Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: John.Murray on February 24, 2011, 12:33:09 pm
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Nice overview here:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/thunderbolt-technology-a-primer/11587?tag=content;selector-blogs
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This sounds great. So did FW800 and Betamax. Yet, the latter 2 never went mainstream (readily and cheaply available on just about everything) and I suspect Thunderbolt will follow their lead.
This is why I've stayed away from Mac. I know "they just work", but I want my computer to do more than work. A brick works. It might be the best brick in the world, perfectly sized, stronger than any other bricks, and great looking. But if I can't easily stack and build things with it and all the other bricks I have available then its just one great brick.
The article says some major manufacturers are coming out with products that use this interface. Great. How will they be priced? I can buy a USB3.0 SSD today that can pretty much reach its full potential with the USB3 port. Because there are (or in this example 'will') be a bunch of USB3 SSD's on the market which fit all the other bricks, it will be mass produced and reasonably priced. To me, this is more valuable than a Thunderbolt SSD which can transfer data 10% faster than UBS3 (limited by SSD technology of course), but is 200% more expensive.. which seems to be the case with the these sort of products.
It does say in the article Intel is working on a bunch of new products/uses.. but so far we haven't heard a whisper. Anyone read anything on a Thunderbolt device yet which is actually ready to come to market? If not, this means only high priced Mac devices will be available.. which won't be usable on PC's (a huge disadvantage for any professional user since our clients are probably in the realm of the 'average' PC user). Meanwhile, even if Thunderbolt does catch on and become mainstream, it will be at least several years and several new computer updates away.
Meanwhile Mac users are paying for this now. And what will it do for you now?
I'd feel much more optimistic about Thunderbolt if we were hearing whispers from Asus, Dell, Gigabyte, Western Digital, and the other big players in the PC market.. that their next versions would be TB ready.
Meanwhile.. USB3 has been available for over a year, and we are just now seeing USB3 devices becoming mainstream. It will probably be another 1-2 years before they really are mainstream.
DP is another wonderful interface.. just now starting to appear on the products we really want.
HDMI sure took off.. a great example of how it should be marketed and devices made compatible. A huge television, digital camera, and computer market coming together on this made it work.
Why does Mac always come up with this stuff. Is anyone really using their fiber optic connected drives? Very expensive. Most people I know when to Drobo's or other RAID devices instead. FW800 I'm sure is being used by the faithful, but how long did you wait to finally get usable products? How many great products do you find yourself wanting, if only it had FW800. And just when it became available, but not common, it's going away. Mac hasn't figured out yet, that if the PC side of the industry doesn't adopt it.. then it dies. They need to talk with each other. This flash debacle is a good example. PC users aren't being hurt by all this.. guess who is?
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Why does Mac always come up with this stuff. Is anyone really using their fiber optic connected drives? Very expensive. Most people I know when to Drobo's or other RAID devices instead. FW800 I'm sure is being used by the faithful, but how long did you wait to finally get usable products? How many great products do you find yourself wanting, if only it had FW800. And just when it became available, but not common, it's going away. Mac hasn't figured out yet, that if the PC side of the industry doesn't adopt it.. then it dies. They need to talk with each other. This flash debacle is a good example. PC users aren't being hurt by all this.. guess who is?
Actually, Apple didn't come up with this at all, nor the the Terms Thunderbolt, or Lightpeak - Intel did. You can definately expect this to be available on the Windows platform almost immediately. This technology is implemented at the chipset level (Cougar Point) - ensuring it widespread availability.
I agree with you in that i'm very tired of competing connection technologies - what is exciting to me is that multiple devices, including displays, cameras, storage can all be connected utililizing a (currently) copper based connector supporting bandwidths up to 10Gbps.
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I am also quite optimistic on that one if it works as advertised. Intel has the means to drive market adoption to a very high level very quickly. There's a huge need for more bandwidth. The key issue, imho, will be how much Intel charges for device makers (they claimed a cost of $2 per port, but manufacturers and competitors have been claiming an added cost of $10 to $15 for its integration. Not huge for Apple, but dissuasive for a card reader maufacturer.
But the need for a faster way to interface stuff is great. It's only a matter of time before one emerges.
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From the linked article:
"Several innovative companies have announced Thunderbolt technology-based products, or currently plan to support Thunderbolt technology in upcoming products, including Aja, Apogee, Avid, Blackmagic, LaCie, Promise, and Western Digital. Intel is working with the industry on a range of Thunderbolt technology-enabled products including computers, displays, storage devices, audio/video devices, cameras, docking stations and more"
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Great, another standard to cripple my content with DRM.
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I for one do not object to my laptop having a 10Gbps I/O. Call me crazy....
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Great, another standard to cripple my content with DRM.
I'm not sure I understand; you are criticizing the transmission medium for someone else's decision to enforce their intellectual property? If you are the content provider, its perfectly ok not to implement DRM
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This is why I've stayed away from Mac. I know "they just work", but I want my computer to do more than work. A brick works. It might be the best brick in the world, perfectly sized, stronger than any other bricks, and great looking. But if I can't easily stack and build things with it and all the other bricks I have available then its just one great brick.
Having had PCs for ten years before I stepped to Mac two years ago, the very thing with Mac is not only that it is a brick that works flawless, but a brick that works seemingly flawlessly with anything made to connect a Mac that I connect it to. That in essence is a whole different world than the compatiblity problems and indeed problems with bricks themself in PC world!
My last PC was Fujitsu notebook (made in Japan) and it managed to damage 3x HDD and 1x expensive at time 2GB ram. Support was likewise not good. Mac is a breeze... a whole different world where things are working and excellent support also evenings and saturdays only a call away.
No plan to upgrade soon, my two year old MB17" is working flawless. ;D If I did plan to, why complain... the Thunderbolt seem to be there instead of a displayport, and it accepts dipslay port... :o
Thanks Apple for making great products!!! :)
Regards
Anders
P.S. I should add, build quality is worlds ahead of any PC notebooks I seen. If my MB17 was a PC it would be time to upgrade, now it looks as if I can get another more two years out of it... Plus, maybe Windows 7 has taken PCs 5 years ahead, but Mac OS is seemingly 15 years more advanced after that...
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I'm not sure I understand; you are criticizing the transmission medium for someone else's decision to enforce their intellectual property? If you are the content provider, its perfectly ok not to implement DRM
I haven't looked at the specs, but I fear this is just another step in making HDCP non-optional, part of moving into running all software in virtual machines, and content distribution pay-per-use to ensure the customer doesn't own content - all in the name of copy "protection" which hurts paying customers but doesn't prevent piracy (http://blogs.consumerreports.org/electronics/2011/02/goodbye-hd-component-video-hello-analog-sunset.html).
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Actually, Apple didn't come up with this at all, nor the the Terms Thunderbolt, or Lightpeak - Intel did. You can definately expect this to be available on the Windows platform almost immediately. This technology is implemented at the chipset level (Cougar Point) - ensuring it widespread availability.
I agree with you in that i'm very tired of competing connection technologies - what is exciting to me is that multiple devices, including displays, cameras, storage can all be connected utililizing a (currently) copper based connector supporting bandwidths up to 10Gbps.
I certainly hope you're right and we have this technology widely available. Now what?
What do we need 10gbps for now, or anytime in the near future, other that what Feppe claims which I suspect has more truth than not.
The fastest yet to be released SSD's for SATAIII are 500mbps.. PCIe Revo's under 1gbps. Assuming TB/LP can tap into the bus at a base enough level, motherboards/buses/ram will all need to be redesigned to keep up. How far in the future is this going to take? Printers are still fine working at USB1 speeds. The fastest bandwidth choices in the home are running 150mbps.
So other than a few esoteric SSD's like the Revo's.. we're currently maxing out speeds at 500mbps for any device I can think of. USB3 is already here, and its backwards compatible to everything we've used for the last decade and a half.. so now what? What are we going to use it for? Perhaps they have amazing new technologies waiting to be introduced until such an interface is implemented? I dunno.. but I do wonder how much it's adding to the cost of an already overpriced Mac?
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Having had PCs for ten years before I stepped to Mac two years ago, the very thing with Mac is not only that it is a brick that works flawless, but a brick that works seemingly flawlessly with anything made to connect a Mac that I connect it to. That in essence is a whole different world than the compatiblity problems and indeed problems with bricks themself in PC world!
My last PC was Fujitsu notebook (made in Japan) and it managed to damage 3x HDD and 1x expensive at time 2GB ram. Support was likewise not good. Mac is a breeze... a whole different world where things are working and excellent support also evenings and saturdays only a call away.
No plan to upgrade soon, my two year old MB17" is working flawless. ;D If I did plan to, why complain... the Thunderbolt seem to be there instead of a displayport, and it accepts dipslay port... :o
Thanks Apple for making great products!!! :)
Regards
Anders
P.S. I should add, build quality is worlds ahead of any PC notebooks I seen. If my MB17 was a PC it would be time to upgrade, now it looks as if I can get another more two years out of it... Plus, maybe Windows 7 has taken PCs 5 years ahead, but Mac OS is seemingly 15 years more advanced after that...
We need to be careful when comparing notebooks. Most users have very limited exposure to laptops other than the one they own, or perhaps the one their kids or spouse owns.. maybe the company provided laptops. As with your qualifier "any laptops I've seen.."
So when they go and buy a brand new laptop, of almost any brand, its going to seem far ahead of what they had both in build quality and performance, just because its current/newer. In other words, it's usually not an accurate or current comparison.
I've never heard of a PC of any type that inherently broke hard drives or RAM. I've heard of bad runs of hard drives and RAM which goes bad.. but since the electronics of ALL notebooks, Mac and PC alike, are all using the same stuff, same hard drives, same RAM, same chipsets, same CPU's, etc, etc.. and all manufacturers take the lowest bids from any company that meets their specs.. I'm not buying that a PC/Mac is inherently better than a Mac/PC..
And even though almost all laptop are made in the same 2-3 factories, manufacturers DO specify the components for the build, LCD panels, video cards, CPU's, drives, etc.. so the level to which a PC is built can vary with price levels.
Perhaps the most significant way manufacturers distinguish themselves is through case design. Here, there's no doubt Mac is ahead of most. Their new unibody chassis is a work of art. Unfortunately it's also pretty average weight wise. For an average user perhaps this is okay, but when you want something lighter and even more durable, you'll want something like the Lenovo x201s (http://www.bangkokimages.com/Articles/Equipment/entryid/606/Lenovo-x201s-Thinkpad-Review.aspx), which has a one piece forged magnesium frame with kevlar coated carbon fiber panels, MILSPEC ratings for water/dust/shock, and a low 2.4 pound weight for a screaming fast i7 machine with a 12inch matte LED LCD with a standard 6-8 hour battery.
In any event, while Mac's certainly make an attractive product, you can certainly meet or exceed both the electronics and use defined build quality with PC's. You just need to sort through a rather daunting number of brands and models to find something, where with Mac's you just walk in and buy one of the only few models available.
Personally, compatibility with certain software and devices is important to me. I try to buy PC's which are ISV certified, and devices which are certified for both PC and Mac because you can't predict what you're clients will have or what weird circumstances you'll find yourself in where connectivity matters.
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Some people are talking about Light Peak and it's speed like we wouldn't reach it in the near future. However, we already have Fibrechannel stuff, which is quite fast, but could get replaced by light peak.
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Some people are talking about Light Peak and it's speed like we wouldn't reach it in the near future. However, we already have Fibrechannel stuff, which is quite fast, but could get replaced by light peak.
There is a big difference between multiplexing 100's of channels over a fiber optic line, and 'devices' we connect to a PC. I really can't think of any devices in the PC market that exceed the requirements of a PCIe Revo..
I'm sure such a connection could be used to interface external graphics cards, but even the newest graphics cards aren't being choked my the current PCIe v2..
Let's say the average person buys a new Mac Pro and keeps it for three years before replacing it. What do you guys see coming down the pike in the next three years that couldn't be handled through out current interfaces?
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We need to be careful when comparing notebooks. Most users have very limited exposure to laptops other than the one they own, or perhaps the one their kids or spouse owns.. maybe the company provided laptops. As with your qualifier "any laptops I've seen.."
So when they go and buy a brand new laptop, of almost any brand, its going to seem far ahead of what they had both in build quality and performance, just because its current/newer. In other words, it's usually not an accurate or current comparison.
I've never heard of a PC of any type that inherently broke hard drives or RAM. I've heard of bad runs of hard drives and RAM which goes bad.. but since the electronics of ALL notebooks, Mac and PC alike, are all using the same stuff, same hard drives, same RAM, same chipsets, same CPU's, etc, etc.. and all manufacturers take the lowest bids from any company that meets their specs.. I'm not buying that a PC/Mac is inherently better than a Mac/PC..
And even though almost all laptop are made in the same 2-3 factories, manufacturers DO specify the components for the build, LCD panels, video cards, CPU's, drives, etc.. so the level to which a PC is built can vary with price levels.
Perhaps the most significant way manufacturers distinguish themselves is through case design. Here, there's no doubt Mac is ahead of most. Their new unibody chassis is a work of art. Unfortunately it's also pretty average weight wise. For an average user perhaps this is okay, but when you want something lighter and even more durable, you'll want something like the Lenovo x201s (http://www.bangkokimages.com/Articles/Equipment/entryid/606/Lenovo-x201s-Thinkpad-Review.aspx), which has a one piece forged magnesium frame with kevlar coated carbon fiber panels, MILSPEC ratings for water/dust/shock, and a low 2.4 pound weight for a screaming fast i7 machine with a 12inch matte LED LCD with a standard 6-8 hour battery.
In any event, while Mac's certainly make an attractive product, you can certainly meet or exceed both the electronics and use defined build quality with PC's. You just need to sort through a rather daunting number of brands and models to find something, where with Mac's you just walk in and buy one of the only few models available.
Personally, compatibility with certain software and devices is important to me. I try to buy PC's which are ISV certified, and devices which are certified for both PC and Mac because you can't predict what you're clients will have or what weird circumstances you'll find yourself in where connectivity matters.
Well, it is fine if you not heard that notebook damaged HDD, but that is precise what I stated loud and clear in above as what was occurred on mine three times. That is fact. Likely cause was due to faulty cooling design of that notebook, because my Fujitsu just prior it was the best and most stable notebook I had, my last was plain junk. So much for the belief that Made in Japan should be better…
Reading what you post, somehow you seem in denial of that Mac is as good as people say. Well let me be frank, I was too before I found myself considering it. Frankly after two years of heavy use of my MacBook the number one thing I appreciate is that it works without problems, not only that more simple and far more advanced than PC. Two years ago Fujitsu was rated top in reliability of PC notebooks, Lenovo was rated higher only due to better support. That left me to consider Lenovo and… ehh.. that weird brand Apple which as an engineer I had stayed away from because an engineer cannot have Mac, can they? Well Macs run Windows more stable also (or perhaps because I only use Windows for one program…)… Only I was to realize two things with some research of Mac: Mac is far more advanced OS (you can do more, it is simpler to use), and… Lenovo’s new one at time that I had been aiming at was 15” and here in Hong Kong and was as expensive as the 17” then brand new unibody MacBook Pro. That was two years ago. As stated above I plan use mine two more years, it is that good and advanced.
You may well find yourself considering same path in future… if you research same as I did :).
And yes, while PCs advance year by year so do Macs. Thus obvious I am not a sheer fool to be deceived by the contrary in what I wrote above. The MacBooks are in my experience lightyears ahead of any PC in problem free durability and compatibility. One should perhaps question how they can sell them again to you when so durable and last longer than PC? Well… happens I bought one for my wife, am now on my second iPhone, and iPhone also for my wife, and sooon iPad with camera when comes out, works great with Skype on iPhone for my old parents to see us when we live far away. Thanks to Apple no more Windows Mobile to me, such a big difference, things from Apple works, are simple to use and compatible like a breeze!!!
Now… back to the connections on the new Mac… I am looking at specs of the 17”… did they remove something??? Yes… displayport… but… Thunderbolt can do that and more. Thus what is your whining about?????
I suggest you write facts if you reply back, or better… go get a Mac ;D. Thank you.
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What do we need 10gbps for now,
Uh??? What type of monitor are you using?
Well HDMI 1.3 and above/Display Port/Dual Link DVI are already in the 10 Gbit/s ballpark. If you are using a 30" monitor, chances are that you were already using 10 Gbits/s or close to that when you typed your message (2560 × 1600 × 30 bpp @ 60 Hz 10.46 8.06). Actually, one of the issues with LightPeak in its initial release is that it doesn't have enough bandwidth for monitors + something else or at higher refresh rates (not to mention power)
It should also be noted that the fact that some paths need 10 Gbits/s doesn't mean that all of this has to go to the processor or RAM. Your graphic card doesn't need a 10 Gbits/s input to produce a meaningful 10 Gbits/s output.
AFAIC, I'd go for a laptop using a single type of cable to connect to a 30" monitor, daisy chained to a external backup storage that doesn't need a power brick/connector and to a HD video camera. But there isn't _enough_ bandwidth for that at the moment, even in LightPeak v1
HDCP is a non issue for me. The only time I was slightly annoyed with it was when I couldn't connect an older high res beamer to a DVI/HDMI cable because the protocol wasn't supported. Other than that, it may add a few bucks in licensing here and there, but prices have been dropping so dramatically anyway...
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prior it was the best and most stable notebook I had, my last was plain junk. So much for the belief that Made in Japan should be better…
You are making several sweeping generalizations out of an awfully small data set! :-)
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Well, it is fine if you not heard that notebook damaged HDD, but that is precise what I stated loud and clear in above as what was occurred on mine three times. That is fact. Likely cause was due to faulty cooling design of that notebook, because my Fujitsu just prior it was the best and most stable notebook I had, my last was plain junk. So much for the belief that Made in Japan should be better…
Reading what you post, somehow you seem in denial of that Mac is as good as people say. Well let me be frank, I was too before I found myself considering it. Frankly after two years of heavy use of my MacBook the number one thing I appreciate is that it works without problems, not only that more simple and far more advanced than PC. Two years ago Fujitsu was rated top in reliability of PC notebooks, Lenovo was rated higher only due to better support. That left me to consider Lenovo and… ehh.. that weird brand Apple which as an engineer I had stayed away from because an engineer cannot have Mac, can they? Well Macs run Windows more stable also (or perhaps because I only use Windows for one program…)… Only I was to realize two things with some research of Mac: Mac is far more advanced OS (you can do more, it is simpler to use), and… Lenovo’s new one at time that I had been aiming at was 15” and here in Hong Kong and was as expensive as the 17” then brand new unibody MacBook Pro. That was two years ago. As stated above I plan use mine two more years, it is that good and advanced.
You may well find yourself considering same path in future… if you research same as I did :).
And yes, while PCs advance year by year so do Macs. Thus obvious I am not a sheer fool to be deceived by the contrary in what I wrote above. The MacBooks are in my experience lightyears ahead of any PC in problem free durability and compatibility. One should perhaps question how they can sell them again to you when so durable and last longer than PC? Well… happens I bought one for my wife, am now on my second iPhone, and iPhone also for my wife, and sooon iPad with camera when comes out, works great with Skype on iPhone for my old parents to see us when we live far away. Thanks to Apple no more Windows Mobile to me, such a big difference, things from Apple works, are simple to use and compatible like a breeze!!!
Now… back to the connections on the new Mac… I am looking at specs of the 17”… did they remove something??? Yes… displayport… but… Thunderbolt can do that and more. Thus what is your whining about?????
I suggest you write facts if you reply back, or better… go get a Mac ;D. Thank you.
1. So you really don't 'know' the notebook damaged the hard drive then since you're really not even sure why. Why would you think this and not a run of defective hard drives which has been documented in the past.. there is also the chance of operator error.. someone 'thinks' a hard drive went bad, when it fact there was an issue with the OS or who knows what else.. ::)
2. Well, how good do they say they are? Mac's are as good as PC's I'm sure, after all they're using the exact same components. I just don't believe that all Mac's are better than all PC's or that all PC's are better than all Mac's.
3. I have several laptops with >2 years of heavy use. Do they qualify to be the best?
4. Can you tell me what's so "advanced" on your Mac over my PC Laptops? And please don't say TB.. ;)
5. Mac's run Windows more stable than PC's? All PC's or just your hard drive eating machine? You do realize I can't help but have some fun with these gross generalizations.. ;D
6. I think you more than qualify to wear the Steve Job's sandals (with socks) and the gray turtleneck.. Heck, I think you should get the glasses too. :D
7. Oh my.. I can't match you for 'facts', that's for sure.. :-X
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Uh??? What type of monitor are you using?
Well HDMI 1.3 and above/Display Port/Dual Link DVI are already in the 10 Gbit/s ballpark. If you are using a 30" monitor, chances are that you were already using 10 Gbits/s or close to that when you typed your message (2560 × 1600 × 30 bpp @ 60 Hz 10.46 8.06). Actually, one of the issues with LightPeak in its initial release is that it doesn't have enough bandwidth for monitors + something else or at higher refresh rates (not to mention power)
It should also be noted that the fact that some paths need 10 Gbits/s doesn't mean that all of this has to go to the processor or RAM. Your graphic card doesn't need a 10 Gbits/s input to produce a meaningful 10 Gbits/s output.
AFAIC, I'd go for a laptop using a single type of cable to connect to a 30" monitor, daisy chained to a external backup storage that doesn't need a power brick/connector and to a HD video camera. But there isn't _enough_ bandwidth for that at the moment, even in LightPeak v1
HDCP is a non issue for me. The only time I was slightly annoyed with it was when I couldn't connect an older high res beamer to a DVI/HDMI cable because the protocol wasn't supported. Other than that, it may add a few bucks in licensing here and there, but prices have been dropping so dramatically anyway...
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Monitors are a good point.. but then my 20 year old DVI connector has been doing that okay.. And if HDMI is already 10gbps.. why not just use that?
You make another good point about power. There is a very real limit how much power we can run through these interfaces to run devices. When it comes to a laptop, we really don't want to be limited by AC cords in all our devices, so how much power can TB/LP put out.. and is it enough to power more than 1-2 devices?
Prices are another good point. (tongue in cheek) Mac's have plenty of room to drop in price.. ::)
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Apple is strange, add "Thunderbolt" but No HDMI, No Bluray, No CF slot, obviously Thunderbolt will probably take off someday, but right now are there any devices with this interface? I'm sure we will have HDs with it soon, but CF have been used for many years! And no flash on my Iphone :(
Finally Quadcore CPUs, wow, it's about time.
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1. So you really don't 'know' the notebook damaged the hard drive then since you're really not even sure why. Why would you think this and not a run of defective hard drives which has been documented in the past.. there is also the chance of operator error.. someone 'thinks' a hard drive went bad, when it fact there was an issue with the OS or who knows what else.. ::)
2. Well, how good do they say they are? Mac's are as good as PC's I'm sure, after all they're using the exact same components. I just don't believe that all Mac's are better than all PC's or that all PC's are better than all Mac's.
3. I have several laptops with >2 years of heavy use. Do they qualify to be the best?
4. Can you tell me what's so "advanced" on your Mac over my PC Laptops? And please don't say TB.. ;)
5. Mac's run Windows more stable than PC's? All PC's or just your hard drive eating machine? You do realize I can't help but have some fun with these gross generalizations.. ;D
6. I think you more than qualify to wear the Steve Job's sandals (with socks) and the gray turtleneck.. Heck, I think you should get the glasses too. :D
7. Oh my.. I can't match you for 'facts', that's for sure.. :-X
Ehh... ... Alright, let me politely and diligently put an end in this way:
SIR, in all respect but the above seem to demonstrate one thing: all you said in above posts IS complete B.S., CRAP and B.S. Period.
I will refrain from writing more to you, except... in regards to 1. it was verified by service centers of Fujitsu Korea and Fujitsu Hong Kong who both serviced that notebook multitude of times and they replaced also main board and more. I did have two HDDs in that notebook (which they said it was designed for, with their kit). Also the HDD fabricator said it was impossible for HDD to damage itself or computer, thus leaves the notebook. Regrettably Fujitsu themselves failed to admit and failed to replace the notebook. And SIR I do know how to use a computer proper, as stated I am an Engineer. Oh, when on PC I reinstalled all software every three months to keep problems away... not so with my Mac. No need, ever. And add: todays Mac are far exceed quality of PCs. Actually around 12-15 years ago I did have a Mac portable, it died when display gave up per say... or else that one was flawless without problems also...
Do try a Mac, you may become wiser (sadly took me long to realize ;D). Best of luck.
Regards
A
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Monitors are a good point.. but then my 20 year old DVI connector has been doing that okay.. And if HDMI is already 10gbps.. why not just use that?
so how much power can TB/LP put out.. and is it enough to power more than 1-2 devices?
DVI has been designed in 1999 - but I know this looks like an eternity. But if you want to run a 30" monitor at 2560x1600, you need a dual link DVI cable. The key feature of Lightpeak is that it is just a link, with silicon logic that does the protocol translation. That means that you can run multiple different devices with their native drivers transparently. The spec gives 10W as far as power is concerned. A SSD drive like the Intel G25 needs something like 150mw in use. A 2.5 inch hard drive needs around 2W, maybe peaking a bit above that in an external enclosure. Monitors, of course, require much more than that.
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I have 4-5 Macs and about a dozen PCs. There really isn't that much difference. PC vs Mac wars don't really deserve attention. AFAIC, if I want a really powerful machine, I build a custom PC. If I want a laptop that resumes almost instantly when I open it. I go for Mac. But that's just me, and features that are important to me. In recent years, I've had 3 machines go down on me for one reason of another: two of them were Macs (defective display in a iMac, dead motherboard in a 17" MacBook Pro, blown capacitors in one PC). But I certainly wouldn't describe my experience as statistically meaningful.
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Gemmtech: The Displayport I/F supports HDMI (simple adapter) including audio
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HDCP is a non issue for me. The only time I was slightly annoyed with it was when I couldn't connect an older high res beamer to a DVI/HDMI cable because the protocol wasn't supported. Other than that, it may add a few bucks in licensing here and there, but prices have been dropping so dramatically anyway...
The link I provided earlier shows that you won't be able to output analog at all in the near future unless you circumvent copy "protection" - which might be illegal depending on your jurisdiction (it most likely is in the entire US due to DMCA). Even if you don't need to connect to legacy devices and don't have issues with HDCP doesn't mean no one does. HDCP adds another layer of unnecessary complexity resulting in unexplained connection issues, breaks backward compatibility, and adds cost.
But most importantly: what benefit do consumers get from HDCP? Most likely absolutely nothing.
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Apple is strange, add "Thunderbolt" but No HDMI, No Bluray, No CF slot, obviously Thunderbolt will probably take off someday, but right now are there any devices with this interface? I'm sure we will have HDs with it soon, but CF have been used for many years! And no flash on my Iphone :(
Finally Quadcore CPUs, wow, it's about time.
The idea is 'Thunderbolt' can be anything just by using an adapter as i understand. At last one plug that does it all!
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Gemmtech: The Displayport I/F supports HDMI (simple adapter) including audio
I realize that, but you always have to buy an adapter with Apple or a card reader or something. I just wish Apple were more open architecture and I wish they went more mainstream. I do like their products, though I would never buy a Mac Pro because as stated many times before, the most powerful and least expensive route is to build your own.
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;) I understand - but try as they might, they just couldn't get a VGA, Dual-Link DVI and HDMI interface to fit on the side of a laptop. Instead, those unthinking jerks at apple went with a mini-display port connector that, as of yesterday, just so happens to support so much more . . . .
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;) I understand - but try as they might, they just couldn't get a VGA, Dual-Link DVI and HDMI interface to fit on the side of a THEIR laptop. Instead, those unthinking jerks at apple went with a mini-display port connector that, as of yesterday, just so happens to support so much more . . . .
Fixed your quote...
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The link I provided earlier shows that you won't be able to output analog at all in the near future unless you circumvent copy "protection" - which might be illegal depending on your jurisdiction (it most likely is in the entire US due to DMCA). Even if you don't need to connect to legacy devices and don't have issues with HDCP doesn't mean no one does. HDCP adds another layer of unnecessary complexity resulting in unexplained connection issues, breaks backward compatibility, and adds cost.
But most importantly: what benefit do consumers get from HDCP? Most likely absolutely nothing.
The disappearance of analog outputs is a non-issue for me, but I understand it can be an issue for some people. In practice, I do agree with you that HDCP has no direct benefit whatsoever for the customer. But after spending 4000 EUR in the 1990s for good 21 inch CRTs, Matrox cards and other similar stuff, I can't help thinking that the downward price spiral more than compensates for new minorl inconveniences.
I used the term "direct benefit" intentionally because imho the existence of HDCP was what initially allowed content to be made available (a clear indirect benefit). Likewise, Apple's DRM on music was technically a complete joke. Yet, it is what finally decided content providers to join the fiesta. We always have the feeling that those technical restrictions have a big negative potential. In theory, they have, but competition keeps them in check and they allow a smoother transition to the next paradigms by reassuring content providers.
A somewhat perverse view, granted. ;-0
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Ehh... ... Alright, let me politely and diligently put an end in this way:
SIR, in all respect but the above seem to demonstrate one thing: all you said in above posts IS complete B.S., CRAP and B.S. Period.
I will refrain from writing more to you, except... in regards to 1. it was verified by service centers of Fujitsu Korea and Fujitsu Hong Kong who both serviced that notebook multitude of times and they replaced also main board and more. I did have two HDDs in that notebook (which they said it was designed for, with their kit). Also the HDD fabricator said it was impossible for HDD to damage itself or computer, thus leaves the notebook. Regrettably Fujitsu themselves failed to admit and failed to replace the notebook. And SIR I do know how to use a computer proper, as stated I am an Engineer. Oh, when on PC I reinstalled all software every three months to keep problems away... not so with my Mac. No need, ever. And add: todays Mac are far exceed quality of PCs. Actually around 12-15 years ago I did have a Mac portable, it died when display gave up per say... or else that one was flawless without problems also...
Do try a Mac, you may become wiser (sadly took me long to realize ;D). Best of luck.
Regards
A
1. You'll have to excuse me, as an engineer I'm sure you understand the concept of GIGO.. ;D
2. I can't believe a hard drive manufacturer would tell you it's impossible for a hard drive to fail. Well.. okay, I can. I just don't believe anyone would believe them.
3. Perhaps because it really wasn't the computer? And you still don't know exactly what failed or how do you? You have a theory and that's the basis of your entire rant on the notebook. Got it.
4. You really don't think you being an engineer means you know ANYTHING about computers do you? Other than maybe programs you use in your specific field of engineering? Are you a computer engineer? Electronics engineer? Software engineer? Anything at all related to the topic.. or do you build roads and bridges?
5. You tend to grossly generalize, as you did about Mac's exceeding the quality of PC's. An electronics/software/computer engineer wouldn't do this. Sure, Mac's exceed the quality of some PC's, but it's really a case by case model by model comparison of the internal components.. unless you're talking style or build.. and then I'll give you Mac's have more style and in many cases a better build quality, but by no means all..
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I'm astonished about how news about a new external bus interface brings up comments about Digital Rights Management and "Copy Protection". I still fail to understand the relationship, other than, being a conduit of DRM'd content.
I personally have no problem with DRM, and also understand the fact the it doesn't necessarilly benefit consumers. HDCP is *not* there for your "benefit"; it's there to protect the content providers. Things have come a long way from the Sony Betamax court decision and it's introduction (and subsequent whoring) of the terms "fair use" and copies for personal use. The fact remains that digital copies are perfect.
Tell ya what? Whats stops you, Micheal, Jeff, or any of the other amazingly talented people from just sharing your original digital content, unaltered, for us to enjoy? What if there was a way to actually do that, without giving the audience the ability to duplicate and subsequently re-distribute with out permission? Thats precisely what is happening when you watch HD content. I for one love the quality of the experience.....
Now, back to benefitting consumers...... everybody remember CD's? Perfect copies...... Now look at whats available, especially alternative forms of music (classical for me) - it's gone wayyyyyyy downhill! Music distribution has degraded to lo-fi mp3 and itunes content, we've lost both quality and selection. So much for fair use......
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DVI has been designed in 1999 - but I know this looks like an eternity. But if you want to run a 30" monitor at 2560x1600, you need a dual link DVI cable. The key feature of Lightpeak is that it is just a link, with silicon logic that does the protocol translation. That means that you can run multiple different devices with their native drivers transparently. The spec gives 10W as far as power is concerned. A SSD drive like the Intel G25 needs something like 150mw in use. A 2.5 inch hard drive needs around 2W, maybe peaking a bit above that in an external enclosure. Monitors, of course, require much more than that.
All good points. 10 watts is indeed a decent amount of power, but you need to look at peak power draw in which case most SSD's are in the 5-7watt range and a regular hard drive (2.5 inch) up to 10 watts.. But maybe the 10 watts it supplies isn't a peak rating either. I'll need to look at this more closely.
I've done some more reading on LR since this thread started and it does seem to be an impressive interface. Though, I still wish that just once.. we'd see the devices/computers/software all happen in a reasonable amount of time, and not take years to implement.
1999? Ya, it does seem like forever.. The last time I used VGA on a desktop was with a CRT.. its fun to go back and look at when different technologies impacted our lives.
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1. You'll have to excuse me, as an engineer I'm sure you understand the concept of GIGO.. ;D
2. I can't believe a hard drive manufacturer would tell you it's impossible for a hard drive to fail. Well.. okay, I can. I just don't believe anyone would believe them.
3. Perhaps because it really wasn't the computer? And you still don't know exactly what failed or how do you? You have a theory and that's the basis of your entire rant on the notebook. Got it.
4. You really don't think you being an engineer means you know ANYTHING about computers do you? Other than maybe programs you use in your specific field of engineering? Are you a computer engineer? Electronics engineer? Software engineer? Anything at all related to the topic.. or do you build roads and bridges?
5. You tend to grossly generalize, as you did about Mac's exceeding the quality of PC's. An electronics/software/computer engineer wouldn't do this. Sure, Mac's exceed the quality of some PC's, but it's really a case by case model by model comparison of the internal components.. unless you're talking style or build.. and then I'll give you Mac's have more style and in many cases a better build quality, but by no means all..
Steve,
There is no point in me repeating what I have already stated above. However, do please take strong note that it is incorrect and offensive of you stating assumptions of my person or the case I had with that notebook and more of which you obvious know absolute nothing about. Thank you.
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I understand - but try as they might, they just couldn't get a VGA, Dual-Link DVI and HDMI interface to fit on the side of a laptop. Instead, those unthinking jerks at apple went with a mini-display port connector that, as of yesterday, just so happens to support so much more . . . .
I have several large screens LCD/LED TVs as do my brothers and I can't find a single display port connector on any of them, none on the Sonys, Samsungs or LGs.
Excuse me, display port connector supports so much more? Which Monitors and or TVs does display port support that HDMI or DVI don't? There are many monitors that don't have a display port connector. I know, I know, buy an adapter!
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I'm astonished about how news about a new external bus interface brings up comments about Digital Rights Management and "Copy Protection". I still fail to understand the relationship, other than, being a conduit of DRM'd content.
I personally have no problem with DRM, and also understand the fact the it doesn't necessarilly benefit consumers. HDCP is *not* there for your "benefit"; it's there to protect the content providers. Things have come a long way from the Sony Betamax court decision and it's introduction (and subsequent whoring) of the terms "fair use" and copies for personal use. The fact remains that digital copies are perfect.
Tell ya what? Whats stops you, Micheal, Jeff, or any of the other amazingly talented people from just sharing your original digital content, unaltered, for us to enjoy? What if there was a way to actually do that, without giving the audience the ability to duplicate and subsequently re-distribute with out permission? Thats precisely what is happening when you watch HD content. I for one love the quality of the experience.....
Now, back to benefitting consumers...... everybody remember CD's? Perfect copies...... Now look at whats available, especially alternative forms of music (classical for me) - it's gone wayyyyyyy downhill! Music distribution has degraded to lo-fi mp3 and itunes content, we've lost both quality and selection. So much for fair use......
Now it's you, sir, who's taking the discussion on a tangent. HDCP and DRM are very relevant to Thunderbold discussion: as I pointed out, HDCP does not protect content providers, never has, never will. It is a speedbump to casual copyright infringers, a non-issue to professional pirates, an inconvenience to regular customers, and it turns people who need to use legacy hardware or otherwise circumvent HDCP for perfectly legitimate reasons into criminals.
It has been natural that each technological step takes us forward in convenience and quality - but in a brave new world that's not the case anymore.
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Steve,
There is no point in me repeating what I have already stated above. However, do please take strong note that it is incorrect and offensive of you stating assumptions of my person or the case I had with that notebook and more of which you obvious know absolute nothing about. Thank you.
No offense was meant and I really don't understand why you would be offended. I only know what you stated in your posts. Based on the information you provided it's apparent Fuji didn't agree with you any more than I do about your laptop being a 'hard drive' killer. You're the one who brought up being an engineer as a way to support your statement, like I was supposed to believe you based not on the information you provided.. but because you told me you're an engineer. The logic of this is as flawed as your generalizations.
The Mac vs. Pc debate can only be good natured and fun.. it's obvious to anyone familiar with both products, that on the component level they couldn't be any more the same. And even at different levels of power/capability reliable function is the same. A $600 laptop tends to be every bit as reliable (electronically) as a $3000 laptop. Modern electronics are great, and a manufacturer can't afford to put out poor products on any level. Sure, there are bad runs (hard drives especially because they have mechanical components), but bad runs happen at all price points.
So please don't be offended. After all, it's not like I told you your entire post was 'COMPLETE BS., CRAP, and B.S. Period', that would be just plain rude, crass, and uncalled for in a civil discussion. The only thing more rude than that, would be the same person turning around and then claiming they were the offended party.. ::)
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So please don't be offended. After all, it's not like I told you your entire post was 'COMPLETE BS., CRAP, and B.S. Period', that would be just plain rude, crass, and uncalled for in a civil discussion. The only thing more rude than that, would be the same person turning around and then claiming they were the offended party.. ::)
You just won the internet.
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Firstly, I think Thunderbolt is a stupid name. Lightpeak was so much better.
Secondly, I'm peeved that I won't be able to fit a TB Card to my 3 week old Mac Pro as I understand you need a whole new motherboard.
Blu-Ray won't ever come to corperation Mac, it defeats the purpose of buying movies on iTunes. HDMI won't for the same reason because of Apple TV.
It's a forward thinking, but odd way move to put tech in so new that there aren't even any peripherials as yet.
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HDMI won't for the same reason because of Apple TV.
Wait, what? Macs don't have HDMI outs?
It's a forward thinking, but odd way move to put tech in so new that there aren't even any peripherials as yet.
Perfectly normal, exactly the way USB2 was rolled out, and same status as USB3 right now.
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No offense was meant and I really don't understand why you would be offended. I only know what you stated in your posts. Based on the information you provided it's apparent Fuji didn't agree with you any more than I do about your laptop being a 'hard drive' killer. You're the one who brought up being an engineer as a way to support your statement, like I was supposed to believe you based not on the information you provided.. but because you told me you're an engineer. The logic of this is as flawed as your generalizations.
The Mac vs. Pc debate can only be good natured and fun.. it's obvious to anyone familiar with both products, that on the component level they couldn't be any more the same. And even at different levels of power/capability reliable function is the same. A $600 laptop tends to be every bit as reliable (electronically) as a $3000 laptop. Modern electronics are great, and a manufacturer can't afford to put out poor products on any level. Sure, there are bad runs (hard drives especially because they have mechanical components), but bad runs happen at all price points.
So please don't be offended. After all, it's not like I told you your entire post was 'COMPLETE BS., CRAP, and B.S. Period', that would be just plain rude, crass, and uncalled for in a civil discussion. The only thing more rude than that, would be the same person turning around and then claiming they were the offended party.. ::)
You just won the internet.
One can win by twisting words, away from truths??? :o
Seems in above a person was questioning after questioning, giving false accusations to what I have stated as my experience, including as to question my competence and experience to point of drag me in, to dig deeper and deeper... and twisting words and even truths of what he does not know and to what they are not. My personal opinion of that action (no offense meant) frank is what I stated in bold in above. That applies also to last post :). And no, in my opinion Mac vs PC debate is not fun, and certainly not a point I meant to make.
What I already indicated of that problem PC notebook was that it was heat which was the likely and indeed concluded problem issue, thus seems improper design and/or choice of components (quality issue). I also stated that my experience in regards to the alleged "bricks" called Mac (termed so by a certain poster) is complete different and opposite to with PC, hence well implemented and they not only work but do so by a very large factor of far more problem free. Thus seems that components are for these "bricks" well paired and of good quality, and in my experience and opinion also the OS is far superior. On that subject...
... since it is Mac I would expect Thunderbolt to have been proper implemented (with appropriate components and design to support it)... In my opinion Thunderbolt seem incredibly interesting:
http://www.lacie.com/us/technologies/technology.htm?id=10039 from which is attached image and which appears to indicate amazing and useful speed.
Regards
Anders
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I have several large screens LCD/LED TVs as do my brothers and I can't find a single display port connector on any of them, none on the Sonys, Samsungs or LGs.
Excuse me, display port connector supports so much more? Which Monitors and or TVs does display port support that HDMI or DVI don't? There are many monitors that don't have a display port connector. I know, I know, buy an adapter!
Yes! Buy the adapters!!!! I happen to have 2, one to HDMI, the other the DVI - i think i'm into both for about 30-40 bucks total. My point is this - they will also work on a thunderbolt bus.
Let me put this another way, I do a fair amount of event photography - shooting either location portraits for large numbers of people, action photos or both. My current setup requires me to:
1) connect camera / media for tethering / capture
2) connect external storage for backup
3) connect external display for clients to view and hopefully order results
would be nice to have a single external bus technology (and connector) supporting all of the above? no?
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would be nice to have a single external bus technology (and connector) supporting all of the above? no?
Yea, until the port gets damaged or otherwise fails and the entire link goes down.
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I also stated that my experience in regards to the alleged "bricks" called Mac (termed so by a certain poster) is complete different and opposite to with PC, hence well implemented and they not only work but do so by a very large factor of far more problem free. Thus seems that components are for these "bricks" well paired and of good quality, and in my experience and opinion also the OS is far superior.
Regards
Anders
Well,as I stated in another thread I just purchased an i7 Macbook Pro after years of using pc's. Now I'm vested in wanting this $2000 laptop to work in my system. Sadly it does not work. I can't get a usb laptop/camera connection on it using the same hardware I've used sucessfully for years. Now I'm left with a $2000 paperweight while I will need to continue to take a $700 windows laptop that works perfectly to the jobsite.
Now I'm sure that somehow I'll get the Mac sorted. But the question is why should that be required? If the hardware and os is that much better, why the problems?
The Macbook is a pretty piece to be sure, and my wife enjoys playing Farmville on it. But right now it's a production paperweight and if I can't get it to function in a proper manner with the rest of my gear its going to be a very expensive lesson.
Meanwhile my W7 workstation and laptops continue to crank out cash....
Color me wanting for now.
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One can win by twisting words, away from truths??? :o
Regards
Anders
They were your words. In bold face. No twisting necessary as I thought they were quite clear as is. It was an enjoyable discussion.
Have you ever noticed Mac converts are a bit like a born again Christian or a recovered alcoholic? Not very objective about religion or alcohol use at all. You've just gotta love them.
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"my wife enjoys playing Farmville on it."
Can you get Angry Birds on that thing? I'm having trouble getting past level 27, maybe a bigger screen would help..
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"my wife enjoys playing Farmville on it."
Can you get Angry Birds on that thing? I'm having trouble getting past level 27, maybe a bigger screen would help..
Angry birds is great on the Ipad.....:)
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Angry birds is great on the Ipad.....:)
That justifies buying one just by itself. I wonder if you can hot rod the thing with one of the new intel msata ssd's..
Sigh, it's just a dream. My wife would steal it as sure as I'm sitting here. :'(
I could buy two.. ???
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Now I'm left with a $2000 paperweight while I will need to continue to take a $700 windows laptop that works perfectly to the jobsite.
sell the mac, they hold their value better than P.C.'s
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sell the mac, they hold their value better than P.C.'s
I'll just return it and get my money back.
I simply don't need the headache.
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Have you ever noticed Mac converts are a bit like a born again Christian or a recovered alcoholic? Not very objective about religion or alcohol use at all. You've just gotta love them.
...Says the guy who's spent this whole thread assuring himself everyone else that his computing preferences are the CORRECT ones.
You want to win this game? Here's my advice: don't play.
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Yea, until the port gets damaged or otherwise fails and the entire link goes down.
that would be true of any connector / technology, would it not?
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that would be true of any connector / technology, would it not?
Yes, but all the eggs are in one basket so to speak with thunderbolt.
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Yes, but all the eggs are in one basket so to speak with thunderbolt.
Well, that makes a failure more catastrophic, I guess. On the other hand, you've only got to rely on one thing not failing, as opposed to relying on three things to all not fail. Not sure there's a clear advantage one way or the other, at least in general.
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Seems things are moving on the Thunderbolt front
http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/04/video-hardware-makers-announce-thunderbolt-support-at-nab.ars
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Definately cool stuff - including a Thunderbolt to Fiber Channel Adapter :)
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/thunderbolt-storage-surprises-at-nab-11/1343?tag=content;selector-blogs
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http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=21377
AMD and Intel's chipsets to support USB 3.0 soon (today and in a few months).
Cheers,
Bernard
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Well,as I stated in another thread I just purchased an i7 Macbook Pro after years of using pc's. Now I'm vested in wanting this $2000 laptop to work in my system. Sadly it does not work. I can't get a usb laptop/camera connection on it using the same hardware I've used sucessfully for years. Now I'm left with a $2000 paperweight while I will need to continue to take a $700 windows laptop that works perfectly to the jobsite.
Curious as to just what it is you are trying to hook up? By 'same hardware I've used for years', are you refering to parallel/serial?
I've got a lovely IBM R52 I'll trade you for the MBP.
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Curious as to just what it is you are trying to hook up? By 'same hardware I've used for years', are you refering to parallel/serial?
I've got a lovely IBM R52 I'll trade you for the MBP.
A 30 foot active usb cable and a Canon 1DsMKIII. The 2010 MBP never did work.
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30 foot is about twice the specification.
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30 foot is about twice the specification.
Specs or not it works perfectly, on everything Windows I ever plugged it into. (and thats a large set of machines over the years) I use it daily. Often at 45 feet.
2010 MBP was a complete failure. 2011 MBP works.
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So, the MBP is junk because of a compatibility problem with an existing USB cable setup? Seems a long way around the teapot to get to the handle. If your '$700' Windows machine was working fine, and you are a confirmed MS user, why the MBP? Not sure what the 2010/2011 reference is to, as you stated you just picked up one new computer. And if it was the 2011 i7, you stated it works, so should not be a 'paperweight'.
Still can't envision a tethered camera application for a 45' USB only cable run and have never seen a single cable that long. Active cables strung together or cables connected with powered hubs, yeah, as well as RJ45/USB networks. As USB is an OS agnostic standard, equivalent spec'd machines would perform about the same, like the '10 and '11 MBPs.
As far as this new standard is concerned, it'll either fail or in a couple years everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about. Much like USB/firewire and the elimination of floppies(remember those?). And like now, you'll be able to get adaptors so you can continue to use your old stuff.
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So, the MBP is junk because of a compatibility problem with an existing USB cable setup? Seems a long way around the teapot to get to the handle. If your '$700' Windows machine was working fine, and you are a confirmed MS user, why the MBP? Not sure what the 2010/2011 reference is to, as you stated you just picked up one new computer. And if it was the 2011 i7, you stated it works, so should not be a 'paperweight'.
Still can't envision a tethered camera application for a 45' USB only cable run and have never seen a single cable that long. Active cables strung together or cables connected with powered hubs, yeah, as well as RJ45/USB networks. As USB is an OS agnostic standard, equivalent spec'd machines would perform about the same, like the '10 and '11 MBPs.
As far as this new standard is concerned, it'll either fail or in a couple years everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about. Much like USB/firewire and the elimination of floppies(remember those?). And like now, you'll be able to get adaptors so you can continue to use your old stuff.
Well yea, the 201 MPB WAS junk...TO ME since it would not work for the application I wanted to use it for. pretty simple.
I guess you just don't have much in the "envison" department. Pretty much NEED 30 to 45 feet of tethering cable to shoot the products I do in the manner i do. You can't believe that no one wants or uses a USB tether cable that's only 5 meters long do you?
I spec'ed that the cable was active. I originally had the 2010 i7 dual core. The computer simply did not work for MY intended application. Neither did the other 2010 MBP's that were tested. The product was fatally flawed..FOR ME...and the intended application.
The 2011 i7 quad core DID work for the application I intended. But it too was a flawed machine. Don't get me started on system freezes and fan run-a ways.
Long story short. it took FOUR different MBP's to get the two we now have that work "ok".
You ask WHY? Why not. All I have heard for years is that Mac's just work. Decided to find out for myself. Found it not to be entirely true....
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Why belabor the issue?
1) you insist on mis-using a bus technology beyond it's stated design characteristics and attempt to justify it "because it works"
2) you then transfer the blame for this on a particular computer or computers, describing as "junk" an entire product line based on a single sample.
kinda like taking a roush motor rated at 11k rpm, plopping into a couple of different chassis - running both beyond spec, and calling the *car* that ends up with a blown motor crap...... ya know?
I've had similar needs for extended usb runs, did the homework, talked to the right people and ended up with a reliable and repeatable solution (medical imaging) that works irrespective of any platform, I shared that with you, but I guess throwing expensive laptops and getting all frustrated and venting here is a better use of your time.
Anyway, you ended up with *something* that appears to work for you - thats good!
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Why belabor the issue?
1) you insist on mis-using a bus technology beyond it's stated design characteristics and attempt to justify it "because it works"
2) you then transfer the blame for this on a particular computer or computers, describing as "junk" an entire product line based on a single sample.
kinda like taking a roush motor rated at 11k rpm, plopping into a couple of different chassis - running both beyond spec, and calling the *car* that ends up with a blown motor crap...... ya know?
I've had similar needs for extended usb runs, did the homework, talked to the right people and ended up with a reliable and repeatable solution (medical imaging) that works irrespective of any platform, I shared that with you, but I guess throwing expensive laptops and getting all frustrated and venting here is a better use of your time.
Anyway, you ended up with *something* that appears to work for you - thats good!
Why "belabor"? Are you nuts? I shared my problems and the solution and went on with my life. New poster brings it up ...AGAIN. I reply with the facts.
The SIMPLE fact is the active USB system has and continues to work DAILY. Since there are quite a few companies selling active USB cables ( and reviews from many happy customers) it appears that I'm NOT the only one using them with success. It NOW works on the MBP.
Lets review. Active USB works great on runs up to 45 (maybe longer but that the limit of my experience) feet on all the windows platforms I have used both desktops and laptops.....for years. Active USB FAILS on 2010 MBP, ( MULTIPLE SAMPLES) rendering that series of product USELESS for MY application. 2011 MBP works perfectly with active USB for 45 foot runs. Conclusion: Apple mucked up the USB on the 2010 MBP.
BTW, I went to purchase the cat 5 extender system for the 2010 MBP. Tested it in the store prior to purchase. Failed to connect with the 1DsMKIII at 25 feet.
Now the 2011 product is not without its faults and problems as has been noted in the numerous huge threads on the Apple support forum and the countless samples that have been returned because they are defective. Clearly my problems are not an isolated case.
I now have 2-15" 2011 MPB's that mostly work. One still has minor unresolved problems.
Now my experience with the MBP product line might be unique, but the sheer amount of problems others are having suggests that's not the case.
After years of using windows we decided to give Apple a try. The hardware is elegant and fast. The OS is "different". EVERYONE says Mac's just work.
I have a vested interest in seeing the MBP's work for me. $5000.00 worth. And now they do for the most part. I'm starting to get comfortable with the system and I use it every day. Just not on location as a tether machine...not yet. Still lacking a level of trust to make that step.
But I must say the trial and tribulations have far exceeded anything I have ever encountered. And this from a company and platform with reputation for excellence and a premium price point.
It's clearly NOT the experience I am used too nor expected. Sorry if reporting that experience bothers you.
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Why belabor the issue?
1) you insist on mis-using a bus technology beyond it's stated design characteristics and attempt to justify it "because it works"
Wow.. now we need to 'justify' our personal work flow. And responding to a post is now "belaboring."
As someone who actually owns a Roush motor.. and pushes it beyond it's limits in search of more performance, better efficiency, and reliability.. and who has been an Extra class radio operator for decades and amateur radio has been responsible for developing and "pushing" new technologies we use every day and most don't even realize.. well.. you see I admire those who push the limits of their photography, both technically and artistically. Without such people we wouldn't be having nearly as much fun.
Takes all types I suppose. This is good!
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As you had provided no details as to your working situation or subject or even what the actual problem is(or even if you were looking for a solution), I'll give it a whack.
You're photographing prototype military aircraft in a secured hanger, which forces the tethered laptop to be outside the building. Or maybe an event guy, who uses a crane to get over the heads of the herd of photogs and spectators. Or maybe it's a car comercial, and you need to be tethered in a helicopter hovering over the set. You have lousy wifi reception in your building and the laptop needs to be on the roof. Hidden cameras(nudge-nudge, wink-wink). ETc, etc, etc...
Every PC I've used has worked flawlessly right out of the box and has never needed repair, maintenance, or even a reboot. Every devise I've ever connected to them has worked seamlessly from the start, same with the firmware and software. Guess the reason people continue with Macs is due to a strong masochistic streak. One good thing about them is they retain their value, so if you unload the dogs quickly, you should recoup most of your investment.
I guess you just don't have much in the "envison" department. Pretty much NEED 30 to 45 feet of tethering cable to shoot the products I do in the manner i do. You can't believe that no one wants or uses a USB tether cable that's only 5 meters long do you?
You ask WHY? Why not. All I have heard for years is that Mac's just work. Decided to find out for myself. Found it not to be entirely true....
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As you had provided no details as to your working situation or subject or even what the actual problem is(or even if you were looking for a solution), I'll give it a whack.
You're photographing prototype military aircraft in a secured hanger, which forces the tethered laptop to be outside the building. Or maybe an event guy, who uses a crane to get over the heads of the herd of photogs and spectators. Or maybe it's a car comercial, and you need to be tethered in a helicopter hovering over the set. You have lousy wifi reception in your building and the laptop needs to be on the roof. Hidden cameras(nudge-nudge, wink-wink). ETc, etc, etc...
Every PC I've used has worked flawlessly right out of the box and has never needed repair, maintenance, or even a reboot. Every devise I've ever connected to them has worked seamlessly from the start, same with the firmware and software. Guess the reason people continue with Macs is due to a strong masochistic streak. One good thing about them is they retain their value, so if you unload the dogs quickly, you should recoup most of your investment.
Your streak continues. If you could research and read you would know exactly what type of products I shoot and how I do it. You would have then also known the EXACT nature of the problem and the the steps I undertook to try and solve it.
But instead you just jumped in with both feet completely ignorant of facts and then, as a stroke of genius, you suggest that wanting to work tethered at a distance of 30 to 45 feet is somehow unimaginable.
Congratulations.
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Errr, the reason USB is length limited is due to timing issues, not just signal degradation. An active cable deals with one part of that, but not the other.
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Errr, the reason USB is length limited is due to timing issues, not just signal degradation. An active cable deals with one part of that, but not the other.
And yet 45 feet works like a champ transferring 1DSMKIII raw data.....at least on everything I've tried EXCEPT a 2010 MBP...you do the math.
Tomorrow I'll make sure to tell my camera and computer that the signal is too degraded for the data that makes its way down the wire to be usable. Yea, that's the ticket.
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Yes it's excellent that you have a solution that works for you, but you seem to be getting very upset when people explain to you that the underlying issue is that you're exceeding the specification for the technology that you're using. Of course it's not a hard cut off, but you can't guarantee that you'll not have issues in the future if you continue to exceed the specification.
There's no need for the sarcastic responses. Factual information is just that, factual. You can do with it as you please, including ignoring it if that floats your boat.
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Yes it's excellent that you have a solution that works for you, but you seem to be getting very upset when people explain to you that the underlying issue is that you're exceeding the specification for the technology that you're using. Of course it's not a hard cut off, but you can't guarantee that you'll not have issues in the future if you continue to exceed the specification.
There's no need for the sarcastic responses. Factual information is just that, factual. You can do with it as you please, including ignoring it if that floats your boat.
No everyone seems to be getting upset that the mighty Mac just might not be so mighty.
Again..the FACTS.
USB with active extension works perfectly with many different vintages and configurations of windows computers ( starting when the 1DSMKII was released] also works perfectly with numerous 5d and Rebel cameras.
USB with active extension FAILS on 2010 vintage MBP ( various samples)
USB with active extension works perfectly with 2011 vintage MBP ( various samples)
Factual information, empirically tested.
Now if you want to reach the conclusion that the problem for the 2010 vintage MBP was exceeding the USB specs, be my guest.
You now have the factual information. Do with it as you please including ignoring it if that floats your boat.
Oh, let me add me more kicker. 15' usb active cable, with a 6 inch mini usb for the camera..total length LESS than 5 meters...FAIL on the 2010 MBP....
I'm done.
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No everyone seems to be getting upset that the mighty Mac just might not be so mighty.
Nail on the head..
I suppose brand loyalty has its place, but most of the time it seems almost immature. You use the tool that works for you no matter what name is on it.. and if another tool works better, then use it.
Limitations of our different variables are something we deal with in many aspects of photography. Not sure why it seems to upset people when we focus on just one. But then, I love pushing the envelope. Someday I hope it shows in my photography.. ;)
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I'm not upset at all about Mac vs: Windows, where did you ever get that idea? Professionally, I design, maintain and service Active Directory based networks - specializing in Exchange, Database and Remote access via Terminal Services. I'm an Intel Channel partner and have been an active MSDN subscriber since the program's inception (1992). My clients range from multi-clinic Health Organizations, to a Regional Fire Authority - I embrace alternative platforms, including Mac's.
The USB bus specification specifies a maximum length -I'm sorry you disagree with it. I've been there with "active extensions". Unlike you, I can't use solutions that are outside sound engineering principles - I'm sorry your offended by that. Again there are solid alternatives.....
This really has nothing to do with "pushing the artistic envelope" - I'm suprised it's being couched in those terms....
Craig: I guess what kinda blows me away is whenever I talk to *anyone* that is having connectivity issues, my first suggestion is to "replace the cable" - thats all I and several others here are doing, in any case - keep up the great work!
take care - John
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Ummm, I'm the last guy who would ever be accused of being a mac-fan. I'm a Windows guy. That said, I'm agnostic as I work with Macs every day as well, and I've used a multitude of operating systems dating back to my first personal computer usage in 1981.
But feel free to label me :-) Labelling John as a mac-fan is also amusing.
I've never once said that the Mac in question didn't have a problem, but I am highlighting the underlying issue.
Have a nice day.
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This really has nothing to do with "pushing the artistic envelope" - I'm suprised it's being couched in those terms....
Somehow I get the feeling this is one of those times we'd probably do a lot better talking in person.. it's hard to get 'everything' we think across in short written statements/messages. "Lost in Translation" happens in the same language as well..
It's just been my experience that pushing the envelope is a mindset.. those who like to 'go beyond' generally do so in most parts of their lives. If we're so concerned about living within specifications, which I'm sure is required for your profession and was required for my previous profession (for the most part), then we're not discovering or finding that which we normally would find. Thinking outside the box.. There are degrees, and exceptions, and this is only my observation.
With the topic at hand.. It seems obvious that 'despite' working outside specs, there is something with the two MBP's (previous generation) Craig had that wasn't the case with his PC machines or his new MBP's (new generation). Or any of the machines I use.. I also tether, but with 30 foot lengths.. I get mine at www.pccables.com and have for years. At PCcables (or any number of other places) you can get active kits up to 60 feet (http://www.pccables.com/cgi-bin/orders6.cgi?id=ID14985081&action=Search&search=USB_AMBM&sort=9) or more long. Heck, they even have a 150ft super booster. (curious if it works) That these products are marketed shows there is a demand.. or in other words people are using these lengths often enough to warrant the packaging vs. buying separate cables and putting them together. So in my mind, regardless of the specification, if it's possible to tether at 30-45-60 feet with one type of computer and not another, then I find this information valuable and useful for my needs.
Now.. if someone limits their tethering to 15 feet, and by doing this they limit their work flow possibilities, just because they opened the book and the book says the standard is rated to only 15 feet.. then this is their right. But if they could have benefited from tethering at 15-60 feet, then it's their loss. And if they had to compromise their photography because of this choice, then that's a loss too. This is where my mindset comment comes in. The person limiting themselves to 15 feet, and possibly limiting their photography because of it, "generally" makes this type of decision in most aspects of their work/life.
In my mind, the MBP is just one variable in the string of variables necessary to tether at 15-30 feet. If the MBP doesn't work, and every other PC/Mac tried does, then the odds are there is something 'different' about that machine which doesn't exist in the others. It might work "within spec", but if I tether then I want to know if it works significantly different enough from the average laptop to be at issue. In this respect its irrelevant if the workflow requires an out of spec component. and to me when someone says "well, you're working out of spec so what gives you the right to tell us about it?", then those who could use this information suffer for it.
Seriously, you don't find it interesting and valuable that a certain type of equipment won't work when most other types will? I do, and on some level perhaps many others do. So I ask myself what motivation someone would have to take this position, or chastise someone for sharing it, and without reaching too far.. I think of the Mac vs. PC rivalry. Just a guess, and I could be wrong.. but it's common enough of a mindset to not be reaching imo..
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No one chastised him. We pointed out that there was a specification limit that he was exceeding. He chose to get upset about it. /shrug
Trying things outside the box is great, but when it doesn't work, it's reasonable to check the boundaries of the box. If you understand that timing is the real issue (which just manifests in length) then there's some opportunity to understand why a particular device (the mac books in this case) might not be working when other devices are. It could be driver differences or chipset differences (that would be my guess, btw) and in knowing, for example, that it might be the chipset it could help you decide on other alternatives because not every single "pc" is going to work with this configuration.
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I'm not upset at all about Mac vs: Windows, where did you ever get that idea? Professionally, I design, maintain and service Active Directory based networks - specializing in Exchange, Database and Remote access via Terminal Services. I'm an Intel Channel partner and have been an active MSDN subscriber since the program's inception (1992). My clients range from multi-clinic Health Organizations, to a Regional Fire Authority - I embrace alternative platforms, including Mac's.
The USB bus specification specifies a maximum length -I'm sorry you disagree with it. I've been there with "active extensions". Unlike you, I can't use solutions that are outside sound engineering principles - I'm sorry your offended by that. Again there are solid alternatives.....
This really has nothing to do with "pushing the artistic envelope" - I'm suprised it's being couched in those terms....
Craig: I guess what kinda blows me away is whenever I talk to *anyone* that is having connectivity issues, my first suggestion is to "replace the cable" - thats all I and several others here are doing, in any case - keep up the great work!
take care - John
I don't "disagree" with the published specs. I simply pointed out, that for my uses, the active extension has worked perfectly for years, Until I tried it on the 2010 MBP. And I tried your suggestion, to 'change the cables' which also failed.
My conclusion was and still is that Apple broke the usb on that vintage of MBP. Not the first time Apple screwed up USB.
Anyways things are working as they should. I'm still quite disappointed with the hardware problems I've encountered with the MBP's that go well beyond the camera connection. That's another story.
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No one chastised him. We pointed out that there was a specification limit that he was exceeding. He chose to get upset about it. /shrug
Trying things outside the box is great, but when it doesn't work, it's reasonable to check the boundaries of the box. If you understand that timing is the real issue (which just manifests in length) then there's some opportunity to understand why a particular device (the mac books in this case) might not be working when other devices are. It could be driver differences or chipset differences (that would be my guess, btw) and in knowing, for example, that it might be the chipset it could help you decide on other alternatives because not every single "pc" is going to work with this configuration.
1. This goes back to my Lost in Translation comment. Looking at the responses I can certainly see how someone could feel chastised and even further, get a bit more than annoyed. Especially when you're talking about the subject in a forum which supposedly promotes such discussions. Perhaps the responses weren't intended this way, but it goes to show in this imperfect medium of the written word.. we need to exercise care to be adequately understood. We convey more than information, we also convey tone and attitude. I'm sure there are those who will say pot/kettle/black.. but it doesn't change what I said.
2. I tend to agree it's a chipset issue. And you're right, knowing it's a chipset issue can help. But we need to get there first, and Craig's post and his sharing of experiences is right there with the first steps.
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Steve: It took a bit of checking, but the Macbook 2010 and 2011 use the same Intel Series 3400 USB chipset.....
I largely agree with you regarding "pushing the envelope" in an artistic way - this particular issue is purely technical however. Honestly, dragging around a 45' cable with at least 4 flaky connectors is not my idea of enhancing my creativity - personally I'd go wireless.....
http://www.cablesunlimited.com/products/Prod_Individual3.aspx?groupcode=I4098
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Steve: It took a bit of checking, but the Macbook 2010 and 2011 use the same Intel Series 3400 USB chipset.....
I largely agree with you regarding "pushing the envelope" in an artistic way - this particular issue is purely technical however. Honestly, dragging around a 45' cable with at least 4 flaky connectors is not my idea of enhancing my creativity - personally I'd go wireless.....
http://www.cablesunlimited.com/products/Prod_Individual3.aspx?groupcode=I4098
Now I'm getting really curious.. if not the chipset then the BIOS or a driver maybe? It would be interesting to know.
Sure, cables can be inconvenient and sometimes even dangerous. Wireless, imo, is always better provided it works as fast and with the same level of reliability. But I find this level of wireless expensive. And in the case of the unit you linked it's limited to a 30 foot max.. which side of the 30 foot range it operates on under different conditions is an unknown. Have you used this one, and do you have any idea of it's actual range and speed? These devices just keep getting better and better, but as you probably know wireless device output power is perhaps the most significant limiting variable and the FCC allowed levels in the frequency range haven't increased since the band was established and I doubt it ever will. Increasing power results in a host of other issues such as cross-band interference, power supplies must be larger, more heat, etc.. so I'd guess it will be small tweaks with technology resulting in small performance gains, vs. a significant increase in power for real speed/range changes. The same reason in-home wifi range hasn't grown by much over the years if anything, though we have seen different schemes result in faster speeds.
I keep hoping for an effective wireless solution for my HDTV too..
Speaking of wifi. With all the wifi technology out there, all the devices, etc.. I still find regular LAN cables the fastest (by far) and more reliable (how much varies), and they have the best range. A PIA for sure, but once in place there's nothing better. I'm moving from Thailand to the USA and a new home this week.. already bought the home.. and researched quite a bit trying to find a wireless solution that could handle blue-ray level data streams.. I didn't find anything so it looks like I'll be making and running cables.
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As much as it is a pain, hard cables are still the best solution for that kind of bandwidth, Steve - totally agree.
It is interesting that the chipsets are the same. It would be interesting to sample a larger number of the offending 2010 MBPs to see if the problem was consistent.
Concerning interpretation of messages in forums? Yes, that's true, but I think it all comes back to the old Fidonet (for those who remember that) rule (perhaps even axiomatic?) of, "Don't be excessively annoying. Don't be excessively annoyed."
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Steve: It took a bit of checking, but the Macbook 2010 and 2011 use the same Intel Series 3400 USB chipset.....
I largely agree with you regarding "pushing the envelope" in an artistic way - this particular issue is purely technical however. Honestly, dragging around a 45' cable with at least 4 flaky connectors is not my idea of enhancing my creativity - personally I'd go wireless.....
http://www.cablesunlimited.com/products/Prod_Individual3.aspx?groupcode=I4098
It not a 'pain' at all. On a GOOD day I might make 5 or 6 images from the same product. Cables (USB and extended shutter release) only get moved once or twice. BTW the 60 foot of shutter release is for using mirror lockup. Neither EOS capture nor DSLR remote allow MLU.
Wireless. Well I work mostly in factories and my computer is outside of a 30-40 foot boat or a large RV and the camera is deep inside.
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/infocusinc/craigboat1-1.jpg)
I'm not sure wifi would be a good fit. Maybe or maybe not. The long cables have worked flawlessly for years now. In fact I'm still using the same set of cable I first bought right after the intro of the 1DSMKIII. Never touched the backup set. Ever. Now I have TWO sets of backup.
Is this a creative issue? Of course! For example its pretty hard to be creative when you are stuck on a scissor lift 25 feet in the air and the stylist and AD are down on the ground at the monitor. Makes collaboration kinda difficult. Now mount that camera on the lift after correctly framing, measure the exact height, and come on down. Now the cables make the creativity happen since you can interact at the monitor.
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/infocusinc/276cc.jpg)
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/infocusinc/rinker250_026.jpg)
Same thing inside a boat or in an RV...
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/infocusinc/350_07_salon.jpg)
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/infocusinc/Cameo37re3_frint.jpg)
I NEED pixel level registration from bracketed exposures. I NEED reliable connectivity. I NEED easily available and cost effective replacements. All of these are creative needs not technical.
In fact I really don't care a hoot for specs. I'm an artist not an IT guy, even though I play one. I want to plug my camera in and have it send data to my computer. If something works for years over a broad range of systems, in my book its a reliable system. I'm really quite impatient when things don't work. Even more so when they have worked so well in the past.
Until I bought my first new Mac (since a very old and used crt Imac) everything always worked flawlessly, specs be damned. And that's all I want (and have now). Something that works so I can create.
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*crickets*
;)
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Curious as to just what it is you are trying to hook up? By 'same hardware I've used for years', are you refering to parallel/serial?
I've got a lovely IBM R52 I'll trade you for the MBP.
Now HP selecting USB 3.0:
http://www.macworld.com/article/159906/2011/05/thunderbolt_usb.html
The first months of Thunderbolt are predictably tough. :-(
Cheers,
Bernard
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agreed! Asus has first copies of Intel's x68 chipset available - no thunderbolt :( I'm waiting on Intel's "reference" implementation (foxconn) - presumably next fall when 22nm Ivy Bridge ships....
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More USB 3.0 news...
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1105/11051905lexarreader.asp
Cheers,
Bernard
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http://www.anandtech.com/show/4406/correction-ivy-bridge-and-thunderbolt-featured-not-integrated
So so news about thunderbolt... it will in the end not be integrated in the Ivy Bridge while USB3.0 will be.
This should end this conversation for good, we have a new firewire. >:(
Cheers,
Bernard
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I am willing to make a bet on that one :-)
USB 3.x will be ubiquitous, 3-4 years after it was announced, as the el-cheapo connection. It will, of course, perform well below spec, but that will be enough for a lot of daily things. But that certainly doesn't mean lightpeak will not be used... The developer's kit should be available this quarter. You can't expect peripherals to precede development kits....
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USB 3.x will be ubiquitous, 3-4 years after it was announced, as the el-cheapo connection. It will, of course, perform well below spec, but that will be enough for a lot of daily things. But that certainly doesn't mean lightpeak will not be used... The developer's kit should be available this quarter. You can't expect peripherals to precede development kits....
I agree. USB is cheaper to implement, and mass-market PCs depend on low-cost components to have any chance in the eternal race to the bottom.
BUT, USB is still CPU-dependent as far as I know, and will be handily eclipsed in speed by TB; Mac folks who need it will use it, along with USB adapters (on the other end of the chain) for lesser peripherals if/when USB support is removed from Macs. And PC folks who need it will be able to buy motherboards/computers with TB. The situation will resemble the USB/FireWire competition (with the addition of SATA of course).
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Just a note... No mechanical hard drive comes close to being able to use the bandwidth provided by USB 3.0 or TB, so the speed will be the same with both interfaces, and SATA III for that matter. It's a different story for the fastest SSDs, but these are typically not used for storing large amounts of data (yet) anyway, so it doesn't make much difference at the moment.
If you look at the data rates, only the burst rates (which involve small amounts of data directly from cache) come close to maxing out SATA III. For the transfer of large amounts of data, which is where this really matters, the sustained data rates of SATA III mechanical hard drives don't even max out SATA II bandwidths.
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Promise Raid Pegasus R6 test.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4489/promise-pegasus-r6-mac-thunderbolt-review
Performance is.... well... interesting.
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Heres's a real world implementation - replacing a Mac Pro.....
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/new-thunderbolt-raid-imac-lessons-learned/1444?tag=content;selector-blogs
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The beginning of the end to Thunderbolt? (rhetorical question, I know it's too early to say) Link.. (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=22614)
Report: Apple Preparing to Finally Catch up With PCs by Adding USB 3.0
Jason Mick (Blog) - September 2, 2011 4:40 PM
A publication claims that USB 3.0 could at last hit Macs.
The addition would allow Apple customers to ditch their $50 premium cables -- and, more importantly, gain access to many more peripherals. (Source: iFixIt)
Move could alleviate Apple owners' woes of limited peripheral selection
These days USB 3.0, an extra-speedy connectivity technology is supported by an increasing number of peripherals like external hard drives or thumb drives. And it's become quite mainstream in the PC market, even showing up in mid-range models like the Micro-Star International Comp., Ltd.'s (TPE:2377) $700 MSI FX603 notebook.
But customers of Apple Inc. (AAPL) -- the third largest computer-maker in the U.S. -- are willing to settle for paying as much $3,000 or more for some high end "fully loaded" notebooks or $5,000 on some desktops without a scrap of USB 3.0 support.
Ex-CEO Steve Jobs claimed customers didn't care about USB 3.0 and it wasn't time for them to be allowed to get it, anyways. Apple instead offers customers Thunderbolt, an early copper-based implementation of Intel Corp.'s (INTC) upcoming fiber-optic "LightPeak" technology.
LightPeak offers 20 Gbit/s bidirectional data transmission versus up to 5 Gbit/s with USB 3.0. While that sounds like a favorable trade, one relatively minor downside to this arrangement is that Apple customers have to pony up a whopping $50 USD per cable, thanks to the slew of microchips inside the complicated design. Further, while an extra $50 on a $5000 computer may not seem that bad, the lack of selection in terms of ThunderBolt peripherals offers a far more pressing issue for Apple computer users.
Now with a new CEO at the head of Apple the rumor has popped up yet again that the company will finally catch up to PCs in hardware by offering its customers USB 3.0.
VR-Zone writes, "A lot of people have been disappointed over Apple's lack of interest in the USB 3.0 standard, but thanks to a little bird, VR-Zone has heard that the company is still looking at USB 3.0 as a potential feature to add on future products. As to when and how this might happen is not something we know, but from our understanding it'll happen before Intel integrates USB 3.0 support into its chipsets."
The important word in that comment is "before". Intel is supposed to drop in support for the USB 3.0 standard in its Ivy Bridge CPU series, which will launch in 2012. If VR-Zone's source is correct Apple could be preparing to deliver USB 3.0 slightly ahead of schedule in late 2011.
If Apple does that it'd probably have to go with a third party chip to add compatibility to its stock Intel chipset. That wouldn't be the first time Apple has done this -- its a well known secret that back in 2010 it hacked at the stock chipsets to allow graphics switching (similar to Optimus) between the integrated GPU in the Intel CPU core and the dedicated onboard NVIDIA Corp. (NVDA) GeForce GPU.
Hopefully the rumors are true, after all, from our perspective there's little excuse to be peddling a $5,000 computer that lacks USB 3.0 support found in $700 Windows PCs.
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By TEAMSWITCHER on 9/2/2011 8:20:31 PM , Rating: 1
USB 3 can't can't drive a external display but Thunderbolt can and much, much, more. Thunderbolt is a versatile docking solution for Apple laptops, and that was really the point of it. The new Apple Thunderbolt displays have a MagSafe power plug and a Thunderbolt cable. It charges your MacBook, is a port replicator, and external 27" IPS display all at the same time. Thunderbolt is more expensive to implement than USB 3 but not more difficult - any device that can connect to a PCI Express bus can connect to Thunderbolt, it's already compatible with existing technologies, even USB 3. I sure hope PC manufacturers don't dismiss Thunderbolt to save a few dollars on their designs, it's fantastic technology that when mature could lead to exciting new computer designs. USB 3 is just a faster USB port, it is useful, but isn't the game changer Thunderbolt is.
From the story cited in the last post
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By TEAMSWITCHER on 9/2/2011 8:20:31 PM , Rating: 1
USB 3 can't can't drive a external display but Thunderbolt can and much, much, more. Thunderbolt is a versatile docking solution for Apple laptops, and that was really the point of it. The new Apple Thunderbolt displays have a MagSafe power plug and a Thunderbolt cable. It charges your MacBook, is a port replicator, and external 27" IPS display all at the same time. Thunderbolt is more expensive to implement than USB 3 but not more difficult - any device that can connect to a PCI Express bus can connect to Thunderbolt, it's already compatible with existing technologies, even USB 3. I sure hope PC manufacturers don't dismiss Thunderbolt to save a few dollars on their designs, it's fantastic technology that when mature could lead to exciting new computer designs. USB 3 is just a faster USB port, it is useful, but isn't the game changer Thunderbolt is.
From the story cited in the last post
Hmm..
1. Wait a minute.. the first three pages of this thread were spent telling us Thunderbolt was made by Intel and therefore was designed for all PC's..
2. So does a 98 cent extension cord..
3. Thinking back to all the discussions I've had about computers.. and I've never, not once, heard someone say "I really need a super magsafe power handling superspeed interface.." But what I've heard a million times is "I wish they could speed up USB.."
Seriously, an HDMI cable isn't convenient already? Will incorporating the power into the cable really make a significant difference? It sounds nice, but it's no big leap because we already have HDMI, DP, DVI, doing the job. Thunderbolt won't give us better or even faster monitors. It could, but it won't because no one needs them.
A 20gbps interface is great, but why pay $50 for a 20gbps cable when a $1 5gbps cable is available and already maxes out any storage device currently made or even announced? What peripheral do we need, or even want, that requires more than 5gbps? Sure, there are some exotic RAID SSD's like the Revo3x2's out there, but that's a very niche market.. Such devices are far from being mainstream.
I don't use Mac's (yet, thinking about it though), but I'd be really pissed to buy a $3000 MBP and not have USB3 available. USB3 devices are just now coming on line in force, and I suspect soon any device which can take advantage of USB3 speeds will come with one.. because the USB3 port and cables add a dollar to the cost of a PC and not $50.. Did you see the picture at that link of the thunderbolt cable's circuitry exposed? Just the site of it makes me think of unreliable and incompatible cables..
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I repeat [sigh]:
I agree. USB is cheaper to implement, and mass-market PCs depend on low-cost components to have any chance in the eternal race to the bottom.
BUT, USB is still CPU-dependent as far as I know, and will be handily eclipsed in speed by TB; Mac folks who need it will use it, along with USB adapters (on the other end of the chain) for lesser peripherals if/when USB support is removed from Macs. And PC folks who need it will be able to buy motherboards/computers with TB. The situation will resemble the USB/FireWire competition (with the addition of SATA of course).
Carping on the cost of a cable by folks from one of the wealthiest nations provides a dissonance that I find incongruous.
If you [cf. anybody] want to use USB3 and its peripherals, do so.
If you [cf. anybody] want to use Thunderbolt, likewise do so.
Simple as that.
To channel Bette Midler channelling Sophie Tucker, “USB3 goes into Thunderbolt a hell of a lot better than Thunderbolt goes into USB3”.
Thunderbolt has a number of advantages over USB3, already elucidated, with two disadvantages, present implementation cost and limited availability of devices and adapters. Costs will come down over time, and the range of compatible hardware will improve. USB will still be USB, an older host-based technology that has improved with improvements.
If users don’t edit much HD video, don’t require the fastest available scratch disks for editing large digital camera files, and don’t use external HDDs as boot disks, including computers operating in Target Disk mode, then USB3 will be quite adequate for them.
Horses for courses …
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I repeat [sigh]:
Carping on the cost of a cable by folks from one of the wealthiest nations provides a dissonance that I find incongruous.
If users don’t edit much HD video, don’t require the fastest available scratch disks for editing large digital camera files, and don’t use external HDDs as boot disks, including computers operating in Target Disk mode, then USB3 will be quite adequate for them.
Horses for courses …
1. Watch the flies..
2. You're really going to pull that "wealthiest nation" argument? Really? I've heard that somewhere before.. Ah yes, every time they want to raise our taxes. $50 a CABLE.. not to mention interfaces on the devices. You really don't see a problem with that from a manufacturing and marketing standpoint? I'm sure the price will go way down when/if thunderbolt will go mainstream, but even costing 2-3x as much as USB is a huge problem.
3. What are some of these "fastest available" devices you're referring to? And we are talking external devices right? Who's using external boot and scratch disks on their laptops? And of those, who's using devices that exceed USB 3.0 speeds?
Look, I'm not saying that 'some day' there won't be such devices. Maybe even as soon as 2-3 years down the road. But 2-3 years down the road most everyone worried about having the fastest devices will also be worried about having the fastest PC.. which means the current crop of MBP's with Thunderbolt will go on the used market never once using Thunderbolt. Meanwhile, we have many USB 3.0 choices you can order from Newegg or Amazon this evening if you'd like. Unfortunately those of you with the latest MBP's.. well.. you can't use them. Your fastest external storage devices are USB 2.0. Where's the utility in that?
You've gotta wonder, in that same 2-3 years will Intel find an even faster interface than Thunderbolt that doesn't require $50 cables?
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Steve: If you look at the Promise Thunderbolt Cabinet's performance, offering SAS performance, using it for swap and scratch actually makes a lot of sense.
I don't see Thunderbolt / USB3.0 competing, anymore than I see SATA or SAS competing - sure there's overlap - choices are *good*.....
Whats frustrating (to me anyway) is the lack of information coming out on the Intel/PC side. I now understand that up until July, Apple had exclusive control of the "Thunderbolt" moniker - they have now relinquished that to Intel. I still hope for Thunderbolt I/O on the upcoming socket 2011 offerings (obviously it will be on the Mac Pro)
The cables are expensive precisely because they offer so much bandwidth (they are actually active). SAS cables are about the same cost. Remember that Thunderbolt is simply a copper implementation of Intel's LightPeek technology; there is nothing preventing future optical implementations, which would drive cabling costs down. In any case the "heavy lifting" of defining the bus has already been accomplished and exists in available hardware.
Consider an I7 powered MacBook Pro, a Promise Cabinet populated with 6 spindles - 2 in RAID-0 for swap/working, the other 3-4 in RAID-5/10 for storage. Now, lets add a Black Magic Design UltraStudio 3D for Video Capture/Playback*. A formidable Portable Video Edit Suite.
*BMD does offer a similar USB 3.0 device - similar specs, but not enough bandwidth available for direct HDMI capture
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Steve: If you look at the Promise Thunderbolt Cabinet's performance, offering SAS performance, using it for swap and scratch actually makes a lot of sense.
I don't see Thunderbolt / USB3.0 competing, anymore than I see SATA or SAS competing - sure there's overlap - choices are *good*.....
Whats frustrating (to me anyway) is the lack of information coming out on the Intel/PC side. I now understand that up until July, Apple had exclusive control of the "Thunderbolt" moniker - they have now relinquished that to Intel. I still hope for Thunderbolt I/O on the upcoming socket 2011 offerings (obviously it will be on the Mac Pro)
The cables are expensive precisely because they offer so much bandwidth (they are actually active). SAS cables are about the same cost. Remember that Thunderbolt is simply a copper implementation of Intel's LightPeek technology; there is nothing preventing future optical implementations, which would drive cabling costs down. In any case the "heavy lifting" of defining the bus has already been accomplished and exists in available hardware.
Consider an I7 powered MacBook Pro, a Promise Cabinet populated with 6 spindles - 2 in RAID-0 for swap/working, the other 3-4 in RAID-5/10 for storage. Now, lets add a Black Magic Design UltraStudio 3D for Video Capture/Playback*. A formidable Portable Video Edit Suite.
*BMD does offer a similar USB 3.0 device - similar specs, but not enough bandwidth available for direct HDMI capture
You make good points, and you came up with an actual device which would benefit from thunderbolt. Most people can't. They're just buying the line that thunderbolt is necessary and an alternative to USB3.0 and that they'll need it for their single drive external.
Here's the thing. USB3.0 is what the masses will use. Devices are already out supporting USB3.0. Thunderbolt is what the specialist will use and there will be very few of them willing to spend on the fastest RAID's. I see Apple as including Thunderbolt and not USB3.0 as a huge mistake and a disservice to Mac customers. Apparently I'm not the only one.
If they included both, which the post I linked suggested is a possibility for the future, I never would have blinked an eye. But they didn't, they're trying to promote an expensive interface 2-3% will use (I think I'm being generous with 2-3%) at the expense of a much cheaper interface 60-70% (of computer buyers) will use. To me this is just wrong, wrong from a business standpoint, and wrong from a people standpoint.
And sure, they do overlap but they're not exclusive. Your example of SATA vs. SAS is excellent. Imagine if a computer maker didn't make SATA available and instead only equipped their computers with SAS interfaces? This is essentially what Apple has done.
And where are you buying your SAS cables? I'll sell you all the $40 SAS cables you want.. :)
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The lack of USB3.0 support on Mac is simply inexcusable. That is plain common sense since it is totally obvious that USB3.0 is the next mainstream interface.
This doesn't have anything to do with Thunderbolt, nor with the respective value of these I/F.
Cheers,
Bernard
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The lack of USB3.0 support on Mac is simply inexcusable. That is plain common sense since it is totally obvious that USB3.0 is the next mainstream interface.
This doesn't have anything to do with Thunderbolt, nor with the respective value of these I/F.
Cheers,
Bernard
1. Agreed.
2. It does if Apple intentionally deleted USB3.0 to promote Thunderpants. I think Apple in its quest to promote itself as the high-tech company of the future decided to promote Thunderpants, but knew it wouldn't gain traction if their users had access to the far more mainstream USB3.0, so they decided to delete USB3.0 from their specs.
You and John have made the good and obvious point, there is room for both Thunderpants and USB3.0 in the PC and Mac market. I do think the demographics are different though. PC users who would value a feature such as Thunderpants tend to use desktops more than Mac users who tend to use the power MBP's for more power intensive applications when they can, because the Mac Pro's are both limited in choice and rather pricey. So, we'll see Thunderpants as a motherboard option in the PC market, and perhaps on some of the higher end laptops such as the Lenovo W series and Dell Precision Mobile Workstations. Apple will over them in both.
I really do hope we see Thunderpants in the PC market, the sooner the better. And I hope peripheral manufacturers market the higher end devices USB3.0 would struggle to support. The more the better. And the more, the less expensive the technology becomes to us all. But I think Apple committed an egregious sin by deleting USB3.0 from their MBP's in favor of Thunderpants.
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It's going PC now...interesting choice of connector...
http://techcrunch.com/2011/05/17/sony-bringing-thunderbolt-to-notebooks-with-usb-style-connector/
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It's going PC now...interesting choice of connector...
http://techcrunch.com/2011/05/17/sony-bringing-thunderbolt-to-notebooks-with-usb-style-connector/
Maybe.. loved this line of your link:
"It’s all speculation for now, unless of course a few other companies show off some USB-style Thunderbolt ports, in which case it’s all confirmed and Apple is in the minority. A"
This wouldn't surprise me at all. It takes Sony to make it practical and USB3.0 to prop it up.
John came up with a super expensive RAID as an example of a device that (barely) surpasses USB3.0 speeds and can benefit from Thunderpants. What other devices are we looking at that you guys think will actually reach the market in the next five years?
Whatever happened to Apple's fiber optic storage devices that costs 20x more than their competition? Anyone using one? Now here's a device which has actually been available through Apple for a few years now (and isn't a 5 year down the road promise).. who has one? I know they must have sold some, but even my most wealthy client who does things like buy a P45 system and sells it a few months later because it's too heavy, told me these devices weren't cost effective.
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Actually, if you look at capabilities of the Promise Pegasus - it's not really that bad. The example I gave includes *2* arrays in a single cabinet, combined worst case total I/O (as measured in Anandtech's review) would come to around 13Gbs....
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is TB is full duplex; supporting simultaneous Input/Output data transfer (ie: combined 40Gbs). USB only supports single channel I/O Correction, USB 3.0 is full duplex
Again, choices are good!
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I have just installed a new system around the fastest MBP with 16gb. ram and a 480gb g6 ssd and a Promise Pegasus 6 bay thunderbolt raid - wow... it's fast - serious fast! it's not a step in storage evolution it's a leap....
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Yeah, I was demoed one: amazing stuff. One always thinks "the end of local storage" in those cases. And I own USB3 devices. Well, it's definitely faster than USB2 ;-0 - but so is eSata for local backup purposes on a small enclosure. Still, I don't doubt it will become mainstream, if only because it's cheaper and compatible with what the general market expects.
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Actually, if you look at capabilities of the Promise Pegasus - it's not really that bad. The example I gave includes *2* arrays in a single cabinet, combined worst case total I/O (as measured in Anandtech's review) would come to around 13Gbs....
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is TB is full duplex; supporting simultaneous Input/Output data transfer (ie: combined 40Gbs). USB only supports single channel I/O Correction, USB 3.0 is full duplex
Again, choices are good!
Populated with platters it's actually not a bad price at all. And I'll keep my issues with the longevity and support with Promise RAID cards out of this. But where it really reaches it's performance peak which makes it significantly faster than USB3.0 is when populated with SSD's.. and then it gets very pricey. It's a storage solution, so I'll assume the lowest capacity SSD you'd put in there is a 1tb, maybe a 480gb? With current prices you're looking at >$18,000 for SSD's and $999 for the enclosure, for 4tb of RAIDed (10, I find 5 way too risky) storage. So.. $19,000. Will anybody but high end govt and corp supported workstations do this? I doubt many, and at the govt/corp level they wouldn't be doing it with a laptop.. they'd be doing it with a desktop. Build a XL-ATX station with 6 PCIe ports, add 6 Revodrives.. and now you'll have far superior performance. What I'm saying, is by the time we spend for the performance, other options at this price point become more practical.
I'm currently wrestling with the purchase of a Synology 2411+ But not until they equip it with at least USB3, esata, or even thunderbolt. After paying $1800 for 12 3tb platters and $1600 for the case, I'm now at 36tb, or 30tb in RAID 10? And it's not sitting 2 meters away from me shackled by a TB cable. It's tucked back in my office and provides 200mbps (give or take depending on file type) where anyone on my LAN can get at it.. Expensive for an individual user, but actually cheap for a small business with multiple users who needs fast storage. Sure, I could populate it via LAN.. but it now comes with 4 USB2.0 ports you can plug in to. I'd like to see those be four USB3.0 ports, I can imagine it in the middle of a big table at some group workshops being very useful, though I doubt I'd bother. This is very fast storage, much more economical, and any of the current speedy interfaces will work great.
I guess I'm not quite getting the point of using your laptop as a workstation.. where you're plugged into external monitors, storage arrays, etc. Add a small fast desktop stuffed in a Lian-li PC354 case and you've got a more capable solution. Equip it with a Revo3 x2 and 24tb of platters and you have a box marginally larger than this Pegasus storage solution, with more storage, faster performance, but now it's an entire system without the laptop.
All off subject to a degree so I apologize for that, but it illustrates that the PC platform with it's nearly infinite choice of build components continues to provide more economical and ultimately practical solutions. Sure, if I must live with a MBP then a high end storage solution becomes necessary.. but I'm not locked into a MBP.
There's no doubt Thunderbolt is a technically superior interface. But USB3.0 is here now and coming on-line very fast, and it provides all the performance the vast majority of us require. I hope to see TB as an option on future motherboard products and built into storage solutions, but without major intervention from the PC manufacturers I see it going the way of FW800, Mac fiber optic arrays, Expressport, the dodo bird, and every other technically superior interface which wasn't embraced by the PC manufacturers and subsequently the market. Isn't it ironic, that the success of your high end Mac products is so closely (near totally) linked to the success of PC products? Mac needs PC to survive and flourish, but PC would do just fine without Mac..
The last few paragraphs of the AndN review on the Pegasus:
"I also have concerns about cable costs and widespread adoption. For Thunderbolt to really take off we need to see tons of products that support it. Intel's Thunderbolt controller IC can't be cheap, so I am curious to find out if more companies will give Thunderbolt a try. I believe cable costs can be prohibitive, but today device costs are the bigger concern.
Intel already announced that we'd see Thunderbolt support in Ivy Bridge designs next year so it may be at least one more year before we see just how much market potential Thunderbolt has. While I'm happy that Apple is championing the standard, Thunderbolt really needs widespread industry support to make an impact."
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I have just installed a new system around the fastest MBP with 16gb. ram and a 480gb g6 ssd and a Promise Pegasus 6 bay thunderbolt raid - wow... it's fast - serious fast! it's not a step in storage evolution it's a leap....
I have been using a Raid5 SCSI320 unit as my main storage for more than 3 years.
Thunderbolt is still faster, but I wouldn't describe it as a revolution from a performance standpoint. It is however a lot more convenient to have this level of performance without having to install a costly SCSI card that often has driver problems when Apple upgrade the OS.
So thunderbolt is making high performance easy to access/maintain, that's its main value in my book.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Other brands are starting to enter the TB market.
http://tinyurl.com/3uprkhh
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I have been using a Raid5 SCSI320 unit as my main storage for more than 3 years.
Thunderbolt is still faster, but I wouldn't describe it as a revolution from a performance standpoint. It is however a lot more convenient to have this level of performance without having to install a costly SCSI card that often has driver problems when Apple upgrade the OS.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard, the OP was/is using a MacBook Pro. No SCSI. You are commenting from a desktop viewpoint and adammork is using a laptop. Apples and oranges.
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More thunderbolt adoption momemtum news, this time on the Windows PC front: http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/240013/acer_asus_to_bring_intels_thunderbolt_speed_technology_to_windows_pcs.html
"A Windows PC with Thunderbolt technology was demonstrated onstage during a keynote address by Mooly Eden, Intel's general manager of the PC client group, at the Intel Developer Forum being held in San Francisco. Solid-state drives from Intel were connected to the PC and transferred four uncompressed videos at 700 megabytes per second.
Thunderbolt has been viewed as an alternative to USB 3.0, but as the technology was exclusively on Macs, only a few peripherals such as storage drives supported the interconnect. The adoption of Thunderbolt by device makers could grow when Acer and Asus adopt the technology in PCs. "
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I have been using a Raid5 SCSI320 unit as my main storage for more than 3 years.
Thunderbolt is still faster, but I wouldn't describe it as a revolution from a performance standpoint. It is however a lot more convenient to have this level of performance without having to install a costly SCSI card that often has driver problems when Apple upgrade the OS.
So thunderbolt is making high performance easy to access/maintain, that's its main value in my book.
Cheers,
Bernard
It's important to distinguish between the technologies:
USBx: Requires an O/S level device driver, optimized for synchronous I/O (USB 3 - full duplex), works great with block devices (disks).
eSata: Also requires O/S driver - most implementations are backward compatible with IDE. It's important to note that unlike SCSI, SAS or Fiber Channel - the controller is actually on the drive itself - thats why you only get 2 devices / channel.
SCSI/SAS/FC: Uses a dedicated controller supporting multiple devices per channel - Bus Mastering allows for traffic management / priority.
Thunderbolt: PCIe bus - plain and simple - no O/S driver (OK, brutally oversimplified*). Why is the Promise Cabinet mentioned a bit pricey? Because it contains the equivalent of a SAS RAID controller within the device.
* You can plug pretty much any device into a PCIe bus - a video card would, of course, require it's own driver to be usefull, as well as a SAS controller, but the distinction here is that the bus itself is transparent.
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It's going PC now...interesting choice of connector...
http://techcrunch.com/2011/05/17/sony-bringing-thunderbolt-to-notebooks-with-usb-style-connector/
If you think about it, this is not a good move; Sony has form in this area (iLink).