Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: myc5 on February 10, 2011, 10:33:45 pm
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Anyone know where to buy paper in Toronto other than Vistek or Henrys? There's gotta be some other places.
How about online website, but canadian.
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http://www.ccbc-club.com/
Try this place.
Paul
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Don't discout http://www.bhphotovideo.com/ Depending on what you are looking for it may end up being cheaper buying from them. The shipping deal they have with Purolator now is awesome. Even before it was worth it for me to buy a few 44" rolls of Hahnemuhle stuff from them, pay the crazy UPS fees than to buy from Vistek.
The other option is to go to a website like www.shopbot.ca search by the manufacturer number for the product you are looking for and go from there.
Or try www.ca.buy.com again use the manufacturer number as you will never find it otherwise. Usually Vistek has the the manufacturer number listed on their prouct pages.
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There is a place just North of the old Lu-La Gallery on Carlaw whose prices I have always found to be excellent. They carry Epson & Hahnemuhle
Tricera Imaging (http://www.tricera.com/Home/)
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CCBC and Tricera are roughly competitive, but they carry some different lines so it is worth checking both. I've never seen any advantage after shipping and brokerage importing paper from B&H. Unlike Tricera, prices at CCBC go down over time the more you buy. They keep track of your cumulated expenditures with them and as your category increases you get incremental discounts. Moderate but useful - it adds-up. Vistek is actually quite competitive on Canson papers - the prices have come down a lot since they were first introduced, and stock seems to be good any time I've looked it up. Unfortunately, the distribution arrangement for Ilford in Canada leaves something to be desired and there are spotty stocking problems for certain of their products. When buying paper, it's not only price, but availability which we need to take into account.
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Tricera has no prices on its website? And closed on Saturdays?
Vistek has about the broadest selection in the city. Their inventory is the problem. They're often out of things (not just paper) and their inventory tracking system is basically manual. If something shows as in stock on the computer and isn't on the store shelf, they still have to call the warehouse and have someone manually verify it's actually there. And that can take more time than it should because I've been told that products aren't labelled in the warehouse so the workers have to look through however many different packages to try to find something. If they stumble upon it quickly you'll get a quick response. If they don't........ you'll wait for a while. Further, if an online order is placed, the item won't be removed from the computer inventory when the order is placed but when it actually ships so you'll sometimes get buggered because something that shows as in stock is actually on hold to be shipped for an online or telephone order. It can be frustrating.
There's Downtown Camera but they're not overly good.
Ordering paper from the U.S. rarely makes sense because it's just not expensive enough and the price differentials aren't high enough as Mark points out. When something is on sale for a really good price, then it can make a difference (i.e., prices a few months ago on Exhibition Fiber definitely made it worthwhile). Or if you're ordering in significant enough volume it can be worthwhile.
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Let's debate who carries papers and where to buy them !
Vistek currently has a sale on EPson paper. BUy 3 and get one additional one free. It's only advertised on the store shelf. If it's not on the shelf, they get for you from the warehouse. Im talking Toronto, there are other Visteks you know!
Henry's has limited selection and likes selling their 'henry's' brand. who really makes it ?
Downtown camera is nice but not for paper. I saw their shelf stock. Very very very old.
B&H. Best price even with shipping and handling to CDN. Not for all papers though. So check it first. For Ilford Gold Fibre silk, the price is significantly cheaper through B&H as compared to Vistek. Most worth it to buy at B&H. I did a price check and it would cost me $40 more to buy at Vistek. Forget it. That is what I call gauging! On the other hand, it's not worth it for EEF for example. Just double check to see what papers are cheaper and compare. I did. Hahanemuhle, is also cheaper at B&H , shipped etc etc from B&H.
Sometimes Epson send an email for specials such as buy one get another for free just recently. I got glossy and semi gloss. The art paper was not on sale though.
Canson has a very very cheap rebate on. Mail in to the USA for $5. Barely worth it.
I have never seen Hahnemuhle in sale.
Oh, Vistek does sometimes have a warehouse sale. That's where you get buy one get one free. I think Hahnemuyle was on sale at that time, but only certain stock.
Just keep checking and buy when the sale is on, it happens frequently so stock up a bit. you can always get a better deal some time.
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Just because you don't happen to agree with somoene, Peter doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about.
Something being currently on sale is nice but that's not really an indication of breadth of product and continuing availability.
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Luckily, we can edit ;D
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I can buy paper directly from Amplis photo, but that's because I have a business running giclee prints for photographers. If you have a business registered you might be able to buy from them too. Be warned, customer service is not their strong suit.
They carry Breathing Color, Hahnemuhle and Ilford.
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Also interested in where to get ink at a good price.
Carey
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Also interested in where to get ink at a good price.
Carey
CCBC - again, you get the cumulative discount the more you buy there.
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Thanks everyone for the tips.
I found and someone mentioned it also, Epson Canada has a Signature Worthy paper promo happening til end of March. Buy 3 boxes from the list and get the least expensive one back as a rebate. Seems to be only the new papers though. Still not a bad deal.
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I am a big fan of Tricera, they can drop ship out of Vancouver and I can pick it up at the airport that afternoon. Since I am far from the mainstream I am a huge fan of customer service, Tricera has it in spades in my experience. I also buy from Amplis but as mentioned earlier customer service is not their strong suite but they are the dealer for Ilford in Canada. You need to be very specific with them or a back order can be costly, eg $140 for a roll of Galerie Gold but add on a hundred bucks for shipping it gets expensive. They are also the Canadian distributor for Breathing Color so you need to go to them for those materials. If you are looking for another distributor for Stick & Stretch and Stick & Stretch Pro All Graphic Supplies out of Calgary also carried that in Canada. Vistek I find is the same as Amplis, outside sales and poor customer service, I purchased my 9880 from them before I knew better. Hope this helps.
Mark Prins
Inanda Images
Whitehorse YT
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I can buy paper directly from Amplis photo, but that's because I have a business running giclee prints for photographers. If you have a business registered you might be able to buy from them too. Be warned, customer service is not their strong suit.
They carry Breathing Color, Hahnemuhle and Ilford.
Yes, and it is unfortunate that Ilford has given them an exclusive distributorship, because their stocking practices leave something to be desired.
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PRICE CHECK:
Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 8.5 X 11 50 sheets
B&H including shipping, all taxes, duties and handling = $48.77
Vistek including all taxes = $71
Amplis including all taxes = $74
Where are you going to buy from ? To the OP..don't buy from Toronto.
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"Where are you going to buy from ?"
I just know somebody is going to say "I want to support Canadian business" ;D
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Yes lets support the limited Canadian market gougers ! Don't forget, they are buying this stuff from the states too.
So long as the dollar is equal to US dollar, it's worth buying in the US.
I totally support Canadian business. I buy from my food local farmers markets. But buying from photography stores so that they can continue to make a great big profit ? NOT. Welcome to free market economy and competition ..finally.
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PRICE CHECK:
Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 8.5 X 11 50 sheets
B&H including shipping, all taxes, duties and handling = $48.77
Vistek including all taxes = $71
Amplis including all taxes = $74
Where are you going to buy from ? To the OP..don't buy from Toronto.
That's a sample of one. Interestingly enough, you can't generalize because the equation keeps changing. Do the same thing for 13*19, or for a role of 17"*40'. Or compare Canson Bartya Photographique at Vistek with Ilford Gold Fibre Silk (so similar you'd almost think they are made in the same plant, but they aren't) at Vistek compared with CCBC, compared with B&H and you'll get differing comparative outcomes.
Another factor you need to keep in mind with paper is shipping risk. As soon as a box of paper gets bumped at the corner it's worthless and needs to be returned - a real nuisance. Buy it personally in situ and you can check for damage before you leave the shop.
We do need to be aware that volume in the Canadian market is a fraction of that in the US market; however, I'm not one to argue this justifies a huge margin of price difference, but it may well justify some, unless the manufacturers cross-subsidize the distributors for the comparatively higher per unit cost of doing business here.
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Oh - I forgot - that 50 sheet pack of 8.5*11 Gold Fibre Silk you checked is $47.91 at CCBC right here in downtown Toronto. After HST it's about six dollars more than the landed tax paid B&H price - only if you ship with Purolator - and less of a difference once you've accumulated discount privileges there.
And if you are going to make sensible comparisons, it's better to be realistic - would you really ship only one box of paper from B&H? Buying more saves shipping per box. If I were doing it, which I wouldn't at these differentials, I'd buy at least enough boxes till shipping per box is at a minimum; and since my passport once disappeared for a couple of days from Purolator's tracking system, I'd probably opt for UPS or FedEx.
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if you increase the number of boxes of paper you are going to buy, then it's still cheaper at B&H. With the dollar = US dollar there should be no excuses. Don't forget that the Canadian stores are buying this stuff from the USA and adding a nice profit on it payed for by you and me.
This has nothing to do with supporting Canadian stores. I don't mind supporting Canadian stores who dont gouge. They need to be considerate and bring to prices in line.
CCBC might be worth checking out, but it's still more expensive. Over time, it adds up.
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if you increase the number of boxes of paper you are going to buy, then it's still cheaper at B&H. With the dollar = US dollar there should be no excuses. Don't forget that the Canadian stores are buying this stuff from the USA and adding a nice profit on it payed for by you and me.
This has nothing to do with supporting Canadian stores. I don't mind supporting Canadian stores who dont gouge. They need to be considerate and bring to prices in line.
CCBC might be worth checking out, but it's still more expensive. Over time, it adds up.
Are you certain of your facts that Canadian stores are buying from the USA? Ilford is a Swiss company which manufactures GFS in Germany and Canson is a French company which manufactures Baryta Photographique in France. Vistek is the Canadian distributor for Canson. Did you ask them whether they import it from France or the USA and at what price? Amplis is the Canadian distributor for IGFS. Did you ask them whether they bring it in from Europe or the USA? Do you really know much about how the manufacturers price the stuff to the distributors, the distributors price it to the retailers and the retailers to us? I'd be surprised. But for us, the bottom line is how much we need to pay for it, what's the shipping risk, and what's worthwhile doing all things considered, including perhaps SOME consideration to the value of our local retail outlets surviving, just for the service we get - not only for papers, but a host of other things too, where on-the-spot personal rapport matters.
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To sum it up... It pays to shop around.
Sometimes B&H works for me. Sometimes Vistek (rarely). Sometimes The Camera Store works.
For Epson canvas and Luster I usually order from whatever computer drop shipper offers the best price.
I usually buy several rolls at once so paying for shipping costs still results in a cheaper final price than buying from one of the local stores.
Unless of course I have a rush order and haven't minded my stock. Then I pay through the nose to get what I need.
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Are you certain of your facts that Canadian stores are buying from the USA? Ilford is a Swiss company which manufactures GFS in Germany and Canson is a French company which manufactures Baryta Photographique in France. Vistek is the Canadian distributor for Canson. Did you ask them whether they import it from France or the USA and at what price? Amplis is the Canadian distributor for IGFS. Did you ask them whether they bring it in from Europe or the USA? Do you really know much about how the manufacturers price the stuff to the distributors, the distributors price it to the retailers and the retailers to us? I'd be surprised. But for us, the bottom line is how much we need to pay for it, what's the shipping risk, and what's worthwhile doing all things considered, including perhaps SOME consideration to the value of our local retail outlets surviving, just for the service we get - not only for papers, but a host of other things too, where on-the-spot personal rapport matters.
I dont give a darn who is the distributor. That's really their problem not mine. They can make up whatever story they want to try to convince you that they are not gouging you. Same thing happened with books remember?
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Books is a whole other talk-show. Amazon.com fixed that mess.
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If it's as much of a hassle for you guys to buy paper as it is for me, let the manufacturers know. If enough of us Canadians complain the manufacturers may consider adding more distributors. More distributors means more competition and better pricing... or better service at least.
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Also interested in where to get ink at a good price.
Carey
Tiger Direct has pretty good pricing on ink if you set up a business account.
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I've found many Canadian stores are very willing to price match B&H...just have to ask. They truly want your business and if you are willing to bring your business to them, they are very willing to make deals for you.
I've shopped Canadian for the majority of my printer supplies and have made out costing less than what I could have bought it from the US. B&H is the easy solution...until a shipping problem occurs and then the couple bucks saved does not seem worth it at all.
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I have dealt with many of the paper resellers mentioned already; Camera Store (Calgary), Tricera, CCBC and Vistek. I have also dealt with Amplis but not for paper.
From a service standpoint there is no question in my mind that Bradley at CCBC will give you the best service and the best price if he has, or can get stock. He has gone out of his way to get me product; inks, ink heads and paper in rush-service situations. I can't say enough about the place.
Though Vistek gets a lot of criticism for customer service and pricing issues, I have found them to be pretty good with respect to stock and pricing. Given what they offer overall I think they do a great job and maintain their place at the top of the supply chain in Toronto in many respects. Without them and a few others I'd be unable to properly run my business. I know from personal experience the cost differences in running a business both sides of the border, I'm fine if they charge a bit more for some products it's worth it to me.
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I always thought prices on just about everything were more in Canada because of the taxes, not higher store profits? Am I wrong? My cousins live in Ottawa (I was there for Canada Day July 1st) and it seemed like everything was more expensive there than the states, but I saw what I was paying in taxes there and it was a huge difference. However, don't they add a custom tax to your purchase from the states?
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Canada is switching over to an all enclusive tax / VAT called the HST. It's one tax. Even if I buy from the USA, I still have to pay it.
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Not quite. Only some provinces have the HST. Ontario is one and, along with BC, the newest.
Prior to the HST, if you lived in Ontario, you still had to pay GST on imported goods and in some cases PST as well. Or at least you were supposed to. Sometimes things would slip through without the tax.
Taxes alone are most definitely not the reason for the difference in prices. Taxes are excised at the time of purchase; not included in shelf pricing. Much international trade is now without duties so that doesn't play into the equation really to any extent today.
In some cases, prices are higher here simply due to volume. Not even Vistek or Henrys can approach the sales and ordering volume of a B&H or Adorama or other large U.S. outlets. Lower volume means lower volume discounts and higher end prices to customers.
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Businesses get the HST/GST back when they remit, so they do not really pay it in the end.
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Part of the reason why we pay higher taxes is due to things already mentioned like demand and purchasing power. However another big reason is a fancy economic term called price stickiness. Companies are quick to adjust prices upwards due to changes in exchange rates but are a heck of a lot slower in reducing them back down.
Remember when it cost $1.50 CDN to buy $1 US? Back then a lot more goods reflected purchasing power parity, that is when exchange rates were accounted for the price of the item was roughly the same. We just got used to paying higher costs for the most part. You also see this mentioned a lot when oil prices fall and we still are paying higher gas prices. Oil companies like to say that we are still paying for the old gas produced at the higher prices but I bet there is an artificial lag in the change in prices.
You also see a spike in Canadians buying vehicles from the US when our dollar strengthens. It was so bad a few years ago a few of the manufacturers started to prohibit their US dealers from selling to Canadians or refusing to perform warranties.
Canon lens prices from time to time have been out of sync to varying degrees between Canada and the US. Sometimes it makes sense to buy from a US retailer and other times not.
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Ihave to admit I have noticed in the last 6 months or so that there are some lenses and equipment on sale in Canada listed cheaper than the USA price.
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You folks in Toronto have more options than I do.Living in Sudbury Ontario we only have Henry's.I order all of my printing paper from mail order.I like using the Moab Somerset Museum Rag.Vistek is the only place in Ontario I can find it.
I came across this price for Museum Rag in the US,does anyone know of this company.I called and a salesperson quoted me 106.00 but I referred him to the website and he comfirmed that price.Makes me a little leery.
http://www.atlex.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=I98-SMR300131925
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I was really hoping this wouldn't degrade into a discussion of economics. Having published numerous articles over the years dealing with economics in professional publications (not photography publications, obviously) in a former life it's often sad when I see people start trying to address the subject.
WRT prices being higher when the exchange rate was weaker, keep in mind that prices are set for products months in advance. Look at what happened when the exchange rate strengthened and people were up in arms because book prices were way out of sync. Businesses (producers) can, if they desire, make special pricing adjustments through rebates or credits to retailers which they can demand retailers pass on to customers but if this doesn't happen then there's nothing the retailer or consumer can do. The retailer can decide to lower its profit margins but isn't compelled to do so. The business cycle, unfortunately, doesn't react as quickly as the markets can. Further, to suggest that prices were about right when the CAD was at $1.50 is flat out incorrect (see below paragraph on PPP). I've saved literally thousands of dollars over the years buying bodies, lenses and other sundry gear (less on bodies, more on lenses) from the U.S. when the CAD was weaker and that's after factoring in exchange rate differences, shipping costs and taxes.
PPP really doesn't play a part either. PPP theory is based on a basket of common goods that are traded and consumed by a broad sector of a population across countries. PPP theory doesn't necessarily hold for highly specialised goods which photography gear would be considered as. There's also no set definition of what the 'basket' of goods should be so PPP is nothing more than an estimate rather than a hard and fast number. Additionally, PPP is a long term indicator and is not intended to be used as an indicator for shorter term fluctuations and volatility. When we talk 'long term' in economics, we're talking about 15, 20 or more years. There are also two forms of PPP; absolute and relative. Absolute PPP deals with absolute price differences. Relative PPP deals with inflation and rates of change of prices.
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I was just checking and Atlex does not ship to international spots. So buy from B&H. When you add it to your cart, you will see the new reduced price of $72 which would be the same as ATlex anyways.
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http://www.atlex.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=I98-SMR300131925
Atlex is a reputable company, I've purchased from them several times. Other good sources in the US are Shades of Paper, ITsupplies, and ColorHQ.
Personally I'm buying lately from Shades of Paper due to their excellent customer service. You have to call for pricing though, their website doesn't list the best they can do.
Neil
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I just purchased Moab Somerset Museum Rag from B&H.It was listed at 96.00 but when I clipped on lower price It said 72.00.I went to check out and selected Purolator for 11.00 and I good go no further as I was told to choose another method which was 32.00.I called them and placed my order for 11.00 shipping.
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Yes Ken the last time I purchased from them the shipping selector gets stuck. Took me a long time before it went through properly.
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Let us know how that works out. I've never use Purolator from the US to Canada. Sometime (and UPS is one offender, particularly for their cheapest options) a shipper quotes one price and they end up adding a bunch of brokerage fees to the price.
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Ill answer your Q right now Tim. i bought ink and a reflector kit from B&H. Although the shipping calculator seemed to take multiple tries it finally gave me a total. A couple of days later I got my items. I did not pay a cent more. What was on the web invoice was exactly what I payed. Purolator is just fine.
JUST KEEP IN MIND that B&H web site is in USA dollars. So as long as the looney is = or > than the USA dollar, you should be fine.
one more thing: credits cards charge a currency change fee usually about 2 - 3 %. So you have to add this to your bill. You can find credit cards that don't charge this extra fee. Keep this in mind too.
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Up where I am the order starts out UPS and I get it through Purolator
When I got my invoice through email they had the wrong paper.So I had to call them back and tell them.They are even having problems with the shipping.The shipping was even a couple dollars cheaper on the invoice than what was quoted on the internet.
They canceled my order and were to get back to me with the correct order when the shipping problem was solved.
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I was really hoping this wouldn't degrade into a discussion of economics. Having published numerous articles over the years dealing with economics in professional publications (not photography publications, obviously) in a former life it's often sad when I see people start trying to address the subject.
WRT prices being higher when the exchange rate was weaker, keep in mind that prices are set for products months in advance. Look at what happened when the exchange rate strengthened and people were up in arms because book prices were way out of sync. Businesses (producers) can, if they desire, make special pricing adjustments through rebates or credits to retailers which they can demand retailers pass on to customers but if this doesn't happen then there's nothing the retailer or consumer can do. The retailer can decide to lower its profit margins but isn't compelled to do so. The business cycle, unfortunately, doesn't react as quickly as the markets can. Further, to suggest that prices were about right when the CAD was at $1.50 is flat out incorrect (see below paragraph on PPP). I've saved literally thousands of dollars over the years buying bodies, lenses and other sundry gear (less on bodies, more on lenses) from the U.S. when the CAD was weaker and that's after factoring in exchange rate differences, shipping costs and taxes.
PPP really doesn't play a part either. PPP theory is based on a basket of common goods that are traded and consumed by a broad sector of a population across countries. PPP theory doesn't necessarily hold for highly specialised goods which photography gear would be considered as. There's also no set definition of what the 'basket' of goods should be so PPP is nothing more than an estimate rather than a hard and fast number. Additionally, PPP is a long term indicator and is not intended to be used as an indicator for shorter term fluctuations and volatility. When we talk 'long term' in economics, we're talking about 15, 20 or more years. There are also two forms of PPP; absolute and relative. Absolute PPP deals with absolute price differences. Relative PPP deals with inflation and rates of change of prices.
I wouldn't call it sad Bob. Though I knew someone would call me out on PPP. Yes I made some generalizations however you'll note that I did not specify camera goods but rather goods in general. My main point was price stickiness which you address as well. Manufactures are under no obligation to lower prices and they will hold out as long as possible. The consumer of course is under no obligation to purchase goods in his home country and often will search out the best price.
Also I didn't mean to suggest that prices were correct when the exchange rate was $1.50, merely explaining that the price difference on lots of goods could be explained by the different currency values at that time. A little harder to justify price differences on a lot of products in the current environment.
I worked as a Financial Analyst for a number of years doing planning and forecasting for a bank and while exchange rates and cross border shopping were not in my direct line of work I did keep abreast of the topic.
I'm too lazy to look up and data (and I don't really have access to it anymore) but I do recall reading a study suggesting that we are lazy as consumers wrt pricing differences.
At times I think economics is more art than science. I think the weatherman has a better chance at forecasting success than an economist. I used to hate when people ran around calling one of my financial models "Mike's model". I didn't want the praise went it was working great and I sure didn't want the heat when it wasn't.
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Let us know how that works out. I've never use Purolator from the US to Canada. Sometime (and UPS is one offender, particularly for their cheapest options) a shipper quotes one price and they end up adding a bunch of brokerage fees to the price.
Tim, what's going on here with UPS is quite straightforward. If you select UPS Ground from the USA, the shipping rate is low, but they add about 40 dollars in brokerage to get the stuff out of customs. Outrageous of course, but that's it. One of the real partly non-governmental barriers to "free trade". If you select UPS 2nd day air or any service that is not Ground, the rates are higher, the brokerage is included. So you simply need to compare for each shipment and see what works best.
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You folks in Toronto have more options than I do.Living in Sudbury Ontario we only have Henry's.I order all of my printing paper from mail order.I like using the Moab Somerset Museum Rag.Vistek is the only place in Ontario I can find it.
I came across this price for Museum Rag in the US,does anyone know of this company.I called and a salesperson quoted me 106.00 but I referred him to the website and he comfirmed that price.Makes me a little leery.
http://www.atlex.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=I98-SMR300131925
You can buy on-line from most of the Toronto outlets being discussed here, but will pay shipping to Sudbury.
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I ended up ordering from B&h.The Somerset Museum Rag was 73.00.The shipping by Purolator Post was 10.00.
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I'm too lazy to look up and data (and I don't really have access to it anymore) but I do recall reading a study suggesting that we are lazy as consumers wrt pricing differences.
At times I think economics is more art than science.
Economics is both.
And as consumers, when it matters, we SHOULD NOT be lazy researching price differences. A necessary condition for sustaining open market competition is informed consumers. Canadian consumers can often leverage their knowledge of cheaper and accessible foreign pricing to influence pricing in this country.