Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: AvidVisionary on March 01, 2011, 07:44:30 am
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I just joined and looking forward to learning from the best of the best.
I have a 5D MKII with 75-300mm f/4-5.6 USM, 50mm f/1.8
I have been doing self taught photography for 6 months now and have a basic understanding of composition, framing and equipment etc...
I did photography at college for 1 year but left it because of funds of film processing and other issues in life. So, I had a firm grasp of photography at the time.
Now, I have returned to re-educate my self in the field I love.
I would like to get into MF but, again, because of costs to colleges and some college don't have MF equipment unless you have money which makes me run in circles because of funds. I would like to learn MF self taught if possible.
What is the best way to learn about how to use the equipment, learning the work flow, the technology etc...
Thank you for the replies.
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First question is - do you mean MF film or MF digital?
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Digital first. Film later on. I say film later because of costs. Unless you know of a better way.
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You sure about that?
There is about a factor of 10 difference between the cost to be up and running with a basic MF film camera and a basic MF digital camera.
Start with film.
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Could you possible explain to me the difference between the two?
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I could...but...there's only so much spoon-feeding that one can be expected to do. I think that it's time that you followed through on your opening statement: "I have returned to re-educate my self". You can, and should, easily find out such things for yourself. Spend a session or two with Google, then come back to us again.
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Film Used
Used Hasselblad 500 CM with lens, back, viewfinder = $1,027 US (http://www.keh.com/camera/Hasselblad-Camera-Outfits/1/sku-HH019990512880?r=FE)
120 E6 Film @ $4.59 US (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/387542-USA/Fujifilm_15542522_RVP_120mm_Fujichrome_Velvia.html)
120 E6 Film Processing @ $8.00 US (http://www.e-sixlab.com/film.htm)
Digital Used
Hasselblad H3D-39 Megapixel + 50mm lens + 80mm lens, starting bid $9,999.00 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H3D-39-Megapixel-50mm-lens-80mm-lens-/200580563268?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item2eb3888144)
Note: Hard to find one Used with one lens; this is not the newest model.
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I think MF is just another camera. Bit heavier and you will be quicker to reach for a tripod but whats to learn really? In the old days it took a deft hand to load a roll of 220 film onto a processing reel without kinking and water marks could be a bit more troublesome but still, MF for the most part is just another camera. I can understand LF being an issue as it takes a while to wrap your head around movements and so on.
MF needs a bit more care to extract the benefits available than you may be used to taking with small format. In fact you can actually see a drop in quality when first moving to MF but all you really need to do is apply all the principles of small format but a lot more meticulously.
The difference between film MF and digital MF is buckets of money. Money for the back. Money for storage. Money for powerful computers. Loads of money. All or most of the costs up front in one stupendous hit. Film MF is cheaper to get into then you have higher ongoing costs for the consumables.
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Thank you darr for the links. I am looking into them. I am looking to rent rather then buy and learn at my own pace due to money. I will develop the negatives only and scan them rather then print them. Saving space and money.
@Martin
LF at the moment is beyond my reach. So, MF is a good place to move forward to while still working with 5D MKII. I want to do MF to have an edge when it comes to capturing a moment like in a wedding, architecture, film set and so forth. Also, I would like to learn MF as I will likely move to that format and my 5D MKII will become secondary.
Let me understand this correctly. Film is cheaper because there is no LCD and no memory? Anything else?
I have a powerful pc. I used to be a PC technician. I have been working with photoshop for 5 years so that part is also taken care off.
Intel Core 2 Quadro
8GB RAM
Windows 7 64-bit
1TB HDD
ATI HD 3800
I need help to understand the cost between digital and film.
How to go about using the equipment.
There are plenty of tutorials for Canon and Nikon with lenses but I have not been able to find anything for MF or any specific camera. I am new to the format so that language right now needs clear explanation.
I hope I have been clear as you have been helpful.
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I dont know about prices where you are. In South Africa you can buy a 2n'd hand Blad with a bunch of lenses for $1000. A top end digital back will cost 10 to 20 times that. Then you will still need a camera to mount it on and an old Blad may not always do it.
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I live in London, UK. If I get the money, I will buy but first I would like to practice and familiarise myself with the equipment and technicality.
I can't find any tutorials so I don't know where to start learning MF.
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I would expect to pay $500 - $750 a day to rent a complete MF Digital set up , I would buy a cheap blad and shoot film to get your feet wet.
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You don't need to LEARN MF.
If you know how to shoot there really is no difference between a P&S, DSLR, MF camera.
Just measure the light, set the settings, look through the little hole (or big hole) and press the shutter.
BUT.... I have to add.
When you ask a question like this I think it's not yet time to move to MF.
First master the 5D until it doesn't fit your needs anymore, when you hit that barrier where you feel you REALLY REALLY need something better, than it's time to upgrade, but by that time you already know 99% how to shoot a MF camera.
And no I don't mean that in a wrong way, just trying to put you on track.
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Film Used
Used Hasselblad 500 CM with lens, back, viewfinder = $1,027 US (http://www.keh.com/camera/Hasselblad-Camera-Outfits/1/sku-HH019990512880?r=FE)
120 E6 Film @ $4.59 US (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/387542-USA/Fujifilm_15542522_RVP_120mm_Fujichrome_Velvia.html)
120 E6 Film Processing @ $8.00 US (http://www.e-sixlab.com/film.htm)
Digital Used
Hasselblad H3D-39 Megapixel + 50mm lens + 80mm lens, starting bid $9,999.00 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H3D-39-Megapixel-50mm-lens-80mm-lens-/200580563268?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item2eb3888144)
Note: Hard to find one Used with one lens; this is not the newest model.
Yes Darr, yes, but it's just the top of the iceberg.
If the goal, or first goal is to learn, then I would recommend to start with film without hesitation, or if the film process is indeed an entire part of the fine-arts work that has all the sense to use film.
But if the goal is commercial that is another story and digital is the only solution. I often read that and yes, people who are doing fine art prints, maybe selling in galleries or from home and that's fine and romantic. But the needs of commercial photography simply does not allow anymore the uses of film except in some very few cases. The scanning costs are huge if done properly, the imposibility to check the results...let's go and say that about film to the young AD, the need anyway of powerfull computers because of the retouching involved that will be the same if not more than with digi and the time spent in all those extra tasks when delivery time in our wonderfull current world is shorten by ten while a need for high volume is multiply by the same tens and you got prety much the answer to where film is suitable or not.
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College, student (meaning not earning a living) and MF digital are not works that crop up in the same sentence very often. :o
Seriously though, you don't learn photography by buying better cameras, but through experience. Unless you have a specific need (hugh file size) or niche (LF cameras) then MF digital offers very little and quite possibly much less flexibility than your rather excellent Canon.
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Film scanning is a considerable cost (A good scanner is not cheap) and time factor if you don't want to outsource it (expensive!).
And before sinking a lot of money into a MF system I'd really really careful consider the total cost of ownership for film and digital.
I myself have a very very cheap MF Rangefinder (Mamiya Press) system and am scanning myself.
And now I am considering to sell it and get either a D3X or a Used H4D or Phase System, for better image quality and faster workflow.
If you are determined to go digital anyways I'd consider to start with a reduced used system so you can upgrade later.
Lenses are important! Bodies come and go. Get a system which has a future and you can step by step upgrade.
Just my 0.02 ...
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@Frank Doorhof
I will take your advice to heart because you are experienced more then I. I will work with MF in film format but not yet as you have advised.
I have a question.
Why is it that a wide angle Canon lens is 17mm and a Hasselblad wide angle is 40mm?
@gazwas
I am defiantly not going to be buying anything. I love my 5D. I wanted to learn how to shoot with MF systems and renting them was what I had in mind. This thread put me on the right path because film is much cheaper.
@Christoph C. Feldhaim
I thought film scanning is cheap because of this;
http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-Canon-CanoScan-9000F-Film-Scanner/p1522045?cm_mmc=GoogleBase-_-Scanners-_-Scanners-_-Canon-CanoScan-9000F-Film-Scanner_1522045 (http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-Canon-CanoScan-9000F-Film-Scanner/p1522045?cm_mmc=GoogleBase-_-Scanners-_-Scanners-_-Canon-CanoScan-9000F-Film-Scanner_1522045)
I assumed the process would be as follows;
Take pictures > develop negatives only > scan negatives > post process into photoshop.
Just for the record to everyone reading this and would like to add their 2 cents, I will be working with film thanks to Frank for his guidance and will be renting only until I can afford.
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Your Canon will wipe the floor with that Epson flat bed scanner and IMO you'll totally miss all the advantages of MF film by scanning at this quality.
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I thought so but I wasn't sure. What scanner do you recommend? The cheapest of course.
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Your Canon will wipe the floor with that Epson flat bed scanner and IMO you'll totally miss all the advantages of MF film by scanning at this quality.
Have you scanned MF film with an Epson 700/750? I find the quality quite acceptable, nearly as good as my Nikon 9000 and for a lot less money. Another option for digital conversion is shooting the MF film with the Canon DSLR. There is something seductive about the large MF film images that goes beyond resolution. I have "high end" DSLR, MF film and digital and all are fun to use and learn with. However, if my home mortgage depended on my camera gear than I would have a different opinion.
Steve
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Steve, the truth is MF film is better then DSLR. The quality is unsurpassed and if treated correctly when scanned then the quality is preserved. However, reading your comment I trust your judgement.
I still would like to know why a canon 17mm wide angle lens is called a CFE 4/40? Why is it called 40mm if it's wide angle?
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Probably the cheapest GOOD way to scan would be a nikon LS 9000, that is if you can find one. Your other option is a used drum scanner which can be bought for pennies these days. Problem with drum scanning is that there's a learning curve to use it profficiently, ie wet mounting, controlling the software of the scanner etc. Oh and if an element like the bulb is busted then in most cases you can say goodbye to your scanner and look for another one, as the replacement parts would be more expensive than another used drum scanner hunted down on ebay.
The most reasonabe way is finding a lab on which you can depend when it comes to scanning, developing and printing.
If you want to go with anything worse than Nikon LS 9000, your Canon will wipe the floor with it- I can totally agree with it, especially if you take into the equation factors like time spent (wasted?) on scanning, correcting the scanned stuff etc. Epson 700 / 750 - everyone who has used it will tell you a different story, some will tell you that the quality is near 9000, some will tell you that its pretty much useless. It depends on what are your expectations, reading your last comment (about the superiority of MF vs DSLR), Epson wouldn't probaby deliver what you demand from MF. Speaking of which- DSLRs stack really high against MF these days.. you should browse some of the topics here like product photos shot with Canon (as far as I remember) vs Hasseblad H3D-39 shots.. there was a poll and most people here couldn't tell which were Hassy and which were delivered by Canon. So the unsurpassed- yes, probably, but in case of Multi-shot and new generation backs. Otherwise it's a different story. And new Nikons and Canons are just by the corner, I would definitely wait and see their intro prior to any investment at that point. And regarding your last question- hmm, for some questions google would be your best friend.
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Steve, the truth is MF film is better then DSLR. The quality is unsurpassed and if treated correctly when scanned then the quality is preserved. However, reading your comment I trust your judgement.
I still would like to know why a canon 17mm wide angle lens is called a CFE 4/40? Why is it called 40mm if it's wide angle?
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The reason you aren't getting an answer is that this subject is well addressed (endlessly even) in many other places - take a look at the manuf web sites (Phase One), a dealers site - (Capture Integration, etc.) or read some of the articles posted on LL. Homework time.
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Take all of this with a grain of salt, but understand your path is a familiar one.
the first thing every aspiring photographer does is pick up a camera, which really should be #3 on the list.
First is study of the masters, to learn why to do something, not how. How is easy because that is usually just emulating someone else's vision.
Which is a much different mindset.
The next step is to study the world around you and learn to see it two dimensionally. My partner/stylist/producer is one of the few non photographers I know that can visualize in two dimensions and I consider her a real artist.
Third is to take a camera, usually one lens and shoot what is in your heart, not what is in your mind.
In the very best hands a 5d compared to the highest level 80mpx camera only produces about a 1% difference in the final art, if that.
In fact most photographers I know moved to digital because of commercial demands from clients or the difficulty in traveling with film, but if you shoot with proclivity, you will eventually find there is no real cost savings in film to digital.
Not when you factor in computers, drives, software, calibrators, more computers, more drives more . . . plus the many thousands of hours of learning curve to relearn a software suite that results in very little difference from the previous software suite you spent 1,000 hours leaning.
For the casual amateur digital can be a cost saving excercize and for the weekend warrior digital allows a very easy path to seeing what you shot immediately and making corrections, but this usually isn't the best way to learn the art.
Compare drawing on a computer to painting in watercolor. Obviously on the computer it's easy to make a mistake, easy to go back three steps, but there is no real penalty for mistakes. On a piece of canvas there is no real redos and the mistake penalty is heavy. Film is the same way. You either get it or you don't, but that pressure of having to get it right the first time is a great learning experience.
I mean this in a kind way, but taking a good photograph is not that difficult, making a good photograph is much harder, making a great photograph is either luck of divine intervention.
The camera has little to do with any of this and right now you are at the crossroads. You can be a camera/techno geek that fixates of pixel size, sensor depth and spends little time shooting, a lot of time fixating, or become a photographer/artist/image creator.
Remember the more interesting scene you can place in front of the lens, the more interesting image will result.
When I bought my first two original 1ds' I told our studio manager if I was smart i would buy 4 more, put them in storage and never buy another still camera again. i know if i had been smart enough to do that, I would have had more time to improve my art, more time to see the real world from a street level view, not a computer screen facsimile and I would have save $100,000s in the process.
Obviously technique is important, but photography is art aided by science, not science for the sake of science.
If a photograph is pretty nobody mentions technique, pixel depth or file size. If it's not, that's all they seem to talk about.
Anyway, my suggestion would be to use what you have until you are absolutely positive it's keeping you from going forward, then think about investing in more upscale equipment.
Or just start at the top end of the equipment heap and at least your leaning one workflow, one set of cameras. The only problem with that is in the electronic age the top end keeps moving forward, so you never really catch up.
IMO
BC
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I still would like to know why a canon 17mm wide angle lens is called a CFE 4/40? Why is it called 40mm if it's wide angle?
Could be due to culture differences.
Canon lenses are made in Japan, whereas most medium format lenses come from Scandinavia.
A good and fast way to learn the MF photography would be to take a workshop. Both leading MF companies offer them including the equipment.
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WOW!!!
You guys have been really informative and helpful. I have made up my mind and will not be buying a hasselblad until I am done with the 5D. I will be renting a hasselblad from time to time. Rent only for now. Just to get my feet wet.
I spoke to a hasselblad representative and he said that they give a monthly workshop for free to try it out and ask any question you may have. I guess I will be doing it once a month since this is the best way to learn.
Thank you to everyone who has helped and replied with my questions. I am so glad I chose this forum.
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Hi,
About the wide angle.
This ismsimply explained, the larger the sensor gets the more mm's will be called wide angle.
On a 645 for example the 80mm is about equal as the 50mm on a FF DSLR, however on a 6x7 like the Mamiya rx67 it goes up even more app 110-120.
HOWEVER....
When you use a digital back remember that almost all also have a crop factor.
On the 645 this can range from 1.1 for the leaf aptusII5-7 to 1.4 (or more), when placing the same back on the RZ you will get a huge crop, meaning to get the same angle of view on the RZ you will need the same mm lens as on the 645 although the image on the viewfinder is huge, that's why you have to use crop marks on your glass.
About scanning film.
I'm using the v700 with a better scanning tranny (the normal tranny is almost useless if you want quality), I don't know where you got the idea it wipes the floor with the 5d but that is not true.
When I scan on the best possible way, with a good negative the results are stunning, when downsizing and comparing sharpness the REAL detail will clock in at about 16mp, also remember that film is a totally different animal than a digital sensor. With digital the sensor is 100% flat, film never is, meaning if you want real sharpness nothing beats the digital. If you want dynamic range a very well lit shot on film will not get close to a DSLR with most (if not all color film) on some b&w films it's very close or maybe slightly better.
Don't get me wrong I LOVE shooting film but more for creative issues.
Love to just destroy a film by lying it in the sun before shooting, or using expired film, it can get you some wonderful results which you can try to minic in Photoshop later on.
However scanning is a pain in the so called you know what ;)
Prepare for some dust removal after scanning, prepare for spending several hours fine tuning the tranny to get the perfect scan, and get newton glass to sandwich your negatives when they are curved.
Film for fun or creative process is fun, otherwise stick with a 5d mkII.
And when you outgrow that system go for MF but only if you can't do with the 5dMKII what you want.
MF is wonderful but it's not a miracle camera that will transform you into a better photographer, in the end it's about the image, the camera is just a tool.
Use MF when you want less DOF in your shot, use a DSLR when you need more for example.
I would never ever sell my DSLR, but also probably never will sell my MF, horses for courses with the exception that my 5dmkII does everything really well, and my MF does somethings excellent ;)
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"Prepare for some dust removal after scanning, prepare for spending several hours fine tuning the tranny to get the perfect scan, and get newton glass to sandwich your negatives when they are curved."
That makes complete sense. Life has ordained that the more hours you put into anything, the rewards are permanent. They are not short lived. The skill always remains with you. I found that that to be true into anything I put an effort towards and time.
I do prefer film more to digital because of the dynamic range. I am creative person more then technical.
This picture was taken with film. That is better then the digital pictures of today in my opinion.
http://img.topit.me/o/201012/03/12913857243528.jpg
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Can't open the image.
I however think it's a myth that film has higher dynamic range.
Film has a different curve than digital which is pretty linear.
On the highlights film has a nice shoulder on most films but blacks are gone very quickly.
This is what we call expose for the media ;)
With film I will expose for the shadows and with digital I will try to light spot on or for the highlights.
When shooting raw I can't think about a film (except maybe some bw) that has greater dynamic range than a good DSLR.
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That's strange. I can open the image fine.
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I agree fred, but somehow the rumor still floats around the net ;) maybe with the old DSLRs film won on DR I really never tested it but it sure did not beat my 5d and mkII let alone my digital back.
I'm still shooting film sometimes (could say a regular base if once every 4-5 months is called regular) and I only use it for the LOOK, not for a so called advantage. Don't get me wrong I love film but when I compare it to a digital file that file has my preference for retouch, but film..... Well it's film it looks unique compared to digital which is perfect. Sometimes we just don't want perfect.
When I got into film someone told me it would beat the heck out of my 5dMK1 I was rather surprised when I saw my first roll, were my 5D held detail film was all muddy, but I did fall in love with the look and the feel of some films so I kept the film back for the 645 and later on bought the rz67 mainly to shoot film with, but not long after I also connected the digital back to that camera ;)
If one should point out one advantage it's the look, you can fake it in Photoshop but it doesn't look exactly the same way, it's hard to explain, and with the whole revival of the analogue look shooting film can be more interesting than ever for fashion. I know I still have a fridge full of expired film so who knows the coming weeks I will start shooting it again.
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Once someone explained to me, that a part of the different look of film is also due to
different lens design, especially in the area of spherical aberration correction.
Basically he told me that modern lenses which are designed for digital photography
are designed to have a very very strict plane of focus, which tends to create a very
sharp distinction between sharp and unsharp areas as opposed to lenses designed
for film, which tend to give a smoother transition and are less corrected for spherical aberration.
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In cinematography film is more noticeable then digital because it's a moving image format. With still, it can be hard to judge to the untrained eyes.
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"Why is it that a wide angle Canon lens is 17mm and a Hasselblad wide angle is 40mm?"
As a college teacher, this reminds me very much of students that email us with a question like: "dear Dr. X, I'm a high school student doing a research paper, due this Friday. Can you please tell me everything about music in the Romantic era, its roots, style characteristics, and major composers?"
I hate to flame the OP, but the question at the top of this post shows so many gaps in his/her absolutely basic knowledge that it seems silly respond. When I was young, I read absolutely everything I could get my hands on for photography, and did lots of experimentation and shooting. Start by educating yourself on the easy stuff.
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I am educating my self by asking questions from professionals.
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I think that many people who recently came into photography are completly hypnotized and confused by equipment before they have gained maturity or experience
and before they can even purchase the gear. I know very well what I'm talking about because I've falled in that trap more than once in the past.
There is a sensation of need, wich of course is false, an idea that this or that gear will help to be a better photographer.
In fact, all they do is creating that way a new problem for themselves and an obstacle.
The internet din that tend to glorify the specs, that put values like DR, noise-free, resolution etc...above what all the great masters have always taught us has a lot to do with that sinistre fact.
Those western societies have managed to create generations of spoiled child who's toys are never enough, never good enough and that's a big trap. Big expensive toys that never garantee big imagery.
When you make a living on imagery, that is another story because those are your working tools.
The other day I saw a russian website with very good pics, a bunch of people shooting for passion with extremely primitives DSLRs and the level was very good. Sure that none of them even ask themselves where the Phase or whatever dealer is. Sometimes (don't get me wrong) limitations can enhance creativity, in fact they do. (I'm not in favor of a post communist reality, but what is happening here, this overdosis of toys and gadgets is creating other kinds of neurosis).
Now I could go MF, I only shoot it at work but do not own myself a personal MF gear. I was about to do it, but then I asked myself what the hell will I do with an Hasselblad if I have my personal work almost frozen at the moment and I don't even know what I really want to express because it costs me a lot to shoot for shooting without having a "why" and a "what" that I really know authentic. I'm very much like Rob on that aspect. Do I want a 30000 bucks camera to point to some rocks on sunrise? (no provocation to the landscapers, it's just that I do not feel it)
What would I do with an MF gear right now? Some cool bottoms in high heels with more res? That's what I want? I don't bloody know. I don't have the answer just a little intuition about my picture dharma.
I'm precisely studding again the masters over and over again and that is where the answer is and I know it. The equipment is almost pointless because the right equipment will show-up at the right time when things are clear and on their way. For that all you need is to burn frames, a lot of frames and do things with love.
Same the other day when I suddenly had this reminder that my computers are now underpower, but when I asked myself the question if I could acheived so far all the tasks I wanted or needed the answer is yes indeed. The day that will not be the case I will upgrade.
Enjoy photography with what you have AvidVisionary, don't watch the graphics and the gear testings. What you really need will show-up. Don't be in a hurry, just enjoy. Studdy the masters and with the money saved, go for dates and dates with girls and enjoy life.
Inside the internet bazaar, the about 90% of false beleif and useless stuff, you really need to free the mind to stay clear. You where right to ask your doubts here in that section, you had already many good advices above on those pages from people who know.
edit: about gear testing, it's not that I think they are not usefull if done properlly, but IMO it's better to buy first the equipment being "virgin" and start to use it with a certain inocence. Then, go to the testings if you need.
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You just nailed it. You ingrained in me even more why I should not buy anything else.
Thank you, sincerely honest of you.
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I think I'll once get a Holga or Diana .... they are so cheap - its tempting just because of that ...
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Spend a few months shooting 4x5. Learn about with movements. Struggle with it, get some good shots, and then MF will make a good deal more sense.
While this suggestion is notoriously old-school, and may seem like an odd way to get to MF, it will make things much clearer. You will be able to understand MF on your own, with clarity - as then the role of the camera, you as photographer, issues of composition, and the impact of technology will all be freshly recalibrated. Your transition to MF will be much freeer of many of the DSLR biases that can permeate the migration at this time.
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I am educating my self by asking questions from professionals.
And you are getting answers from both professionals and amateurs - who are equally knowledgeable because they put the time in to do their own research, as well as using some of these systems.
Now people around here and on the photo.net MF forum will know me as a contributor who generally goes out of his way to be helpful and kind, particularly when factual information is sought and I can bring my role as a physics educator into play...but there are limits! I agree 100% with the responses of Geoffreyg and coles. I tried to steer you onto the path of doing your own research, right at the start of the thread, but you persisted; and you went on to ask kindergarten questions, like why a Canon 17mm lens is considered equivalent to a Hasselblad 40mm lens. In the internet age, why should anyone expect someone else to answer such basic, basic, factual questions for them? I would be embarrassed to come onto a forum with such an attitude. The answers are already at your fingertips - and more than just the direct answers, the learning process which is even more valuable to your education and formation as a photographer.
It's exactly in the same vein as the famous "give a man a fish..." proverb: we could tell you in a few words why you saw some reference to the Canon 17mm and Hasselbad 40mm lenses being equivalent (by the way, they're not really); but if you research it yourself you will not only find that answer, you will learn so much more that the whole deal with MF will make sense...and you would be able to prove for yourself that 17mm on a DSLR like your 5DII is actually wider than 40mm on any Hasselblad body, without even handling either of them. Once you've got that far, then forums like this are perfect for asking questions to fill in the gaps in your body of knowledge.
Ray
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Right, first of all. If I knew the technical language of what to type into google to get my answers then I would have.
Secondly, if you answered the question without looking down upon those you see below your superior knowledge then I would have picked up something from your answer and followed the trail.
Lastly, if you are going to talk down on people who are new to the field then you have done the exact opposite of reaching out and guiding them.
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Phase One offers medium format workshops at a number of different locations around the world. These workshops are all inclusive so all you need to do is get there. You'll be provided a Phase One P65+ camera system to use during the workshop and you'll also learn workflow, prepping files for printing as well as some terrific photographic opportunities with world class instructors. You can learn more at www.phaseone.com/podas or www.podas.info. Lots of other benefits too. Hope you check them out.
Kevin Raber
VP Phase One PODAS workshops
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Right, first of all. If I knew the technical language of what to type into google to get my answers then I would have.
Secondly, if you answered the question without looking down upon those you see below your superior knowledge then I would have picked up something from your answer and followed the trail.
Lastly, if you are going to talk down on people who are new to the field then you have done the exact opposite of reaching out and guiding them.
With all due respect, it has been gently recommended that you read information that exists on this site - in great detail. And also manufacturers sites. It doesn't seem to have had much impact.
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This thread is BS. You're all getting trolled. Nuff said.
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I am reading. Because the question I have in mind I have not yet come across the answer should not allow you to scoff me.
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Because the question I have in mind I have not yet come across the answer should not allow you to scoff me.
The thing is we don't know the answer either if we have no idea of the question in your head.
The evidence (your cat picture) points to you either being a troll or with a new photographer with very little photographic knowledge asking question about gear you know even less about. It has been suggested you do some research and try and find answers to your questions but you prefer to continue along the same vain then complain when people pull you up on this.
Just looking at your last two posts it seems more your looking for an argument rather than photographic help.
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You are pulling me towards an argument and when I defend myself you say things about me that are untrue. You don't know me or know anything about me yet you just sit there behind the screen say "search for it". I have searched and did not get an answer. I ask and get told to search for it.
Since you have decided to "help" by commenting, could you please kindly show me how to search for details on how to operate a MF camera since I cannot yet hold one on my hands. I would like to practice in theory first.
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22guide+to+medium+format%22
First link which will appear. Tough, wasn't it..
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I looked for "mamiya tutorials" "hasselblad tutorials" "phase one" tutorials and all that came up was how to use the software. There are no MF tutorials like DSLR on the net. The theory of MF is there but the tutorials and lessons I have not encountered yet.
Thanks for the link.
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Three different formats but all the work horses of the pre digital world and some still used by some digital photographers currently.
Mamiya RZ67
http://www.pdfcameramanuals.org/mamiya/mamiya_rz67/mamiya_rz67.htm (http://www.pdfcameramanuals.org/mamiya/mamiya_rz67/mamiya_rz67.htm)
Mamiya 645
http://www.butkus.org/chinon/mamiya/mamiya_645_af_d/mamiya_645_af_d.htm (http://www.butkus.org/chinon/mamiya/mamiya_645_af_d/mamiya_645_af_d.htm)
Hasselblad 503CX
http://www.butkus.org/chinon/hasselblad/hasselblad_503cx/hasselblad_503cx.htm (http://www.butkus.org/chinon/hasselblad/hasselblad_503cx/hasselblad_503cx.htm)
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YES!! That's exactly what I have been searching for.
Thank you so much.
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Only AV knows his/her intentions, but it should be understood that his/her questions are valid.
When I started shooting digital capture I thought I was behind the curve, then found in my world I was ahead of the curve but getting information, real unbiased information on anything was difficult.
From the RG forums to this venue, getting monitor calibrations came with answers based on agendas of specialists, representing products, or specialists representing products and their own custom workshops.
Same with printing, converting rgb to cmyk, profiling cameras, buying cameras, using cameras, the list was endless.
Not to paint everyone with the same brush, because some people and information were spot on, but I remember the huge amount of disinformation I received from pre press houses, digital gurus, camera sellers, seminar givers, peripheral sellers, etc.etc. to the point it made your head want to blow.
Just the simple act of converting an rgb file to a cmyk image would open up a 400 reply post that had so many agendas, it would eventually be locked.
Cameras were another story. Only one group (I think head by the digital tech Von Thomas) compared the medium format cameras of the day in one room on a real shoot and only with Von's insistence was a Canon allowed in the testing.
As well meaning as this test was, it still focused on just on small scenario in studio and didn't go into a lot of real world use and back end workflow.
Since that time I've yet to see anything close to that comparison and today is a much different time as a few of the players have consolidated, one (Sinar) has seemed to drop off the map (at least in the U.S.), two new all in one medium format cameras have been introduced, (the leica and the Pentax) both on opposite ends of the price scale and today there is more talk about video and motion than there is more megapixels, so though things are different they are just as complicated.
Sometimes I think we forget that we all stood in the same spot as AV wanting to learn, not make a drastic purchase mistake and of course not go down the wrong learning path.
Since real non biased information is difficult to come by, the only real answer form Mr. AV is to do the tests him/herself in the genre he/she works. This can be expensive and time consuming and is probably the reason most people base their buying decisions on taking a few quick snaps in some dealers showroom.
There is just very few dealers and very few ways to test pentax, leica, Hasselblad, leaf/Phase a Nikon D3x and a 5d2 from one source.
Let's be honest AV's questions are valid and who wouldn't like to have the opportunity to test all this equipment together and draw some kind of conclusion?
IMO
BC
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I imagine that for anybody starting from scratch, the formats are meaningless. The basics of photography are identical over all formats. The only differences derive from things such as camera movements etc. which are certainly not important requirements for any novice.
What is important to any neophyte is the understanding of one body and lens. Crack using that and you have the understanding to use anything else, because all you are doing is changing the area you cover with your camera. Concepts such as depth of field, perspective and so forth do change, but they are immediately obvious.
Advice? Buy the best camera and standard lens you can afford and go shoot. Stop reading about other equipment; start learning how to use what you have got.
Rob C
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AV -
I might also recommend to get off the internet. Take a stroll to the local public library. Check out the photography section. There will likely be older, more fundamental camera resources there that are easy to pick up on than you'll find at a glance of photography sites on the internet. And this is probably just what you need to get you started. If you don't know the questions to ask, if you don't know why a 40mm lens is considered wide on a medium format camera, then you have some gaps that are hindering you and which could be filled by books like those.
Grab 2 or 3, take an afternoon off, and you may find your sea legs by the end of the day.
Best of luck.
Steve Hendrix
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$$$$$$
Could you possible explain to me the difference between the two?
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Frank is absolutely right, and he absolutely knows what he talks about.
Also, I would not try MF for film. I happen to have an MF-Film kit (Pentax 67 with 5 lenses) but I never use it. My full frame DSLR always wins, at least when tested with slide film. http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/16-pentax67velvia-vs-sony-alpha-900
That said there is also an opposite view: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=20970
If you have a very good drum scan operator and make very few images you may get excellent results from MF film
So my advice would be:
- Be happy with your Canon 5DII and learn to use it optimally
- Invest your money on better lenses
- Once you feel the need a larger format try to set up so you can test equipment under realistic conditions.
- You may also consider taking part in a PODAS workshop. They are expensive but you can shoot Phase One's top gear with excellent tutors.
Best regards
Erik
You don't need to LEARN MF.
If you know how to shoot there really is no difference between a P&S, DSLR, MF camera.
Just measure the light, set the settings, look through the little hole (or big hole) and press the shutter.
BUT.... I have to add.
When you ask a question like this I think it's not yet time to move to MF.
First master the 5D until it doesn't fit your needs anymore, when you hit that barrier where you feel you REALLY REALLY need something better, than it's time to upgrade, but by that time you already know 99% how to shoot a MF camera.
And no I don't mean that in a wrong way, just trying to put you on track.
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I am definitely going to be looking into the PODAS workshop. Also, the British library has books on MF which I can read for free.
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Recently, I scanned 6X9 negative color film with the ancestor of this scanner (Epson 3200 photo). Using 3200 dpi, I obtain approximatively 6O MPixel files that I have printed in A3+. After having process to noise and sharpness treatement on Photoshop CS3, the color and the sharpness of the results satisfy me (however I am not a professional) .
My question is the following : for how long time can we buy such films, and how many long the laboratories may process them ? I am french, and I have no any information concerning the problem?
In fact, I made used of a Silvestri T30 camera (with a Schneider 38mm lense), that I have lose, due to a thieft. Presently, I am examing whether it is appropriate to buy a new film camera, since I have no budget to buy a digital MF camera.
Please, excuse me for my so bad practice of english language.
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@JN,
Upconvert a digital file and you can get 10.000MP's if you want.
Print it on A2 and it's awesome....
Don't mean to bash MF, heck I love it PLUS I love film.
But scanning to 60MP is just a number, when you compare the same shot with a 22MP back I found that with my scanner (epson v700 with better scanning tranny) I got app 12-14MP of REAL comparable resolution.
Someone offered me to scan it with a high end scanner and that came close to 16-18MP but none beat my Aptus22 at that moment.
A3+ is no problem at all, even an 8MP file will look great on that size.
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Yes, I agree with Frank.
Film availability is guarantee at least for enough years, there is a market (and a slightly growing market).
To answer to JN, you can get a gear that is easily compatible with both so you will never run out of gazoline if film disappear from the stores (will not happen tomorrow anyway).
I've seen many enormous digital printings very well aceived made by 20MP cameras, but again there are tricks that craftmen knows. This is not suitable for a photographer on his own, you can't get that with a home studio and your 90 or 120 cm Epson plotter, although a lot is possible.
I saw Rio Branco's (http://www.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP=XSpecific_MAG.PhotographerDetail_VPage&l1=0&pid=2K7O3R13Q5JC&nm=Miguel%20Rio%20Branco) 2, 3 meters prints done from film and they where stunning. The very big difference I see on big sizes are in the highlights. Digital highlights when printing at those sizes and especially the harsh light tend for my taste to be "dirty" on the edges. The post-prod stage is really key and it's long. No posibility to eradicate that automaticaly.
At those sizes I only trust a pro that does that on a daily basis. It's a bit like sound in video, we can't do and know all. I'm not a pro printer and don't want to be. Machines are super sensitives to humidity, temp, dust, the vaccum system that fixes support are fragile etc...
If the printing size is tiny, like A3, you can't get wrong on your own with almost whatever, as Frank pointed.
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Frank and Fred many thanks for your messages. Your informations are very usefull.
I see that resolution in a picture is a difficult concept, that cannot only be evaluated by a number of Pixels.
Concerning the availability of films, I feel reasured.
What I loved in my Silvestri: it has a large field of versatility. Particularly, this camera can be used free hand (in this cas, I feel it is unobstrusive for people). Moreover it is compatible with films or digitals back.
Alpa seems also an interesting feature ... but it is more expensive.
Jean
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Jean, I think you're in France. Watch that link: http://www.galerie-photo.com/
It's a good french site on large format. I think they have a forum.
They are located in Nîmes and organise workshops. One of the guy was probably the Burkhard teacher's assistant when I was in fine arts.(I'm french)
There is knowledgable info in it.
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Indeed, Fred, I am french and I know Galerie-Photo. I bought my Silvestri and some lenses and accessories in their store from Nice. In each case, they was very serious deals (but I have understood that the store in Nice is now independ, the store of Galerie Photo presenting now essentially 35mmm SLR camera). Clearly, your suggestion is good: I shall inquire into "Gallerie Photos" forum.
By contacting "Luminous Landscape", my goal is also to receive opinions from people of other countries than France.
I must confess that, presently, I take pictures by making use of a small numeric camera, namely Canon G10, and that I am very surprised by the quality of the results compared to those from 35mm analogic cameras (G10 costed less than 500 euros). Indeed, with G10, I obtain sharp A3 printings. However, I hate to spend a lot of time for correcting geometric distorsion (with not satisfying results, most of the time). Moreover, from the point of view of shooting pictures, shift movement and large field of SWA lenses are often missing for me.
Jean
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Yeah, I think those guys are linked in a way or another to the supports-surfaces movement, very strong in Nice and Nîmes and they have the Arles circus just on the corner. I studdied with Viallat for awhile.
Saw some of his tarpaulins in a Madrid gallery and they are still stunning.
Luminous Landscape is IMO one of the best place to be. You also find very valuable info and many Lu-La members in GetDPI runned by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher.
I have the sensation that GetDPI has more large format users but I would not bet on that (or they are more active).
Lu-La is a great forum, full of knowledgable members and open so in fact it's always a rich experience.
Cheers.
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Support-surface movement. Some years ago, I saw trapaulins from Viallat in Cateau Cambresis Museum. Impressionistic. Beautiful. However, it corresponded to the end of my ten years painting period (amateur) path. I was returning to photography. Your advisements are very precious: I shall contact Lu-La members in GetDPI forum.
Many thanks, Jean
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Right, first of all. If I knew the technical language of what to type into google to get my answers then I would have.
I assumed that someone with serious photographic investment (a 5DII kit), and who'd spent some time looking around this forum, would have enough background to do some simple searches. There's no special technical language required. As several people have already said, photography is essentially the same regardless of different formats.
Secondly, if you answered the question without looking down upon those you see below your superior knowledge then I would have picked up something from your answer and followed the trail.
Now let's get one thing straight. The only thing I looked down on was your attitude. I never play any sort of "I know more than you so I'm superior" card. That just isn't me. I couldn't possibly do my job (lecturer in physics and astronomy), if that was how I view my students! None of us start life with any knowledge, but we are all capable of acquiring it. We all come out of the womb with zero knowledge, other than how to cry and how to suckle milk. So if right now you know less than me about something, that doesn't in any way reflect badly on you, or reflect well on me. I would fully expect you to join me in this knowledge if you wished. And I would gladly help to get you there if your attitude and approach were different.
Lastly, if you are going to talk down on people who are new to the field then you have done the exact opposite of reaching out and guiding them.
You have no idea how many such new people I have reached out to down the years. I never talked down to them either. But they had made, or were making, the effort themselves as well. I enjoy helping, in part because I too have greatly benefited from the expertise and helpfulness of others. Anyway, I think it's fair to say that my contributions in this thread have been guidance to you - although not in the form that you were expecting. I could have just ignored your posts, but I did reach out; and told you not what you wanted to hear, but what I think you needed to hear.
This little spat will blow over, you'll soon start to find your bearings in MF, and I'm sure I'll be there to lend a hand then.
Ray
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What is your questions?
I started with digital and just started to shoot with film in 2010 [last year], and this year [2011] i started to shoot with large format, i don't have 35mm film, only MF digital and film and now LF.
I scan with Epson V750, i agree that i prefer my digital file over film scans, and that is why i feel or say i think to get a drum scanner to have maximum quality out of the film, and i may prefer B&W film over digital, but colors i like digital more, there are films that give me different colors look that i can't get with digital, so i can't judge that film beats digital or digital surpass film, i have both and use both.
About the focal length why that CAnon has widest 17mm, in fact 17mm is not the widest lens with Canon, and MF sensor or film/sensor size is larger so the equivalent is bigger number, so 40mm on MF 6x6 is equivalent to about 24mm on 35mm format, the lens 43mm on Mamiya 7[6x7] is equivalent about 21mm on 35mm format, to me i am fine with 20-25mm focal length on MF, it will not be a big deal for me to have wider, also Lf has lenses that are coming equivalent at about 14-18mm on 35mm format [depends on what LF size].
Use film or digital for what you want, don't ask others to tell you which one is better or highest quality, not all can go with highest quality or want highest quality, i have 60mp camera and i really feel idiot if i want to have 80mp or even 100mp and don't use moor mp for what is worthy.
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Many thanks for your mail. Please, excuse me for this late response: yesterday and the day before, I travelled from Rouen, France, to Düsseldorf, Germany for visiting the exhibition
which was devoted Thomas Ruth's pictures.(I have kept some time for shooting in Ruhr ...using my canon G10 and its optical defects).
As matter of fact, since 2008 I take pictures from landscapes (city, industry or nature).
I must admit that my questions have been rather confusely formulated.
Despite of this, I received very constructive answers. Thanks to the contibutors:
- My first question concerned the availibility of negative film.
Fred has given a clear answer in #61:
"Film availability is guarantee at least for enough years, there is a market (and a slightly growing market)."
- Concerning the quality of the scaned pictures, Frank give also a very useful technical information in #60.
- Your message is also very helpful: The true question consists in evaluating what pictures I want to obtain.
Therefore, there is no universal answer in the choice of any technic of photography.
I must confess that I shall never have enough money to buy any MF digital sensor, thus, for me,
MF format would be uniquely analogic.
In another way, concerning the use of 35mm numeric camera, I would greatly appreciate
whether you can relate your own experience concerning the pictures that you have obtained with such a camera.
May be the best solution for me would be to work with both the two systems:
an MF analogic format in a first hand, and a 35mm digital SLR in another hand.
Jean