Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Radu Arama on February 07, 2011, 05:37:13 pm
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http://www.pentaximaging.com/camera-lenses/smc_PENTAX_D_FA_645_25mm_F4_AL_%28IF%29_SDM_AW/
All Weather finish (withstands any amount of rain for any amount of time), SDM - Supersonic Drive Motor, Aero Bright (nano)Coating, 9 rounded aperture blades, 0.4 meters minimum focus distance, 90 mm diameter x 140 mm lenght, 1070 grams, integrated lens hood, optimized for digital cameras (equals 19.5 mm lens on a 36x24 mm camera) but covers the entire 645 image circle (usable as a manual focus on Pentax 645 film cameras where it equals a 14 15.5 mm lens on a 36x24 mm camera.
Price at the Pentax's webstore is 4999 USD.
Radu
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Sorry if I'm being thick, but where do you see the price? If it's what you report, that's a seriously problem. I can get Leica glass for that kind of money.
- N.
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Sorry if I'm being thick, but where do you see the price? If it's what you report, that's a seriously problem. I can get Leica glass for that kind of money.
- N.
Here's the price Nick: http://www.dpreview.com/news/1102/11020716pentax645d25mm.asp
Apparently Hoya intends to charge Leica prices without Leica quality control.
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Three official example images:
http://www.pentax.jp/japan/products/645d/ex.html#mw-fa645_f4al-if-sdm-aw
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Wow... That's pretty spendy for Pentax glass...
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Apparently Hoya intends to charge Leica prices without Leica quality control.
If I may, what is that comment based on? Do you have any evidence of deficient quality control with this lens?
Besides, that is the price of a standard lens on the Leica S2 Range, I don't believe they have a 20mm equivalent lens covering full 645 format. How much is the widest of the S2 lenses?
Cheers,
Bernard
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@ Bernard,
Actually does not that comment have some relevenece... since that price actually makes it more expensive than Mamiya 28mm which covers 645 FF?? Assumably the Pentax 25mm only covers the cropped sensor... or they better make adapters for also Phase/Mamiya and Hassy! Likewise it seems the price of the 25mm is not balanced to the price of the 645 camera, does it not?
Regards
Anders
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I got it!
That great price for the body is just bait&switch :'(
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This sounds like another example of the "give 'em the razor, sell 'em the blades" approach to marketing. That said, I'd probably be willing to spend that much for a 25mm lens that works on my Contax 645, as the lack of a lens wider than 35mm is the only shortcoming it has for my purposes, so I'm not actually complaining about the lens' price per se, just that it seems out of whack vis-a-vis the price for the body...
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Sorry if I'm being thick, but where do you see the price? If it's what you report, that's a seriously problem. I can get Leica glass for that kind of money.
- N.
Sorry for not providing the link to the Pentax webstore it was very late in Europe when I posted the news: http://www.pentaxwebstore.com/detail/PTX+26360 this is the list price for the US but in Japan the lens is quoted at 398K Yen as list and 10-15% less as the street price: http://www.yodobashi.com/ec/product/100000001001335060/index.html. As of today 360K Yen means less than 4400 USD. The Mamiya 28 is quoted at the same store (an expensive one in general) to 500K Yen list.
The will be 400 made per month according to Pentax.jp and compared with the initial 500 D FA 55/2.8 production IMO that signify a very high expected demand especially considering the price tag. Maybe most of the initial batch of lenses will remain in Japan?
Radu
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@ Bernard,
Actually does not that comment have some relevenece... since that price actually makes it more expensive than Mamiya 28mm which covers 645 FF?? Assumably the Pentax 25mm only covers the cropped sensor... or they better make adapters for also Phase/Mamiya and Hassy! Likewise it seems the price of the 25mm is not balanced to the price of the 645 camera, does it not?
Regards
Anders
Hi Anders,
It seems that my original post was not clear enough: this lens covers the entire 645 image circle and can be used on Pentax 645 film cameras. It is quite obvious that Pentax will put larger sensors in the 645D family and this lens is both backwards compatible with the old film cameras (except for the autofocus) and future proof for the next digital cameras.
Radu
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If I may, what is that comment based on? Do you have any evidence of deficient quality control with this lens?
Besides, that is the price of a standard lens on the Leica S2 Range, I don't believe they have a 20mm equivalent lens covering full 645 format. How much is the widest of the S2 lenses?
Cheers,
Bernard
Speculative on my part I must admit, but not without some evidence. The DFA 55mm has been reported to be less than stellar by Lloyd Chambers and others (hazy, not sharp in the corners). Quality control issues are a common complaint for Pentax’s 35mm offerings. Pentax is hardly unique among manufacturers in that regard; however, the one exception might be Leica, somewhat justifying the premium price.
Nonetheless, the 645D is a great camera especially based on its price/performance ratio. If the cost of the 25mm is factored in, the ratio becomes less attractive. In short, the lens price is disproportionate to the rest of the system.
Traditional users of Pentax are, shall I say, frugal; this price arrives like a whack across the knuckles :(
Regards,
Tom
AFAIK, 35mm is the widest S2 lens, at $6500; it is f/2.5 however. The standard 70mm f/2.5 is $5000.
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Hi Anders,
It seems that my original post was not clear enough: this lens covers the entire 645 image circle and can be used on Pentax 645 film cameras. It is quite obvious that Pentax will put larger sensors in the 645D family and this lens is both backwards compatible with the old film cameras (except for the autofocus) and future proof for the next digital cameras.
Radu
Radu,
Interesting. 25mm on 645 IS VERY wide. Not quite as wide the the 23mm Rodenstock @ 6,700 USD without helical focus ring and mount, but very wide. Too bad they did not put a manual aperture ring on it. Since without that it will be pretty useless on any other camera such as Mamiya/Phase and Hassy where it could have found customers...
OR... is that an aperture ring?????????
Regards
Anders
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Radu,
Interesting. 25mm on 645 IS VERY wide. Not quite as wide the the 23mm Rodenstock @ 6,700 USD without helical focus ring and mount, but very wide. Too bad they did not put a manual aperture ring on it. Since without that it will be pretty useless on any other camera such as Mamiya/Phase and Hassy where it could have found customers...
OR... is that an aperture ring?????????
Regards
Anders
Hi Anders,
I doubt that Pentax targets the users of other systems as buyers of Pentax lenses to mount on other cameras. If they would put an aperture ring on this lens the price and complexity will unnecessarily increase (one more thing to weather proof). But one can experiment with such a lens on full 645 image circle by buying a 645n2 camera in excellent condition for under 1000 USD in general and use the lens in full except AF.
About the price I think that Pentax feels like this lens is state of the art for its category and the quality and performance must be paid accordingly. Unlike other designs the internal filter is not only very small in diameter hence of important difference in price but also a presumably very good C-PL is included in the package. Add a 82 mm high performance C-PL filter to the package and the price will increase. Last but not least the inflated US price is influenced by the (bad) policy of Pentax USA to sell the 645D related gear only thru four outfits and at full list price. In Japan and EU the competition will lower the price of this lens from the get go.
Regards,
Radu
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Nonetheless, the 645D is a great camera especially based on its price/performance ratio. If the cost of the 25mm is factored in, the ratio becomes less attractive. In short, the lens price is disproportionate to the rest of the system.
Traditional users of Pentax are, shall I say, frugal; this price arrives like a whack across the knuckles :(
I'm not too sure that a 25mm lens for 4k is that expensive, but I've been pricing cinema lenses which make everything short of the Mars Rover look cheap.
Regardless . . .
You kind of get the feeling that Pentax needs a slap up side the head to realize they have a 90% there solution for medium format stills.
Kind of like Canon putting live view in their 5d2, then realizing that it was the video wonder of the planet and selling 80 trillion of them, just think what Pentax could do if they had a real tethering option and a full set of lenses.
All those card carrying 5d2 photographers looking for an entry level medium format camera would probably beat their door down. Once they started selling, then off they go into rental which always increases the value of a system.
If it had cmos and live view AND video, whew!
IMO
BC
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Here's the price Nick: http://www.dpreview.com/news/1102/11020716pentax645d25mm.asp
Apparently Hoya intends to charge Leica prices without Leica quality control.
leica hasn't had first run quality control since since they stopped making the M6. M7 had bad electronics, which were improved in time for the M8. The M8 was a beta test resulting in the M8.2 and the M9, which seem reasonable. I've sent every piece of Leica gear, aside from my M4P and M6 and my 30 year old lenses, back to Leica. New Elmarit and 35 cron, my M8, all back to leica on multiple occasions. My Japanese stuff? Only after hard and extensive use have I sent Mamiya, Nikon or Canon gear for repair. I suspect that Hoya's QC will be better than Leica's, at least on a first production run.
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Can't say I'm impressed by those sample images as they shot ALLOT of CA and smearing at f11...but this could be down to early prototypes + poor processing
Yair (who was burnt with this sort of thing before...)
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Can't say I'm impressed by those sample images as they shot ALLOT of CA and smearing at f11...but this could be down to early prototypes + poor processing
Yair (who was burnt with this sort of thing before...)
1) Out of the camera jpegs;
2) Two of them have a funky in camera processing profile (bright and reversal);
3) Camera has 1.01 firmware which means that it doesn't support lens correction for the new lens;
In April when the lens will become available I recommend www.ganref.jp for proper samples.
Regards,
Radu
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You kind of get the feeling that Pentax needs a slap up side the head to realize they have a 90% there solution for medium format stills.
;D Same thing for not putting aperture ring on it and providing an adapter ring for Phase/Mamiya and Hassy V&H. It is wider than any of those offer! :o
Regards
Anders
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Did anyone else notice that there is an arrow printed on the lens indicating which end is the front? I guess it really is aimed at the amateur market!
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Did anyone else notice that there is an arrow printed on the lens indicating which end is the front? I guess it really is aimed at the amateur market!
That's the direction of the filter-tray.
;)
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Wow... That's pretty spendy for Pentax glass...
I not saying that is not expensive, just that I don't understand why people find it to be. The 28mm f4.0 from hasselblad cost US $4395.
Looks comparable. I understand that the hasselblad has the central shutter. I insist that I am not disagreeing, I just want to understand why you guys find it expensive
Thanks
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To me, this pricing, if it holds in the North American market, is a really disappointing development. The lens looks great, is ground-breaking in the MF lens field, and will produce good images no doubt.
However, the value proposition of the 645D is precisely that: a value proposition. The camera is lovely, but if I'm paying the top dollar, I would expect the top system.
Perhaps I am wrong and rich amateurs will take to this lens in numbers. But, as someone who is reasonably well-off, I would never spend this kind of coin for a specialty lens.
In most fields, the top of the market prospers, the bottom end lines prosper too, and the middle gets squeezed. It does seems that very few in this industry spend much time thinking about general business trends and principles, or perhaps are too trapped by their business models to do otherwise.
- N.
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(http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dcw/docs/425/947/012.jpg)
Source: dc.watch.impress.co.jp
Radu
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;D Same thing for not putting aperture ring on it and providing an adapter ring for Phase/Mamiya and Hassy V&H. It is wider than any of those offer! :o
Regards
Anders
No point in an adapter ring for the Hassy V. As is, Pentax 645 glass cannot reach infinity focus on the V cameras, and an adapter ring would only make it worse. You would have to really like wideangle macro shots to make it worthwhile :D. Not sure about the Hassy H's registration distance. But anyway, how would you shutter the H's and the 500-series V's?
OTOH there is 7.5mm of space for an adapter to Phase/Mamiya 645. That would have been possible.
I generally decry the trend towards aperture mechanisms which can only be operated by the native camera body. It's why I don't buy more 645 AF lenses, and prefer the manual M645 ones if the same spec is available; so I can use them on a FF DSLR etc.
Ray
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The price is what it is. I would imagine that anyone who has bought into the Pentax system and needs the 25mm lens will buy it. What's the alternative other than moving on?
one alternative is to bitch
about it in a public forum ... :D
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I share Nick’s disappointment with the price. When it was announced, I assumed I would purchase one, but at 5k, not a chance. The price is way out of line with pricing in Pentax’s previous 645 offerings.
Although some have noted the price is comparable to the cost of other MF wide lenses, this is a different situation. The other manufacturers have a clear commitment to their systems and a purchaser has access to accessories and lenses and can reasonably assume further development of the system. Hoya’s on-again off-again approach to the 645D does not inspire confidence that there will ever be a 645D2. Lenses for the camera must come from the purchaser’s existing stock or be found in the classifieds or garage sales. There is currently precisely one lens available for the camera. Pentax USA has indicated no plans for importation of existing FA lenses into the US. It’s a great camera at a great price, but buying this camera is frankly, a gamble and the price of that lens makes the bet too large.
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Can't believe the responses to this post. Pentax delivers the widest MF wide angle out there, at a price that is half of the future 30mm Flektogon for the Hy6 and still less than most of its competitors. Admitted, the 55mm has been a flop, but most of the recent Pentax MF creations have been stellar and surpassed its competition: the 35mm AL, the 120mm macro, the 300mm, 400mm. Also the older 600mm is a true gem. The new 25mm is a full-frame. None of the others matches that. It's likely to be spectacular, even though that remains to be seen. I wonder what people expect from Pentax: higher quality and lower price? At this point, I can't see anybody investing into the Pentax system could be disappointed. A wonderful body, a top sensor, and a dozen stellar Pentax lenses available on the used market. And a recent history of Pentax investing into top quality (e.g. K5, limited lenses). Admitted: 5K is a huge chunk, but in comparison I find it more than reasonable.
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25mm on MF is a great option .. I think it will tempt landscape photographers away from their 5D2's etc .. definitely I will think of it after I read Llyod Chambers review when he gets around to it.
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Can't believe the responses to this post. Pentax delivers the widest MF wide angle out there, at a price that is half of the future 30mm Flektogon for the Hy6 and still less than most of its competitors.
Same here.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Pentax delivers the widest MF wide angle out there...
Actually this wideness is already available for medium format - and much wider. Since the 645D is an cropped chip SLR-only body which can't go on a tech camera which severely limits the options and quality for very wide-angle and wide tilt/shift lenses.
As a comparison point the following focal lengths would be equal:
P65+ with a 29mm lens*
P25+ with a 27mm lens
645D with a 24mm lens
P65+ with a 23mm lens**
645D with a 18mm lens
P65+ with a 17mm lens***
645D with a 14mm lens
*Phase One 28mm D
**Very Good Rodenstock lens available on a tech camera such as an Arca Swiss RM3D
***Decent Canon TS lens available through the Hartblei tech camera
All that said, huge kudos for releasing a rectilinear autofocus 24mm lens that covers 645 format. That really is a stunning achievement.
It will be interesting to see what corner performance it is able to achieve at the corners of a 645 frame - any ideas on how we could test that on a small-micron digital 645 sensor (which will be very different than film)? I guess maybe the Hartblei camera with a Pentax-to-Canon adapter. You'd have to use the drop-the-battery-while-DOF-Preview-is-activated to stop the lens down though as there would be no electronic aperture control
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
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Can't say I'm impressed by those sample images as they shot ALLOT of CA and smearing at f11...but this could be down to early prototypes + poor processing
Yair (who was burnt with this sort of thing before...)
To be fair the Phase One 28mm D shows a decent amount of smear and CA at the far frame edge on a P65+ sensor, which is roughly the same FOV as a 24mm on a 645D when viewing the image with lens corrections off.
So as you said it's only fair to wait for a final shipping version.
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Same here.
Cheers,
Bernard
Good glass is expensive. Actually still photographers have gotten off cheap for a long time (except Leica still photographers), but even exotic Canon and Nikon lenses cost a lot in relation to their user base. Obviously they sell more, the price goes down, etc. etc. Plus Nikon and Canon can sell a lost leader to make their brand more enticing to the consumer, but that's the issue, they're selling to "consumers".
I really wish we'd get past this cheap equipment thing.
Sure like everyone, I don't want to spend just to spend and I want more options with professional equipment, but professional systems should be expensive . . . that's why they're professional.
I know it's becoming a 5d2 world but Jezz that's such of lump of plastic. I know it does a lot, I know it's a good price, but I love dedicated equipment that has a professional purpose and I can prove it because I had two Canon 50mm 1.4's and one Nikon 28mm lense that met their final resting place in the middle of some field, 30 yards "away" from my set.
IMO
BC
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I share Nick’s disappointment with the price. When it was announced, I assumed I would purchase one, but at 5k, not a chance. The price is way out of line with pricing in Pentax’s previous 645 offerings.
Although some have noted the price is comparable to the cost of other MF wide lenses, this is a different situation. The other manufacturers have a clear commitment to their systems and a purchaser has access to accessories and lenses and can reasonably assume further development of the system. Hoya’s on-again off-again approach to the 645D does not inspire confidence that there will ever be a 645D2. Lenses for the camera must come from the purchaser’s existing stock or be found in the classifieds or garage sales. There is currently precisely one lens available for the camera. Pentax USA has indicated no plans for importation of existing FA lenses into the US. It’s a great camera at a great price, but buying this camera is frankly, a gamble and the price of that lens makes the bet too large.
Although nobody seems to care Pentax actually outlined the next three lenses within a three year planed schedule: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=51261.0 and this seems to me to guarantee that the current 645D will have either a successor, or a new "sister" or most likely both. About current lenses my take is that they expected that old stocks will last a lot more time but the camera seems such a hit in Japan that its success both postponed the launch in other markets and probably depleted that stock of "new/old" lenses. A cursory glance at a Japanese site returned no less than 37 outfits (from e-stores to magazine chains to Amazon.jp) that sell 645D camera and I assume most of them tried to also have whatever new lens they could get.
I feel that Pentax always targeted the first wave of 645D buyers from people with Pentax 645 film cameras and some lenses (and even hefty collections). There is also the 67 lens + adapter route if one is not concerned with AF. I think that Pentax will restart to mass produce a lot of FA 645 lenses and there are a lot of proven designs that seem to perform well on 645D and retail for less than 2000 Euro (120/4 Macro, 150/2.8, 200/4, 300/5.6, 35/3.5). The roadmap also suggests that neither of those will be replaced until 2015 so there is no need to wait and see. The same roadmap says that three zooms of about 7000 Euro worth will be replaced by two modern designs.
In the end while one's mileage may vary historically Pentax USA is the foster child of the Pentax family and their (once again) gross mistake in judging the demand on the US market will generate a lot of frustration.
Radu
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Can't believe the responses to this post. Pentax delivers the widest MF wide angle out there..................
I suspect most of the people aghast at the price have purchased, or intend to purchase, a 645D and have found the only wide angle lens available will set them back $5000. Others can be more philosophical about the cost. If there were other, less cutting-edge lenses available, the users of the 645D might be less concerned. Had Pentax introduced say a 30mm f/4.5 for $2000 prior to, or simultaneously with the 25mm, I don’t think you would hear the protests, rather the response might be: the 30mm is affordable and is fine for what I do, but I’m happy to see Pentax’s commitment to producing outstanding lenses.
IMHO
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Remember the old axiom, "it's not the camera it's the lens that counts". Duly noted.
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AFAIK, 35mm is the widest S2 lens, at $6500; it is f/2.5 however.
The next lenses to be released for the S2 (probably this year) will be a 30mm f/2.8 and a 24mm f/3.5, both rectilinear. Price and a specific release date has not been announced yet.
David
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It will be interesting to see what corner performance it is able to achieve at the corners of a 645 frame - any ideas on how we could test that on a small-micron digital 645 sensor (which will be very different than film)? I guess maybe the Hartblei camera with a Pentax-to-Canon adapter.
As I said above, there is enough space (7.5mm depth) for a simple adapter from Pentax 645 lenses to Phase/Mamiya 645 bodies. I am actually surprised that this has not been done yet - ebay has cheap adapters for just about all the other MF SLR brand lenses to Mamiya 645, and for Pentax 645 lenses to just about all 35mm DSLRs. It would be cool if our friends in China/HK perceived a market for this missing link, P645 -> M645...but the window might have passed, now that the 645D is out and P645 lens hoarders have the MF digital body that they were waiting and waiting for.
You'd have to use the drop-the-battery-while-DOF-Preview-is-activated to stop the lens down though as there would be no electronic aperture control
What a nuisance! This is precisely why I said "I generally decry the trend towards aperture mechanisms which can only be operated by the native camera body".
Hartblei did manage to emulate the Canon EOS electronic aperture control, but doing so for the P645 lenses is probably just too niche-y to be worth the candle...
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First detailed user review with samples made by our friend Hark Lee (hopefully he will post the same here):
http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-medium-format-645-6x7-645d/149579-pentax-d-fa-645-25mm-f-4-al-if-aw-review.html
It is important that there is no lens profile at this moment and the pictures reflect strictly the optical capabilities of this lens without much computer enhancements (well he used the generic CA removal plug in from PS).
Radu
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I know it's becoming a 5d2 world but Jezz that's such of lump of plastic. I know it does a lot, I know it's a good price, but I love dedicated equipment that has a professional purpose and I can prove it because I had two Canon 50mm 1.4's and one Nikon 28mm lense that met their final resting place in the middle of some field, 30 yards "away" from my set.
now that's speaking with some gusto! Bravo.
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Sorry if I'm being thick, but where do you see the price? If it's what you report, that's a seriously problem. I can get Leica glass for that kind of money.
- N.
The fact that it's a 25mm and covers the 645 format makes me believe that the price is indeed very good:
28mm Hasselblad : 4390 US$ (do not cover the circle, needs digital corrections)
28mm Phase one : 4490 US$
Leica don't have a truly equivalent lens since the 35mm is very fast, and far most expensive as expected from the aperture.
Sources:
http://www.calumetphoto.com/eng/product/phase_one_af_28mm_f_4_5_aspherical_lens/pe70240
http://www.calumetphoto.com/eng/product/hasselblad_hcd_28mm_f_4_lens/ha1209
Of course the Pentax is sold as a very low cost entry to the medium format word. So that hurts expectations.
Just my take
James