then things will have changed. But there's no evidence of that thus far.
I don't think it is an invalid point or even that debatable, really. Hasselblad makes a fine digital back, but it has always been behind Phase One IMO.
Steve Hendrix
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Steve,
I have never seen a multishot P1. Let alone a 6-shot 200MP P1 (count to think of it I have not yet seen one of those from HB either). I think HB is 2 years behind in sensor technology is a statement exaggerated and way too bold. In some areas maybe, in others? I don't know. Granted, P1 has some really compelling stuff at the moment. I also believe that at this moment HB is behind P1 in general with regard to the sensor, things can change over time though.
Personally I think both P1 as well as Hasselblad are staring at each other way too much and forgetting the true danger is DSLR. A person buying into P1, HB or Leaf is still someone using MF...
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Steve,
I have never seen a multishot P1. Let alone a 6-shot 200MP P1 (count to think of it I have not yet seen one of those from HB either). I think HB is 2 years behind in sensor technology is a statement exaggerated and way too bold. In some areas maybe, in others? I don't know. Granted, P1 has some really compelling stuff at the moment. I also believe that at this moment HB is behind P1 in general with regard to the sensor, things can change over time though.
Personally I think both P1 as well as Hasselblad are staring at each other way too much and forgetting the true danger is DSLR. A person buying into P1, HB or Leaf is still someone using MF...
Agreed - although multi-shot is not an exclusive Hasselblad technology. Leaf and Sinar were doing multi-shot for years before Hasselblad. And while multi-shot has advantages, those advantages have diminished in recent years, and it is only offered in one sensor product, wereas the Phase One technologies have been offered across numerous sensor products (16mp, 18mp, 22mp, 30mp, 39mp, 40mp, 60mp, 80mp...). But fair point, all of the digital back products each have their own unique feature set.
While perceptively it may feel as if Phase One and Hasselblad are focused only on competing with each other, I don't feel that is the case at all. They are very aware of DSLR infringement into their category and have been for years. The impulse is to assume they are blind or stupid, when instead they are limited by technology, development time and costs. If Canon/Nikon were limited to CCD-based sensors, their market penetration with medium format users might be less than what it has been. With that said, scaling sensor technology that is as forgiving of high temperature and power requirements as CMOS sensors are has been on the blocks for quite some time. That it is not here yet does not mean they are blind to what Canon/Nikon have accomplished. Instead, I think they have done a good job of emphasizing the strengths and advantages they do possess. And frankly, I feel that a large part of what separates Canon/Nikon from medium format is cost, more than features.
Even if Phase One comes out with a 54 x 40 CMOS-type sensor in 2014, I don't expect it to have a large impact on the market that shoots with Canon/Nikon because of the price. That is why to a degree they need to keep their eye on their own ball and what it does well in addition to making these products easier to use and more functional along the lines of Canon/Nikon. if only because, regardless of the cost, that is what users expect today and medium format has to address that issue. I believe the IQ Series are a significant step in that direction.
Steve Hendrix
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I was thinking about the MS backs too, Dusbak. In my own tests the old 16 shot microstep backs (from what year 2004?) still produce a superior file to the new 80mp backs. In my tests the big differences between the 528c and the Aptus 12 (IQ 180 the same?) were in the color and rendered tonality, but the 528c also got more detail. I only had the phase/mamiya/schneider 80mm lens which I already wrote about above - perhaps with a better lens like in your map tests vs the H4D-50MS it would be closer?. Anyhow the new 80mp backs definitely offer an advantage in the single shot, but its still not the best IQ, IMHO, and the thought that a now 7 year old back can beat the latest and greatest prefaces all my thinking about which company has the most advanced technology. We always gain something at the expense of something else. For example, the long exposures that the phase plus series backs had has been lost in the p65 and newer phase IQ series.
To me both Phase and Hasselblad have their own advantages. Phase has the C1 software and the new IQ screen/interface and long exposure in the older backs. Hasselblad has the camera, the HTS, and MS backs including the 6shot - 200mp back. If you are not using an H body or 645DF, I think Hasselblad has the better integration - certainly with the technical cameras and stuff like the lens control. And Phocus is coming up fast, so hard to rule it out. Their DAC seem to be more comprehensive plus the remote operations by iphone is cool. And in a discussion about technical leaders, Leaf needs to be added to the mix because they have the rotating sensor, sensor flex, the articulating touch screen.
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"Even if Phase One comes out with a 54 x 40 CMOS-type sensor in 2014"
are phase developing their own sensor now? or will they (like the others) be tied to what the sensor manufacturers produce?
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comes out with a 54 x 40
Native 54 x 40 has been around for ages.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vKYKgsxSuQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
IMO
BC
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I was thinking about the MS backs too, Dusbak. In my own tests the old 16 shot microstep backs (from what year 2004?) still produce a superior file to the new 80mp backs. In my tests the big differences between the 528c and the Aptus 12 (IQ 180 the same?) were in the color and rendered tonality, but the 528c also got more detail. I only had the phase/mamiya/schneider 80mm lens which I already wrote about above - perhaps with a better lens like in your map tests vs the H4D-50MS it would be closer?. Anyhow the new 80mp backs definitely offer an advantage in the single shot, but its still not the best IQ, IMHO, and the thought that a now 7 year old back can beat the latest and greatest prefaces all my thinking about which company has the most advanced technology. We always gain something at the expense of something else. For example, the long exposures that the phase plus series backs had has been lost in the p65 and newer phase IQ series.
To me both Phase and Hasselblad have their own advantages. Phase has the C1 software and the new IQ screen/interface and long exposure in the older backs. Hasselblad has the camera, the HTS, and MS backs including the 6shot - 200mp back. If you are not using an H body or 645DF, I think Hasselblad has the better integration - certainly with the technical cameras and stuff like the lens control. And Phocus is coming up fast, so hard to rule it out. Their DAC seem to be more comprehensive plus the remote operations by iphone is cool. And in a discussion about technical leaders, Leaf needs to be added to the mix because they have the rotating sensor, sensor flex, the articulating touch screen.
As someone who has sold multi-shot digital backs from 6MP - 39MP, I am certainly familiar with the quality difference between multi and single shot. But I have also seen that difference diminish as resolution has increased. The differences between 6, 11, 16, 22MP were huge, but they are much smaller with each new generation, due to the image quality gain of single shot. But certainly, multi-shot is still a great option in the right environment. Of course, so are scanning backs.
You did lose me a little bit when you said Hasselblad has better integration with technical cameras? Also, I've used DAC extensively as well as lens corrections via Capture One, and while DAC works great, I actually find it not comprehensive but rather limited, as there is no manual override option, no ability to customize corrections, no purple fringing correction, no negative vignetting, no positive or negative light falloff, no edge sharpness mask, etc, as in Capture One.
You're right, Leaf has their own unique feature set, which is why they will retain their identity and not be blended into the Phase One family. Their technology is still very different in many ways from Phase One.
Steve Hendrix
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You did lose me a little bit when you said Hasselblad has better integration with technical cameras? Also, I've used DAC extensively as well as lens corrections via Capture One, and while DAC works great, I actually find it not comprehensive but rather limited, as there is no manual override option, no ability to customize corrections, no purple fringing correction, no negative vignetting, no positive or negative light falloff, no edge sharpness mask, etc, as in Capture One.
Steve Hendrix
My comment was mostly related to better capture of Exif, remote control of lens and shutter settings etc through Phocus. Sorry the technical camera might have been misleading. I meant to include 3rd party cameras too in the integration comment. RE DAC, you can click it on or off in phocus same as in C1.
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My comment was mostly related to better capture of Exif, remote control of lens and shutter settings etc through Phocus. Sorry the technical camera might have been misleading. I meant to include 3rd party cameras too in the integration comment. RE DAC, you can click it on or off in phocus same as in C1.
I see. I don't think there is any advantage for either when it comes to Exif data or remote control of lens/shutter settings for 3rd party cameras. For DAC, yes, you can click it on or off, as you can with Capture One. My comments have referred to the additional manual control you have in Capture One as well as the expanded tool set for lens corrections that is lacking in Phocus DAC..
Steve Hendrix
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Steve,
Just one example: I enjoy using Phocus to change the aperture and shutter speeds on my 6008AF with any of the ixpress or CF backs attached. I think I can also do this with my iphone. The shutter values and aperture values are recorded in the EXIF data for these shots. None of this is possible with the phase backs. That's what I mean by integration. If you look at the list of cameras and platforms supported by the CF backs you'd be amazed. It's quite extensive. Sure you can mount a phase back to a lot of cameras and buy the ridiculously expensive cables to help it stay awake etc, but I don't think that's fully integrated like the Hasselblad stuff. Plus they have support guys who know the stuff and e-mail back right away. Phase has their forums (and a few guys like Doug) but its hit and miss. Some things they know well and other things not so well.
Eric
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Yes - Flame On! :D
Does the CF Lens Adapter have full aperture/stop down control? Why David, that sounds like a negative leading question from a competitor and eerily familiar to someone you and I have both talked about! ;) (inside joke between David and I)
No, the Phase One/Mamiya CF/FE Lens Adapter does not have full aperture stop down. So, one penalty point, but one gold star for being compatible with FE lenses (since the Hasselblad CF Lens Adapter is not).
Are the 50mm and 120mm new designs? Or updates of the existing lenses? Should they really count? The HTS does have optics inside it, so I suppose you could count that, but seems like a stretch. The reason I note the recent additions is that while yes, Hasselblad has a full lineup, Phase One/Mamiya has been more productive in the past several years in terms of new Leaf Shutter lenses and indeed, new lenses overall. If you count focal plane shutter lenses then the recent lens additions are:
Schneider
*55/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*80/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*110/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*150/3.5 Leaf Shutter
*120/5.6 Tilt Shift Focal Plane
The HC120II and HC50II are complete redesigns. Different elements, different groupings. Completely new lenses.
I don't consider the HTS as it comes under exactly the same complex design process as any other lens. It is also useable with five lenses. More efficient than building just one T/S lens.
The 120 TS is based on an old design and can't really be called new.
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The HC120II and HC50II are complete redesigns. Different elements, different groupings. Completely new lenses.
I don't consider the HTS as it comes under exactly the same complex design process as any other lens. It is also useable with five lenses. More efficient than building just one T/S lens.
The 120 TS is based on an old design and can't really be called new.
This lens has never been offered for Mamiya/Phase One. We'll call it even if you want. I am considering from the users standpoint, what new choices have emerged in terms of focal lengths or alternative glass at the same focal length, and this lens has never been available for any platform, certainly not for the Mamiya/Phase platform.
I'll concede new lenses on your HC120II and HC50II if you'll concede my Schneider 120T/S. Deal? ;)
Steve Hendrix
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Steve,
Just one example: I enjoy using Phocus to change the aperture and shutter speeds on my 6008AF with any of the ixpress or CF backs attached. I think I can also do this with my iphone. The shutter values and aperture values are recorded in the EXIF data for these shots. None of this is possible with the phase backs. That's what I mean by integration. If you look at the list of cameras and platforms supported by the CF backs you'd be amazed. It's quite extensive. Sure you can mount a phase back to a lot of cameras and buy the ridiculously expensive cables to help it stay awake etc, but I don't think that's fully integrated like the Hasselblad stuff. Plus they have support guys who know the stuff and e-mail back right away. Phase has their forums (and a few guys like Doug) but its hit and miss. Some things they know well and other things not so well.
Eric
Eric - I would not be amazed at how many cameras the CF backs can go on. I used to sell them.... ::)
It would be nice if there were more digital back options for those cameras...
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/digital-backs/cf39-and-cf39-ms.aspx
I recall attending a Hasselblad dealer conference in 2008 where Hasselblad told everyone in the audience that in 3 years no one would make digital backs anymore, only integrated/dedicated camera systems.
I do admire the ability to control the shutter speed and aperture with Phocus - especially with control of focusing and mirror rise with the H system. However, aperture and shutter speeds certainly do get recorded with a Phase One back on any H1/H2 camera and of course with the Mamiya/Phase One camera (not sure about other cameras). And you can control aperture shutter speed with a Phase One DF camera from Capture One software.
Manufacturer support has plenty of good and bad stories all around. Hasselblad does a good job, but there are also advantages to Phase One support. From either a dealer or end user perspective, there is significantly more real time information available concerning status of repairs for troubleshooting than any other medium format company (and I've worked with support from every one of them).
Steve Hendrix
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Sorry to say, but you have right !!! They have a very bad communication inside company. 10 days for repair is "virtual". Get information about repair is sometimes impossible. Even if your dealer do everything to help you...
It's only Label right now. If they don't do something, they will lost everything. They don't understand how important is good relations with customers. ( service and support) It's hard if you wait for equipment more then 1.5 year... And they do not see nothing wrong with that!!!
Best regards,
Design Freak
Manufacturer support has plenty of good and bad stories all around. Hasselblad does a good job, but there are also advantages to Phase One support. From either a dealer or end user perspective, there is significantly more real time information available concerning status of repairs for troubleshooting than any other medium format company (and I've worked with support from every one of them).
Steve Hendrix
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The HC120II and HC50II are complete redesigns. Different elements, different groupings. Completely new lenses.
I don't consider the HTS as it comes under exactly the same complex design process as any other lens. It is also useable with five lenses. More efficient than building just one T/S lens.
The 120 TS is based on an old design and can't really be called new.
This lens has never been offered for Mamiya/Phase One. We'll call it even if you want. I am considering from the users standpoint, what new choices have emerged in terms of focal lengths or alternative glass at the same focal length, and this lens has never been available for any platform, certainly not for the Mamiya/Phase platform.
I'll concede new lenses on your HC120II and HC50II if you'll concede my Schneider 120T/S. Deal? ;)
Steve Hendrix
Sorry David, but I will need to update my post with 2 more lenses due in 2011:
*Schneider 75mm - 150mm Leaf Shutter
*Schneider 240mm Leaf Shutter
Trying to get further details on aperture, specifications, etc.
:)
Steve Hendrix
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Steve,
how you can update if you still don't have them?
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Steve,
how you can update if you still don't have them?
Blas -
Because I can.
I will add the caveat that lenses can and do at times not meet delivery dates.
It is certainly ok if David doesn't accept these, and then I have to buy him another beer.
Steve Hendrix
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Not accepted.
Beer please! :P
;D
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Not accepted.
Beer please! :P
;D
Rats!
Beer credits to me for any near term beer outlay for when they ship? (a beerback?)
Steve Hendrix
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Rats!
Beer credits to me for any near term beer outlay for when they ship? (a beerback?)
Steve Hendrix
Since both you gentlemen seem to be online monitoring your beer tally, I have an equipment question.
As of today everything we shoot has a video component.
This brings two things to light regardless of camera format.
First is ISO. Right now we're in to pre production on a large shoot in a multiple series of locations. We'll use sunlight aided by crafted lighting, lifestyle situations that are completely lit using crafted light and the creative brief calls for a great deal of flexibility in what we deliver.
High quality stills, high quality motion imagery and many options of every major scene.
In going over our equipment list what we really need is high megapixel still camera that shoots video from the same position, though with many scenes would require 800 to 1000 iso if we use continuous lights, or the second option is to use medium format with strobe and mixed daylight for the stills, then double light the set with continuous lights (hmi' and leds) and shoot the motion with the RED.
The third option would be to shoot the 5d type of camera with continuous light for the stills and either continue with the 5d for video or add the RED never changing the lighting.
So my point is as good and welcome it is that both of your companies are adding lenses and improving your product, what are the plans for higher iso for continuous lighting, or even the ability to shoot motion with the same camera?
The iso part is very important as our studios continue to invest in more continuous sources, as you know even 800 watt hmi fixtures easily get to $6,000 a fixture so for a large production it is easy to get to $30,000 in lighting and this is just scratching the surface.
If I want to add medium format into the mix, we somewhat double our work load double lighting a set to work in flash and continuous.
So since you guys seem to drink a lot of beer, would you wait until you get a good buzz on, (so you've dropped your guard) and let us know your next major plans.
IMO
BC
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Since both you gentlemen seem to be online monitoring your beer tally, I have an equipment question.
As of today everything we shoot has a video component.
This brings two things to light regardless of camera format.
First is ISO. Right now we're in to pre production on a large shoot in a multiple series of locations. We'll use sunlight aided by crafted lighting, lifestyle situations that are completely lit using crafted light and the creative brief calls for a great deal of flexibility in what we deliver.
High quality stills, high quality motion imagery and many options of every major scene.
In going over our equipment list what we really need is high megapixel still camera that shoots video from the same position, though with many scenes would require 800 to 1000 iso if we use continuous lights, or the second option is to use medium format with strobe and mixed daylight for the stills, then double light the set with continuous lights (hmi' and leds) and shoot the motion with the RED.
The third option would be to shoot the 5d type of camera with continuous light for the stills and either continue with the 5d for video or add the RED never changing the lighting.
So my point is as good and welcome it is that both of your companies are adding lenses and improving your product, what are the plans for higher iso for continuous lighting, or even the ability to shoot motion with the same camera?
The iso part is very important as our studios continue to invest in more continuous sources, as you know even 800 watt hmi fixtures easily get to $6,000 a fixture so for a large production it is easy to get to $30,000 in lighting and this is just scratching the surface.
If I want to add medium format into the mix, we somewhat double our work load double lighting a set to work in flash and continuous.
So since you guys seem to drink a lot of beer, would you wait until you get a good buzz on, (so you've dropped your guard) and let us know your next major plans.
IMO
BC
Well, I don't have the buzz yet, and I would only be a speculative prognosticator in the case, but my thoughts are that clearly medium format size CCD's of today are not going to be the solution, although there have been some pretty impressive high ISO models released over the years (H4D-40, P30+, P21+), but nothing that has produced a usable quality video application. Incorporating the video component I'm pretty sure will mean some altered form of CCD or CMOS-type technology, and the challenge there is scaling it to the size they want, while also maintaining the pure image quality that medium format is known for. I believe the thinking is that a product will not be released in a large sensor that does not possess the same image quality of the CCD sensors of today, regardless of whether it can include a high quality video capture component/high ISO ability.
I don't know that Leaf's past experience with CMOS technology helps in this event, but it's possible.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0001/00011301cmos6mp.asp
And I will say that a digital back chassis designed for such a thing exists with the IQ digital backs. Since the previous Phase One chassis was almost a 9 year affair, it's likely the IQ design was produced in mind for things to come. Even the ability to use Live View in camera (even though it is still the same mediocre, slow frame rate CCD-based Live View) is a promising notion that, along with all the processing power that was built into the chassis (the 9 core processors, their own IOS, etc) promotes the idea that they have built it, but will it come? It's clearly difficult, otherwise, they'd have already done it. I guess time will tell.
Steve Hendrix
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Incorporating the video component I'm pretty sure will mean some altered form of CCD or CMOS-type technology, and the challenge there is scaling it to the size they want,
Whether this means anything or not, this is rumor that Sony has announced an 8k x 2k cmos motion camera, with 16 bit raw footage.
Now whether this can be used for stills or not, what the form factor is, or the cost is anyone's guess, but it seems the pixel race is not limited to still cameras.
Interesting though.
IMO
BC
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But that would be relevant in the costs if the back could handle 1600-3200 isos with high quality.
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Hello,
If there was a back out there that could shoot 1600-3200 ISO full sensor and no moiré I would buy one.
Simon
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Hello,
If there was a back out there that could shoot 1600-3200 ISO full sensor and no moiré I would buy one.
Simon
Hey, aren't we the first of april?
Ps: without moire? that would not be normal ! but still, if they come with a high isos quality back (with video module of course...), even with moire that would be like if Seti had find an alien signal.
Oh, and I forgot to mention: with an Ipad live view application please.
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Hello,
The days of me spend money on medium format are over. I have a full Mamiya RZ 6x7, Mamiya 645AFD and Sinar P2 kit plus my trusted 5 year old Leaf Aptus 75 which just keeps on trucking along.
The system I'm putting my spare cash into is Nikon, just this year I have purchased a 14-24, 24mm PC, 35, 50 and 85mm G lenses as well as 4 SB900 flash units and the new pocket wizards.
I did an 11 hour shoot this week for a large hotel in Auckland shooting interiors and talent in 2 of there new bars. Using ISO’s from 100 –800 and combining the ambient light with the SB900’s the shoot was a breeze.
What I am looking forward to is the Nikon D4X when that comes out I recon it will between 36-38 pixels and have awesome 1600-3200ISO using Nikon’s new CMOS chip. I’m sure it will have HD Video, but personally I have no interest in moving pictures (sorry James).
So now all I have to do is keep my clients happy and make lots of money and wait for Nikon to repair there facilities.
Cheers
Simon
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Hello,
The days of me spend money on medium format are over. I have a full Mamiya RZ 6x7, Mamiya 645AFD and Sinar P2 kit plus my trusted 5 year old Leaf Aptus 75 which just keeps on trucking along.
The system I'm putting my spare cash into is Nikon, just this year I have purchased a 14-24, 24mm PC, 35, 50 and 85mm G lenses as well as 4 SB900 flash units and the new pocket wizards.
I did an 11 hour shoot this week for a large hotel in Auckland shooting interiors and talent in 2 of there new bars. Using ISO’s from 100 –800 and combining the ambient light with the SB900’s the shoot was a breeze.
What I am looking forward to is the Nikon D4X when that comes out I recon it will between 36-38 pixels and have awesome 1600-3200ISO using Nikon’s new CMOS chip. I’m sure it will have HD Video, but personally I have no interest in moving pictures (sorry James).
So now all I have to do is keep my clients happy and make lots of money and wait for Nikon to repair there facilities.
Cheers
Simon
Simon, very nice works in your site. Rediscovering it with great pleasure.
I like very much the particular render of the bowling pic, the surf and bachelor in other sections (have the same atmosphere).
Gosh, since I live in Spain I completly lost to follow the rugby. I don't even know how France is doing now. I suppose that New Zeland is as good as always.
Cheers.
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Hi Fred,
Thanks, wow that’s going back some years. I shoot it with my Mamiya RZ and Fuji Velva and crossed proceed the film in C41.
Simon
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If there was a back out there that could shoot 1600-3200 ISO full sensor and no moiré I would buy one.
Phase One P65+, IQ160, and especially the IQ180 meet all three requirements.
IQ180 with 5.2 micron sensor is very unlikely to show moire (I never say something like moire proof since even a Canon with a strong AA filter or the human eye can see moire), is full 645 frame and can shoot up to ISO3200. The P65+/IQ160 does so at 15mp with final print detail in a 4:3 image comperable to a 5DII. The IQ180 does so at 20mp, but we have not done direct comparisons to other cameras.
I'm considering that legally binding :-) and will expect your order Monday for one of each.
Doug Peterson
From the road
CaptureIntegration.com
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Hi Doug,
The cheque is in the mail mate LOL.
Cheers
Simon
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Phase One P65+, IQ160, and especially the IQ180 meet all three requirements.
I'm considering that legally binding :-) and will expect your order Monday for one of each.
Doug Peterson
From the road
CaptureIntegration.com
LOL, bravo.
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Phase One P65+, IQ160, and especially the IQ180 meet all three requirements.
IQ180 with 5.2 micron sensor is very unlikely to show moire (I never say something like moire proof since even a Canon with a strong AA filter or the human eye can see moire), is full 645 frame and can shoot up to ISO3200. The P65+/IQ160 does so at 15mp with final print detail in a 4:3 image comperable to a 5DII. The IQ180 does so at 20mp, but we have not done direct comparisons to other cameras.
I'm considering that legally binding :-) and will expect your order Monday for one of each.
Doug Peterson
From the road
CaptureIntegration.com
I knew it!
Is there a 3200 iso studio shooting sample somewhere in the internet from that beast? and to be fair, downsampled to the size of a 5D2 or D3x. I do not get what's the mecanism involved that reduces in-sensor the number of pixels at those sizes. The why.
And an outdoor shooting in a city with available light at night would be great to check also at 3200.
You're lucky that Simon is not interested in motion imagery.